JRdd

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

Jndas; I don't get it.... Can't you at least give a reason why my post was deleted?

I don't know anything about this. If it was highly personal (as in private), I can understand why it was deleted. It's not right to talk about personal things about others in a public forum. It is our own choice how much we want to share of ourselves here, but it is unfair to share someone else's personal life here. Please forgive me if I shot short of the mark here, though.

JR

Originally posted by gHari:

Aptly named, our Theist has just struck the nail dead-center, upon the hearts and head of all devotees. This nonsense is now finished forever.

Right on.

JR

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

As I said previously Canyaka's words as good as scripture only subsided for a while. There are still some 'hangers-on-ers' who left Iskcon years ago yet still like to use those quotes as a way to dismiss and insult women. As could be expected, it ALWAYS turns people of who are new to Krishna Conscious philosophy, especially women.

 

HI, BV. Of course vanaca kalpa tarubhyas ca....I remember how harmonious temple life was, and how in the very rare moments of misunderstandings, one of the contestants would bow at the others' feet and offer this humble prayer. The other one would immediately melt to the ground too. No one had to say anything else on the matter; it was immediately no longer a source of contention for either devotee, and was also easily seen as just part of reacting under the modes of material nature.

 

It is scary that the negative attitude towards women still prevails in some transcendental aspirants. Just see how important our actions are, how their effects can be felt even decades later. We should be so responsible about this.

 

JR

 

 

 

Originally posted by raga:

According to Kapiladeva's Bhagavat Sankhya, intelligence has five prominent features, which are as follows (3.26.30):<blockquote><center>saMzayo ’tha viparyAso

nizcayaH smRtir eva ca

svApa ity ucyate buddher

lakSaNaM vRttitaH pRthak</center>

Doubt, misapprehension, correct apprehension, memory and sleep, as determined by their different functions, are said to be the distinct characteristics of intelligence.</blockquote>I would love to see an analysis of intelligence among men and women based on this definition of intelligence.

Interesting! I would love to see his comment on this verse. Is it available?

JR

Ram prabhu:

I read your last post (the one in which you most cleverly and amusingly analyzed the five signs of intelligence raga posted), and changed my mind about your intelligence. I think.

But I have a few comments or questions on this post....

Originally posted by ram:

But on a serious note, I think your points about the effects of not respecting women on the society are very valid. Humor in light vein may be fine. But there should not be any discriminatory treatment as it would affect the overall growth of the society.

 

 

There shouldn't be discriminatory treatment anyway. Not just to keep society going. It it simply ignorant, and of course ignorance opposes enlightenment. Discrimination and nondiscrimination have everything to do with the individual. Not just society, and organization. And if in our own personal lives, we can not appreciate those around us, and act with loving-kindness, but instead deride them, we are missing a great opportunity to grow spiritually. One should be very very concerned about his/her own spiritual advancement as expressed by his/her attitudes, thoughts, words, and behaviour.

 

Historically, ill-treatment of women is a medieval concept. I have heard from some one that during the Vedic times, even in the material sphere women were not given any secondary position.

 

I feel you are getting off the point here because you do not want to admit to intelligence in women. Ill-treatment of women is a side-issue, and a relevant one for sure, but it is the derogatory attitudes toward women (including refusal to acknowledge their intelligence, and/or engage them accordingly) is not only immature, but it causes the ill treatment you speak of. You are still not admitting to women's intelligence, here.

 

According to him, the Vedic times encouraged women to become doctors, engineers, poets etc.

 

According to who? I never heard this before. I do not mean to say this challengingly. I am interested.

 

Spritually, I heard that the women did not chant the Vedic hymns or gAyatri because the austerities undertaken to chant these mantras give so much potency that the chakras in their body cannot hold it without causing negative effect on their health or their foetus. (Chakras in women rotate in the oppsite direction). But they did get the benefit from their husband.

 

These days, neither those in male bodies nor those in female bodies have the ability to perform the austerities previously performed. And rare is the husband who will lead his wife spiritually. Srila Prabhupada encouraged a lot of friendship and mutual support in our relationships. With his excpetional perceptions, he was able to easily assess the conditions of his disciples, and instruct accordingly.

 

Personally, I adored following his instructions to serve the husband faithfully. A woman is naturally prone to be submissive, and likes when a man takes charge (not to control or manipulate), and protect her while he loves her. But we are not fanatics who adhere to a tenet at any cost, and if the man has not the qualities to perform his side of the deal with at least a certain amount of pure intentions, it just doesn't work. And it is truly heart-breaking and tragic. It upsets me when devotees spend time trying to defeat women's obvious intelligence, instead of looking within to see how they can contribute to world and universal and transcendental peace and love, both within and without, by adjusting their attitudes toward, and treatment of, others.

 

I do not believe this is possible, however, without acquiring transcendental vision, through vigorous chanting, for even respectfulness on a mundane level is sorely lacking all over. Most likely, we are all prejudiced in some way or other. We must be, to be in this conditioned state. But that doesn't mean we can't strive to modify ourselves along the way to transcendence. Fortunately, we're excused for our thoughts in this age. Krsna changed the rules, added a handicap, to allow for our exceptional blindness. By acting in a certain way, we may change our thoughts, just like smiling can immediately lift a mood.

 

thanks, JR

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 06-16-2002).]

Originally posted by JRdd:

...you have omitted the many types of intelligence that women have too. Common sense is one very good example. and don't forget, Draupadi managed five husbands, kept their accounts, kept charge of the servants, etc. etc.

Originally posted by theist:

Good example.The exception that proves the rule.Draupadi was certainly glorious.

I thought we were talking about intelligence of women in this sphere. Of course none of us measure up to Draupadi. But to use her glorious example (which is told for our aspiration) as a way to prove others' lack of intelligence is unintelligent. (And a to you too!)

originally posted by JRdd:

Women are famous for having the flexibility and intelligence for multi-tasking.

Agreed.Cleaning the house, watching soap operas,shopping,watching soap operas,laundry,gossiping with friends,thawing out the frozen food for dinner.

I personally know no woman whose life consists mainly of these activities. I'm so sorry that your experience has limited you to knowing only the type of woman you describe above. (And another )

I contributed [examples of women's intelligence] above.I should add they are also very very tricky.

Tricky? Maybe to you they are. I found them a walk in the park.

(I'm starting to get the hang of this winking thing. It lets you get away with saying anything, doesn't it? )

Any others...?

Just this: It is only your post of 7:01 that vindicates you from these statements. At least in part. Oh yeah:

JR

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 06-16-2002).]

Originally posted by jndas:

Well, not an ISKCON devotee.

 

He shows signs of devotion to both Shiva and Vishnu in some of his writings. Perhaps he belonged to the panchopasana school (worship of five divinities).

 

Manu on the other hand is a vaishnava pure devotee, one of the Mahajanas whom we follow (Manu Samhita is written by Svayambhuva Manu).

 

It really isn't all that important of a subject, as devotees receive spiritual knowledge directly from Krishna and do not depend on their material faculties.

I felt I was walking a shaky path when I stated that he was not a devotee. Thanks for the clarification.

I guess I had a temporary glitch in my intelligence.

JR

Originally posted by ram:

The only intelligent woman I know in the 14 worlds is Goddess Saraswati. But you know my knowledge is limited. You may be right.

Your experience may also be limited. How old are you?

JR

Ditto that. You know, around here, there is a large Buddhist temple, where many "respectable" members of the community congregate. These Buddhists eat meat! I can't remembering their reasoning for changing their principles, but this particular type of Budhhism is very common now.

In Ukiah, at the Temple of Ten Thousand Budddhas, is a very large congregation of traditional Buddhists, who eat no meat. Their vibe is totally different from the ones around here.

JR

Hi, theist. I didn't know anyonme else was here. I agree with everything you say in this latest post, but you have omitted the many types of intelligence that women have too. Common sense is one very good example. and don't forget, Draupadi managed five husbands, kept their accounts, kept charge of the servants, etc. etc. Women are famous for having the flexibility and intelligence for multi-tasking. I could go on and on thinking of different types of intelligence particular to women, but it would be funner to see someone else add to the list. Even funner would be if a male-bodied forumite did.

JR

Yes, I remember exactly the same thing, and I also put the date around the mid-seventies, when this was circulated around all the temples. I reemmber that Srila Prabhupada said he was a politician (and we know he was aide to a king, if I am not mistaken on this point). I wonder if anyone can come up with source material? In the early days (maybe not so much as in the mid-seventies, but earlier than that) I remember that the movement was small enough that we had an almost instant grapevine, all the time. In those days, most devotees even knew of most of the other devotees in the movement, by name, and what they were known for, or some pastime about them, even if they had never met. For example, I was surprised to discover that little me was known for my cooking among some temples I'd never been to.

My point is, a lot of what Srila Prabhupada said may not be recorded, or provable now, but I doubt whether many men, in the positions to share what Srila Prabhupada told them, would be so inclined to make this up, since it was so popular among many men, as Bhaktavasya prabhu said, to think contrarily to this statement. I remember as early as 1976, though, getting my first glimmer of this type of attitude and prejudice, which somehow was never taken to that extent in the earlier days. We were as a happy family unit of brothers and sisters, some of us married, some not. Around the time I saw this starting, I noticed how a lot of negativity and divisiveness was spreading its evil tentacles throughout the movement. I have always always considered this one of the major causes of the breakdown of our society (and of course this phenomenon is backed by Lord Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita). And it is no better than male-bashing is. It's a terrible attitude for anyone calling himself a devotee to have, and will surely have a profound affect on his spiritual growth.

Whether Srila Prabhupada said it or not, the fact is that Canakya Pandit was not a devotee.

Another, much more important fact is, regardless of what Srila Prabhupada said, he never ever intended any of his words to be used as an excuse for men bringing their childhood hangups to the movement and using them against women, or to boost their egos, which is most unconducive to spiritual life.

I know theist is joking, and that doesn't bother me. But I am surprised and dismayed at Ram, who until now I considered to be very intelligent. Well, there are differnt types of intelligence, as we can see!

I have to go now. There is a tiny round red bug circumambulating on my keyboard, no kidding, and I want to watch it for a while. the other day, a strange flying beetle thing that looked like an iridescent black feather chased me, on the ground, all over the yard. I would move two feet this way, he would follow. I would move three feet another way, there he would come. I made him walk in a complete circle by moving around. I was awestruck by the intelligence of this creature. Just shows brain mass proves nuttin'.

JR

Sorry if it seems like I'm following you. We just keep happening to be in the same place. These poems are absolutely beautiful. When I get back to working on my website, could I post your poems in that poetry section that started?

JR

I understand that sesame seeds (and tahini of course) and sunflower seeds also contain a lot of calcium. But I guess you'd have to find ways to really incorporate these little things into your diet, for it to make some difference?

I read that spinach, being high in oxalic acid, also destroys calcium absorption. (I find it interesting that one of our favorite dishes, as devotees, is spinach and curd subji.) I don't remember if the original post stated this already, so forgive any repetition. I'm trying to stay on this computer for as short a time as possible.

ys, JR

Hari bol Raharani prabhu, and thanks! I don't recall hearing anything about palmarosa. Have you personally found it helpful? Actually I do not need this anymore anyway (at least the deep lows still haven't returned since I made that other post), but who knows? This is a difficult world to stay happy in, if one (like me) is not fully Krsna conscious. But I think my lack of depression has a Krsna conscious basis, for it seems to have much to do with hearing about the dire state of my health, and now everything seems like a big bonus to me. But I will keep that in my mental file, and in the meantime look into it, and any side effects, if any. So many people suffer from depression that it is useful to know something to point them to as well.

Yes, I too have noticed that subtler forms of therapy do not work well on grossness. Bach flower remedies are even more subtle, and then there are crystal tinctures too, and some who pshaw these treatments, or tend in general to label people as cranks or quacks, do indeed have the regular habit of imbibing large amounts of meat.

As for rose water, I have one that comes in a mist-er, and it has kept well for years, but I do not know if there is something added to keep it well. Last year I bought the regular kind you get in Indian stores, that you can use for Deity worship and gulab jammons, and I just store it on a shelf, non-refrigerated, and it is also fine. If you find any answers to the question of whether adding the oil to water yourself keeps well unrefrigerated, I would be interested to know. I am wondering if adding vitamin E oil would help, as this is used to preserve so many herbal preparations.

ys, Jayaradhe

I've thought about this too, and have wondered if the unjunction was based on the way mushrooms are traditionally grown, perhaps in India even, as opposed to the sanitary conditions of commercial growers today. But I am not making any conclusions, either.

Is there something in the quality of the mushroom itself which is in the mode of ignorance, even assuming it was grown in sterile conditions, and/or in cow dung, etc.?

Also, are all things called mushrooms actually of the same species?

I have to admit, while I do intake garlic as it helps my physical condition immensely, for some reason I have a hard time getting around this reishi mushroom idea. It may jsut be prejudice. I want to hear more, before actually going out and getting some. And I would also appreciate hearing others' personal experiences with this medicine, if anyone has the time.

ys, Jayaradhe

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 06-16-2002).]

and finally (leyh):

Dear Mr Krsnadas,

You speak of hankering to be kind and loving while speaking so kindly and lovingly yourself. I've been thinking, about the carpet that gets pulled from underneath us. Of course we always manage to grab it back, and sit on it firmly, in some imagined sense of security. I hanker for the day when there is no carpet left under me even to pull, maybe it'll be worn threadbare from overuse/misuse, or maybe I'll finally lose interest in it. I think when that carpet is gone, then the magic carpet will swoop down and scoop me up to take its place. I think I'll try wearing down the old one by practicing more loving-kindness. Man it is such a harsh world, enough as it is, without spreading more harshness around. It feels like even when we try not to, we somehow manage to hurt others. It's like, just by colluding with this world, we get implicated in all kinds of foul stuff. I feel so ashamed and undignified when that happens (a good deal of the time ), as if I am above all that and it was just a temporary glitch in my system. It's a sleazy, sleazy place to hang out in. I boggle to think of the humility of Srila Prabhupada in taking on so many many fallen souls, including some of the lowest of civilization, in spite of being sometimes criticised and joked about because of it. He never wavered. That is real humility.

Originally posted by Krsnadas:

Yes I think the carpet is being pulled on many. I know mine was literally pulled last week, But I still have a nice tapestry rug that innumerable great souls have sung and danced on, that I set up over the years especially to gather their footdust. It all helps.

"So the carpet too is moving under you, now it's all eternal Baby blue."

To all the Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis, who are like desire trees fullfilling everyones inner wishes, I embrace ya little pink roots. Offering my koti dandvats I ask you all, Where has that Blue dude gone?

Krsna dasanudas the perplexed.

Jayaradhe the carpetrider

(edited for semi-significant typos)

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 06-11-2002).]

This site has alpha lipoic acid for $19.

http://www.iherb.com/ala.html

Best wishes for all the devotees' health!

love, Jayaradhe

Oh I love this post, and the story in it too. I can't add much to it now, you have said a good mouthful as it is, lots of food for thought, if more thought like this it would be as you wish.

On a side note, I too have had a dilemma over this very matter. I think one solution could be having a separate towel for the feet. My mom always had us using a head towel, and a body towel. Keeping them separate. I love the arguments given by both devotees. Our late Godsister Vilasini once told me that there were two cooks in New York temple who would discuss things like whether to peel the grapes or not, and were so dedicated to serving the Lord nicely, that it was a joy to watch them in their simplicity of devotion.

Thanks for a great start to a great day. Wish I had time to check out the other nectar on these forums.

JR

Did someone else say grits? Forget the female bashing, food's my religion since a recent involuntary four month fast, and when you ask what grits is (or are) I am wondering what kind of Americans you are. No it is not the dictionary definition, at all! Go to the store, now, and buy a box of Albert's Quick Grits. It will look like tiny white things in the box. Cook as directed (basically boil in water and it expands a lot), add heaps of butter, cheese too if you are strong enough, salt and black pepper, and you will never sneer at a grits-lover again. I consider it so yummy I offer it to my Deities. If you are not in shape to at least have butter on it, forget it.

Now I must go, and find some more food to eat.

Hare Krsna, JR

I love grits and hate football.

Computer crashed, jsut got it back today with new hard drive, catching up a bit here now, so it seems like reishi and milk thistle are highlights. these things are on my list and I hope to be able to get them tomorrow, or at least the ones I know recommended dosages of. Saw palmetto really grabs me too.

Now, do you (or anyone) have any thoughts on vitamin E? I know that it is a blood thinner, and I already have low platelets, so that I can't even get treated at a dentists without a lot of back and forth faxing and instructions and permission, etc, but also I know it is known to heal scar tissue on the skin, would this also heal scar tissue of the liver, I wonder? And is it a serious blood thinner? I hear garlic is too, but my body wants it a lot, and I think it is helping with the toxins.

Yesterday I started a medicine called lactulose, to reduce the ammonia levels built up in the system. Mental clarity should come, etc. It seems to be a low impact medicine for side effects, but who knows. When you are on the edge you will do what you need to to survive.

Thanks so much for the inputs.

ys, JR

I thought graperoot was something particurly special for the liver. If it is similar to goldenseal though, I will stick to the tried and true latter.

OK I have this list now that includes saw palmetto, astragalus, and curcumin extract, all of which I am drawn to getting asap, then I have also, to introduce one at a time, maybe MSM (forgot to take any the other night, but I remember it as being pretty tasteless, just that you had to gulp it down quick because it settles), and by myrhh do you mean the tincture? I may have some of this. I did not know you could take it internally. I think of it as being for the mouth.

I think I was taking sufficient amounts of milk thistle. I get it in strong tinctures, and was doing 15-20 drops recommended, three times a day. Actually it isn't entirely fair or true for me to claim it made no changes, for I believe that a lot of things I have been doing have kept me going these years. My dad died of cirrhosis at 54. I am a ouple of years short of that age. He was alcoholic though, too. And of course not clued into "alternative" and natural help.

Do you think it is better to get most things in measured form like tablets (as in the milk thistle)? I tend to think of solid forms as being not as easily broken down and assimilated. I have heard that a lot of whole pills get taken straight to the sewage plants! Seriously.

Oh yes I want to get that aswhagandha too. The jury is still out on the ginseng. Takes a lot of education to dispel prejudice.

Anyway, I only add one thing at a time to my system, to let it adjust, and also to observe changes and side efffects, if any.

Oh I like collard greens and mustard, we grew up on that, my mom always grew it as it is like weeds, so I will start eating that more.

I know you meant alot of ginger, little honey. I don't eat a lot of honey anyway. I have seen men who guzzle it down though. Funny critters.

Thanks for the tip about curcumin. That is number one on my have-to-get list now, along with saw palmetto. I have heard that Srila Prabhupada used to advise tumeric in milk for the liver. I imagine that was for less severe problems though.

I take it celebrex is some allopathic pain reliever?

Thanks again for all this knowledgeable input. I want you to know I really am grateful, and force myself over here to this thread even if I am tired, to see what you have to say, and that I am not generally inclined to just accept advice out of hand. It seems you know such a lot, over all, and I feel fortunate that you are sharing some of this knowledge with me.

ys, Jayaradhe

(edited to remove a partial quote accidentaly left at the end)

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 05-26-2002).]

Wow, this is fantastic news. Now John Q Public can have even longer work hours. I mean there just isn't enough time, and this is a real solution. Why didn't the creator invent enough time for us? Some things you just gotta do yourself.

JR

I am going to try my bulk MSM tonight. A quarter teaspoon only. An email buddy has reported incredible results from this and I think most people could benefit from it.