JRdd

Originally posted by dasanudas:

No matter what I try to put on my hair it just keeps waving adios

Maybe it's the Wurry Katha I'm engaged in.

At least it keeps waving. Mine is as straight as a stick. Maybe I should wurry more? Or hurry more? Or hari more?

(Krsna has the curliest.)

Originally posted by shvu:

Spirituality is not for everyone.

This is true. I am assuming, though I may be wrong, that Atma's friend is on some spiritual path. I agree that for the most part religious institutions are used for ones economic and moral support and even for the sake of appearing as a pious or religious person. god is the order-supplier.

I don't agree that the categories you have defined are so black and white though. Three distinct categories? The honest materialists, and fully renounced, and the confused ones in between? It is unfair to say that people who are seeking enlightenment are confused simply because they are not fully there. For many, progress is gradual. Very rarely is enlightenment instant. For many, spiritual evolvement includes learning the art of balancing being in this world and yet not of this world. Some may be kidding themselves about their particular level of enlightenment but not all of them necessarily are.

The point is, be clear about what you want in life. And once you are clear, give it your best.

Absolutely.

Cheers too.

JR

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

The solution to all problems is ultimately spiritual. Material solutions will bring more problems along with solving - it is an endless cycle.

I agree. One remains on the temporal plane, and becomes even more entangled and thus gets further away from his/her spiritual beingness the more one seeks material solutions.

This, however, can be easily said, whereas one who is not fully self-realised may not be up to the challenges of seeing beyond the immediate dire situation. I recall the lower planets as being so difficult that the people there can not even consider spiritual awakening, so caught up are they in their circumstances. Of course even on this planet we have seen hellish conditions such as starvation, and it takes a very rare person to be at peace with this condition and see transcendentally.

I knew a Gujerati family in England who said they were so poor while living in Africa that they used to go eat at the Christian mission. The Christians fed the poor Asians, and converted many in this way.

So how will Atma's friend come to this level of understanding? Or for that matter any of us? We have to start from where we are and progress accordingly being fully honest and not falsely jumping ahead. A good beginning is to learn to respect all others and try not to exploit others for our own personal needs.

This is a great point. This would be a leap of faith. I have repeatedly seen where people I know have done the opposite, have compromised themselves for some temporary solution or gain, only to find themselves facing the same dilemmas repeatedly, and although for some short time they seem to be moving somewhere, or making some change for the better, over the long term they are in the same place they started. Truly a lose/lose situation as you say. They become caught in a mode of operation which does nothing for healthy self-esteem or confidence in the universe, God, etc. thus the world remains a frightening place. Intense prayer may be needed to make such a leap of faith.

The real issue isn't whether love is 'illusory'. The illusion is our misidentification with matter. We cannot divorce ourselves from our feelings. In the name of universal love (which until you are truly on that platform of realization is only mental ajustment) so many will become indifferent and cold calculating individuals?

Oh boy, this brings up sad memories. Imagine having the ring tossed at you with a smirk toward his friend moments after you have been declared married. Imagine being told that the reason he marrried you was because he found it difficult to remain celibate due to being approached by women while delivering paintings door to door. In other words, imagine finding out there is no love in the marriage.

We must have feelings and they should be progressive. They must move from selfishness to selflessness. Helping others in the beginning of development of a heart of compassion.

These are beautiful thoughts, and fit in with M Scott Peck's definition of love.

ys, JR

Originally posted by shvu:

 

There is a lot to be said for taking consolation in philosophy or religion. Friends of mine have suffered the unthinkable--their very young children suddenly and accidently leaving their bodies--and in both cases I witnessed how, in the beginning stages of their grief, they found consolation in considering philosophic points, such as that the soul is eternal, and religiously, like God is in control, God is our friend, etc. Over the course of time these ideas became more realized, and through this the idea that everything that happens, even such tragedies, is ultimately some kind of blessing has been seen as a reality. This involves faith, of course, same as one's commitment to another ideally involves faith of some kind. When one has faith this kind of self-talk travels far beyond mere parroting.

 

Back more directly to the subject at hand, one may argue about the nature of these parents' love, but whether one likes to regard it as illusory or not, conditional or not, their love ultimately brought them to a higher understanding. Feelings are there for a reason. Thus, I feel strong objections to one coldly calculating for convenience sake. Though I do understand, and with compassion, the desperation which leads one to consider such.

 

Who is this friend, Atma? Is there no way we can among us find a benefactor, or employer, who could help her get on her feet? Even our efforts would likely show her she is not alone.

 

JR

 

Originally posted by animesh:

The material world may be real or illusory based on one's perspectives. A person who is not at all afraid by problems in this life (no matter how severe they are) and who has realized his identity with Brahm will feel that this world is illusory. But for everyone else this world is very real. If somebody really has realized his oneness with Brahm, then he will himself understand this world to be an illusion; nobody needs to explain this to him. If we have to explain to somebody that the world is an illusion, this means that, for that person, it is real.

Then there is the perspective that this plane is as real as anything, being a small part of the vast (spiritual) world. That's why a self-realised soul can live anywhere, and even travel "between" worlds. For him/her there is no between (in that sense).

IMO, the solution to the situation posted by atma can never be found by knowing whether the world is real or not.

I agree. But it does seem to be opening up other useful points here.

JR

Originally posted by shvu:

There however, exists a very important condition that the love is for her own child and not for all the children in the world. Tha father loves his child for the same condition too. "This child is my child". The condition, "mine" makes all the difference.

 

Cheers

Absolutely true, and I myself always saw this statement in this light; it is only obvious. But it gives some indication of the quality of unconditional love, as does any love (animals included) which involves selfless sacrifice.

Love from whatever level or degree it manifests--be it compassion for an injured bird, or charitable feelings, or parental or conjugal, is at least a starting point. I like M Scott Peck's the Road Less Traveled, A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values, and Spiritual Growth, wherein he (albeit, as he himself admits, a rough attempt) defines love as "the will to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one's own or antoher's spiritual growth".

But there are many ways to look at love.

I love this discussion; it is very interesting, and useful too.

ys, JR

Animesh makes a lot of sense. And since experience was called for, I would like to add that just because marriages are still arranged in some countries doesn't mean it should be imitated, and certainly it does not necessarily mean these marriages are good. Wives are often still seen as commodities in India, and their families are sucked dry for large dowries. Many wives are treated as slaves in the home of the in-laws, and thrown out or even doused with gas and flames when they are no longer wanted. If the man was attached to his wife, if he saw her as a person rather than someone to use/abuse (and vice versa) these things would not go on. Arranged marriages were properly done with precision astrology and it is very hard to find a truly qualified astrologer in these modern times.

I believe the attraction between man and woman is innate because it helps them to initiate a contact which at its best, if they are devotees, can create a bond of mutual commitment to helping one another over the rocky mounds of this material existence. Arranged marriages, on the other hand, may be too coldly calculating, and, as in the scenario described by Animesh, may fail or badly backfire in time. There has to be something binding them other than money. Something deeper. The ultimate being Krsna as the center.

ys, JR

Srila Prabhupada said that a girl will develop love for her husband by serving him. Other stuff about love in this world: even animals have it for their own, like cats with their kittens. Cows and elephants will cry for their babies. More on love: He also said that a mother's love is the closest thing to unconditional love in this world.

JR

Even before I came to the sentence in which you mentioned volcanic beginnings, I was struck with your descriptions which reminded me of houw, after a volcanic eruption, there may seem to be chaos and pollution in the area, but when everything settles down again, the land, with all the volcanic dust, becomes more viable than before. Small pots of this dust is sold by nurseries at great cost, so strong and healthy are its properties. I love on a street that floods every few years (only twice since 1990), when the river freakishly overflows, and a lifelong resident was telling me how wonderfully everything grows because of it.

Mr Das, I enjoyed reading your history, and the perspective of how you felt in such a small secure clan, which I had never heard before (regarding joining the smaller family of Srila Sridhar Maharaj). I also remember how Srila Prabhupada always wanted these smaller families, within the larger family, as you yourself have described in the above posts. This is how it felt to me when I joined, and what joy there was too in meeting for big festivals, as Maitreya has mentioned, and seeing the larger family.

Compassion is the key to harmony and unity, I believe, as Maitreya has said. My heart leaped to see this keyword here. Now when harmony is discussed on an absolute level, does this mean that the diversity includes also anger. Can anger be reconciled in a harmonious way? These posts are giving me pause for reflection, I already made up my mind last night concerning my recent dealings with Valaya. I am now pondering about the appropiateness of anger, as we do know that anger for the sake of the truth does have its place; however, maybe my own compassion was tainted by my anger. And my question is not only about anger fitting in with the whole harmonious performance, but also about offensiveness to the acaryas fitting into the scheme of things. I accept the words, but find them inconceivable to some extent, when Srila Sridhara Maharaja says even the enemy fits in. (sorry, can't remember the exact words)

Anyway, thanks for these posts, all of you who are seeking to find ways to practice unity in diversity for the sake of livingentitykind.

ys

Jayaradhe

This is wonderful nectar to start off the day. Thank you for your kindness Mr das and may we all feel the peace of knowing Radha Krsna as our dearmost friends. May we have more drops of such nectar? I want to hear about the crying club, too.

ys, JR

This is wonderful nectar to start off the day. Thank you for your kindness Mr das and may we all feel the peace of knowing Radha Krsna as our dearmost friends. May we have more drops of such nectar? I want to hear about the crying club, too.

ys, JR

That was really inspiring. Srila Prabhupada has always been so kind and encouraging. Where did this conversation take place, do you know?

JR

I think even if your signature was changed you would still find some way to feel offended.

No offense intended. I am going to pray to Kanea for all the wounded hearts.

I think even if your signature was changed you would still find some way to feel offended.

No offense intended. I am going to pray to Kanea for all the wounded hearts.

There is some other natural thing that aids in assimilation of calcium, but I can't think what it is. Apparently even taking calcium supplements does not assure one of enough calcium. Anyway sesame, sunflower seeds, and lots of other things have it in it besides milk.

Your story shows the purpose behind some visions, for you had the choice of whether to heed your uncle's prediction, or the doctor's prediction; if you'd chosen the former...and then it is interesting though that heeding the doctor's vision inspired you to share your wisdoms with your relatives. Choice, free will, is some kind of miracle too. (Sorry if I go on too much about miracles.)

JR

There is some other natural thing that aids in assimilation of calcium, but I can't think what it is. Apparently even taking calcium supplements does not assure one of enough calcium. Anyway sesame, sunflower seeds, and lots of other things have it in it besides milk.

Your story shows the purpose behind some visions, for you had the choice of whether to heed your uncle's prediction, or the doctor's prediction; if you'd chosen the former...and then it is interesting though that heeding the doctor's vision inspired you to share your wisdoms with your relatives. Choice, free will, is some kind of miracle too. (Sorry if I go on too much about miracles.)

JR

Originally posted by shvu:

I don't believe in a thing. Devas may exist or not, in reality. But the important thing is I have no way of knowing if they exist. That is reason enough for me to dismiss them.

 

Cheers

But do you believe only in things you can see with your physical eyes, or those things which scientists (who often retract their original findings) have "proven"? Don't you ever get a "sense" of things, beyond the ordinary perceptional senses that we kaliyuga people are so used to relying on? Also, I am curious: if you believe in nothing (excepting your belief that believing in nothing is the most viable and logical way to be--did I get that right?) does everything seem quite ordinary and bland to you? Do you ever feel existential angst? A futile purposelessness to living? I am also way intrigued as to why you are attracted to Vaisnava forums (this expressed with no offense intended). Do you think religion is opiate for the masses? Forgive if this is too many questions or they offend you in any way.

JR

JR

Originally posted by shvu:

I don't believe in a thing. Devas may exist or not, in reality. But the important thing is I have no way of knowing if they exist. That is reason enough for me to dismiss them.

 

Cheers

But do you believe only in things you can see with your physical eyes, or those things which scientists (who often retract their original findings) have "proven"? Don't you ever get a "sense" of things, beyond the ordinary perceptional senses that we kaliyuga people are so used to relying on? Also, I am curious: if you believe in nothing (excepting your belief that believing in nothing is the most viable and logical way to be--did I get that right?) does everything seem quite ordinary and bland to you? Do you ever feel existential angst? A futile purposelessness to living? I am also way intrigued as to why you are attracted to Vaisnava forums (this expressed with no offense intended). Do you think religion is opiate for the masses? Forgive if this is too many questions or they offend you in any way.

JR

JR

Originally posted by shvu:

Example:

 

If someone floats around by defying the laws of Gravity, that would be a miracle.

I think this computer is a miracle. I think that the brains behind this computer are miracles. I think the law of gravity is a miracle.

There was a program on Discovery a couple of days back, about levitation....

I too think this hoax is ridiculous. I also think it's miracle that so many believe in it. (But I also believe that a person can fly if he/she knows how. I have understood how to do this in dreams, and the ability is based in large part on will. But when I wake up I can't remember the trick.)

JR

Originally posted by shvu:

Example:

 

If someone floats around by defying the laws of Gravity, that would be a miracle.

I think this computer is a miracle. I think that the brains behind this computer are miracles. I think the law of gravity is a miracle.

There was a program on Discovery a couple of days back, about levitation....

I too think this hoax is ridiculous. I also think it's miracle that so many believe in it. (But I also believe that a person can fly if he/she knows how. I have understood how to do this in dreams, and the ability is based in large part on will. But when I wake up I can't remember the trick.)

JR

Originally posted by shvu:

That is it. The broken wing has to be part of God's control too. But the important thing is that the bird cannot fly anymore because of the laws of physics.

 

Thus every occurence is governed by laws of nature.

 

Cheers

Yes true on one level or from one perspective. But ultimately it comes to everything being governed, either directly or indrectly, by the one who created those laws.

By the way, do you believe in fairies and other such devas? Just curious.

JR

Originally posted by shvu:

That is it. The broken wing has to be part of God's control too. But the important thing is that the bird cannot fly anymore because of the laws of physics.

 

Thus every occurence is governed by laws of nature.

 

Cheers

Yes true on one level or from one perspective. But ultimately it comes to everything being governed, either directly or indrectly, by the one who created those laws.

By the way, do you believe in fairies and other such devas? Just curious.

JR

Originally posted by shvu:

Which is exactly my point.

 

We don't ask basic question like, why are we existing, why do the planets go around the sun, etc.

I do. Whether my questions are based philosophically, theologically, or posed purely out of curiosity (including scientific or natural laws), I ask these kinds of questions all the time.

Those who believe in God, must believe that everything is governed by God. Yet God is explicitly mentioned as the reason only for things that cannot be explained.

So I am asking, from the standpoint of someone who believes ultimately everything is governed by God, what is the purpose of these visions, and why do some have them and some not. Actually, I will even ask this question from the standpoint of atheism: What is the purpose of these visions if we can't do anything about them? And does everything necessarily have to have a purpose.

JR

Cheers

Originally posted by shvu:

Which is exactly my point.

 

We don't ask basic question like, why are we existing, why do the planets go around the sun, etc.

I do. Whether my questions are based philosophically, theologically, or posed purely out of curiosity (including scientific or natural laws), I ask these kinds of questions all the time.

Those who believe in God, must believe that everything is governed by God. Yet God is explicitly mentioned as the reason only for things that cannot be explained.

So I am asking, from the standpoint of someone who believes ultimately everything is governed by God, what is the purpose of these visions, and why do some have them and some not. Actually, I will even ask this question from the standpoint of atheism: What is the purpose of these visions if we can't do anything about them? And does everything necessarily have to have a purpose.

JR

Cheers

But I DO feel as if God is the reason behind everything. Even the broken wing. Assuming God is real/you accept the existence of God, how can God be separated from anything.

JR