Kulapavana

I have been working on practical application of varnashram principles for close to 30 years. I know what is practical and what is not. Have you ever tried to live off the land? How about actually producing a crop from that land? For most devotees of your generation, varnasrama ideal is some happy hippie commune, miraculously able to feed the world from just a few acres and a small herd of milking cows... IMO they simply smoked too much reefer in their youth to think straight anymore...

It all starts at the top. True brahmanas do not MANAGE projects or control the society or it's money. They merely advise the managers speaking the truth, leading a simple and austere life. Do you see any of that EVER being the case in Iskcon? What about the idea that ANYBODY can become a brahmana? How is it based on varnasrama realities? It is obviously not working because after so many years we are still very short on brahmanas. Ihe Iskcon idea of varnasrama is fat sannyasi 'brahmanas' living a high life at the expense of regular devotees working hard in the fields or in the streets. That is as bogus as it gets, the same caste 'brahmana' abuse we see in India. What sane person would want to see THAT implemented in Iskcon? Varnasham is not kibutz living, as promoted by various Iskcon sannyasis. It is about individual ownership and merit based social organization as explained in the Gita.

you can produce food without trying to implement varnashrama, it is done all the time... reducing varnashrama to rural living is extremely naive.

In order for an idea to change the world, it must be practical. KC movement as introduced by Prabhupada was practical and appealed to a certain group of people at a particular moment in time. The concept of varnashrama never took roots among the devotees because very few of them see any benefit of introducing it into their own life, let alone introducing it into general society.

It all started with this incorrect assumption: 1. Only God-like uttama-adhikaris can give initiation. Step 2. Prabhupada authorized me to initiate... Step 3. Because 1 and 2 are true, I must be a God-like uttama adhikari!! These people actually believed in all the above. It was not a demonic plot. It was just a case of ignorance and material desires for fame, profit, and distinction. Many devotees still have the illusion that #1 is absolutly true. Thus they invent all kinds of bogus theories to explain REALITY.

I honestly think that Prabhupada used their overblown egos to make them work harder for Krsna's mission, but I also accept your point. Based on some accounts, he gave sannyasa to Kirtanananda just to save him from his homosexual tendencies, and gave sannyasa to some devotees on the verge of blooping just to keep them in the movement a little bit longer. Thus he traded the traditional sanctity and gravity of the sannyasa ashrama for some much needed service from these people.

you do not think Prabhupada cheapened sannyasa by giving it freely to unqualified people? It was not relativism? He wanted them to preach so he facilitated their overblown egos. Sure, that was not a traditionalist approach, and it certainly made sannyasa relative. And it is still relative, just look at the more recent sannyasi scandals.

The point is that Prabhupada knew about the corruption in his movement, saw it as inevitable given the fallen nature of his disciples, and tried to use it in Krsna's service. IMO the Iskcon of today is not that much different from Iskcon in Prabhupada's times. Actually, we might even have fewer scandals now than in the 70's. I think Iskcon bottomed out in the 80's and 90's and is now getting better.

Before you go beserk, read the last few posts again, yours included. You started by claiming that Prabhupada did not tolerate corruption. To which I replied that there certainly was corruption during his time. Nowhere did I say that I blame Prabhupada for this. Quite the opposite. I said it was due to conditioning of his disciples.

He gave sannyasa to completely unqualified people. Why? He knew very well that in his movement being a sannyasi was an automatic ticket to power, fame, and priviledge. Why would he do that knowing these people were nowhere near ready to be sannyasis?

I think Prabhupada saw corruption in his movement (and there was plenty of that in his days) as an inevitable byproduct of his disciples conditioning. He actually tried to use it in spreading of his movement - motivating his materialistic disciples also with power, position, and distinction. They were his big monkeys. Why do you think he gave these people sannyasa? Because they were ready? LOL! He gave them what they wanted, so they would give him what he wanted: the facility to spread Lord Caitanya's movement. For him they collected money to build temples, produced and distributed his books, preached all over the world. And most (if not all) of the leaders he appointed were enjoying the perks of their position to the fullest.

I agree that the first generation of Western devotees worked very hard to bring KC to people like myself - I am very, very grateful for that. But at one point they - as a group and with notable exceptions - turned into more of an obstacle than help. And the lie has not died yet, because we still have so many of these fake sannyasis with silk underwear, clinging to power at all cost, still promoting fake understanding of guru tattva and neglecting the social issues.

Thank you! Excellent news! Looks like Krsna cooperated on this one

I'm not so sure about that. Prabhupada had an idea at one time to hold exams for the Bhaktivedanta title as a qualification to be a guru: 68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta " Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program. " That program was never put in place, but the idea (and thus a sanction), of passing some sort of a benchmark test to be a guru, is clearly something he introduced in Iskcon.

That part is not what Prabhupada would have liked. The mess is there now, made by some egotistical and manipulative disciples of Prabhupada. It will not be like that forever. Most of these 'gurus' are being ignored by the more mature devotees. Yet, there are also gurus I consider legitimate, useful, and very inspiring. So it is a mixed bag. Anyway, Krsna is in charge and He will force the changes.

Some of the devotees I was talking about are on their second or third 'guru'. Do you think they are 'guru fanatics'? They often took another 'initiation' just because they were pressured from above to do so. Others have a guru they really like, but do not see him as an absolute authority on everything. Yet another group have gurus which are quite reasonable. But they all know what is important: the mission. I associate with these people every day. Directly and through the web.

The devotees I'm talking about regularly go out on harinam and book sankirtan, hold Sunday feasts in temples they maintain and manage, preach to people, organize open festivals, and run farms aimed at economic viability. They care very little about the often rotten top of Iskcon power pyramid. They are not stupid. They may not be able to influence the GBC decisions but they do carry on with Prabhupada's mission. One day, when the corrupt old-timers now in GBC leave this world, these devotees will take over. They are not ex-hippie power junkie pseudo-sannyasis. They are practical, sincere devotees who understand the past mistakes and know the needs of the present day people. That is why I am optimistic about Prabhupada's mission. Prabhupada's 'children' are the brake. When his 'grand-children' take over, it will be a completely different Iskcon, IMO much closer to what Prabhupada intended.

I personally know scores of good, dedicated devotees in current Iskcon, and yes, they represent the core of Prabhupada's mission. The top is mostly rotten, but I am very optimistic about the future.

I never said that 'all things' are up for editing. The core of his mission as presented in ISKCON's original incorporation statements is non-negotiable, but precisely what form our efforts take to achieve these goals is very much flexible and a matter of pragmatic opinion.

It IS to a very large extent a matter of opinion. And Prabhupada was not only sometimes ambiguous, but also practical, pragmatic, and willing to make a 180 degrees turn on his 'way' to correct the course.

Based on Braja-sundari's report, things are looking up. The Ashram might be saved, but it is still an uncertain proposition. With the help of some neighbors they cleared lots of brush and cut down a few trees that were close to the buildings. The fire dept told them that there are good chances for saving the buildings when the fire gets close. Hare Krsna!

That was my orginal point: WHO decides what EXACTLY is the actual 'Prabhupada's way'? There are obviously various opinions on that.

Prabhupada's Way or the Highway! Nice slogan for the historically challenged. Study the ISKCON history in Prabhupada's time for clues as to how that 'way' affected people and management of society. Those who suggest that that 'way' produced only good results and successful preaching are in a very deep illusion. Placing in position of control 'power junkie type' young sannyasis... sending 6 year old kids to India to be 'properly trained' by untrained strangers... placing women on the margins of society and giving them just four years of schooling... that was 'Prabhupada's way' too. Prabhupada adjusted his way all the time, based on pragmatism. Time, place and circumstances.

That is very kind of you... I can take all the cows if need be and maybe a couple of devotees. There is a strong Tripurari Maharaja support group here in PV.

wow... that sounds pretty desperate