Kulapavana

Back to the varnashrama issue: This always makes me laugh: Devotees (western of course) who spend all kinds of money to get an astrological chart(s) made for them, but who have no idea what their varna is, and even that it is important to one's well being to know about your varna...

Back to the varnashrama issue: This always makes me laugh: Devotees (western of course) who spend all kinds of money to get an astrological chart(s) made for them, but who have no idea what their varna is, and even that it is important to one's well being to know about your varna...

I hope they will let them continue with raam use (I love the name! :-) ...and it is more useful than you think. If you issue your own money you can control it's value and profit from it's fluctuations. Here in US the Federal Reserve Bank (a private organization, mind you) makes at least 10 cents on every dollar they put in circulation.

Yes prabhu, it was a nice conversation and I thank you for it. Honest and dignified exchange of ideas between devotees is very important. My understanding is limited, but grows through such sincere discussions. Nobody should be afraid to express their doubts or understanding, even when matters are controversial and emotionally charged. We all miss Srila Prabhupada and care deeply about the future of his mission... Hare Krishna!

Yes prabhu, it was a nice conversation and I thank you for it. Honest and dignified exchange of ideas between devotees is very important. My understanding is limited, but grows through such sincere discussions. Nobody should be afraid to express their doubts or understanding, even when matters are controversial and emotionally charged. We all miss Srila Prabhupada and care deeply about the future of his mission... Hare Krishna!

I must have missed something but in all of these quotes there is no mention of the ritvik system (and only a few are quotes from SP books). So this is simply your conjecture, interpolation or speculation that he is talking about ritvik system in these quotes. And that is fine by me: you used your intelligence to understand SP instructions and came up with ritvik system. Yet others - studying the same instructions - have a different oppinion. Just learn to respect that...

I must have missed something but in all of these quotes there is no mention of the ritvik system (and only a few are quotes from SP books). So this is simply your conjecture, interpolation or speculation that he is talking about ritvik system in these quotes. And that is fine by me: you used your intelligence to understand SP instructions and came up with ritvik system. Yet others - studying the same instructions - have a different oppinion. Just learn to respect that...

"...but Krishna within your heart helps too.." Most certainly... many times in my devotional life I followed that voice and was never disappointed. After all, this is the voice that led me to Krishna Consciousness in the first place :-)

"Srila Prabhupada told that all information what we need is in His books and I accept that it is so" So where in his books do you find your ritvik system? LOL!

"Srila Prabhupada told that all information what we need is in His books and I accept that it is so" So where in his books do you find your ritvik system? LOL!

Prabhu, there are many good devotees out there to take diksa from, but if some desire ritvik initiation - it is their choice... A real guru always feels that he is doing things on behalf of his spiritual master. No need to invent a new system. All preaching is essentially local. Just make sure our tradition is alive in the hearts and minds of all who preach and accept disciples in our temples... Hare Krishna!

Prabhu, there are many good devotees out there to take diksa from, but if some desire ritvik initiation - it is their choice... A real guru always feels that he is doing things on behalf of his spiritual master. No need to invent a new system. All preaching is essentially local. Just make sure our tradition is alive in the hearts and minds of all who preach and accept disciples in our temples... Hare Krishna!

SP instructions just prior to his passing from our view were interpreted to create this "zonal acharya" concept, clearly in order to concentrate both material as well as ideological power (or "spiritual" power if you prefer). That was a very risky move with dubious motivations... and the price was terrible... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

SP instructions just prior to his passing from our view were interpreted to create this "zonal acharya" concept, clearly in order to concentrate both material as well as ideological power (or "spiritual" power if you prefer). That was a very risky move with dubious motivations... and the price was terrible... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Our tradition does not begin or end with Srila Prabhupada. Are you denying somehow that in our Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition the rule is physical acceptance ond BOTH sides of the guru/disciple relationship? LOL! As to the second issue: the point is that SP willingly and formally accepted all these devotees on HIS SIDE as they were recommended by the local temple presidents.

Our tradition does not begin or end with Srila Prabhupada. Are you denying somehow that in our Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition the rule is physical acceptance ond BOTH sides of the guru/disciple relationship? LOL! As to the second issue: the point is that SP willingly and formally accepted all these devotees on HIS SIDE as they were recommended by the local temple presidents.

Re #1. You can say SP authorized the GBC to "do the needful" with respect to the management of ISKCON. Re #2. The need to expand the shrinking pool of initiating gurus after the "zonal acharya" fiasco forced GBC to effectively authorize new gurus. That happened in the mid 80's I think.

Re #1. You can say SP authorized the GBC to "do the needful" with respect to the management of ISKCON. Re #2. The need to expand the shrinking pool of initiating gurus after the "zonal acharya" fiasco forced GBC to effectively authorize new gurus. That happened in the mid 80's I think.

More on the acceptance between a guru and disciple: Acceptance is, by definition of our tradition, a process where BOTH guru and disciple accept each other in order to complete the link to the parampara. That is the shastric proces. Do not contaminate our tradition with such un-Vedic concepts as "no need for a living guru to agree to accept you into parampara". Each acharya in our sampradaya MUST be viewed in the context of our tradition. That is part of our check and balance system, preventing overzealous disciples from taking words of their guru and inventing their own tradition You have to consider what is the rule first. Vedas allow all kinds of exceptions to the general rules provided that there is a very good reason for it. Guru/disciple relationship is both instructional and mystical (and that includes personal sentiment, often carried from birth to birth) but the rule is clearly that of physical acceptance on BOTH sides.

You have to consider what is the rule first. Vedas allow all kinds of exceptions to the general rules provided that there is a very good reason for it. Guru/disciple relationship is both instructional and mystical (and that includes personal sentiment, often carried from birth to birth) but the rule is clearly that of physical acceptance ond BOTH sides.

You have to consider what is the rule first. Vedas allow all kinds of exceptions to the general rules provided that there is a very good reason for it. Guru/disciple relationship is both instructional and mystical (and that includes personal sentiment, often carried from birth to birth) but the rule is clearly that of physical acceptance ond BOTH sides.

You are making a totaly bogus claim, dressing it up with out of context quotes. Acceptance is, by definition of our tradition, a process where BOTH guru and disciple accept each other in order to complete the link to the parampara. That is the shastric proces. Do not contaminate our tradition with such un-Vedic concepts. Each acharya in our sampradaya MUST be viewed in the context of our tradition. That is part of our check and balance system, preventing overzealous disciples from taking words of their guru and inventing their own tradition.

You are making a totaly bogus claim, dressing it up with out of context quotes. Acceptance is, by definition of our tradition, a process where BOTH guru and disciple accept each other in order to complete the link to the parampara. That is the shastric proces. Do not contaminate our tradition with such un-Vedic concepts. Each acharya in our sampradaya MUST be viewed in the context of our tradition. That is part of our check and balance system, preventing overzealous disciples from taking words of their guru and inventing their own tradition.

Alpa-medhasa:..."in traditional (ideal) Vedic society, one who is trained up as a brahmin, and retains that qualification, can become a guru. The brahmins are the spiritual masters of society. In our pancharaatra tradition, we allow individuals to become brahmins even if they are not born as seminal brahmins. But in any case, the point is that as long as the individual is trained up as a brahmin, has studied the scriptures, and has at least sad-aachaara level of behavior, then he can become a spiritual master. Of course, as far as we are concerned, the brahmin should also be a devotee of Lord Krishna, and one who knows our Gaudiya Vaishnava conclusions as Srila Prabhupada taught them." Most of the problems in our devotee society can be traced to abandoning or disregarding the Vedic standards.

I remember when we moved to US first thing we saw on TV was the sunday morning "religious" roundup. I was convinced it was some kind of parody of religious services or a freak show. Coming from Europe, I could not fathom it was for real. Only later we have learned that millions of people give money to such cheaters.