rudraksha

i have given the sources, did i not say the shaiva puranas? they extoll shiva as supreme, it is one of the largest religous traditions in the world, also the oldest of the hindu traditions, u simply just have not done your research, u have only looked in vaishnava texts, there are many shaiva texts that describe why Shiva is supreme, not vishnu, example: Sveshvatara Upanishad is an easy access text.... www.shaivam.org and urday.com to read different puranas... in vedas vishnu is just a minor solar god, nothing much there, all the devas in Veda extoll the formless Brahman, which is Shiva. Vishnu has form and so is limited, he did not know the nature of God in the beginning and neither did brahma. Rudra is just a form of the Supreme Shiva, thats why its confusing in stories....God is highest and therefore should be honored as the most transcendant beyond form. hard to grasp isnt it

"Perhaps if I reword the idea a third way it will be clear. If she worships Siva, a great devotee of Krsna according to the Vedas he can find many scriptural verses that will convince his fiancee that all is well." that is not completely true, the Vedas support krsna being devoted to shiva actually, and shiva being the supreme, how come vishnu devotees always try to refute and deny it? there are scriptures proclaiming both, but Vedas are the center for the rest. check out the shiva purana, skanda purana, and linga purana, plus tamil saints' poetry and stories, and how shaivism was revived in Tamil Nadu u would be astonished on the stories....... but no one should tell someone how or who to worship as supreme, thats going over the edge.....respect and let go of pride, it only destroys....only the greatly learned scholars and sages should have the right to argue like this, because they know better not to get in fights or get tremendously angry.....

"Perhaps if I reword the idea a third way it will be clear. If she worships Siva, a great devotee of Krsna according to the Vedas he can find many scriptural verses that will convince his fiancee that all is well." that is not completely true, the Vedas support krsna being devoted to shiva actually, and shiva being the supreme, how come vishnu devotees always try to refute and deny it? there are scriptures proclaiming both, but Vedas are the center for the rest. check out the shiva purana, skanda purana, and linga purana, plus tamil saints' poetry and stories, and how shaivism was revived in Tamil Nadu u would be astonished on the stories....... but no one should tell someone how or who to worship as supreme, thats going over the edge.....respect and let go of pride, it only destroys....only the greatly learned scholars and sages should have the right to argue like this, because they know better not to get in fights or get tremendously angry.....

so u see Worship of God lets Him know that we Love Him and then He will gladly sanctify our goodness so that when we go out into the world, and help the needy, suffering, etc...we dont have to worry about the reactions of that work, only that we know God is protecting our souls from any negativity! Remember u (our jewish brother) do not believe in reincarnation and karma but we do, so theres where we're different concerning cosmology, but many concepts are the same. in the Torah the first commandment i believe it says to worship and honor the lord above all else correct? u see that is also what we believe, and then the other commandments are sanctified because of the FIRST ONE AND MOST IMPORTANT ONE..... U even said yourself that even if someone does a good deed they may not really mean it or do it for God's will and thus it will not be completely good. Remember how u kept talking of God's Will? So we believe the same, its like two different boats in the same ocean, only appearing different even though both are made out of same materials, its just like our religions, both appear different yet they are connected and made from the same source for different types of cultures.... let me speak on the negative actions though! No religious practice no matter what it may be, is protected from evil once they go back! the Supreme will banish the protection of karmic reactions once we fall back into what u would call sin, we call tamasic karma "the evil deeds"..... till next time be blessed......

so u see Worship of God lets Him know that we Love Him and then He will gladly sanctify our goodness so that when we go out into the world, and help the needy, suffering, etc...we dont have to worry about the reactions of that work, only that we know God is protecting our souls from any negativity! Remember u (our jewish brother) do not believe in reincarnation and karma but we do, so theres where we're different concerning cosmology, but many concepts are the same. in the Torah the first commandment i believe it says to worship and honor the lord above all else correct? u see that is also what we believe, and then the other commandments are sanctified because of the FIRST ONE AND MOST IMPORTANT ONE..... U even said yourself that even if someone does a good deed they may not really mean it or do it for God's will and thus it will not be completely good. Remember how u kept talking of God's Will? So we believe the same, its like two different boats in the same ocean, only appearing different even though both are made out of same materials, its just like our religions, both appear different yet they are connected and made from the same source for different types of cultures.... let me speak on the negative actions though! No religious practice no matter what it may be, is protected from evil once they go back! the Supreme will banish the protection of karmic reactions once we fall back into what u would call sin, we call tamasic karma "the evil deeds"..... till next time be blessed......

i am kinda interested in Judaism now, u gave some nice descriptions of your religion and hopefully u can see past my former ignorance....i am starting to understand the way Judaism believes in loving God, i think u all have this jewish dude all wrong here, he was describing the Jewish way of loving God, through His commandments, "loving others is obeying God therefore loving God," in devotional hinduism (as it is on this forum) we place the same regard in our traditions but with alot of emphasis on our Deity Worship as a prime duty of dharma..... shiva was truthful when he said in one of his posts: "dharma or God's commandments are to Love Him and Humanity" so what our doctrine says is u cannot have one without the other, and God Love sanctifies all actions automatically. not everyone who does good loves God u know......We dont believe people are actually "loving God" without worshiping Him as prime aspect of daily life, then we can go out with clean heart and help humanity in His name, that will show we truelly love God. without loving Him first, goodness is impartial and only builds up sattvic karma "good karma," which is not bad, but not eternal either..... we believe in the heavenly planets where the good souls go who've lived a good life here on earth.....most religions follow a path set up by an ancient god from these planets, that does not mean they are the Eternal Vishnu or Shiva (i'm respecting both deities here cuz i currently worship the latter).... In worshiping the Eternal One we can happily not worry about the endless struggle to uphold "righteousness" because we already are sancified by Sattva (pure goodness) by coming to the Lord first. Then and only then can we go out with joy and help the world, without worrying about the endless struggle for aquiring more good karma.....our karma is sancified and therefore no longer exists, only eternal service for the Lord exists. Our concept of the "soul" is to serve God first. because our very essence of the soul is divine servant of the Lord. By serving God we are serving the whole material and spiritual cosmos.....Vaikuntha and Mount Kailash shall be our homes /images/graemlins/smile.gif in this prayer if u listen carefully this is why we want worship most of all to perfect our goodness!: Namah Shiva Andranatha Chandranatha: great lord Shiva who has the splender of the moon and stars! rescue us from continual karma and rebirth, good and bad both are consuming our struggle for perfection!!! Through my worship of Your Spirit may You Take out the reactions of karma so that our goodness will be perfected forever, O Lord i come only unto You at this very moment and worship You only! True Goodness or ParaSattva can only be acheived through Worship and Adoring the Supreme, who alone can sancify all actions, and remove all reactions of death,rebirth,karma.... i look forward to hearing from u again u r very enlightening.....

i am kinda interested in Judaism now, u gave some nice descriptions of your religion and hopefully u can see past my former ignorance....i am starting to understand the way Judaism believes in loving God, i think u all have this jewish dude all wrong here, he was describing the Jewish way of loving God, through His commandments, "loving others is obeying God therefore loving God," in devotional hinduism (as it is on this forum) we place the same regard in our traditions but with alot of emphasis on our Deity Worship as a prime duty of dharma..... shiva was truthful when he said in one of his posts: "dharma or God's commandments are to Love Him and Humanity" so what our doctrine says is u cannot have one without the other, and God Love sanctifies all actions automatically. not everyone who does good loves God u know......We dont believe people are actually "loving God" without worshiping Him as prime aspect of daily life, then we can go out with clean heart and help humanity in His name, that will show we truelly love God. without loving Him first, goodness is impartial and only builds up sattvic karma "good karma," which is not bad, but not eternal either..... we believe in the heavenly planets where the good souls go who've lived a good life here on earth.....most religions follow a path set up by an ancient god from these planets, that does not mean they are the Eternal Vishnu or Shiva (i'm respecting both deities here cuz i currently worship the latter).... In worshiping the Eternal One we can happily not worry about the endless struggle to uphold "righteousness" because we already are sancified by Sattva (pure goodness) by coming to the Lord first. Then and only then can we go out with joy and help the world, without worrying about the endless struggle for aquiring more good karma.....our karma is sancified and therefore no longer exists, only eternal service for the Lord exists. Our concept of the "soul" is to serve God first. because our very essence of the soul is divine servant of the Lord. By serving God we are serving the whole material and spiritual cosmos.....Vaikuntha and Mount Kailash shall be our homes /images/graemlins/smile.gif in this prayer if u listen carefully this is why we want worship most of all to perfect our goodness!: Namah Shiva Andranatha Chandranatha: great lord Shiva who has the splender of the moon and stars! rescue us from continual karma and rebirth, good and bad both are consuming our struggle for perfection!!! Through my worship of Your Spirit may You Take out the reactions of karma so that our goodness will be perfected forever, O Lord i come only unto You at this very moment and worship You only! True Goodness or ParaSattva can only be acheived through Worship and Adoring the Supreme, who alone can sancify all actions, and remove all reactions of death,rebirth,karma.... i look forward to hearing from u again u r very enlightening.....

that is nice description of your deity, though i have to disagree with you by the laws of the Torah which your god describes, to me those arent peaceful loving laws, but kinda cruel, mind explaining the harsh laws of moses to us? and btw, how could u say praising and devotion is not important? everything has its end, but divine bliss is eternal and is the culmination of life's goal. When u are loving others, some are tainted, and some are cruel, which means your love is limited. that is like saying we should treat the demons equally as the gods even when they do evil they will only use it to their advantage and screw u over. We must all respect and love one another that is true, its part of our divine qualities and attributes, but you are hankering after selfish rewards when ur doing this inapropriately, because karmic actions whether good or evil are tainted by material energy, and it is only through devotion can selfless service (true goodness to all) without taint be acheived. Devotion is most important in life because it is falling in love with God, therefore all the beings associated with you are blessed everywhere u go to receive the same gift, the gift of eternal love.....our love is limited alone and cannot reach its end by itself, but when we reach out to God our love becomes endless and tears of compassion compell us to love deepest everything, the eternal becomes wide open to all creatures who hear us, and all benefit from associating with us.. ...we love others as a service to the Supreme, not desiring the rewards of goodness as u see it but because ultimately we want to bring everyone to the divine so in essence our love for others this way is much more transcendant than to just merely help others, in what way are we helping others just by being peaceful and good to them? what of eternal joy with us in the Supreme bliss always? something for u to think about next time u go out to help others /images/graemlins/smile.gif Devotionalists dont seek the limited goodness of the world, we seek loving the Lord, because in the Lord all creatures are blessed, therefore we are caring for all, and when we go out to help, we know it is to help them much more than merely "being good"......I care endlessly for all the souls, i ultimately help others to bring them to the ultimate bliss, i stay out of association with those who would cause me harm and say blasphemy about my beliefs.....

that is nice description of your deity, though i have to disagree with you by the laws of the Torah which your god describes, to me those arent peaceful loving laws, but kinda cruel, mind explaining the harsh laws of moses to us? and btw, how could u say praising and devotion is not important? everything has its end, but divine bliss is eternal and is the culmination of life's goal. When u are loving others, some are tainted, and some are cruel, which means your love is limited. that is like saying we should treat the demons equally as the gods even when they do evil they will only use it to their advantage and screw u over. We must all respect and love one another that is true, its part of our divine qualities and attributes, but you are hankering after selfish rewards when ur doing this inapropriately, because karmic actions whether good or evil are tainted by material energy, and it is only through devotion can selfless service (true goodness to all) without taint be acheived. Devotion is most important in life because it is falling in love with God, therefore all the beings associated with you are blessed everywhere u go to receive the same gift, the gift of eternal love.....our love is limited alone and cannot reach its end by itself, but when we reach out to God our love becomes endless and tears of compassion compell us to love deepest everything, the eternal becomes wide open to all creatures who hear us, and all benefit from associating with us.. ...we love others as a service to the Supreme, not desiring the rewards of goodness as u see it but because ultimately we want to bring everyone to the divine so in essence our love for others this way is much more transcendant than to just merely help others, in what way are we helping others just by being peaceful and good to them? what of eternal joy with us in the Supreme bliss always? something for u to think about next time u go out to help others /images/graemlins/smile.gif Devotionalists dont seek the limited goodness of the world, we seek loving the Lord, because in the Lord all creatures are blessed, therefore we are caring for all, and when we go out to help, we know it is to help them much more than merely "being good"......I care endlessly for all the souls, i ultimately help others to bring them to the ultimate bliss, i stay out of association with those who would cause me harm and say blasphemy about my beliefs.....

ahh i completely agree with the above poster, as i have understood, different traditions interpret Advaita and Dvaita differently, such as in mine, the Shaiva Siddhanta is "Shuddha Advaita," but not the Advaita of the impersonalits nor is it the shuddha advaita of vallaba acarya's doctrine. our philosophy means difference and inseparableness (not sameness), in other words the souls and the world are real and different, yet we are all dependant upon the Supreme, also inseparable because there is no where Shiva is not, He Supports the whole Cosmos by His all pervasiveness, so though we are different, we are still united with the Supreme. In Tamil Shaivite tradition we are not advaitists at all like the Kashmiris but ecstatic devotionalists just as our beloved saints were, singing the glories of lord Shiva as the ultimate goal, just as Vaishnavas sing the glories of lord Vishnu. i came here a few months ago just to try and reconcile differences between Shaiva and Vaishnava bhaktas for those who dont know much about the former, as i have read, the hare krishna founder kinda downgraded and hurt the Shaiva philosophy internally by some of his misinterpreted messages concerning us..... i'd like to give out a wonderful site of my tradition for all those interested in knowing more of our real traditions, and not the ones Prabhupada mistakenly describes..... www.shaivam.org

ahh i completely agree with the above poster, as i have understood, different traditions interpret Advaita and Dvaita differently, such as in mine, the Shaiva Siddhanta is "Shuddha Advaita," but not the Advaita of the impersonalits nor is it the shuddha advaita of vallaba acarya's doctrine. our philosophy means difference and inseparableness (not sameness), in other words the souls and the world are real and different, yet we are all dependant upon the Supreme, also inseparable because there is no where Shiva is not, He Supports the whole Cosmos by His all pervasiveness, so though we are different, we are still united with the Supreme. In Tamil Shaivite tradition we are not advaitists at all like the Kashmiris but ecstatic devotionalists just as our beloved saints were, singing the glories of lord Shiva as the ultimate goal, just as Vaishnavas sing the glories of lord Vishnu. i came here a few months ago just to try and reconcile differences between Shaiva and Vaishnava bhaktas for those who dont know much about the former, as i have read, the hare krishna founder kinda downgraded and hurt the Shaiva philosophy internally by some of his misinterpreted messages concerning us..... i'd like to give out a wonderful site of my tradition for all those interested in knowing more of our real traditions, and not the ones Prabhupada mistakenly describes..... www.shaivam.org

god i havent been on here for months, where have i been lately hehehe, but anyway i'm sorry to here about these situations u get into, since your partner is Tamil, is she a Shiva bhakta and your Krishna bhakta? I belong to the Tamil Shaivism and was always taught to respect the Vaisnava devotees and all other religions, because they're all eventual paths to reach the ultimate bliss....whatever path is accepted by the Supreme for our eventual ascention, the deeper we go, the deeper our divine love awakens, and our darshan (visions) of the Lord of love will become much clearer...... Instead of fighting u need to remember what is important to u both, and thats your relationship of love by the grace of the Supreme. Both Shiva and Krishna shower there grace upon you, do u think they would want their dear devotees quarrelling like this? remember this is not why they brought u together, remember how they praise each other and revere each other in the scriptures? krishna is very dear to shiva, and shiva is very dear to krishna, what to think of the devotees how dear they must be...... plz do not be hateful towards her, or her be hateful towards u, remember compassion and humility are our divine qualities as devotees, its what makes our devotion become pure in the sight of God. good luck to you both and may SadaShiva and MahaVishnu bless you with happiness..... Om Namah Shivaya......

god i havent been on here for months, where have i been lately hehehe, but anyway i'm sorry to here about these situations u get into, since your partner is Tamil, is she a Shiva bhakta and your Krishna bhakta? I belong to the Tamil Shaivism and was always taught to respect the Vaisnava devotees and all other religions, because they're all eventual paths to reach the ultimate bliss....whatever path is accepted by the Supreme for our eventual ascention, the deeper we go, the deeper our divine love awakens, and our darshan (visions) of the Lord of love will become much clearer...... Instead of fighting u need to remember what is important to u both, and thats your relationship of love by the grace of the Supreme. Both Shiva and Krishna shower there grace upon you, do u think they would want their dear devotees quarrelling like this? remember this is not why they brought u together, remember how they praise each other and revere each other in the scriptures? krishna is very dear to shiva, and shiva is very dear to krishna, what to think of the devotees how dear they must be...... plz do not be hateful towards her, or her be hateful towards u, remember compassion and humility are our divine qualities as devotees, its what makes our devotion become pure in the sight of God. good luck to you both and may SadaShiva and MahaVishnu bless you with happiness..... Om Namah Shivaya......

i know many liberal advaitic hindus and peoples of diff. cultures like to twist things around and say our holy stories are just symbolic, but devotionalists of shiva and vishnu should never resort to believing this, demons are very real entities, they arent made up from the mind or from someone's written pen. Our stories are real, our deities are real, they refer to our history and culture as a whole, its true stories our ancient history that have been handed down and celebrated to this day, there are over 1 billion hindus, and most follow some sort of vedic life. we learn from these hardships where demons rule the earth and the deities come to save mankind, we learn to love and worship life more only as we realize its fragile value and oneness with the Lord..... not all (asuras) demons are evil natured, theyre a race of deities not unlike the devas, many are against them, and have been since the dawn of time, some are not, such as Maya the mystical demon archetecht of the underworld, he was quite benevolent and befriended krishna and the pandavas in some quite fascinating stories from the Mahabharata. and like Ravana, especially the Rakshasas are an evil race, (not all) but most. the demon Indrajit (ravana's son) however was very intelligent and wise, often boasting of his greater spiritual knowledge even towards his father. that story is in Ramayana. ~Aum Namah Shivaya~