rudraksha

u see how he is? attacking others now lol! the "me better than u" factor seems to always confuse the person that he is better when it clearly says in Gita all paths are His....

u see how he is? attacking others now lol! the "me better than u" factor seems to always confuse the person that he is better when it clearly says in Gita all paths are His....

History of Hinduism ~ a Hindutva webpage..... http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/hindutwa/htv000/bra_reld.html i think we've been lied to by both vaishnavites and shaivites, and i want some honest opinions this time without us getting in over our heads with tradition! it appeares that our history of india was much different, i've read these things alot before but just thought they were hoaxes and ignored them, the shaivas definately stress that there religion is pre-aryan or pre-vedic, the indus valley peoples, the dravidians did have the aryan gods or vedas in there country until the aryans came over from the north, the dravidians before this worshiped only a pan-like shiva, and a earth mother-like kali devi....... The Aryans who followed Vedas also pre-date the modern Hindu revival, most of the texts after Vedas were from 700bc-1st century ad and on, but Vedas are much older, over 5000 years old, and Upanishads nearly as old. The Aryans or Vaidikas also followed a totally different tradition that has nothing to do with modern hinduism in any of its forms. There was no krishna, no rama, no shiva or shakti in their pantheon, krishna and rama formed later from bhakti movements. They were Polytheistic, they had no karmic or reincarnation beliefs, they believed in a Vedic Heaven, they sacrificed cows even and ate meat!....There is even a Vedic Revival going on now, maybe a couple of them, Arya Samaj is one in India, but their was also no concept of Monism or Brahman in the Vedas, or among the ancient Aryans (who came over from Indo-Europa, the Indo Europeans were made up of Persians, Slavs, Celts, Norsemen, Baltic and many others, the Aryans are one of the first and largest ethnic peoples of the world, this was all very interesting... For a real Vedic Revival religion, for us going back our roots, we need to take every piece of history and actually understand it. Both Dravidian and Aryan religion is long gone now, Buddhism and Jainism splintered this, then along came the Bhakti and philosophical movements further splintering Vedas, they were Anti-Vedic so to speak...... Vedic Revival Movement i would like to belong to someday when they get moving http://www.perfumedscorpion.org

History of Hinduism ~ a Hindutva webpage..... http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/hindutwa/htv000/bra_reld.html i think we've been lied to by both vaishnavites and shaivites, and i want some honest opinions this time without us getting in over our heads with tradition! it appeares that our history of india was much different, i've read these things alot before but just thought they were hoaxes and ignored them, the shaivas definately stress that there religion is pre-aryan or pre-vedic, the indus valley peoples, the dravidians did have the aryan gods or vedas in there country until the aryans came over from the north, the dravidians before this worshiped only a pan-like shiva, and a earth mother-like kali devi....... The Aryans who followed Vedas also pre-date the modern Hindu revival, most of the texts after Vedas were from 700bc-1st century ad and on, but Vedas are much older, over 5000 years old, and Upanishads nearly as old. The Aryans or Vaidikas also followed a totally different tradition that has nothing to do with modern hinduism in any of its forms. There was no krishna, no rama, no shiva or shakti in their pantheon, krishna and rama formed later from bhakti movements. They were Polytheistic, they had no karmic or reincarnation beliefs, they believed in a Vedic Heaven, they sacrificed cows even and ate meat!....There is even a Vedic Revival going on now, maybe a couple of them, Arya Samaj is one in India, but their was also no concept of Monism or Brahman in the Vedas, or among the ancient Aryans (who came over from Indo-Europa, the Indo Europeans were made up of Persians, Slavs, Celts, Norsemen, Baltic and many others, the Aryans are one of the first and largest ethnic peoples of the world, this was all very interesting... For a real Vedic Revival religion, for us going back our roots, we need to take every piece of history and actually understand it. Both Dravidian and Aryan religion is long gone now, Buddhism and Jainism splintered this, then along came the Bhakti and philosophical movements further splintering Vedas, they were Anti-Vedic so to speak...... Vedic Revival Movement i would like to belong to someday when they get moving http://www.perfumedscorpion.org

"Else, they can keep their views to themselves instead of trying to preach them to us." mhmm, once again this only proves your close-mindedness to everyone else, u see its u and ur silly followers who cause all this trouble and no one wants to listen to ignorant minds, i dont preach to anyone or was ever preaching, just explaining, those days of preaching are over because of rediculous evangelists such as yourself, with all your rambling who the hell can explain anything? anyways, this was just a waist of my precious time, u obviously have not studied Vedas, Vedic culture was NOT vaishnava culture thousands of years ago, all these forms of Hinduism now are just splinters coming out of original Vedism, both vaishnavism and shaivism, which of both i cant stand anymore, u've only proven me how stupid it is for any of these traditions to go on...........

"Else, they can keep their views to themselves instead of trying to preach them to us." mhmm, once again this only proves your close-mindedness to everyone else, u see its u and ur silly followers who cause all this trouble and no one wants to listen to ignorant minds, i dont preach to anyone or was ever preaching, just explaining, those days of preaching are over because of rediculous evangelists such as yourself, with all your rambling who the hell can explain anything? anyways, this was just a waist of my precious time, u obviously have not studied Vedas, Vedic culture was NOT vaishnava culture thousands of years ago, all these forms of Hinduism now are just splinters coming out of original Vedism, both vaishnavism and shaivism, which of both i cant stand anymore, u've only proven me how stupid it is for any of these traditions to go on...........

ok yasoda i'll have to explain the shuddhadvaita concept of formless since your not too familiar. it does not imply that God is just an abstract concept, force, whatever u want to call it, but an eternal consciousness beyond all our understanding, i think its the same in alot of other religions as well, such as Judaism and Islam, Hashem (yahweh) and Allah are devoid of form, worshiping forms is considered idolatry in their view lol, yes i know its rediculous as we see our statues as symbolic figures of the actual deity, NOT the deity itself, and i dont know how many times i've been verbally attacked by that response : P But what i am saying is if the Supreme Brahman is Beyond our understanding, that pure conscious God cannot be reached without, yes a form! so ParaShiva (the formless) transforms into RudraShiva, MaheshvaraShiva, and other manifestations even Goddess Durga Herself! (all the divine forms of the formless), and symbolically on earth as the Linga (a special stone representing Shiva held most sacred by the Shaivites). Rudraksha beads (tears of Rudra) and Holy Ash (transcendance from the material) are among other symbolic importance we wear...... So to us God is not an abstract principle like the Advaitists make it out to be, We can realize He is beyond our limited knowledge and know He manifested to bring the knowledge of Unity for all peoples.......When the Lord manifests, It is not physical body, but eternally brilliant (similar to Vishnu-tattva), and that is how we can know God, by the eternal self-devotion of our souls, by learning to worship Shiva's forms, and ultimately, the Formless Supreme, that devotion shall be unlimited bliss! Just think of worshiping the One beyond all things! an amazing experience...... It is also said those who revere Vishnu will get their permanent homes in Vaikuntha, because Vishnu and all his forms are most dear to Shiva. what a benevolent Lord indeed! Love and Shiva, there exist two things say the fools, Love is Shiva which no one understands, But when realized Love is Shiva, We shall sit in Love as Shiva. ~thirumular~

ok yasoda i'll have to explain the shuddhadvaita concept of formless since your not too familiar. it does not imply that God is just an abstract concept, force, whatever u want to call it, but an eternal consciousness beyond all our understanding, i think its the same in alot of other religions as well, such as Judaism and Islam, Hashem (yahweh) and Allah are devoid of form, worshiping forms is considered idolatry in their view lol, yes i know its rediculous as we see our statues as symbolic figures of the actual deity, NOT the deity itself, and i dont know how many times i've been verbally attacked by that response : P But what i am saying is if the Supreme Brahman is Beyond our understanding, that pure conscious God cannot be reached without, yes a form! so ParaShiva (the formless) transforms into RudraShiva, MaheshvaraShiva, and other manifestations even Goddess Durga Herself! (all the divine forms of the formless), and symbolically on earth as the Linga (a special stone representing Shiva held most sacred by the Shaivites). Rudraksha beads (tears of Rudra) and Holy Ash (transcendance from the material) are among other symbolic importance we wear...... So to us God is not an abstract principle like the Advaitists make it out to be, We can realize He is beyond our limited knowledge and know He manifested to bring the knowledge of Unity for all peoples.......When the Lord manifests, It is not physical body, but eternally brilliant (similar to Vishnu-tattva), and that is how we can know God, by the eternal self-devotion of our souls, by learning to worship Shiva's forms, and ultimately, the Formless Supreme, that devotion shall be unlimited bliss! Just think of worshiping the One beyond all things! an amazing experience...... It is also said those who revere Vishnu will get their permanent homes in Vaikuntha, because Vishnu and all his forms are most dear to Shiva. what a benevolent Lord indeed! Love and Shiva, there exist two things say the fools, Love is Shiva which no one understands, But when realized Love is Shiva, We shall sit in Love as Shiva. ~thirumular~

ok maybe both rudra and vishnu are the same Brahman, according to Narada he was confused with the same question when confronting both the deities, both were praying to the other. In the epics both Shiva and Vishnu are considered supreme respectively, at the end of Mahabharata after krishna leaves the earth i remember the words "whoever prays to any name of God, by that name will He come." but there really is no tradition extolling that though, advaitists see the ultimate Brahman as impersonal energy correct? i just couldnt except nondualism no matter how "universal" it sounds......is there tradition that extolls both forms equally? i would like to know......

ok maybe both rudra and vishnu are the same Brahman, according to Narada he was confused with the same question when confronting both the deities, both were praying to the other. In the epics both Shiva and Vishnu are considered supreme respectively, at the end of Mahabharata after krishna leaves the earth i remember the words "whoever prays to any name of God, by that name will He come." but there really is no tradition extolling that though, advaitists see the ultimate Brahman as impersonal energy correct? i just couldnt except nondualism no matter how "universal" it sounds......is there tradition that extolls both forms equally? i would like to know......

i dont worship forms as supreme, vishnu is a form, the para brahman is formless.....its the same Brahman extolled by Vedas and Upanishads that the Advaitists revere only theyre more impersonalist, but i view the Transcendant lord and lady as One Whole Pure Consciousness, the lord and lady are its direct manifestations......the Brahman is Encompassing all, it is Pure Omnipresent Consciousness......that is a big difference in philosophy compared to limited form in the heavens is it not? Formless Brahman is the philosophy in Upanishads and Vedas is it not? most hindus revere this philosophical position over the others, whether they are shaivite or not! so is majority wrong?

i dont worship forms as supreme, vishnu is a form, the para brahman is formless.....its the same Brahman extolled by Vedas and Upanishads that the Advaitists revere only theyre more impersonalist, but i view the Transcendant lord and lady as One Whole Pure Consciousness, the lord and lady are its direct manifestations......the Brahman is Encompassing all, it is Pure Omnipresent Consciousness......that is a big difference in philosophy compared to limited form in the heavens is it not? Formless Brahman is the philosophy in Upanishads and Vedas is it not? most hindus revere this philosophical position over the others, whether they are shaivite or not! so is majority wrong?

u are not much of a devotee of anything if u keep flaming someone u dont even know, i was trying to make amends but no, u have to keep on at it, i dont think krsna is very glad to have u as devotee, u make no sense whatsoever now u are saying i am un-knowledgeable (though i have been practicing all my life with various traditions and study all the time), not following dharma (i cant even attempt to be a bad example at life i'm anti-social for the most part and dont wish to take part in mundane things, spirituality is really the only thing i consider important, i follow alot more than only 4 prescribed principles! why is tolerance and humility not a prescribed principle?!) shiva purana does not extol shiva (lmao, the whole purana extolls the supremacy of shiva, clearly u have not read a single passage, vishnu is the divine child according to this purana), who are u then? what kind of authority do u have over any of this? u are not vishnu devotee or act anything like it, look how everyone else is here very tolerant and forgiving and can argue decently, and true to their lord, but u are different, there is something missing with u, its called purity, all gaudiyas must have purity before even becoming devotee or they are not worthy, and your lord wants u to be worthy so as not to fall back into material existence, and if u still think i was flaming u, u have much to learn about spiritul debate............. i have not even described much of my beliefs at all, and u judge me regardless, i grew up as a gaudiya so dont give me these lies gaudiyas dont act like this, i can become gaudiya again right now and u'd still say something back lol it seems to me u have a hate for other religions that dont agree with u, even if they respect u, u have no respect for them, i always tell vaishnavas i pray to lord vishnu, i have no problem with that, u have problem with people praying to lord shiva dont u, but why? just because we see him as supreme? do u think this is something new? these two gods have been worshiped since time immemorable! the growing eradication of shaivism is due to the overwhelming propaganda of vaishnavism all over the world, its become quite evangelistic nowadays, which is why most of the world has never known about the other more tolerant cultures in india sadly......

u are not much of a devotee of anything if u keep flaming someone u dont even know, i was trying to make amends but no, u have to keep on at it, i dont think krsna is very glad to have u as devotee, u make no sense whatsoever now u are saying i am un-knowledgeable (though i have been practicing all my life with various traditions and study all the time), not following dharma (i cant even attempt to be a bad example at life i'm anti-social for the most part and dont wish to take part in mundane things, spirituality is really the only thing i consider important, i follow alot more than only 4 prescribed principles! why is tolerance and humility not a prescribed principle?!) shiva purana does not extol shiva (lmao, the whole purana extolls the supremacy of shiva, clearly u have not read a single passage, vishnu is the divine child according to this purana), who are u then? what kind of authority do u have over any of this? u are not vishnu devotee or act anything like it, look how everyone else is here very tolerant and forgiving and can argue decently, and true to their lord, but u are different, there is something missing with u, its called purity, all gaudiyas must have purity before even becoming devotee or they are not worthy, and your lord wants u to be worthy so as not to fall back into material existence, and if u still think i was flaming u, u have much to learn about spiritul debate............. i have not even described much of my beliefs at all, and u judge me regardless, i grew up as a gaudiya so dont give me these lies gaudiyas dont act like this, i can become gaudiya again right now and u'd still say something back lol it seems to me u have a hate for other religions that dont agree with u, even if they respect u, u have no respect for them, i always tell vaishnavas i pray to lord vishnu, i have no problem with that, u have problem with people praying to lord shiva dont u, but why? just because we see him as supreme? do u think this is something new? these two gods have been worshiped since time immemorable! the growing eradication of shaivism is due to the overwhelming propaganda of vaishnavism all over the world, its become quite evangelistic nowadays, which is why most of the world has never known about the other more tolerant cultures in india sadly......

worshiping maybe 3-5 times a day, saying prayers, chanting, playing devotional music, actually having FUN with devotion will teach true love of God, not vigorous days of nonstop chanting, man that was hard on my faith, why would any deity choose to depress their followers thats just wrong..... Shiva is pleased no matter how u come to him or how much u devote as long as the love is pure, and will bless u unimaginably, and in the end u shall reach the eternal loving abode within Shiva's light : ) at first i thought this site was for all hindus, guess not though : (

worshiping maybe 3-5 times a day, saying prayers, chanting, playing devotional music, actually having FUN with devotion will teach true love of God, not vigorous days of nonstop chanting, man that was hard on my faith, why would any deity choose to depress their followers thats just wrong..... Shiva is pleased no matter how u come to him or how much u devote as long as the love is pure, and will bless u unimaginably, and in the end u shall reach the eternal loving abode within Shiva's light : ) at first i thought this site was for all hindus, guess not though : (

i think the most important reason why i left vaishnavism was the way they make it seem as if our material blessings are evil, and we should do away with them, it just didnt seem like a loving enough faith for me, the vishnu i know is not like that, and i consider him one of the highest deities and worship him in that way. thats why when i found shiva i gladly found the lord of love i was looking for, he never made me ashamed of anything i had, or what i was attached to, as long as it wasnt a bad thing, and he blessed me incomparibly, i have a wonderful lifestyle now, i was severly depressed, hurt, abandoned, and messed up before........... He showed me personally He was the supreme in a loving way, the shaiva saints brought back the comfort of life and God back into Hinduism, u cant find that very easily in the various sects, not at all......it puts alot of pressure on us to devout too intensely, sooner or later it gets to us and we lose faith and drop out from the love of our deity. With my path i can devout as much as i need to, especially on the holy days like shiva ratri, and always know the lord is there to bless and save me.......for is it not loving the lord rather than ritualistic performance that counts the most???

i think the most important reason why i left vaishnavism was the way they make it seem as if our material blessings are evil, and we should do away with them, it just didnt seem like a loving enough faith for me, the vishnu i know is not like that, and i consider him one of the highest deities and worship him in that way. thats why when i found shiva i gladly found the lord of love i was looking for, he never made me ashamed of anything i had, or what i was attached to, as long as it wasnt a bad thing, and he blessed me incomparibly, i have a wonderful lifestyle now, i was severly depressed, hurt, abandoned, and messed up before........... He showed me personally He was the supreme in a loving way, the shaiva saints brought back the comfort of life and God back into Hinduism, u cant find that very easily in the various sects, not at all......it puts alot of pressure on us to devout too intensely, sooner or later it gets to us and we lose faith and drop out from the love of our deity. With my path i can devout as much as i need to, especially on the holy days like shiva ratri, and always know the lord is there to bless and save me.......for is it not loving the lord rather than ritualistic performance that counts the most???

the simple fact is that some scripture glorifies shiva, some shakti, some vishnu, and others may even glorify ganesha, skanda, lakshmi, jesus, jehovah, allah, and so on... a vaishnava devotee of the madhva school would also heavily disagree with the gaudiyas about krishna's supremacy over his other forms..... just as i am doing, and u are doing, when devotionalism becomes the top priority, and the utmost path to God, one must understand, decide, and realize who and what they see as the Supreme. There is both evidence for many deities being supreme from the goddess Diana to the deity of Mithra. should we simply ignore these truths and say we know the truth blindly? the reason i worship and glorify Shiva is because of what my saints experienced, their lives, their history, and their doctrine speak to me beyond what any other religion/philosophy has ever done..... read about shaiva siddhanta and how it was revived, u'll like it, at least consider studying some, it wouldnt hurt would it? and so with my philosophy i study the scriptures, just as with your philosophy of chaitanya u study the scriptures, we'll both agree on some things while disagreeing with others, such as the nature of God....I do believe wholeheartedly in the Shiva Purana and Shiva Stotras like Mahimna, Ravana, etc....the Thirumular is the purana of devotional hymns, while the Periya Purana is the purana of shaiva saints lifetime, we hold these even higher than Vedas, or any other text for that matter, so in a sense, u didnt look into why i believe the way i do, or any other reason, u just thought i followed Vedas, i can see Shiva as supreme in Vedas but u cannot, u see Vishnu...... the devotees on each side argue too much, but if we dont learn from each side, it'll just get worse. U may not believe this but i started out as a hare krishna, very very devoted too......as i studied more i found other sides to hindu culture, why were there other devotees like for goddess shakti? and shiva? and it attracted me alot more than the stern vaisnava culture, its alot different for shaivas, we feel happy about our material blessings from the lord, they are our blessings, and knowing that we can still be attached to God through knowing those are our blessings......

the simple fact is that some scripture glorifies shiva, some shakti, some vishnu, and others may even glorify ganesha, skanda, lakshmi, jesus, jehovah, allah, and so on... a vaishnava devotee of the madhva school would also heavily disagree with the gaudiyas about krishna's supremacy over his other forms..... just as i am doing, and u are doing, when devotionalism becomes the top priority, and the utmost path to God, one must understand, decide, and realize who and what they see as the Supreme. There is both evidence for many deities being supreme from the goddess Diana to the deity of Mithra. should we simply ignore these truths and say we know the truth blindly? the reason i worship and glorify Shiva is because of what my saints experienced, their lives, their history, and their doctrine speak to me beyond what any other religion/philosophy has ever done..... read about shaiva siddhanta and how it was revived, u'll like it, at least consider studying some, it wouldnt hurt would it? and so with my philosophy i study the scriptures, just as with your philosophy of chaitanya u study the scriptures, we'll both agree on some things while disagreeing with others, such as the nature of God....I do believe wholeheartedly in the Shiva Purana and Shiva Stotras like Mahimna, Ravana, etc....the Thirumular is the purana of devotional hymns, while the Periya Purana is the purana of shaiva saints lifetime, we hold these even higher than Vedas, or any other text for that matter, so in a sense, u didnt look into why i believe the way i do, or any other reason, u just thought i followed Vedas, i can see Shiva as supreme in Vedas but u cannot, u see Vishnu...... the devotees on each side argue too much, but if we dont learn from each side, it'll just get worse. U may not believe this but i started out as a hare krishna, very very devoted too......as i studied more i found other sides to hindu culture, why were there other devotees like for goddess shakti? and shiva? and it attracted me alot more than the stern vaisnava culture, its alot different for shaivas, we feel happy about our material blessings from the lord, they are our blessings, and knowing that we can still be attached to God through knowing those are our blessings......

i refuse to post due to your crazy ignorance on the subject, u clearly have no idea what Shiva is, if u would have read more clearly, Formless Brahman IS Shiva, Rudra is the eternal form from the eternal Formless, they are ONE and the same.....and so is Mother Shakti, she is ultimately one with Para Shiva.... clearly there is no reason to argue with fanatic hare krishnas, i thank u for your post i_love_krishna i agree with u but not this guy.... i do not believe in the padma purana or any text that seeks to downgrade my philosophy or God, if thats so wrong than u can have me shot if u dont like it.....i simply believe from my personal search and evidence that SHIVA is supreme and is beyond form as my saints have said, u simply believe the other way around, okkkk? end of story...... Vaishnavism is strictly an Aryan religion as is Vedanta, there are pretty new actually. the Dravidians and Indus Valley Civilization have been proven to exist before all this, and there is only evidence of Shiva-Shakti images, who were also known in different parts of the world as the ancient horned god/mother goddess of the moon, etc......where was vishnu worship in those times? why no evidence? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

i refuse to post due to your crazy ignorance on the subject, u clearly have no idea what Shiva is, if u would have read more clearly, Formless Brahman IS Shiva, Rudra is the eternal form from the eternal Formless, they are ONE and the same.....and so is Mother Shakti, she is ultimately one with Para Shiva.... clearly there is no reason to argue with fanatic hare krishnas, i thank u for your post i_love_krishna i agree with u but not this guy.... i do not believe in the padma purana or any text that seeks to downgrade my philosophy or God, if thats so wrong than u can have me shot if u dont like it.....i simply believe from my personal search and evidence that SHIVA is supreme and is beyond form as my saints have said, u simply believe the other way around, okkkk? end of story...... Vaishnavism is strictly an Aryan religion as is Vedanta, there are pretty new actually. the Dravidians and Indus Valley Civilization have been proven to exist before all this, and there is only evidence of Shiva-Shakti images, who were also known in different parts of the world as the ancient horned god/mother goddess of the moon, etc......where was vishnu worship in those times? why no evidence? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

i suggest the vaishnavas actually do some research on the different traditions of india before they just right out deny them and say their untrue...... that is totally biased geez....

i suggest the vaishnavas actually do some research on the different traditions of india before they just right out deny them and say their untrue...... that is totally biased geez....

i have given the sources, did i not say the shaiva puranas? they extoll shiva as supreme, it is one of the largest religous traditions in the world, also the oldest of the hindu traditions, u simply just have not done your research, u have only looked in vaishnava texts, there are many shaiva texts that describe why Shiva is supreme, not vishnu, example: Sveshvatara Upanishad is an easy access text.... www.shaivam.org and urday.com to read different puranas... in vedas vishnu is just a minor solar god, nothing much there, all the devas in Veda extoll the formless Brahman, which is Shiva. Vishnu has form and so is limited, he did not know the nature of God in the beginning and neither did brahma. Rudra is just a form of the Supreme Shiva, thats why its confusing in stories....God is highest and therefore should be honored as the most transcendant beyond form. hard to grasp isnt it