yasodanandana

"Because if you guys know that an image of human was taken from an image of God."

••••every image comes from the image of god, if god had not in one of his manifestation the image of a lion, from where the lion form comes?... from matter? satan? maya?

(haribol dear friend druze... i appreciate you so much, thanks to be here with this interesting discussion)

our God is not krsna... but radha krsna.... she's krsna tattva not jiva

oh hare krishna prabhu!!

"Sometimes it is intense and people notice. Sometimes it is just a passing thought at the supermarket."

.... no, transcendental means "beyond",,, so if one comes to transcendence there's no question of not be aware and conscious of it.. and of coming back

But are we supposed to have a transcendent experience?

••••••religion means transcendence... but the transcendence manifest itself also in ways that materialists do not recognise as transcendence. Like krsna where he was in the earth.. not everyone recognized that he was god

I've never had one.

••••of course, you are asking basic things, if you were in transcendence you were our master not one who asks

Most people don't have one.

•••••because thy do not practice transcendence

We go to church, synagogue, temple, and have friends.

••••possible.. going to the school and not studying gives these results

We like the people and try to live a good life. I think thats the basic experience of most people.

••••••yes.. it is already very good, but not enough and not transcendental

"how do i know which devotee has a spiritual master?"

•••asking to him... actually the world "devotee" means "devoted to krsna through the service to the spiritual master"

"what do i say and do?"

••••i have said it, be practical, in this way you will show your real love to krishna

" when it comes fcae to face I get nervous"

••••you will see krsna exactly when you'll be ready.. no worry about it, start from the basic... guru, sadhus association, basic principles, chanting hare krishna.. simple.

"how do i find spiritual guidence from a spiritual master or guru? i feel as though my entire life i have been searching for God/Krishna.i am addicted to Him and cannot fathom being seperated. but where can i find someone to help guide me? "

•••••no problem... every devotee who has a pure spiritual master can (or must) bring you to his gurudeva, this is the natural procedure.. next you will know from direct experience, ask questions, advices and so on.

it is a very practical thing, you are searching for a good doctor... i have, you are searching for a pure master.. i have... go and see yourself.

I am disciple of Srila BhaktiVaibhava Puri Maharaja, if you want more informations i will give.

"If one is givig me Krsna, I may well ask for formal initiation"

••••you must ask

"and he (she) may well comply or reject such the proposal. In this context, this does not matter, for guru is far beyond formal certification of such a relationship"

••••initiation is not only a formality... the procedure of teaching and learning is more important, but not to the excess that initiation is only a formality. No acharya thinks like that and every bona fide master in our story gives harinama/diksa or sends the disciple to another to take harinama/diksa

"Haridas Thakur was not formally initiated by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, but is the non-application of the diksa adjective even noteworthy?"

••••••exception... obvious exception

" Formal initiation is not disregarded, because it is part of the sadhana bhakti process of Srila Rupa Goswami. But the "happening" is natural and not contrived in any way"

••••••yes natural... one approaches a guru and asks for initiation and instructions, very natural. A legitimate desire of the disciple and a duty for the master. Who teach gives also shelter, directly or bringing to his master.

My point is that, being these distinctions saint and bonafide there's no need to avoid or to be overly careful.

if one desires initiation, we approve it, very good.. we have to avoid the association of fake gurus, not to be careful when we meet a paramahamsa. "Prabhu.. give me everything you want please!!!!"

"I am an idiot. "

••••i protest... you are a devotee!!

"When I read the first line that all avataras of Lord are not IDENTICAL"

••••we can say more!! not identical, identical means two objects.. one apple and another apple and they're identical.. the avataras are the SAME PERSON (=krsna) displaying different qualities in different intensity and quantity...

"at one time in the past there was no other religion but sanatana dharma only. that is now called hinduism"

••••it is not exact for me.. hinduists now accept between them things that i and vaishnavas do not accept as "eternal dharma" or even "dharma".... if one who says that the ultimate reality is brahman, that paramatma and bhagavan are maya.. i do not consider them dharmic... so i respect all branches coming from vedas on the dialogue plane, but i do not belong to the same religion of who says for example that an avatar is a material manifestation of the spiritual brahman only to facilitate the more ignorants.

Even if we have the same dresses, similar archana, same books.. vaishnava conception is more similar to christianism (for example) than to "hindu" mayavadis. Are Hare Krishna Christians?... a little bit, because they respect the commandments given in the bible and the teaching of christ as a subproduct of following the gita. Are Hare Krishna Hindus? a little.. as i have already explained

"why not support hindu nationalism?"

•••••because it is a nationalism... from a dictionary: "a patriotic feeling... an extreme form of this.... exaggerated or aggressive patriotism..... excessive or prejudiced support or loyalty for one's cause or group or sex"

How a spiritualist has to be a part of it? He's putting attention on the soul, not on the body, family, religion, nation... a spiritualist supports the NAMA.. krsna nama, ram nama. And obviously many of the nationalist issues are not for nama, they are dor the matter, maya.. so why support as a whole? If you chant "raghupati raghava raja ram.." i am with you, if you kill and destroy to do this i go away.

" they still value this dharma and want a secure land for hinduism in the birth place of hinduism. so what is wrong about it?"

•••••the way is wrong.. to answer to fanatics as other fanatics and to mix proud and material motivation to this. And, first of all, to not think that the main task is to go back to godhead, so we have to chant nama more as we can.. this world will never be perfect, let us find the perfection in vaikunta, not in india, america, italy and so on.

"even chaitanya has said that one born in india is a special soul."

••••i am extremely convinced BEING a DISCIPLE of TWO INDIANS.. prabhupada and my guru maharaja... so please, teach us spirituality!! for religion wars we westerners are superspecialized, we know how they go on, at the end everyone is sinful and evil.

"just as an apple or an orange cannot says it is not a fruit, so an HK cannot say he/she is not a hindu."

••••as i have said, the hindus are putting between fruits things that for me are "nails" and "screws" like the mayavadis... so i am not in a team with them, but not because i hate them, but because i do not see anything in common, They are saying that the thing i live most... krsna... is maya (=what is not), So how i can belong to the same religion?

"jesus worshipper is not a hindu. "

••••yes.. but hes more close to the vaishnava siddhanta than a mayavadi!! So, wich is the system to make religious groups? i think on religious ideas, so why i am in a group (hinduism) with people with ideas opposite to mine?

" This hindu meaning of secularism is different from the western meaning of secularism"

•••••please explain to me.. in italian religious language "secular" means material... "secolo" or "saeculum" in latin means "century".. so there's contrast between values belonging to the "secolo.. century...", or limited in time, and eternal ones SANATANA.

So hearing you sayng that sanatana is secular, or eternal is limited in time is very strange. But maybe is a language thing.

"krishna said arjun to fight adharma. arjun finally said:

"karishye vachanam tava"

arjun was a vaishnav, an HK"

••••vaishnav means to SURRENDER to the bona fide spiritual master belonging to parampara, like arjuna have done. So you cannot decide what is to serve krsna or ramachandra by your self, you have to ask to a representative, My spiritual master have said that the only medicine for the disease of the world is nama, never adviced to have part in nationalisms, never adviced to fight for ayodya's temple and so on. The same said Prabhupad. Krsna comes in this yuga as chaitanya mahaprabhu leaving the chakra at home and using only the nama as a weapon, Read the story of jagai and madai.

So arjuna has the intruction to fight (other indian/hindus!!!!!:-)), i not.

"krishna has never said any one to destroy all varnas of the society, and simply keep brahmanas"

••••so if there's pure ksatryas, pure as arjuna, ordered directly by krsna or guru maharaja to do this it is ok for me.... if we are speaking of hindu politicians or exagitated people better they do not touch even an hair. Ksatrya is first of all a servant of a pure king, and king is a servant of pure brahmanas... where are they? Where are ksatryas? I have to be an hindu to support some poor conditionated people called hindu going against some poor conditionated people called muslims? If you have injustice vote for a better govern in india, better police, better surveillance and so on. Why bother krsna, rama, narasimha, chaitanya.... allah... christ?

"why not recognize who is friend and who is foe of HK's"

••••• i judge personally... if you hurt me you are an enemy, not that you are an enemy because you're muslim.

so, madhav, if you want to follow sanatana dharma i can give you the address of my "sanatana dharma" gurudeva... ask to him if you can go to be the new "arjuna" . Sanatana dharmi is one who is following, not one who is born hindu.

"May GovindA lead you to right knowledge"

••••thanks prabhu.. but please help Him with intelligent concept not offences

"To believe that GovindA becomes different things is to believe...."

••••no one says that govinda becomes different things (please explain where in my message i have said it)....

krsna displays all the complete features of god

krsna when acts as vishnu displays less features

not so difficult.... the comment of prabhupada you put in the message does not contraddict what i have said:

"The majestic manifestation of Krsna is Narayana, Lord of Vaikuntha, whose subjective portion is Karanodakasayi Vishnu, the prime cause, whose portion is Garbhodakasayi. Ksirodakasayi is again the subjective portion of Garhhodakasayi Visnu."

manifestation... portion... portion.... portion... this gives value to my words.

And (i am not initiated but not by an iskcon master) please say what master says that vishnu is not krsna (in your meaning)

"This is a dangerous misunderstanding among HKs.

Neither did Srila Prabhupada teach like the way you understood.

There is no difference in the different avatars of GOD. All avatars of GOD are IDENTICAL."

••••this is definitely a mistake... identical is a word non existing in tha spiritual world, krsna is krsna, balaram is balaram, narasimha is narasimha and so on.

1st of all i do not see in all the gaudya maths(ISKCON included) any avversion for any avatara, for us ramachandra is very dear, we say the last prayer of the day to narasimhadeva etc... so i do not know where you have seen this lack of respect.

Krsna is the SUPREME among all the personalities of Godhead.. supreme because he displays more qualities, features, rasas in His original (govindam ADI purusham) syamasundara form, than, for example, when'he's acting as mahavishnu, varaha, vamana, kalki and so on. So there's not superiority or inferiority.... there's a full display of the qualities of god and partial displays, the person (krishna) is the same. Exactly like you.. when you go to the job you display some features, behaviour and abilities, when you are with friends others, when you are with sons others, when you are with wife others, when you deal with one who's aggessive with you other ones. So, same person.... different way to show his personality.. it is a mistake to say that every "manifestation" is identical , or that the persons are different and one good, one bad or so... but it is also wrong to negate that when you are in the family, with your beloved sons, wife, intimate friends and parents, this is not the most complete display of your qualities, the "original" because it is the origin of all your behaviours, and the sweetest and nicest way to know and love you. So this is krsna and vishnu.. not that one's good, one's bad.. krsna simply dispalys more and more inimate.

And this is in line with prabhupada's teachings.. and it is very logic also.

" Lord Narayana does not lose his SATCHITANANDA Rupam at any time"

•••••wich hare krishna is saying this? haribol!!!

"Radha is same as Laxmi Devi only forms are different."

••••laksmi comes from radha... the same as krsna and vishnu.. not that one's spiritual or another is material, one good one bad, simply different display of rasas and qualities.

" so is Radha and Laxmi Devi Identical."

••••identical is not exact..... as i have explained..

"krsna is the only one" and "all them are identical" are both two very bad misunderstanding, that even if they seem different, they lead to impersonalism.. mayavadism.. atheism, because in both cases we are negating the VARIETY in the god's personality..

so you have a false belief of what is the average idea of avataras and expansions in IskCon.... or you have spoken with a very neophite and uninformed devotee.

But please abstain in future to say false things about krsna bhaktas

(and the "devas & krsna" subject is completely different)

"there is no need to be influenced by adjectives at this stage. Guru is Guru, no adjectives, do not get bogged down in siksa or diksa"

••••why not? if the devotee is pure one can ask for siksa (teachings).. and surely for diksa if he's not already initiated.

What is the problem if one sees a pure bhakta and he desires to be initiated? It is necessary.

We have to be careful, not frustrated

a holiday is without doubt better than go to job!!

JAYA ALL!!

(sarira abidya-jal,  jodendriya tahe kal!!)

i cannot suggest anything about your path because i only know it vaguely, so you can ask to your Guru Maharaja to have an advice for your actual situation... and maybe, if you have no time to recite Sahasra nama Stotram (i know... beautiful and transcendental.. very long) please chant even for some minutes a day, maybe going to work, this HARE KRISHNA, HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA, HARE HARE, HARE RAMA, HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA, HARE HARE...

this is a bonafide practice.. complete, traditional, transcendental and affective also if done for few minutes a day... it is bringing back to Bhagavan thousands of people all over the world

BHAKTI(=prayer and meditation.. asking to krsna, trying to listen as you have already said)

plus

VEDANTA(=study of the features of the spiritual master in the scriptures.. and considering the example of previous sadhus and masters)

mind and intelligence are instruments given by the lord to use them at his service

you have to chant hare krishna mantra everyday on a regular basis, to associate as much as you can with devotees.. even on the web like are you doing now.. to pray krsna and to arrange yourself for meeting with a bona fide vaishnava spiritual master to have valuable advices and to take, soon or later, the spiritual initiation...

if you are not doing like that already, i recommend also to not take meat and intoxicants, to avoid a "karma surcharge" very dangerous for our spiritual life.

Maybe, if you chant some hare krishna rounds, try to do it in the early morning before to do anything else.

(i have used some "technicalities" supposing that you are already at a certain point of knowing of the science.. please feel free to ask if my explanations are not enough)

there's maya in excessive formalism and in excessive familiarity when they stop the higher purpose to chant and give the holy name.

I have brought the advice of my spiritual master and some "classics" (perfectly compatible with srila prabhupada's teaching).... any out of standard situation is "out of standard", "emergency", "particular" and has to be taken like this. And it is possible to see when the etiquette is lacking for the maya of the disciple or for the purpose to give a better service.

But we say in the song : "janme, janme, prabhu sei"... you are my master life after life. When, tecnically, in vaishnavism we use the world "friend" it is for other devotees approximately at the same our level.

With them we exchange realizations... they're not exactly disciples, because sometimes they teach us, they're non exactly masters because sometimes they learn by us... and, most important we can choose to follow or not when they suggest something to us (thing not possible with the spiritual master)

So, speaking from a madyam adhikari point of view, a master is not a disciple neither a "friend (in the average sense of a non formal relationship).

Spiritual master has to be worshipped as god, and as with god, the intimate and informal relationships are for very advanced people. I am in the ABC... i comunicate the ABC /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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"Some get quite offended when they read of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers treating Him as equal, but this is not necessarily offensive, because their relationship is as peers, the guru-disciple relationship does not exist there."

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of course.... they are friends... the spiritual master is a complete devotee.. he has masters, friends, disciples, so if a disciple is offended by that or even seeing that a siksa guru of their gurudeva is correcting him he's obviously wrong negating the variety of rasas in the person of the spiritual master. But it is not our point.

my main point was: "yes, possible.... but some classic etiquette does not hurt" ..... nothing incompatible with your's and theist's message (imho).

"Stupido! che non manchi de perfetione"

(stupid.. that you do not lack perfection!"

someone from italy 14th century has come in this forum, the meaning of what is saying is obscure, but it sounds like St.FrancisOf Assisi... (where i will go Sunday!!!)

"you conveniently left out the part where I said I feel more comfortable in a mosque or synagogue... But because in India many of the churches are catholic and DO have images, I left out church from my equation"

••••oh.. i am very sorry for my mistake.. i have no interest in win a debate with you or to mispresent your messages, so, please believe that i have simply made a mistake..

said this.. there's some sincere reasons to have adversions for religious images, they comes for previous conditionaments, wrong traditions and also from wrong and speculated images.. but if we examine the matter, if we have an image, god also has to have an image because he's greater than us...

so If we examine carefully the religions who says that god has not an image, it is easy to understand that they say that god has not a MATERIAL, HUMAN, CORRUPTIBLE, MORTAL image.. and they are right..

said this, from vedas, we can understand that beyond this there's the concept of a SPIRITUAL IMAGE and PERSONALITY

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"They will not consent to putting her on a separate alter or lower alter. Now tell me, in the kunj where Radha and Krishna are doing their Nitya Vilas... can Durga Devi gain entrance there? Does even Laxmi Devi have the adhikar? Sri Narsingadeva? What about Yashoda mata and Nanda Baba? "

•••••i understand exactly this problem, but i have to answer as i have already done, maya is great and she finds anything to make us less attached to krishna.. so i can easily believe that a neophite coming from the background you have depicted could have these misconceptions... but it appears to me not so strange, every neophite has problems and all problems are leading to impersonalism: "Krsna is one of many gods" is impersonal because it negates the unicity and exclusivity of the bhagavan's personality.. "krsna is god, in an empty paradise, without face, without entourage and friends, relationating with humans only as a father" is also impersonalism because takes out qualities from the personality of godhead..

maya.. very powerful for indians, italians, muslims, hebrews etc.. i am not a fanatic of india and indians, even if i like them with all my heart.. but i simply do not find that indians, coming from any religious background, have more difficulty to accept devotion than others.. i have my maya, you have your maya, they have their maya

i do not want to lose the association of any devotee.. ramananda roy says to mahaprabhu that it is the only unbearable disgrace in the universe... so please remain and preach to us

the subject can be easily reversed: if you find a companion that is so similar and compatible to have two lifes in complete symbiosys. this surely comes from activities done in the past... karma

exactly the same if two people are similarly bounded one to another but as enemies..

but we are in the bodily and mentally concepts..

speaking of souls there's surely in the universe one spiritual soul that, when she and you will come back to spiritual world, you and she will rediscover that you are eternally united in a particular service to krishna "oh my friend.. you have come back!! let us go for mangoes, krsna is hungry!!"

but to find a relationship between our earthly loves or friendships and the eternal ones in the spiritual world is almost impossible... a fantasy

Are you Brhaspati? Or Narada Muni?

•••••i am a worm swimming happily in the stool.. for this reason i have no fantasies to be a brahmana and simply i try to follow the simple and plain instructions given by prabhupada and my spiritual master...

so abandon the fantasies, krsna consciousness is science nor fantasy.. or, if you like to eat meat, eat it, chant hare krishna (it is your constitutional right even if you are a cannibal) after washing your hands and mouth....... but do not concoct your own religion.. this could be worst than eating meat

where comes from that idea that you are a ksatrya? are you in the school of a pure ksatrya master from a parampara'? have you a designation by a pure brahmin? under wich pure devotee king are you serving? are you practising hunting to learn fighting to protect humans, saints, sadhus by demons and asuras or it is for your sense gratification?

please answer ..... and continue chanting your japa rounds

""Prabhupäda: But if some of the ksatriya or the südras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill."

Seems very clearly spoken by Guru in accordance with sastra.

As for my personal experiance with Srila Prabhupada, fact is fact and relies on no extraneous outsiders faith to be so."

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••••no problem, if one is a ksatrya and a vaishnava with the same qualities of bhima, in the same times, places and circumstances.. he can do everything that bhima does... including killing and eating some dangerous beasts

otherwise.. regulative principles.. no difficulty