BDas

Dear Random, You say you accept Narayana Maharaja as your siksa guru. I have a letter in my posession from Srila Narayan Maharaja sent a few weeks ago praising Tripurari Swami and asking for a meeting with him in order to establish better relations between the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti and Swami Tripurari. You may not like Swami Tripurari yourself but I do not think your siksa guru would be pleased with your slanderous attitude toward a Vaisnava he has some respect for. In this and other correspondence Narayana M says that he has so many followers in name only who he cannot control and have an offencive understanding of Krishna consciousness. Are you one of those followers? Previously you admitted that 99% of your posts sounded like envious nonsence. In spite of this I know that at least 1% of the time you are introspective and Krishna conscious. Try to understand the spirit of my words here. Please use the introspection and KC that is within you to curb your slanderous mentality. This will be good for you and all concerned. And if you sincerly try to do this than I promise that if you so desire I will let you kick me in the face if we ever meet in the future. My heartfelt best wishes go out to you and yours. And I sincerely hope that someday we will find a way to get along. Hare Krishna, Brahma

Dear JN, I don't think I said anywhere that any type of sex outside of religious principals was not sinful. I only said that in the spirit of Mahaprabhu we should encourage everyone to practice KC regardless of their present lifestyle. Nitai went door to door and didn't consider who was qualified or not. He encouraged all to chant Hare Krishna and worship Mahaprabhu. I don't think it is a stretch to think that Nitai would do the same in the gay section of SF. BD:I could go on here about how you promote books contrary to the principals of Gaudiya vedanta on the website you named after Bhaktivedanta. JN:I don't have a website named after bhaktivedanta. There is a website on Hinduism, by the name IndiaDivine. It is an online reference library on Hinduism and Vedic philosophy. In a library you will find references from all schools of philosophy. You have been taught that every thing must be used for "converting" people, but that isn't how I was taught. A library is meant to provide complete knowledge on a subject, not to convert people to a particular view. BD: This is an obvious attempt to rationalize your way of adjusting the teachings to suit your own conception of preaching. I believe you are entitled to your own idea of how to present KC. And I am entitled to my way also. JN: But I do not change the teachings of my gurus and say, "You eat beef? That's fine. It is actually superior to being vegetarian. In the ancient times the Rishis ate beef. And in a secret unrecorded conversation Srila Prabhupada told me to eat beaf." BD:Where did all this come from. I never said to eat meat or that sex outside of religious principals was not sinful. But if you want to talk about meat eating; Srila Bhaktisiddanta said that he was prepared to serve meat in order to bring people in to hear the teachings of Mahaprabhu. In that spirit I would be prepared to perform the wedding ceremonies myself if I thought that it would bring the homosexual community in SF to the feet of Mahaprabhu. And whatever sin that may be incured I am willing to let it fall on my own head. JN:A disciple must repeat the instructions of his spiritual master As It Is. At least thats the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, whom I follow. BD: Prabhupads words are subject to interpretation and proper adjustment according to time and place. It is clear that you have made your own adjustments regarding the way you try to bring people to Bhakti with your so-called Vedic library approach. Preaching KC is risky busness. It is a risk to present mayavadi hinduism as a lead in to Krishna consciousness. But I guess you feel the risk is one you are willing to take. I am willing to take my own risks to try to give the teachings broader appeal in my own region. In this regard Srila Sridhar Maharaja writes: "Our Guru Maharajas movement was revolutionary. He would accept anyone who had the least attraction for Krishna consciousness and try to help them. In his mission sadhu sanga was provided for everyone. And sadhu sanga is the only valuable thing in this world".(From Follow the Angels.) Other than that there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. JN: not to the extent of saying homosexuality is not sinful. It is sinful, the scriptures say it is sinful, Srila Prabhupada says it is sinful, and nearly every world religion says it is sinful. Let them chant first and change themselves later through purification. But do not mislead them that their lifestyle is good. BD:Here again you say that I am saying sex outside of religious principals is not sinful. And that the Homosexual lifestyle is good. I never said this in even one of my posts. BD:Yes, I remember things very well. I remember in 1981 we approached the GBC and said all that we want is to remain in Iskcon and be able to have Sridhar Maharaja as our siksa guru. JN: That was before or after the devotees who received sannyasa-diksha from Srila Prabhupada had their names changed? What did they call it? "Having their sanyassa blessed..." Srila Prabhupada didn't bless them? BD: This is a big subject. But in general I will stick to the conception of KC and Guru tattva that I learned from a combination of Prabhupada, Sridhar M and Puri M. That conception involves receiving revelation and paying homage to a plurality of Gurus. And you can stick to your own conception of Prabhupad and Guru tattva or what you learned from the ritvik camp or the GBC. JN:Welcome does not mean they can change Srila Prabhupada's teachings, and now "homosex is not sinful", "homosex marriage is fine", etc. Why don't you see a difference between the two. BD: Here again you reply to words I have not said. I do not say homo sex is not sinful or that homosex marriage is fine. But I say again if I thought that by performing Gay marriages I could bring the homosexual community to the feet of Mahaprabhu than I would perform all the ceremonies myself and let the chips fall where they may. Hare Krishna, BDas

Prabhu, I often go down to the Bay Area. May I ask where your programs are and when? ys, Jayaradhe Dear Jayaradhe, Post your email address or send me one and I will contact you. Hare Krishna, Brahma

JN: Thank you for your nice post, but a couple points I need to mention: The discussion revolves around the Galva article, which makes such claims that Homosexuals are actually superior to others because they are free from attachments. And the article also says homosexuality is not sinful, that it was very common, and that it was accepted in Vedic culture as natural. We object to all of this. BD: When I posted the link I said I could not attest to the accuracy of everything on the Galva or Third Sex pages. What I do accept is the spirit of trying to include everyone in the KC movement. And what I do not accept is the spirit of narrow-minded fanaticism that forced the vast majority of Prabhupads disciples out of Iskcon. And to think that Homosexuality was not found in Vedic culture is beyond common sense. How do you think great kings like Yudhisthira would have treated homosexuals? Do you think he would have killed them or made a place for them? BD: And to the best of my knowledge (It was a long thread) no one said Prabhupad advocated homosexuality or any other type of sex outside of religious principals. JN: Your memory is a little short. Please go back and have a look. I will give you a hint. One person claimed there was a secret unrecorded conversation where Prabhupada said it was all right for his disciples to have homosexual relationships. BD: There are many unrecorded conversations with Prabhupad and I was party to a few. Prabhupad was both compassionate and pragmatic. He said to preach what is ideal even if everyone cannot follow perfectly. Ideally Prabhupad encouraged celibate devotion. In one place he said those who do not understand KC are permitted to get married and that marriage was a concession for those who could not control their senses. I can accommodate that Prabhupad may have given advice to this particular devotee as a concession while at the same time preaching the ideal. JN: A few of us objected to this nonsense, as it is very offensive to Srila Prabhupada. BD: You have your conception of what is offensive to Prabhupad and I have mine. I think it is most offensive to think that Prabhupad would have completely rejected or not made room for those who could not follow perfectly. Prabhupad said many times Krishna consciousness does not require a change of lifestyle but rather a change of heart. Chanting Hare Krishna in good association brings about this change. JN: Then they went on to say their guru's had sanctioned their homosexual relationship. To which we replied, such a guru is bogus. BD: In my opinion you have a very narrow conception of Guru. Guru Tattva means Krishna is the Guru who appears in a variety of forms. (Read Sri Guru and His Grace.) The Gaudiya conception of Guru and is beyond the narrow Iskcon conception where Guru is promoted as a particular body.(vapu) And if a Gaudiya Guru tries to help and encourage people in the homosexual community to chant Hare Krishna regardless of their lifestyle what is the harm? BD: Sinful people are advised to practice Krishna Consciousness in there own homes if they cannot live up to the standard of devotional life in the ashram. JN: We agree, yet the Galva article tries to justify their weaknesses and claim their vices are actually virtues! Go back and reread the thread. Your memory is too short. BD: Practically everyone on these discussion boards will make propaganda of some kind to try and promote a favorable impression of their choices. Iskcon devotees will overlook the faults of the society and those who left will point them out. Followers of Narayana M will promote their conception and followers of other Gaudiya gurus will do the same. If you think you are the almighty arbitrator who is going to set the record straight with his own conception of KC than I beg to differ. Krishna consciousness is unlimited and not confined to only one viewpoint. And that includes my own. JN: And in the attempt to justify their vices, they distort the teachings of the shastras and spread intentional lies to mislead the devotee community. BD: Again you have your practical view of the shastras and I have mine. I could go on here about how you promote books contrary to the principals of Gaudiya vedanta on the website you named after Bhaktivedanta. I suppose this is your way of being inclusive. OK, fine but I have ways of being inclusive also. Inclusion means getting people to chant Hare Krishna and perform devotional service. When possible I am sure you try to include Christians, Muslems, Shaktas, Shivites, Aryas, and whoever in your work there in Mysore. I live and preach in SF and I try to be inclusive as well. I believe this is in the spirit of Prabhupad and Mahaprabhu. If you disagee well so be it. JN: Now are you remembering things a little better? BD: Yes, I remember things very well. I remember 1981 we approached the GBC and said all that we want is to remain in Iskcon and be able to have Sridhar Maharaja as our siksa guru. Their reply was a familiar rant about our being against Prabhupad that they ended with a resolution that said no one in Iskcon can go to Sridhar M for siksa. "And that the San Jose Temple is not a part of Iskcon." My associates and I have adjusted very well to life outside the jurisdiction of the GBC and Iskcon. Still it is always to my regret that the GBC chose not to be inclusive because I would have preferred to remain in Iskcon where I served faithfully for so many years. Anyway I have a program here in SF and I chose to be inclusive rather than exclusive. And the gay or straight devotees who come I simply ask them to chant Hare Krishna and do their best. Everyone is welcome. Hare Krishna, BDas

Dear Friends, I have to say that I was amazed at the response I received from the majority on this thread. So much so that I went back and took a look at my previous posts. In doing so I found that in all the posts: No one advocated any kind of formal gay marriage be adopted in Iskcon or said homosexuality was not sinful. And to the best of my knowledge (It was a long thread) no one said Prabhupad advocated homosexuality or any other type of sex outside of religious principals. What others and I said is that there is room for all kinds of people in the Krishna consciousness movement. Even those devotees who can not follow all the sexual rules and regulations. Those persons who cannot be celibate are advised to avoid promiscuity and make a commitment with a single partner. This applies whether the devotee is gay or straight. And being gay or straight is not the qualification of a devotee. A devotee is a person who has faith in Krishna and even a sinful person can have faith and chant Hare Krishna. First comes sukriti and from that faith arises. From faith comes bhajana kriya or devotional practice, which if properly performed in good association can lead to anartha nivritti. Anartha nivritti means that one looses interest in sinful life. From there taste for the Name increases and that taste will take the devotee to Love of God. Sinful people are advised to practice Krishna Consciousness in there own homes if they cannot live up to the standard of devotional life in the ashram. Whatever their lifestyle they are advised to have faith in the Name and do the best they can. Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that most persons cannot swallow the whole pill of Krishna Consciousness all at once so it has to be broken up and fed to them over time. And that the Krishna Consciousness movement is not confined to any organization or location. The Krishna Consciousness movement is found where devotees are chanting with faith and trying to serve Krishna. Mahaprabhu wanted everyone to become part of the Krishna Consciousness movement. He approached Haridas in great anxiety as to how even non-moving beings like the trees could be included. Haridas comforted Mahaprabhu when he said that the Name would save everyone even non-moving beings like the trees. And that the echo heard when chanting in the forest was actually the sound of the trees chanting in reply. If the trees can chant in reply than certainly all types of people who have faith in Mahaprabhu can chant along with them. And we would do well to encourage everyone to chant along with Mahaprabhu and the trees regardless of their lifestyle or sinful activities. Hare Krishna, BDas

Bhaktisiddanta used a word to describe househld life that translated as "decomposed". Still he initiated householders and encouraged them in Krishna Consciousness. Prabhupad said many strong words against household life and at one point said he would sanction no more marriages. Sanctioned or not Prabhupad accepted and encouraged the service of his devotee householders some of whom married and divorced many times. Prabhupad made many concessesions and adjustments in order to sucessfully influence westerners to take to Krishna Consciousness. As I said before I believe if Prabhupad came to modern SF he would make further adjustments in order to engage those in the expanding homosexual community who were sincerely interested in KC to make advancement. I believe those adjustments would be something similar to what Tripurari Swami has writtten and has been posted on this thread. That is promiscuity would be discouraged and something akin to a monogomous relationship would be encouraged for those who want to advance in KC. Ultimately everyone is encouraged to become celibate at some stage in life. But we know not everyone will be able to do this. Of all the disciples who took this vow at initiation how many have been able to fully adhere to it? Perhaps one or two percent is my guess. The idea is that everyone should be encouraged to become KC and procede acording to their capacity. Hare Krishna, Brahma

Dear Maitreya and all, It is a fact that Prabhupad had many homosexual disciples. Are we to assume that Prabhupad did not know any of them were Gay? Another fact is that many of these devotees gave thier hearts and lives to the service of Prabhupad. Should we not acknowledge this? Times have changed and now these Gay devotees are coming out and expressing themselves. Should we not adjust to this? We say sex that is not in accordance with religious principals is a sin. This is true regardless of whether the sinner is Gay or straight. The sunday feast is full of such sinners the vast majority of whom are straight. But still we are happy to receive them into the fold regardless of their sins. As Gauracandra stated we should receive all devotees as brothers regardless of their sexual preferences. Faith and dedication to Krishna is a rare thing in this world and should be encouraged. All people should be welcomed into the fold. This is the spirit of our Prabhupad who gave the highest to the lowest. Some of the Gay devotees on this thread are already initiated by Prabhupad. Others who are uninitiated are accepting Prabhupad our most merciful acharya in their heart as Guru. Prabhupad is the Guru of all who want to follow Mahaprabhu. And wanting to follow Mahaprabhu makes anyones life auspicious even if that devotee does not follow everything perfectly. So I say to those inquisitors who want to know who is the Guru of the Gays. I say Prabhupad is their Guru and the Guru of anyone who takes even one step toward Nitai and Gauranga. Hare Krishna, Brahma

Yes, we just disagree........... Some authorities say that 5% of the population is Gay. I have heard others say 1 to 2% is the correct figure. I am inclined to accept the 1 to 2% figure over all. Here in SF the number is at 10% or more. SF is the Gay Mecca and people have been migrating here for that reason since the late 60s. The Gay voting population is put at 20% and thus they exert tremendous political power. Estimates on the percentage of Gay white men in SF go from 30 to 40% of the cities white male population. Therefore here it is almost impossible not to know or work with a Gay person in one way or another. To know someone as a person is different than knowing them as a statistic. I joined the movement at 18 in Pittsburgh and never knew a Gay person. In the movement I got to know many although at the time I was so naive that did not know they were Gay. I had Gay brahmacharies on my bus who I thought were great and holy devotees. Many are still serving in some capacity. I believe still they are great and holy devotees even though I know they are gay or you can say attracted in that way. I also know a few Gay sanyassis who have been celebate for over 25 years and have never been involved in scandal of any kind. Gays are coming out of the closit here in SF and all over the world. Gays, women and minorities are standing up for their rights and demanding to be heard. They have many stories to tell of discrimination and abuse. This is true in our Krishna Consciousness movement as well. Women will not be silenced and Gay devotees will come out. How we will adjust to include all types of diverse people into the over-all movement of Krishna consciousness is yet to be seen. But adjust we will, the history of the movement proves this. Women devotees are forcing their male counterparts to make necessary adjustments and address their grievences, and rightly so. Gay devotees will come out more and more and in doing so demand some kind of acceptance Krishna consciousness cannot be checked. Those who feel disinfranchised will start there own KC movements and in time those groups will in some way be accepted as part of the overall movement of Devotional Service. That is because thesis-antithesis and synthesis, is a fact of life. And we are now in the information age where everyone can get there message out without fear and intimidation. I remember a time when anyone who said they were a follower of Srila Sridhar Maharaja was considered a deviant outcast. Now we are more or less accepted even by most devotees in ISKCON. Hare Krishna, Brahma

Dear Jijaji, You wrote: Even so the scriptures condone the GRIHASTA ASHRAM for man to satisfy his sexual urges with family, children etc. as being conducive to spiritual advancement and that is simply MAN & WOMEN. Unaccepted sex...between man & women..? Maybe in an ashram or for those who want to attain higher than kanistha adhikari. Reply from BD: Prabhupad said many times that the Grihasta ashram is a concession for those who cannot control sex desire. To go beyond the kanistha platform one must control sexual desire and activity. That is possible for devotees who are either gay or straight if they apply themselves to KC in good association. JIJAJI: In the 1st place I don't accept that the 4 regs should be the standard for ALL humanity (no meat eating ..well yea) BD: Meat eating is allowed for some but again that is a concession. JIJAJI: Not everyone is meant to be a monk...but if you LOOK at Nature itself you will SEE OPPOSITES ATTRACTING EACH OTHER. Look at the BIRDS (watch out now Darwin) look at Butterflies. BD: True, but if we want to be fully KC we must begin by chanting and following the principals of vaiddhi bhakti. That of course means giving up sex for enjoyment. This must be done whether the devotee is Gay or straight. And there is some homosexuality in the animal world. JIJAJI: Which bring up another good point> How come ALL the Vedic deities are MALE with FEMALE Consorts? There are no GAY DEVATAS..! BD: Granted, the male and female model is the basic principal of existence. Still we find homosexuality sometimes in the world of the Devas. In the material world it is the result of a particular type of karma. BSST said the idea is to make the best use of a bad bargain. So regardless of our sexual attachments we must transcend our karma by becoming KC. JIJAJI:** Prabhupada would NEVER condone Gay relationships..sorry! BD: Prabhupad made many concessions that were previously unheard of in Gaudiya history. Ultimately he even accepted divorce and remarrying as well as made other innovations in relation to engaging women and we very fallen males in KC. Therefore I believe that Prabhupad would and did make concessions regarding homosexuality in the Krishna Consciousness Movement. Had he come to SF today, a city that now boasts the largest Gay population in the world, I believe he would make adjustments that would enable Gay and lesbian devotees to feel comfortable in Krishna’s service. JIJAJI: There were many Gay's in Iskcon and they really seem to have been the one's to have screwed up a lot of things. BD: The vast majority of Iskcon leadership is straight. They must take the blame for what transpired over the years. Their duty was to protect the children and devotees in general from problems and predators regardless of whether those predators were Gay, BI, or straight. At New Vrndavana in 1973 Prabhupad said the biggest problem in Iskcon was the fact that we were unable to keep the men and women apart. Does this mean that men and women were the problem or something else? During his manifest presence Prabhupad never said homosexuality was the main problem for the movement. Actually Prabhupad said little on the subject of homosexuality compared to the volumns of discussions about the danger of illicit sex between men and women. JIJAJI: I declare; GAYISM IS ONLY MANIFEST IN THE MATERIAL WORLD. Meaning it is only within the realm of maya that GAYISM is seen, not in the spiritual universes. It's not even a perverted reflection of an activity in the spiritual world... is against NATURE..the natural BALANCE God created! BD: Your declaration is not entirely true. In Krishna lila there are priya-narma-sakas. These gopas are effeminate cowherd boys who assist Krishna in his affairs with the gopis. With these cowherd boys Krishna discusses and plans his madurya pastimes with the Gopis. They also serve as emissaries between Krishna, Radha and her associates. A rasa of this type is considered in the conjugal mood. Otherwise the majority of cowherd boys are under Balaram and relate with Krishna as fun loving friends. I don’t say that these priya-narma-gopas are Gay but their existence could be the reflection that you declare doesn’t exist. Other than that the article talked about a Third Sex group that may have taken part in both Krishna and Chaitanya lila. I can’t vouch for all the details of the article in question. I can only say that most of the essay seemed reasonable to me. Hare Krishna, Brahma

I will try to make the same(deleted)point I made before in a more delicate manner. Many devotees on these forums who are quick to condemn homosexuals for sexual deviancy are themselves practicing some type unaccepted sex as far as the scriptures are concerned. Along with that many drink and or take drugs. Since I left ashram life in 1984 I have known few devotees living outside the ashram who claimed to be strictly following the rules and regulations. It is considered quite normal for devotees living outside to be sexually active and few chant regular rounds. Still they areregarded as devotees because they have some love for Krishna and Prabhupad. When asked about such devotees Prabhupad said they should still be considered Vaisnavas unless they begin to eat meat. In the article on the third sex it said that living apart from the rest of society was a normal situation for Gays in Vedic culture. We also see this is true to a certain extent in todays culture. In many ways they are a world apart in the way they live and view life. But those who have appreciation for Krishna are still Vaisnavas regardless of their sexuality and should be given respect and encouragement to be Krishna conscious. Just as we respect and try to help other devotees who do not follow the all the sexual rules and regulations. Hare Krishna, Bdas

Here in SF we have a very large Gay community which is made up of all kinds of people. In general they are affluent, educated, articulate and liberal. Many are spiritually inclined and some have become devotees. Although homosexuality may be a choice for some people I do not believe this is the case for the vast majority of Gay people. If you think that most homosexuals can be changed to hetrosexuals through religious conversion than you carry the same opinion as that of the Christian right. And that opinion is not widly accepted by sociologists. [All references to deleted messages remove. -jndas] Hare Krishna, BDas [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 08-28-2001).]

This is a letter sent to me by a person who attended one of the programs in our home. It contains a link to an article on Homosexuality in Vedic culture and to the Gay and Lesbian Vaisnava Association. Below is my reply to his letter written after I went to the sites. BDas Haribol, Brahma Dasa, Thank you for responding to me so quickly. I had already forgotten that I was going to send you this address. Please forgive my delay. Please write me with your response. I also include the GALVA resource page....in which you can find some other writings...including a few of those that were on CHAKRA and responses from other Gurus within and outside of ISKCON. Your friend and servant Albert http://www.geocities.com/galva108/ http://www.nine9.ukshells.co.uk/cgi-bin/galva-idx.pl Dear Albert, I spent about an hour reading the essay on the third sex and another few minutes on the Galva site. The essay is very well done and although I can not vouch for the accuracy of all that was written I certainly agree with the spirit of the words. I think this is important information that should be made available to the devotees most of whom are good hearted and accepting. I posted the link to the GALVA sites on Dharma mela and India Divine and there may be some discussion that you might like to take part in. I know you won't expect everyone on these sites to agree with your point of view, but I am sure enough devotees will agree and by this you will be more encouraged to pursue Krishna Consciousness. Krishna Consciousness is always above any type of material designation including householder or sanyassi. Therefore never be discouraged by any type of prejudice or intolerance you might find within the overall movement of Krishna Consciousness. All such prejudice is due to material vision that is the result of past impressions from our previous karma. Also try not to overly identify with any type of socio-political group or organization. Our goal is to always see ourselves as servants of Krishna regardless of material considerations. This is the Absolute viewpoint that is eternal and unchanging. We should always try to live and work in full consciousness of this Absolute viewpoint. Hare Krishna If I can be of any further assistance please let me know. Sincerely, Brahma Das

Dear Ajay Shah, In your last post you seemed to propose that unless one is a siddha bhakta he should not promote Krishna consciousness. Actually there is anther way to consider this. That is the devotee should have faith that by promoting Krishna consciousness with heart and soul that gradually he will become a siddha bhakta. This idea is far from stupid. Rather it is the basis of the sankirtan movement of Mahaprabhu. That movement includes all types of people who are trying to promote Krishna Consciousness in various ways. Hare Bol, BDas

Siddha's program is on at 4 PM every Wednesday in SF. It is carried on the public access channel called cityvisions. Siddhas people have done a good job getting their message on these free channels. Almost every city has these channels and Siddha is on many of them. ITV or some other media group should also take advantage of these free access TV channels.

Jagat, I sent your post to Tripurari Swami for comments and this was his reply. He wanted to express however that if I posted his comments I should let it be known that he would not be available for extended discussions on them at this time. Brahma From Tripurari Swami: I think the question is whether the books were intellectually contrived, or were actual realizations that came to the Thakura in samadhi. It is easy to choose the former because we have experience of this and we are prone to it ourselves. Most people, however, have no experience of the latter, and thus it is harder to give credit where such credit may be due. Also, great persons should be given some license. If it is a spot, it is a spot on the moon." ............ Jagadananda's view does not give much consideration to the possibility that Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote those books in samadhi and attributed the names to those who inspired him in that trance. Rather than being a propagator of falsehoods, it is conceivable that BVT attributed the writing of these books to those who inspired their manifestation. It is probably worth noting that other than the Bippin Bihari criticism it appears that most respectable people accepted the books and the Thakura's vision of the Yoga pitha, including saints like Jagannatha dasa babaji. Books like Harinama Citnamani are as manufactured as the story in Brihad bhagavatamrita of Sanatana Goswami. Thus the title 6th Goswami was attributed to BVT by a prominent writer of the time, Sishu Kumara Gosh (I believe). So it seems that the Thakura did indeed have the kind of wide if not universal support that allowed people to view him as a modern mystic capable of manifesting scripture in our line like the original Goswamis themselves did. BVT was of the opinion that saints were the active principle in the dissemination of transcendental knowledge and that scripture involved ongoing revelation manifesting through such saints. >"Devotees of the Supreme Lord are not controlled by the scriptures >since their activities are congenial to divine wisdom. Therefore >when the self-realized devotees ordain any new arrangement, this >should be followed as a religious code, even if such new >arrangements are not found in the scriptural dictums of the previous >sages."-- Bhaktivinoda Thakura I do think it is an important discussion, but it is likely one that will not be resolved. Since it is possible to argue reasonably as I have in defense of BVT, I believe it is best for members of the Bhaktivinoda parivara to take this approach, while not demonizing those who take the other side. Tripurari Swami

Dear Jagat, I have always been of the opinion that books like Jaiva Dharma, NDM, and Brihat Bhagavatamrita were in the same category. That is they are literary expressions of the realizations of our saints. In this regard Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that whatever appears through the heart of a pure devotee is not to be considered fiction but rather to be considered reality. Of course we do not expect those outside our circle of faith to see those works in the same way. Those outside our circle may express faith in other ways that may or may not be objectively reasonable from a neutral view. The various schools of Classic Vedanta or sanatan dharma may faithfully accept sruti or smrti but those outside who take an objective look may not see any reasonable way to accept such writings as revelation or apauruseya. Indeed the term UN-authored or not of human origin is in itself unreasonable when applied to writing of any kind. Only when we add the element of mystic revelation can we accept that any book may be called apauruseya. And what are scriptures other than the mystic revelations of the sages. These mystic revelations of various types are supposed to be judged authentic by standard sruti texts. But how is it reasonable to accept those texts as the standard? In other words is faith in the sruti objectively reasonable and acceptable? Not according to scholars who are outside that type of faith. Here is what Ambedkar says of the Rg Veda. (As to philosophy there is nothing of it in the Rig-Veda. As Prof. Wilson observes there is in the Rig-Veda, which is the stock Veda, scarcely any indication or doctrinal or philosophical speculation. The Vedas may be useful as a source of information regarding the social life of the Aryans. As a picture of primitive life it is full of curiosity but there is nothing elevating. There are more vices and a few virtues.) My point in all this is to express my opinion that faith is faith whether one is expressing it in the smriti, sruti, or the writings of Bhaktivinode. Those outside of any faith have a tendency to belittle that faith while those within its ranks revere that faith beyond mundane reason. If the writings of Bhaktivinode are mystic revelations than we are to bow down to them and if not than we are simply deceived. In one meeting with Sridhar Maharaja he told us that to know what is genuine spirituality requires a type of intuition that is indefinable. If we have that type of intuition than we are fortunate. Other than that what is or is not mystic revelation cannot be proven by any scholarly thesis. Respectfully, Brahma Das

The RDTSKP College Festival Preaching Program. When TKG returned to the states from India in late 1973 he had the idea to introduce a new program that would revolutionize preaching. To do this he planned to team up with his old friend Visnu Jana Swami and with his preaching and management expertise along with VJS heart and mystique they would together make things happen. He also openly believed the way book distribution was going on was ruining the movement in America and he meant to introduce a better way to promote Krishna Consciousness. At that time VJS traveled in an old school bus with about ten brahmacharies distributing books, visiting temples and performing sankirtan. He was well received and appreciated wherever he went and even loved by the temple presidents. When TKG joined VJS they began visiting the temples and recruiting men. Together they had much success drawing many that had been on the verge of joining the movement but needed a little impetus to do so. VJS and TKG provided that impetus with their grand plan of a bus festival preaching lifestyle and those brahmacharies who were dissatisfied or simply swept away by the idea also left the temples to join. This of course did not sit well with the temple presidents. Soon TKG replaced the old school bus with a converted 1955 Greyhound. The seats were taken out of the bus and in their place was a nice temple room, kitchen and altar for Radha Damodar. The toilet in back was also removed and replaced with a shower. Small lockers for the devotees were also added. The bus was beautiful and sported a yellow and orange racing stripe and a bold Hare Krishna in front where the destination sign had been. A devotee was trained to travel ahead of the bus and book festivals at college campuses. These festivals featured amplified kirtans with Visnu Jana Swami chanting and playing harmonium while the devotees responded and played various exotic instruments. After each chanting set VJS would give a short heartfelt lecture. Along with chanting Radha Damodar was brought out of the bus and displayed. Prasadam was served and there was also a book table. Anyone who remembers Visnu Jana Swami knows how sweet his kirtans and lectures were. The students loved VJS and these festivals. TKG was also spoke in college classes on various religious and social topics. Soon a stage was added to make the kirtan more visible and a prasadam cart to make prasadam distribution cleaner and more appealing. Things were going great and proceeding according to TKG’s master plan and Dristadumna Das was recruited to lead a second bus. Soon after DD went on the road with his bus TKG and VJS visited the Boston temple. Adi-Kesava the brahmachari president there was so impressed with RDTSKP that he joined the bus program with almost the entire brahmachari ashram of about twenty devotees. TKG then had another bus converted and given to Adi-Kesava to lead. So now with three busloads of devotees TKG felt his program was a grand success. Prabhupad liked the festival/ bus program but was dissatisfied that not much in the way of book distribution was going on along with the festivals. TKG was dismayed at Prabhupads apparent dissatisfaction and pointed out to Prabhupad how many new men had joined him in such a short time. But through a number of conversations Prabhupad made it clear to TKG that he wanted his disciples to distribute his books. In order to please Prabhupad TKG then instituted an impressive BTG distribution program that he promoted along with his festival kirtans. Soon RDTSKP became the biggest force for distributing BTG in the movement. RDTSKP alone distributed over 60% of BTGs printed. With this leverage TKG was able to induce BTG management to include an ad in each BTG promoting the bus/ festival program. The add featured a picture of the bus and a festival with Visnu Jana chanting and playing harmonium. The title read “Travel with advanced devotees of the Hare Krishna Movement” and “Learn to Play Ancient Indian Instruments.” These ads brought many more people to RDTSKP and by the beginning of 1975 almost every brahmachari in the movement aspired to join RDTSKP and the bus program had over a hundred devotees aboard. TKG now had two more busses refurbished and recruited Kavi Chandra and myself from Tripurari Swami’s BBT airport book distribution party to lead them. Also Guru Das and Parivrajakacharya Swami joined from Canada with their own bus to bring the total to six busses and about 120 devotees. Prabhupad posed with the RDTSKP party in Chicago and the busses each were directed to zones to work in by TKG. Each bus party was had Gaur- Nitai deities to worship and was to institute the same schedule and festival/ book distribution program started by TKG and VJS. ( by 1975 the busses were also selling big books as per Prabhupads order) After a mass initiation by Prabhupad in Chicago the busses went their separate ways. I was on my way to Texas (my zone) with college festivals and lectures booked all along my route. I also stopped in whatever temples I could and a number of devotees left those temples and joined my bus. The five other busses had this same scenario with more temple brahmacharies and “fringe” devotees joining the party. Needless to say the temple presidents were not happy with the Radha-Damodar traveling festival program. BDas

Dear Satyaraj and all, Satyaraj wrote: Whilst I respect all the various philosophies, this darsana (philosophy of a particular path / sage / scripture) best suits my temperament and hence I will adopt that as my path." This is a very nice idea that may be difficult to put into practice. I think to do so means that we would have to add a tenor of respect and appreciation for others to our posts that so far seems to have eluded us. If we have some respect at heart it does not often come out in our posting interaction. This is not only our problem but it is in essence "everyones" problem. A problem we should try to face and rectify as Gaudiya Vaisnavism and other religious philosophies come under more scrutiny in the modern information age. In this age philosophies can be examined in greater detail than was ever possible before. And we see that our own bold arrogant proclamations can be opposed and returned in kind. In Gaudiya Vaisnavism we have a great philosophy and much to offer in the way of a path to realization. But it is not the only great philosophy or path. In our idea of "Rasa" we offer something different than the general concept of dwaita or adwaita. But to think we can literally crush dwaita or adwaita with our philosophy is in my view a misunderstanding. And neither will those philosophies be able to crush achintya beda abeda. Scholars and laymen alike may argue philosophy but those who are not preoccupied with argument will simply move according to their faith and taste. Therefore at this time I believe a new way to promote our concepts are in order, a way that does not insult or attack but rather draws one to the unique possibilities available in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. After all it was these "possibilities" and not arguments that Bhagavatam tells us drew Sukadeva from the adwaita conception. And it is actually our sincere practice of Gaudiya Vaisnavism in the form of hearing, chanting, etc (or the sincere practice of another path) that will draw us into the realizations available in our path. Those experiences and realizations are said to transport one beyond theological arguments and even beyond our own conceptions of what is rational and irrational. Sincerely, BDas

Dear Jagat, Thanks for the kind words. I would like to reply that I am not much of a philosopher in any real sense. I am uneducated and have not studied many books. I even find it a chore to apply my mind to the details of a philosophical analysis such as yours. Mostly I am a worker, a sudra and see myself as such. In the movement I was a worker from day one and if I gave a good class (as some tell me) it was because I told stories and jokes well. Still I think I have some understanding and feeling for what Prabhupad gave so in my own simple way I try to pass that on. I was also fortunate enough to appreciate Srila Sridhar Maharaja from the beginning and I can not sufficiently stress how much his words helped me maintain my faith and appreciation for devotees through difficult times. I neglected Sridhar Maharaja’s dictum: connect with a higher Vaisnava who inspires you and come under his guidance, for the past decade. Now I am trying to follow by rendering some small service to Tripurari Swami. As you noted he graciously accepted what service I am willing to offer and gave me in return a renewed appreciation for Krishna Consciousness. As we are discussing dictums: (1 An authoritative, dogmatic or positive utterance; a pronouncement. 2. A popular saying; a maxim.) I took the opportunity to promote one in the paragraph above that I believe if applied selectively and according to our individual faith will bestow on us maximum benefit. Anyway, thinking my first reply somewhat injudicious I took the time to read your essay again. I had to laugh when I saw that you defined what you called Prabhupads dictum on the first page. My mind being short and your essay long I had more or less lost the connection. In general I will have to admit what you were trying to say eluded me at the time and may still not be very clear to me. If I was to distill it down I think you are trying to say: Prabhupada warned us about religious fanaticism when he said,” Religion without philosophy is sentiment and sometimes fanaticism”. But we did not expect that when we came face to face with the most serious type of religious fanaticism both faces would belong to ourselves. Hare Krishna, Brahma

Dear Jagat, Sometimes I think when I read an essay on these forums that I might have something to reply. But usually I regret saying anything. That is more or less my feeling now about my comments above. I think what you replied is a novel idea. Be yourself! If sometimes I don't appreciate the mood or angle you take in your writing than I guess I am only being myself and myself and yourself well are just different. I once asked T-Swami about some of the critiques and angles you displayed in your posts and he replied with much the same " be yourself". You are living with a particular mind that needs much intellectual stimulation. Analysis and study seems to be yourself. I guess I can say that if after all the analysis you have maintained your faith (in your own style) than that is good for you and I am happy with that. Hare Krishna, Brahma

Dear Jagat, I don't understand why you found it necessary to end your provicative essay with that little dig at the end. Certainly from the scholarly objective viewpoint everything is fair game. But as you know the disciples view of his master is not completely objective. A stern objective look at any philosophy or teacher will uncover numerous shortcomings and leave us with nothing but armchair philosophy. Therefore we are not advised to see our Guru with an overly critical eye but rather, with what faith we can muster, see him as a deligated agent of Divinity. In his role as Divine agent he supports and nourishes our devotion. You seem to think that it is your role to add some critical objectivity toward our vision of our Master. This may be acceptable up to a point. I believe that point is where your analysis interferes with and is an affront to the faith our master came to give. Sometimes there is a fine line between faith maker and faith breaker. If we are to tred this line we should be sure not to lean much to the side of faith breaker because faith once broken is difficult to repair. What energy we have would be better used as faith maker and in our own way contribute something positive to the mission of our Master. And our own faith will be best served by this approach. I believe wholeheartedly that you are a person of faith who is somehow trying to harmonize knowledge and devotion in your own mind. But faith and devotion are beyond knowledge and objectivity. Scriptural quotes support our faith superficially but as you noted full faith is beyond rationality. We are told that Krishna can be found in scripture only by those who hear from a person of realized faith and not from mere study. naham vadair na tapasa Therfore even more important than scripture is a person of realized faith. Such a person draws faith in Krishna from scripture, even from places no one else may find it. Those of a different type of faith will see scripture in their own way according to their own faith. Faith is Supreme and we are to appreciate and serve that faith. And faith is best served by full reverence to our Master and his servants and not by stressing thier shortcomings. Hare Krishna, With Respects, Brahma

Hari Bol to you also Tarun, You wrote (Should we have purchased Pittsburgh Ellsworth Mandir or what?) reply: Couldn't purchase because we had no money at the time and besides we were kicked out of that Grand building because of noise and zoning laws. (1st large annual ISKCON Mayapur festival was 1974.) Reply: Thanks, That means all the dates relating to my posts are off about a year. (A few days before 1976 Gaur-purnima, 16Mar that year, so around 11Mar76, Visnujan Svami led mangalAratrik at Mayapur festival. Nice but something was gone. Missing. An hour later he went on morning walk with PrabhupAd. Ater that, we never saw him again.) reply: I roomed with VJS, TKG, and DDS in Mayapur that festival. I did not notice a distraught VJS but later others said they did. VJS just disappeared and TKG and all thought he went into Calcutta or somewhere to get away from the politics. When he did not return after a few days TKG had me move to the former bed of VJS and because of crowding moved another Swami into our room. I was not on that famous morning walk that supposedly sent VJS to the triveni. (We've all heard his Triveni Atma-ha story. But have you heard this one?) I never heard that story and I told all my stories and thoughts to Vyasaki for his second volume of RD Vilasa. I will say this: After the Mayapur festival I went to SF Rathayatra and parked the bus at the site and set up our little bhajan stage at the festival gate. This was across the meadow from the big main stage. Visnu Jana's mom and dad came by to see me and ask for news of VJS. I had the origional Grayhound RD bus and they asked to look around inside. They were very sad and heard so many rumors but I had no conclusive knowledge of what happened to VJS so could not tell them much or do little to comfort them. They continued to contact RDTSKP office for a few years about the whereabouts of their son. If Visnu Jana Swami was alive and married than the parents did not know of it. At least for those next few years. Hare Krishna, Brahma

Thanks Maitreya, This post answers everything. Brahma

Whew! Thanks, Thats one less offence I have to rectify. Visnu Jana's bus in Pitts: Than you must have been with the roadshow that came through in 72. Thier last performance. What a thrill that was! How about another hint as to your real identity. Brahma

Holy Smokes Puru, What suddenly happened to Satyaraj. This new Satyaraj makes me appreciate the old Satyaraj much better. He flip flops quite a bit so perhaps we can expect the old Satyaraj back at any time. We should pray for his recovery. And this should be a lession to us that we should always appreciate those who are trying to love and serve Mahaprabhu dispite their faults and demeanor. And Puru nice essay and info thanks, Brahma