Mazhar

i have read teh q'ran and the philosophy contradicts the everyday muslim way one should lead according to it. For example the Q'ran says idoltry is a sin whereas the Kaaba itself contains the Black stone -Al-aswad (the Shiv Ling). Which was even worshipped by king Vikramaditya who used to go regularly to makkeshvar (mecca) to worship the makkeshwar mahadev.

 

muslims state that they are not worshipping the actual stone but teh reason behind why its there. Okay thats fine. But Hindus also do not believe the stone idols to be God. But the idol represents God. So how is that any different from what the muslims believe?

 

I think I have explained this but I will do it again. The black stone is nothing but just a

part of kaaba. The black stone is a part of kaaba, you cannot say that black stone and kaaba

are different and kaaba is there because we offer salaah in its direction.

We do not worship kaaba nor we worship Allah through kaaba, as I said we do not need kaaba to remember Allah, it is just our direction and pplce to perform hajj.

1. No muslim keeps kaaba in his house or in mosque, there is only one kaaba in the world and it is for direction. If we would need kaaba to worship Allah, every muslim would keep it in his house and in mosques.

2. At the time of prophet muhammad pbuh, the followers used to give azaan (call to prayers) on the top of kaaba i.e. they use to stand on kaaba to give azaan. No idol worshiper would stand on the idol.

3. When we offer salaah, we do not see kaaba, we see at a place where we prostrate. And a person who is not living in mecca offcourse does not see it at all. We just stand towards it.

Thank you. The question is actually directly related to the topic you raised on idol worship.

 

Those names of Allah are undoubtly holy names. According to what we have been taught the holy names of God are a form of God. Gods names are totally spiritual. The Lord also has an unlimited number of names because He Himself is unlimited in every way.

 

Sound vibration is also a form. Every sound leaves a distinct pattern that distinquishes it from any other sound vibration. The sound Coca Cola is a material sound that is vibrated by the vocal cords and registers on the ear drums of the earthly body and we perceive it in that way. Just as a painting or sculture has certain patterns that register on the eyes and optic nerve and we perceive the painting through the sense of sight.

 

Now what is the difference between the name Coca Cola and the name of God, Allah? They both are vibrated by the vocal chords and perceived through the sense of hearing? We have been taught that the name of Allah or any name of God has been invested with spiritual potency by the Lord Himself and is therefore a sound incarnation of the Lord although it appears to be material like any ordinary sound.It is not an ordinary sound however because it carries the very presence of the Lord.

 

So in this way God appears before our limited ears in the form of His name and likewise He agrees to appear before our eyes in the form of the Murti so that we may offer Him various kinds of service.

 

So you worship the names of Allah in sound form. Are you an idol worshipper? of course not. You see Muzhar you also worship God in Deity from as His sound vibration incarnation or name.

 

In Krsna consciousness we are learning to not only hear Him in His names but to see Him as the Deity and even taste Him in the form of sanctified food or prasadam.

 

So our paths are the same only we are engaging the rest of our senses, other than just hearing, in the perception of the Lord.

 

Now please be clear I am not saying that anyone can worship any thing calling it God and it is the same thing. Unless the Lord has agreed to appear before the devotee as sound or painting or sculpture or burning bush then the worship is idol worship. But if the Lord appears before in any of these ways no one can rightly denigrate our mode of worship calling it idol worship.

 

Do you think that we repeat Allah's names in some kind of sound vibration?If your answer is yes then we do not call Allah with any sound vibration for example I am reciting "Allah" on beads then I am just reciting it, there is no sound or music in the background.

If you want to know how we recite, I can record the sound and send you the file.

It is short enough. This thread is already 5 pages long. My words are short in comparison. If you don't have patience to consider what I wrote then so be it. Please take your time and thoughtfully consider what I took the time to thoughtfully write. It is an important question and deserves to be approached carefully.

 

If not then I have nothing more to say.

Actually i was reading it very fast, now i will read it carefully.

Yeah, you take a dubious translation of a text, twist it out of context and we should all submit to it as gospel, eh? No verse stands on its own, deprived of overall meaning and context. I'd accept the version espoused by knowledgeable pandits and swamis proficient in both Sanskrit and sadhana as the true word of shastra any day, rather than seriously consider the disingenuous distortions of a casual unenlightened dabbler such as you.

 

Sat Sanatana Dharma Ki Jaya!

 

And I repeat that we need Smriti in order to understand Shruti. And Smriti-shastra definitely contains elaborate descriptions of how murti-puja should be done. End of discussion!!!

If it is out of context brother then you give the context to me.

Thank you. The question is actually directly related to the topic you raised on idol worship.

 

Those names of Allah are undoubtly holy names. According to what we have been taught the holy names of God are a form of God. Gods names are totally spiritual. The Lord also has an unlimited number of names because He Himself is unlimited in every way.

 

Sound vibration is also a form. Every sound leaves a distinct pattern that distinquishes it from any other sound vibration. The sound Coca Cola is a material sound that is vibrated by the vocal cords and registers on the ear drums of the earthly body and we perceive it in that way. Just as a painting or sculture has certain patterns that register on the eyes and optic nerve and we perceive the painting through the sense of sight.

 

Now what is the difference between the name Coca Cola and the name of God, Allah? They both are vibrated by the vocal chords and perceived through the sense of hearing? We have been taught that the name of Allah or any name of God has been invested with spiritual potency by the Lord Himself and is therefore a sound incarnation of the Lord although it appears to be material like any ordinary sound.It is not an ordinary sound however because it carries the very presence of the Lord.

 

So in this way God appears before our limited ears in the form of His name and likewise He agrees to appear before our eyes in the form of the Murti so that we may offer Him various kinds of service.

 

So you worship the names of Allah in sound form. Are you an idol worshipper? of course not. You see Muzhar you also worship God in Deity from as His sound vibration incarnation or name.

 

In Krsna consciousness we are learning to not only hear Him in His names but to see Him as the Deity and even taste Him in the form of sanctified food or prasadam.

 

So our paths are the same only we are engaging the rest of our senses, other than just hearing, in the perception of the Lord.

 

Now please be clear I am not saying that anyone can worship any thing calling it God and it is the same thing. Unless the Lord has agreed to appear before the devotee as sound or painting or sculpture or burning bush then the worship is idol worship. But if the Lord appears before in any of these ways no one can rightly denigrate our mode of worship calling it idol worship.

 

Do you understand my point hear? Do you agree?

Brother Thiest I did not understand your point completely. Make it short please. Thanks

 

Your own 1,400-year-old religion has no true concept of something as basic as the soul, and you have the cheek to come here stupidly preach to us views that are contrarian to something that we know since time immemorial.

 

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Brother Islam is not 1400 years old and prophet muhammad is not the founder of islam. Islam is there since man came on earth i.e. from the time of Hazrat Adam pbuh, and He was the first messenger of God. Prophet muhammad pbuh is the last and final messenger of God for whole of humanity and Quran is the last book which is for the whole human kind.

And whether Kaaba represents Allah or not is just immaterial. You do make use of its symbolism to direct yourself during prayer, period. Likewise, Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Sikhs and others all have a legitimate right to their symbolisms. You can rave and rant all you want about this, but nobody is going to pay heed to your uninformed ramblings. Go back to where you belong, man.

Kaaba is not the symbol of Allah. It is made for a direction and that's it.

And where did you get this translation from? The Vedas and other Shruti texts are often written in cryptic language which is next to impossible to decipher for the ordinary people. For this reason, the part of Veda known as Smriti exists, for it brings out the real meaning of Shruti, for the spiritual benefit of the masses. This is Vedic dharma, and no cow-eater such as yourself can ever be blessed with revelation of the siddhanta of our ancient dharma. Get a life, Mazhar.

Brother, what you should care about is that the quotation is right or wrong? Why you care about from where I got the translation? If it is wrong then tell me it is wrong.

Pranam

Kulapavana Prabhu ji is perfect in his assumption of this crusader, his intentions are anything but respect for Hindus and in particular the murti puja.

It would be too much for a musalman to accept and respect others mode of practice. To them we are kaafir so a fair game.

I ask him kindly to respect all and sundry, sure let us build bridges and tolerance.

But as we say one can not clap with one hand. Let him make his intension clear.

Jai Shree Krishna

Brother, Kaafir means a person who does not beleive in Islam i.e. non muslim. So Kaafir and non-muslim have same meaning. Do u mind if i call u a non-muslim? offcourse, no. My intention is not to heart any one.

Originally Posted by Mazhar

Brother I am a Muslim and Muslim means a person who submits his will to God. So I will do what my Allah told me to do.

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Why do you feel compelled to go out of your way to convert Hindus? Does Allah tell you to try to convert people who worship God differently then Muslims do? What is it to you that Hindus might be worshipping idols?

 

Usually people like you turn out to be crusaders. Do you like crusaders when they come to your land? Your interest in Hindu dharma is not genuine. You quote one of the big modern Muslim crusaders to start this thread. Who do you think you are fooling with that act?

 

Maybe you do not worship Kaaba or the Black Stone as the "right hand of Allah on earth, but millions of other Muslims do. You should focus your preaching zeal on them. For us Hindus worshipping God in the temple Deity is a way of life based on our scriptures and tradition. Leave us alone.

 

Go home crusader.

Brother, I am not compelling any hindu to beleive what i say. I am telling you the verses of your own books. I am not giving my own opinion. I am translating your books If you think I am wrong then correct me brother. I am here for a peaceful dicussion.

Pranam

 

 

Vedas describe the creation as in perfect harmony because every thing that emanates from God is perfect, so your assertion that God created imperfect being is an insult, it is another matter that we choose to rebel in his creation and cause havoc.

 

 

It is not insult to God, God made us with some deficiencies, if He wanted to , He could make us perfect. Imperfect means that we fal ill, we got older and older every day, we get tired, etc. Sometimes we have some diseases. Allah made us like that because Allah wants to test us, this lie is test for the hereafter.

Pranam

There absolutely very little you know off Hindu apart from that we worship idols (that’s your misconception) or we apparently worship many gods again a misconception.

 

If I have a misconception then remove it.

I am peaceful.

I know you asked your question to Kulapavana but I found a verse.

 

"I make no distinction between one religion and another. People may worship me in any form they wish. The form of worship does not matter to me; my only concern is the quality of love which is expressed in worship. I accept every kind of worship, because I am supreme."

 

 

Gita 9.20-24

 

 

But vedas are more superior among hindu scriptures. And Yadurveda says:

"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti (means created things, for example table, chair, idol, etc.)."

I see. Yes we need to be reminded of our equal status in the eyes of God. That is a very good practice.

Another question Mazhar if I may. I live in America by a major university. Although we have relatively few muslims living in the US here in Berkeley there are quite a few. I see them sometimes carrying a form of prayer beads which they finger as they walk. This is a similar practice to mine. I use beads to chant God's names on, specifically Hare Krishna Hare Rama. I am curious if you also chant the names of God on your beads. Undoubtly different names of God like Allah of course, but the same God surely (as there is only One), or do Muslims have a certain prayer which they repeat.

 

 

There are any choices what to repeat and pray on beads like we may call 1 of 99 names of Allah or we may pray for prophet muhammad (pbuh) (which is called Durood in Islam) or we may recite any verse of Quran, etc.

It was never my contention that you worship Kaaba to start with. But you do utilise it, in all evidence without a clear comprehension of its purpose in your religion, and this is plain from the reasons that you note above. I repeat that, by parity of reasoning, you should afford other religions the right to their symbolisms in the same way that you have yours. And trust me buddy, the explanations that knowledgeable Hindus would propose as means of justifying praying to statues are way deeper that what you've typed on this thread. What I wrote was an analogy which, I maintain, is not dissimilar or totally unconnected to your defence of why you turn towards the Kaaba, for whatever reason that may be. As I said, it's a pity that you lack the intellectual integrity required to make this association. Anyways, to each his own, and NO Hindu of any denomination whatsoever shall cease the performance of murti-puja because of what Islam makes of it.

In Islam there is no symbol of Allah, there are signs or indications of Allah.

And in the same way God ordered us to worship Him in His murti forms in the temples, as well as in the salagrama-sila stones from the Gandhaki River. You should follow God's order given to you in your scripture and do not concern yourself with the orders God has given to the Hindus.

 

I hope it is clear now.

Can you quote me some verses in which God orders you to worship him in the murti forms?

Does this mean that myslims are incapable of visualising a omnipotent formless allah through anything other then kaaba...

 

i can sit in whichever way and look at any plant or tree or stone and wonder at the same omnipotent formless god and wonder at his creation.... dont tell me you arent able to do something so simple... and if someone told me why i have to look at one stone and imagine god only through that stone i would want to know why cant i imagine god through any other stone... after all i am a intelligent human being... and any intelligent human has and asks questions... hope u will too

I think brother you need to know the concept of God in Islam. In short, we muslims worship Allah directly. we do not need any idol, or any stone or anything to worship Him. We see His creation, we see the sun, moon, sky, ourselves and the whole universe and they are all the signs of Allah, not the symbol of Allah. We worship the creator not created.

Well why does a religion not give its followers the right to choose even a simple thing like which direction he should pray.... religions should not assume that humans are cattle without intelligence... which direction one may like another may not... so why this requirement that everyone MUST pray in this direction... what wrong will happen if two people pray to the same god in two different directions... i dont think god will get any smaller

Brother, if everyone will choose his own direction then where is the unity? Islam is the religion of peace. When we offer salaah, we stand shoulder to shoulder so that we love each other, and we can stand like that when we have same direction.

Other thing is that we only face towards kaaba for salaah i.e. namaaz and if you want to ask something from Allah or pray to him, here pray means to ask for something, then you can do it in any direction.

Salam

 

 

 

Lord Krishna Says

 

Thus the knowledge that is more secret than the secret has been explained to you by Me. After fully reflecting on this, do as you wish. (18.63)

 

This is the different between you and me, I have a choice where you my friend, are bound by the laws of Islam and no scope to think for your self.

Difference here is I choose to worship god as I see fit out of my free will so tell me why it should bother you.

Brother I am a Muslim and Muslim means a person who submits his will to God. So I will do what my Allah told me to do. We human beings are created by Allah and we are imperfect but Allah is perfect, he does not need anyone, but we need him. so you saying that I will worship God as I see fit is unacceptable and no hindu will agree with you if he is a good hindu.

As per my information Allah Spoke to the holy Prophet mohammed... prophet mohammed narrated his learnings to the masses through his teachings and only after the passing away of the holy prophet were the writings jotted down on paper...

the prophet Mohammed could have got his teachings written down but he didnt do so maybe intentionally...

"Not long after the Prophet's death (632), his successor Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam, asked Muhammad's former head scribe, Zaid Ibn Thâbit, to make a copy. this he did"

 

So technically the quran is minimum a third person account of what mohammed had heard and narrated to his followers... when i say something to a friend and he tells it to another i can visualise the kinds of discrepencies which creep in...

The quran was ordered and was written down completely at the time of prophet muhammad (pbuh). abu bakr (pbuh) and other followers of prophet muhammad (pbuh) compile the quran into a book. Previously, the verses were written but was not compiled. So quran is in his original form and will always be as Allah promises in Quran for its protection.

Now here is clear explanation:

We muslims face towards the kaaba because it is the order of Allah in Quran. Kaaba is our direction to pray to Allah and thats it. We do not worship kaaba nor we worship Allah through kaaba. The best proof is that we do not see kaaba when we are praying. When we offer Salaah, our eyes are at the place where we prostrate and not on kaaba. We do not need the picture of kaaba to worship Allah. We do not remember Allah through kaaba.

In short, we do not worship kaaba nor we worship Allah through kaaba. It is just a direction and we muslims did not select it with our own choice, but Allah ordered us in the Quran to face the kaaba.

I hope it is clear now.

The basic point remains the same, but you lack the wherewithal to adequately defend your viewpoint, hence this fall-back on another version of the same fundamental concept that we would utilise to justify murti-puja, not idol worship.

Are you trying to say that we worship kaaba, please tell me exactly what are you trying to say? Ask clearly.

 

comparing the Black Stone (Al-Hajarul Aswad) with the Hindu tradition

 

one more time: Kaaba is considered by the Muslims to be the "House of Allah", not merely an arbitrarily chosen direction. It was originally built by Abraham and Ishmael, the progenitor of the Arab people. They were the ones who placed Al-Hajarul Aswad given to them by archangel Gabriel in Kaaba. Al-Hajarul Aswad is sometimes called by Muslims "the right hand of God in earth". Thus the Black Stone is not an idol but a divine manifestation of Gods's presence in this world, just like Lord Vishnu's murtis in the temple, or salagrama sila stones.

Yes, kaaba is the house of Allah, but not in the sense that Allah lives here or it does not mean that we worship kaaba.

As regards Hajra-e-Aswad, neither is it right hand of Allah nor it is sign of presence of Allah. You saying that is unauthentic. I do not know any verse of Quran or any saying of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saying that. So it is wrong. Infact Hazrat Umar (pbuh) said that "This stone can neither benefit me nor can harm me, but I am kissing it only because prophet Muhammad (pbuh) kissed it."

Respected comerade mazar please be clear of the concepts and the words u use... as per my understanding ciscumsizing is the ceremony of "Suntah" where a part of the foreskin is cut off.. so u can not do circumsision of the kaaba... What incidently brother muslims do is calld i believe the circumambulation of the kaaba ... which is walking around the kaaba jointly and this concept has been there in pradakshina in hindu temples for thousands of years before islam came into existance... so nothing new here even today u go to any old temple and u will see people doing pradakshina in groups... "circumambulation not circumcision"

Oh, yes, thanks for correction, it is circumambulation not circumcizing..

What you do not understand is that we are not worshipping the idol. We are worshipping what the idol represents. Like you who faces Kaaba as "just a direction to pray", some Hindus need to face a deity as a direction to pray. Both need to focus on something. Anyway, if god is everywhere, why would you need to face a particular spot? This is what I do not understand.

Good question brother! We pray to Allah (Salaah) in Mosque. In mosque we pray together. So if no diection is specified, some one will say, lets pay towards east, some one wil say, towards west and etc. And for the sake of argument, if a mosque chooses a direction, then there will be lot of different directions each mosque will be choosing. So, for unity, a direction has been specified to pray towards it.

Brother thiest, Kaaba is a qibla i.e. direction towards which muslims pray. If some one wants to pray, in which direction will he should pray? some wil say north, south, some will say east, and etc so Allah has decided that you will pray towards kaaba. So, we pray towards kaaba and not to kaaba. It is also for unity. And we circumcize it because it is the order of Allah. Circumcizing has lot of benefits..for example lacs of muslims go for hajj every year and circumsize the kaaba and it increases the unity and it shows that every one is equal...when we perform hajj, every performer wear same clothes so it removes every distinction..and teaches us that everyone is equal and no white is better than black, no rich is better than poor, no arabic is better than non-arabic and vice versa. You cannot recognize whether the person performing the hajj is beggar or king.

So in Islam, Kaaba is just a direction to pray.

Thanks brother thiest for the clarification. I aso want to discuss similarities. As Quran says that " come to common terms". So, I want to discuss ith you the similarities, first we should beleive and act what is common As regards differences, we will see them tomorrow.

You said that God has no form, and that we cannot see him and that God has not made of materialstic thing, and you are right.

What I understand from you is that Hindus need idols in their initial stages and then they do not need it. But brother if you analyse, God himself does not want us to worship the idols, as I wrote the article. Idol worship is prohibited in both Hinduism and Islam.

I sincerely request my hindu brothers and sisters to analyse the verses and do not just stick to what you beleive.