Mazhar

I am not sure if you knew this, but Judaism the religion which gave birth to Islam and Christianity actually borrowed the concept of heaven and hell from the Zoroastrians. Jews initially believed in reincarnation too. Isn't that surprising Mazhar?

 

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Resurrection_And_Judgement/id/9759

 

Also check out Judism and reincarnation:

http://www.atmajyoti.org/sw_xtian_believe_reinc.asp

 

This has nothing to do with your "idol worship" question, but just wanted to say that everything is not as it seems on the outside. Just because it does not make sense to you does not mean it doesn't make sense to someone else. With that you can just agree to disagree and go your seperate ways, especially if you don't want to understand.

I do not know anything about judaism. But what you said is completely wrong. Islam is the first and the true religion that came on earth. Prophet Muhammad is the last and final messenger and Quran is the last book. Allah says in Quran that we have sent messengers for every nation. And every messenger from Adam to Muhammad (peace be upon them all)taught the same message that God is one and we should worship only one God and do not worship idols. So the basic message is the same.

I am not sure if you knew this, but Judaism the religion which gave birth to Islam and Christianity actually borrowed the concept of heaven and hell from the Zoroastrians. Jews initially believed in reincarnation too. Isn't that surprising Mazhar?

 

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Resurrection_And_Judgement/id/9759

 

Also check out Judism and reincarnation:

http://www.atmajyoti.org/sw_xtian_believe_reinc.asp

 

This has nothing to do with your "idol worship" question, but just wanted to say that everything is not as it seems on the outside. Just because it does not make sense to you does not mean it doesn't make sense to someone else. With that you can just agree to disagree and go your seperate ways, especially if you don't want to understand.

I do not know anything about judaism. But what you said is completely wrong. Islam is the first and the true religion that came on earth. Prophet Muhammad is the last and final messenger and Quran is the last book. Allah says in Quran that we have sent messengers for every nation. And those messenger only taught Islam.

Thank you sunds for the concise clarification.

So you beleive that God is one but in many forms.

Are all the forms that you beleive idols?

I am asking a question now that I should ask at the beginning which relates to hinduism. I know Hindus beleive in one God but then what role do the idols play in hinduism?

What history tells us is that islam is a young religion. Prophet Mohammed was born sometime between 570-571 A.D.

so unless u are talking of "some other islam" it is a young religion in comparison to hinduism... which has existed forever...

 

Hazrat Adam pbuh was the first human being and was first messenger of Allah and he teached Islam.

I feel no reason for becoming a member of a religion which has just one stone and one direction to pray to...

 

imagine if ever "satan" wishes to destroy islam all he will have to do is use a single nuclear device on the stone "KAABA" and the religion will have nothing to back up the faith...

 

Whereas anyone wishing to destroy hinduism could destroy the world "and believe me many invaders have tried and not succeded" and still hinduism will prevail.

No one can destroy kaaba nor can destroy quran nor islam.

Dear brother daas ka daas,

we close our eyes to remember Allah, to think of Allah and we concentrate on the concepts given in Quran of Allah and etc. There are many veeses in Quran describing and praising Allah but the most concise and best is in chapter which says:

"Say He is Allah, one and only;

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

He begets not, Nor is He begotten;

And there is none Like unto Him.

Pranam all

Now I am no expert in anything let alone Sanskrit and since the yajur veda above has no original Sanskrit there is no way we can verify if the translation does justice to what it intends to convey, but still let us consider what we have.

 

There is a great wisdom here, if one is honest, can understand it has nothing to do with murti puja rejection or otherwise. Verse no 5 says it all.

 

Like Prahlad, when asked if he was in the pillar he says father he is every where.

 

If god can appear from pillar what is so difficult for him to appear in his murti form?

 

Verse 11 answers number 9.

 

The meaning of sambhuti in verse 9 and 11 are different, if you ead honestly the verse 9, it says that to whome the sambhuti is intent (means they worship sambhuti) they are in deeper darkness.

If you say that sambhuti in both the verses is same then tell me the meanings of sambhuti.

I have read the verse 5 and i think it is not related to verse 9, it generally says that God is everywhere. Further in 9th verse, it prohibits you to worship asambhuti and sambhuti.

when speaking to ones father do brothers need to stand united in one direction and call him in one single format...

 

unity is not for humans humanity is a creative approach to understanding god. what the prophet saw none have seen... some see more and some see less... some are blind and some have senses better than others...

 

unity is not a approach for peace but is a militiristic apprach and is always warlike...

 

Hitler united germany against the world...

 

When you become a muslim with Allah's grace, you will know that the direction is for the unity.

"but one thing i like about this discussion is" that mazhar is begining to read the vedas and quote from them... hopefully our brother mazhar will realise the wisdom of hinduism which has been acquired over tens of thousands of years... and god willing he will realise the fickleness of all the younger religions which have existed for a mere thousand years...

 

the younger religions have come and vanished without leaving a trace and let us see 500 years from now...

First of all Islam is not a younger religion. It is old than hinduism and any othe religion. It is there since the man came on earth.

Pranam

I give you a clue Sambhûti means manifest and Asambhûti' means unmanifest

 

Knowing simultaneously the two one becomes immortal.

 

 

Sambhuti may mean manifest in the 11th or 10th verse, but in the 9th verse it surely means created things. There is no word in English like "unmanifest" . Asambhuti in 9th verse means natural things like air, water, etc.

1.To quote you directly

 

 

So which statement is correct ? Your original one or the retreat you offered up ?

 

 

Do u find any difference in it?

2. You are telling me to correct you ? Who are you to tell me to do anything. You are the one who is simply participating in the spamming of Hindu groups with the same uninformed propaganda.

I am not spamming. I didnt opene any thread in the forum other than this and I am not criticizing hinduism and I am quoting correct verses of hindu scriptures.

1. I am not your sister so don't patronise me.

2. The wrong is in your intent, you did not happen upon these writings then seek out wisdom due to a yearning in your heart. You came here to do your part in the mass " lets spam the Hindus " campain that is flooding so many sites currently. You know nothing about our scriptures and have simply come to stir the pot. You have no decency and no authority to comment on scriptures of which you lack even the basic understanding. It would be much the same thing if I went to a Muslim site and declared the method of worship followed there to be false, but I am much to decent to do that. All you have done is take a few lines , without context of course, and announced yourself an expert. The true nectar of our scriptures would be wasted on you.

I told this before that If u think i am wrong regarding ur scriptures then correct me. I am here for a discussion and understanding not to criticize and fight. You are right that I know nothing of Hinduism and you know way better than me, thats why i am telling u to correct me if i am wrong. If u think i am quoting out of context then u give the context to me.

I stand corrected, however you still only given us verse nine. Let's see what verse 10 and 11 say

 

Now, unless you (or someone else) knows of another meaning for Sambhuti and Vinasa, I'm going to asume they mean knowledge and ignorance, and this verse means the same as the one found in the Isa Upanishad.

The meaning of Sambhuti in verse 9 means created things like chair, table, idos etc...

God also gives the hands to carve and the wood to carve.

 

Well we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Hare Krishna

do u mean that you make idols with wood, so wood is natural. Is that what u mean?

If your " concern " for our souls was genuine you would have at least used your own words, not the same hack job that is beng sent out to every high traffic Hindu discussion site and mailing list. You are here to convert and ( as your faith allows ) being decietful in your purpose. You slipped up, as often happens when people are being dishonest, and presented your true purpose with the text I quoted.

Sister, If I use my own words you will not believe me, so i quoted your scriptures that u considered to be word of God, whats wrong in doing that?

I am not deceitful in my purpose, I am completely honest.

First of all this quote isn't from the Yajur Veda, but the Isa Upanishad (likewise I can not find any of the other verses you quoted from the Yajur Veda, are you sure you are qouting the right scripture, as I don't recall the Yajur Veda having 40 books), and I've never seen it translated in the manner you have posted. Rather I find the verse translated as- Or of a similar variation. I'd be curious though to see if anyone has seen a translation similar to the one Mazhar posted.

I searched the web for you, go here and see the 9th verse.

Mazhar, Thank you for agreeing that sound is form. Yes sound is invisble to our ears just like paintings are not audible to our ears. That only proves the similarity and that they are both creations or phenomena of this world.

 

The difference is the name of God or the Murti of God can by the will of God be invested by Him with His own presence. Are you suggesting Allah's name is not Holy. No of course not you would never say such a thing. Allah's presence in His name is what makes it holy. And in the same way the Lord's presence in/as the murti makes the murti holy also.

 

Not every murti on every Hindu altar is the true presence of the Supreme Lord. Please do not misunderstand here. I am not a Hindu. However if the Lord agrees to appear in that murti form who are you or I to say He cannot. And if the Lord agrees to be present in His name who are we to disagree.

 

This is simple logic. You cannot say He can appear as His name and not His murti. The Lord can and will do what He wants.

Brother thiest, it is illogical to compare the sound form with idol form. You say that we can hear sound, cannot see it: we can see idol and cannot hear it. So, you saying that we cannot hear idol is illogical as idol can not speak nor it can help you. As regard sound form, we make the sound ourselves, from our own mouth, we do not create instruments or play instruments for the sounds. So the difference is that our sound in natural i.e. given by God but idol is not natural. So we call Allah's name with the sound which Allah gave us. But that is not the case with the idol.

I thibk Idol Worship is good because it helps increase the concentration. I helps you stay focussed on the object(namely idol) thereby helps you have better communication with GOD.

Brother but your sacred vedas prohobit the idol worship.

"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti." Yajurveda 40:9

Mazhar,

Please educate us on this subject:

Rules for "Lending Money without charging Interest"

Also, if your are able, to explain the same in regards to:

"Lending Money without charging Interest for students to pay for University tuition"

Your question can be changed in an answer:

"Lending Money without charging Interest" is the rule itself whether you are giving loan to anybody, do not charge interest.

You asked about rules, then brothe rules are simple that if u r lending money then do not charge interest and take back only principle amount irrespective of when the loan is paid back in 5 years or 10 yeas or 100 years.

And Allah says in Quran that give enought time to the debtor to pay off his loan and it is even better for you to discharge his loan if he is not able to pay.

I hope it answers. But you an ask further if you want.

They are different. They have different names, and different functions. Based on your tradition Archangel Gabriel gave Abraham and Ishmael the Black Stone to be the foundation of Kaaba and all Muslims try to pay their respect to it by kissing it or by pointing to it during the 7 circumambulations of Kaaba.

Just because gabrail gave it to ibrahim proves that black stone is the representation of Allah? No. It was just a foundation, the first step in the formation and at the time of prophet muhammad when it was rebuilt, it was the last step, the stone was put lat ast by muhammad pbuh and other people together.

 

So Mazhar You meditate or recite the Quoranic verses proclaiming the name of Allah which has a distinct sound FORM. Allah according to muslims have 99 names so those names are forms of Allah in sound vibration.

 

So in actual fact you also worship Allah in his form as sound vibration.

 

 

I gave the answer above.

 

I also know every muslim shows great respect to the Quran book why?

 

By this I mean the Quran would not be touched by any muslim unless he cleanses himself why? You would not take the Quran into unclean places like for example toilets is it not?

 

Is the Quran not a representation of Allah? Meaning do you not consider Allah's words (Quran) to be representitive of Allah?

 

 

Quran is the final word of God. We respect Quran is it the Book of Signs, the verses in quran are signs. We respect it because it is a book of Allah and it contains the name of Allah and His mesenger and it contains the name of many messengers.

Didnt u respect ur scriptures? will u take the Veda in an unclean place? No. Respecting the word of God does not mean that it is the representation of God.

I may ask you Is Veda not a representation of God? Meaning do you not consider God's words (Veda) to be representitive of God?

Consider these words carefully because if you say the Quran is not Allah in the form of words then Allah is not Ominiscient/Omnipresent.

 

 

There is no verse in quran or any sahih hadith (saying) of prophet muhammad that Allah is omni present. But Allah's knowledge is everywhere, it is spread everywhere, He knows everything and He has power over all things.

Mazhar,

 

Now what remains is if you consider the name of Allah to be a creation of this mundane world or do you accept that the name of Allah is spiritual and Holy and therefore not a product of the mundane world but Allah come to you in sound form.

 

You must consider the names of Allah to be holy or else why would you recite Them?

 

This is an essential question.

 

Brother Thiest,

I understood ur question completely. Why are you trying to compare the sound form with the idols? There is no such comparison. We have ears to listen, if we do not have ears then how there will be effective communication?

And further, sound is an invisible form. It can not be seen but idols ae physical.

Mazhar,

 

 

During Muslim holy days, the pastimes of the prophet are enacted on stage, correct?

 

What historical events are dramatised on stage at religious feastivals?

 

Are these staging of religious past events not contradicting the injuctions of the koran?

 

 

I didn't understand ur question brother. May be u r translating it wrong.

Pranam

 

 

Yes but they are fair game for you, so that you have to convert them enslave them or even kill them and there is no sin in that. So where is your heart all you guys do is hurt others who do not share your views.

 

 

Allah says in Quran that if u kill any human being (whether muslim or non-muslim) unless for murder or creating mischief on the land then u have killed whole of humanity. And If u save any human being (whether muslim or non-muslim) then u have saved whole of humanity.

So brother, killing any innocent human being is a big sin in Islam.

Such a god in my book is a sadist, who makes us imperfect and take delight in seeing us suffer.

Pranam

Such is your shallow understanding of God, you guys have a lot to evolve to come to a simple understanding even a street cleaner hindu will tell you that he suffers because of his own Karma, he understands he is not this body which is for ever changing diseased and getting old.

 

Brother we may get problems in our life because of ur deeds but Quran says that this life is the test for the hereafter and we all are undergoing a test. Allah examines different people with different things, e.g. Allah gives some one wealth then He sees that whether the prson surf it in the way of Allah or not. Some one is poor, not because his deeds in this world (as I said it may be) but if his deeds are good and he is in problem that this is that test for him. Quran also says that we will surely test all of you with hunger, fear of death.

Pranam

Above is your misconception and therefore Vedic knowledge which in material terms is a rocket science and you have not even reached kindergarten, how would you understand Vedas ?

 

I quoted your scriptures, I think I am right and if u think I am wrong then correct me, it is ur duty to correct me as a hindu.

RITUALS OF VISHNU WORSHIP

Describing about the rituals connected with the worship of lord Vishnu, lord Mahaddeva told Parvati– A devotee can worship Lord Vishnu by making his idol. This mode of worship is known as ‘Sthapita’ (installation of an idol). There are also some sacred places related with lord Vishnu which are called ‘Swayam-Vyakata’ (self manifested) like Indradyumna Sarovar, (Kurma sthan), Kashi, Prayag, Dwarka, Naimisharanya, Mathura etc. In all these holy places, Lord Vishnu had manifested himself. A devotee should get up early in the morning and perform ‘aachaman’. He should then chant the holy name of Lord Vishnu. He should take his bath and sit down to worship Lord Vishnu.

A devotee should install idols of Laxmi-Narayana on a beautiful pedestal and adorn it with flowers. He should then make offerings of various articles like akshat, fruits, flowers, etc. to the deity. While worshipping, it is most necessary that a devotee followes the rituals as mentioned in the ancient scriptures like Shruti, Smriti, Vedas etc. He should chant the shlokas of Purush-Sukta as well as the cryptic mantra for the accomplishment of ‘Shodashopachar’. He should light a ghee lamp and make offerings of articles like camphor and betel leaves to Lord Vishnu. While making offerings in the sacrificial-fire, chanting of a shloka either from Purushsukta or Shrisukta is madatory.

 

Thats what I said, that why you make idols to worship God?

Kaaba is the house (temple) in which the Black Stone (deity) resides. Do Muslims ever stand on the Black Stone? No. What would happen if someone tried to do that? The deity (an object directly representing God) is obviously the Black Stone. That is why the Prophet kissed it as sacred. We climb the temples to hang new flags.

Brother understand something very clearly and I said it before that:

Kaaba includes the black stone. They are not different. back stone is a part of kaaba. the black stone DOES NOT REPRESENT GOD AT ALL.