LoveroftheBhagavata

Go see a good tantric and ask him to perform the kind of exorcism that he thinks would best resolve your predicament.

Saint Kabir 1398 A.D - 1448 A.D

<TABLE cellPadding=10 width=550 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width=550>Saint Kabir Das (kabir, Arabic for "great", dasa, Sanskrit for "slave" or "servant"), is widely acknowledged as one of the great personality of the Bhakti movement in North India. He was as is widely acknowledged born in Year 1398 A.D.(71 years before Guru Nanak). Kabirpanthis (followers of Kabir) say that he lived upto the age of 120 years and give date of his death as 1518, but relying on the research of Hazari Prased Trivedi, a British Scholar Charlotte Vaudenville is inclined to lend credence to these dates and has prooven that 1448 is probably the correct date of Saint Kabir's demise.

He is one of the medieval Indian saints of Bhakti and Sufi movement whose compositions figure in Sikh Scripture, the Guru Granth Sahib. From among all of them, Kabir's contribution is the largest, 227 Padas in 17 ragas and 237 slokas. Under each raga or musical mode marking a section of the Holy Book, Kabir's hymns appear at the head of Bhagat Bani, a generic name for the works of contributors other than the Gurus. The presence of a substantial amount of Kabir's verse in the Sikh Scripture and chronologically he being the predecessor of Guru Nanak, founder of the Sikh faith, led some Western scholars to describe him as the forerunner of Sikhism. Some have even called him the preceptor of Guru Nanak There is, however, ample evidence to prove that Guru Nanak and Kabir had ever met their periods of time in fact do not coincide. Kabir's compositions do figure in what are known as Goindval Pothis, anthologies of the hymns of the Gurus along with those of some of the Bhaktas prepared in the time of Guru AmarDas, Nanak III. They were inclucled in the Guru Granth Sahib as well But this happened much later when Guru Arjan, fifth in spiritual line from the Founder, compiled the Holy Book Besides his own works and those of his four predecessors, he entered in it hymns of some saints and mystics, both Hindu and Muslim, Kabir was one of them.

Kabir lived in the fifteenth Century after Christ, which was a time of great political upheaval in India. As is true of many contemporary religious teachers, very little reliable information concerning Kabir's life is available, though there is no dearth of legend gathering around him. Kabir's life was centred around Kashi, also called Banaras (Varanasi) Legend has it that he was actually the son of a Brahmin widow who abandoned him and that he was found by a Muslim weaver named Niru, who adopted the boy and taught him the weaver's trade. It is not clear whether he ever married, but tradition gives him a wife named Loi and two children. His caste was that of Julaha and from his sayings his caste's heriditary occupation of weaving. On the basis of modern research, it seems probable that Kabir belonged to a family of non-celibate yogis converted, not long before and to a considerable degree superficially to Islam. From the writings of Kabir it seems that his knowledge of Islam was slight, rather in his poetical utterances (Bani) a wealth of Hathayoga terminology and a thought structure which bears obvious resemblance to Nath Yogis. Nath Yogis in addition to the yogic conception that all truth is experimental, i.e. to be realized within the body with the aid of psycho-physical practices, concentration, control of breathing and thus making the body incorruptible and the yogis immortal.

Bhakti movement was started by hindu saints while Sufi mysticism by Muslim saints in medieval India (1200-1700). Kabir immensely contributed to the Bhakti Movement and is considered a pioneer of Bhakti along with Ravidas, Farid, and Namdev. His concept of love as a path of suffering may possibly indicate, in some measure, a debt to the Sufis. These and other elements from Nath tradition, bhakti and sufism, kabir combined with his own mystical nature and produced synthesis which is the distinctive religion of Kabir. Tradition tells us that Swami Ramanand was his Guru (a teacher).

In fifteenth century, Benaras was the seat of Brahmin orthodoxy and their learning center. Brahmins had strong hold on all the spheres of life in this city. Thus Kabir belonging to a low caste of Julaha had to go through immense tough time of preaching his idealogy. Kabir and his followers would gather at one place in the city and meditate. Brahmins ridiculed him for preaching to prostitutes and other low castes. Kabir satirically denounced Brahmins and thus won hearts of people around him. There is no doubt that single most famous important person from the city of Benaras today is none other than Saint Kabir.

Kabir through his couplets not only reformed the mindset of common villagers and low caste people but give them self confidence to question Brahmins. It was 100 years after him that Tulsidas broke the hegemony of Brahmins by writing Ram Charitra Manas, a poem of Ramayana at Benaras which went against the tradition of Brahmins. Kabir was in fact first person to go against Brahmins and be so successfull. Benaras was devasted by an attack by a Muslim invader Tamur Lang or "Tamur the lame" during his time. Kabir also denounced mullahs and their rituals of bowing towards kaba five times a day. Because of open condemnation of established and popular religoins, Kabir became an object of the wrath of both Hindus and Muslims in and around Benaras. Kabir travelled in and around Benaras to preach his beliefs.

Kabir believed in sell-surrender and God's bhakti. The Kabirpanthis follow a lite of singing the praises of God, prayers and a simple and pure life of devotion. Kabir recommends ceaseless singing of God's praises. He virtually suggests withdrawal from the world. He is against al1 ritualistic and ascetic methods as means to salvation. It is true that Kabir refers to some yogic terms in describing the meditational and mystic methods of the yogis. But, there is no ground to suggest that he himself recommends the yogic path. In fact, far from recommending yoga, he is quite strong in condemning ascetic or yogic methods, and says that yogis, in their meditations, become prey to maya. The point wil1, however be considered further while comparing Radical bhakti with Nathism.

The moral tone is quite strong in Kabir's hymns. "Kabir deck thyself with garments of love. Love them is given honour whose body and soul speak the truth.The ruby of goodness is greater than all thc mines of rubies, all the wealth of three worlds resides in the goodness of heart. When thc wealth of contentment is won, all other wealth is as dust.Where there is mercy, there is strength, where there is forgivenesss there is He.The man who is kind and practises righteousness, who remains passive in the aftairs of the world, who considers creatures of the world as his own self, he attains the immortal Being; the true God is ever with him. Kabir suggests inward worship and remembrance of God. For him, true worship is only inwards. Put on the rosary inward. By counting beads, the world will be full of light. He clearly suggests moral discrimination betwecn good and bad deeds. What can the helpless road do, when the traveller does not walk understandingly. "What can one do, if, with lamp in hand, one falls in the well.Or goes astray with open eyes. Discern ye now between good and evil."

It is not surprising that Kabir's satire was brought to bear not simply on the vices and weaknesses of men but reached through and beyond them to the very system themselves. It was the authority of Vedas and Quran that more then the authority of Brahmin or Qazi which Kabir attacked. He rebelled against the pretension of resolving by the means of books or by way of authority, the mystery of human conditions and the problem of liberation (Moksha). He spent his last 40 days living in a place where it was believed that if you die you will born as a Donkey in next life.

Kabir is a firm advocate of ahimsa. His doctrine extends even to the nondestruction of flowers. " The life of the living you strike dead and you say your slaughter makes it dedicated. It is blood haunting you and those who taught you.They fast all day, and at night they slaughter the cow; here murder, there devotion; how can this please God? O' Kazi, by whose order doth thou use thy knife.When you declare the sacrifice of an animal as your religion, what else is sin. If you regard yourself a saint, whom will you call a butcher ?The goat eats grass and is skinned, what will happen to those who eat (goat's) meat? "Do not kill poor jiva, murder will not be forgiven even if you hear a million Puranas. Among the fifty commandments laid down for the followers of Kabir, vegetarianism is one of them. For Kabir, moral life involves adherence to ahimsa.

In common with all monastic, ascetic or otherworldly sects, Kabir does not think well of women. Ihere is almost a tirade against them in the hymns of Kabir. Woman is characterised as "a black cobra', thc pit of hell and the refuse of the world." She is considered to be a hurdle in the path of thc spiritual progress of man. He spoke, "woman ruins everything when she comes near a man; Devotion, salvation and divine knowledge no longer enter his soul." His views, about woman are also evident from all his vehement attacks against maya. Almost everywhere he links maya to a woman who is out to entice and entrap man, and destroy his spiritual lifc. Such views about woman from a married person arc, indeed, quite uncommon. The cosmological views of Kabir give a clear clue to his worldview. He finds Niranjana to be the creator of the world; maya or woman. And this woman stands between man and god. She is there to entice him away from Him.

Kabir composed no systematic treatise, rather his work consists of many short didactic poems, often expressed in terse vigorous language in the form of Padas, Dohas, and Ramainis (forms of poetry in Indian languages). Besides his work recorded in 1604 A.D. in Guru Granth Sahib by Guru Arjan Dev, Nanak V, and preserved inviolate since, two other collections exist - Kabir Granthavali, and Bijak. In his poems, he was quick to tell the illustrations of moral and spiritual truth in the incidents of everyday life , and many of his similes and metaphors are very striking.

The famous gurbani by Bhagat kabir ji from Guru Granth sahib is Gagan Damama Baajooh pariho nishaan-e-ghao, khet jo maandyo surma aab jujhan ka tao, Sura so pahchaniye jo lare deen ke het, purja purja kate marhe kabho na chhade khet

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Kabir (1398 - 1518)

Many legends abound about the birth, life and death of Kabir, one of <COUNTRY-REGION />

India</PLACE /></COUNTRY-REGION />'s most quoted poets and mystics. His birth itself is shrouded in mystery, some say he was the son of a Brahman widow, others that he was of virgin birth, what is known though is that he was brought up in a family of muslim weavers. Legend has it that he was actually the son of a Brahmin widow who abandoned him and that he was found by a Muslim weaver named Niru, who adopted the boy and taught him the weaver's trade.

He was never formally educated and was almost completely illiterate. According to legend, the only word that he ever learned how to write was "Rama".

Legend says that he reliquished his body when he was about 120 years old. There is a famous legend about his death; When he died, his Hindu and Muslim followers started fighting about the last rites. When they lifted the cloth covering his body, they found flowers instead. The Muslim followers buried their half and the Hindu cremated thier half. In Maghar, his tomb and samadhi still stand side by side.

Kabir Das (kabir, Arabic for "great", dasa, Sanskrit for "slave" or "servant") was born in the year 1398AD, 71 years before Guru Nanak. He is one of the medieval Indian saints of the Bhakti and Sufi movement whose compositions figure in Sikh Scripture, the Guru Granth Sahib. From among all of them, Kabir's contribution is the largest.Kabir lived in the fifteenth century after Christ, which was a time of great political upheaval in <COUNTRY-REGION />

India</PLACE /></COUNTRY-REGION />. As is true of many contemporary religious teachers, very little reliable information concerning Kabir's life is available, though there is no dearth of legend around him. Kabir's life was centred around Kashi, also called

Banaras</PLACE /> (<CITY />

Varanasi</PLACE /></CITY />). Kabir through his couplets not only reformed the mindset of common villagers and low caste people but gave them self-confidence to question Brahmins.

Kabir believed in self-surrender and God's bhakti. He suggests inward worship and remembrance of God. For him, true worship is only inwards. According to Kabir, all life is an interplay of two spiritual principles. One is the personal soul (Jivatma) and the other is God (Paramatma). It is Kabir's view that salvation is the process of bringing into union these two divine principles.

Kabir composed no systematic treatise, rather his work consists of many short didactic poems, often expressed in terse vigorous language in the form of Padas, Dohas, and Ramainis (forms of poetry in Indian languages). Kabir has written much poetry and song. All of Kabir's recorded verses are in Hindi. His lyrics are characterised by a free use of the vernacular, and is unfettered by the grammatical bonds of his day. Another beauty of Kabir's poetry is that he picks up situations that surround our daily lives. Thus, even today, Kabir's poetry is relevant and helpful in both social and spiritual context. Following Kabir means understanding one's inner self, realizing oneself, accepting oneself as is, and becoming harmonious with one's surroundings. It is this quality which has made his philosophy accessible to generations of Indians.

Are you looking for me?

Are you looking for me? I am in the next seat.

My shoulder is against yours.

you will not find me in the stupas, not in Indian shrine

rooms, nor in synagogues, nor in cathedrals:

not in masses, nor kirtans, not in legs winding

around your own neck, nor in eating nothing but

vegetables.

When you really look for me, you will see me

instantly -- you will find me in the tiniest house of time.

Kabir says: Student, tell me, what is God?

He is the breath inside the breath.

____________

Moko kahan dhundhere bande

Mein toh tere paas mein

Na teerath mein, na moorat mein

Na ekant niwas mein

Na mandir mein, na masjid mein

Na kabe kailas mein

Mein toh tere paas mein bande

Mein toh tere paas mein

Na mein jap mein, na mein tap mein

Na mein barat upaas mein

Na mein kiriya karam mein rehta

Nahin jog sanyas mein

Nahin pran mein nahin pind mein

Na brahmand akas mein

Na mein prakuti prawar gufa mein

Nahin swasan ki swans mein

Khoji hoye turat mil jaoon

Ik pal ki talas mein

Kahet Kabir Suno Bhai Sadho

Mein Toh Hoon Viswas Mein

For me, nothing quite rivals the drama and tension that was so evidently palpable during the dice gambling match in the royal assembly of the Kurus, including of course the attempted disrobing of Draupadi. But yes, I do agree that the fall of Bhishma Pitamaha was another extremely gripping moment, as was the encircling and killing of Abhimanyu, together with Arjuna's revenge on Jayadratha the next day. I can watch those sequences time and again without ever experiencing the slightest feeling of boredom.

How is Laloo of any relevance to Audarya Fellowship?

Indeed, his posts smack of literalist fundamentalism of the most abject variation. I am at variance with you on much, but I deeply respect your entire approach and for me, belief should not be equal to jettisoning the capacity to use one's mind in order to try to make sense of what we read in shastra.

I must say there is something in your personality that brings out the worst in me. Presently I would like to wring your scrawny little neck for that last comment.

 

As was just pointed out you are so clueless as to consider Vaisnavism as a religion that you can join. You poor little sectarian soul you.

 

I'm not reading his messages coz he's on my ignore list, but you're right on, Theist. Him and that Suresh loser aka tackleberry are both ignoramuses of the same stripe. Typical Southern Indian narrow sectarians!

Just backtrack on this thread and you will see it was you who started about about this mental measurement stuff, so what can you expect from dark warrior. I can't believe that a very intelligent person like you would have a collection of such expletives. Sorry

Dark Warrior is on my ignore list, he can blather foolishly all he wants, it's all water on a duck's back to me. Malati, I suppose that I'm the one who initiated the name-calling too, eh?

SB 10.90

TEXT 40

TEXT

yadu-vaàça-prasütänäà

puàsäà vikhyäta-karmaëäm

saìkhyä na çakyate kartum

api varñäyutair nåpa

SYNONYMS

yadu-vaàça—in the Yadu dynasty; prasütänäm—of those who were born; puàsäm—men; vikhyäta—famous; karmaëäm—whose deeds; saìkhyä—the counting; na çakyate—cannot; kartum—be done; api—even; varña—in years; ayutaiù—tens of thousands; nåpa—O King (Parékñit).

TRANSLATION

The Yadu dynasty produced innumerable great men of famous deeds. Even in tens of thousands of years, O King, one could never count them all.

SB 10.90.41

TEXT 41

TEXT

tisraù koöyaù sahasräëäm

añöäçéti-çatäni ca

äsan yadu-kuläcäryäù

kumäräëäm iti çrutam

SYNONYMS

tisraù—three; koöyaù—(times) ten million; sahasräëäm—thousand; añöä-açéti—eighty-eight; çatäni—hundreds; ca—and; äsan—were; yadu-kula—of the Yadu family; äcäryäù—teachers; kumäräëäm—for the children; iti—thus; çrutam—has been heard.

TRANSLATION

I have heard from authoritative sources that the Yadu family employed 38,800,000 teachers just to educate their children.

SB 10.90.42

TEXT 42

TEXT

saìkhyänaà yädavänäà kaù

kariñyati mahätmanäm

yaträyutänäm ayuta-

lakñeëäste sa ähukaù

SYNONYMS

saìkhyänam—the counting; yädavänäm—of the Yädavas; kaù—who; kariñyati—can do; mahä-ätmanäm—of the great personalities; yatra—among whom; ayutänäm—of tens of thousands; ayuta—(times) ten thousand; lakñeëa—with (three) hundred thousand (persons); äste—was present; saù—he; ähukaù—Ugrasena.

TRANSLATION

Who can count all the great Yädavas, when among them King Ugrasena alone was accompanied by an entourage of thirty trillion attendants?

PURPORT

Çréla Viçvanätha Cakravarté explains why specifically thirty trillion, rather than an indefinite number of tens of trillions, is stated here to be the number of King Ugrasena’s attendants. He does so by citing the interpretational rule of kapiïjalädhikaraëa, the logic of “referring to pigeons”: Somewhere in the Vedas is found the injunction that “one should sacrifice some pigeons.” This plural number should be taken to mean not an indiscriminate number of pigeons, but precisely three of them, since the Vedas never leave any matter vague. The rules of Mémäàsä interpretation take three as the default number when no specific number is given.

One more thing. This is like in the late seventities when Iskconites all were saying the earth was flat. YES THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. I remem challenging them with the example of airplane travel and satelitte orbits and mapping of the planet. their stock answer was "The demigods must be playing tricks on all the demons by making them think the earth is round." LOL I swear that is the truth. Anybody who was around then can confirm this embarassing chapter. Dark Warrior is still living his own version.

Well put, Theist. This is so hilarious a depiction by the literalists that it defies description. I'd rather be lumped with the asuras any day than insult my intelligence and reasoning faculties in such grotesque fashion. Cheers

Please explain how Ugrsena could have accomodated his billions of bodyguards and their families in Mathura.

Not billions, but THIRTY TRILLION, when the population of the globe is currently short of 7 billion.

Yes here we do agree. I have asked this question about Ugrsena's bodyguards several time on this forum and never gotten a good answer, still we that question these things are heretics to the orthodox Vaisnavas who for some reason think their Vaisnava position is dependent on the 3d literal interpretation of such stories. This to me says they have little faith and depth of understanding when it comes to Vaisnavism in general. Which is precisely my point in saying they are misplacing their faith . Somewhat analgous to mistaking the finger for the moon in Lao Tsu's saying.

Indeed, Theist. For all our philosophical differences, I think that people like Kulapavana and yourself have a far more sensible approach to such portions of the Bhagavatam than the strict literalists. Whilst fully committed to Srila Prabhupada's shiksha, you guys do strive not to be overburdened by mythology and poetic embellishments. For me, that's the right way to go, no question about that.

Regards

Keep screwing yourself, you sad git. I'm not even reading your nonsensical claptrap anymore, since you're from now on ignored by me. If other people are sensible as well, they will put you on their lists just the way I did. Just go suck up to Ramanuja's mummy, you sorry donkey!

As I said, that is all that can be expected from a moron with an IQ of 65!

You display your stupidity by implying that I meant that the opinions of Vaishnavas are any different from yours. Clearly, I was inferring that your position reflects the mainstream mythological view and that no rationalist can buy that seriously. Ramanuja, Madhva and all others can shove it up theirs. I don't give a toss about their rubbish.

Just sod off, moron. Given that you cannot even comprehend English properly, you're not worth replying to anymore. Farewell. Expect no further responses! LOSER!!!

By the way, I'm putting you on my ignore list, stinking little Hindu apologist that you are!

LOB, I think it was you who started to behave appalling. Please don't go that low!

Loverofthe bhagavat, you will sound you lost in the debate if you parade your IQ to make it appear that you are more superior than Dark Warrior.

btw, I my sons and my ex-husband are Mensa members but we don’t ram their IQs into anyone’s faces.

 

Then may you please tell me where I started behaving appallingly with Mr. Good Manners Dark Warrior. Then again, considering than I'm not a Vaishnava, I have to be the bad one, isn't it?

When someone begins to call you stupid, moronic, idiotic and so forth repeatedly, it is all too fair to put them in their proper place. But knowing you, Malati, and what many others think of you, I'm not surprised by your post. Just refrain from addressing yourself to me henceforth. I don't assign much importance to your opinion/s. Just ignore my postings as well.

The fact is, I have systematically provided refutations of your pathetic opinions, and you don't have the guts to respond. Then, you criticise my knowledge ofr 'indian religions'.

 

The same refutations that you're the only one to take seriously, eh? Get a life, moron, only you take yourself seriously. Ciao, pigheaded ass! Then, I have to go lenient on you, after all, you have an IQ score of 65 - 65 it was, right?

I would request Loverofthebhagavataji & dark warriorji to have peace of mind & don't fight with each other.

The thread started with the topic"Why Krishna only"

You're right, my friend. However, he keeps slandering everyone who differ from him with the basest adjectives and expletives. Someone has to give that idiot a taste of his own medicine. Anyways, I'm outta here. Let Dark Warrior read his own replies.

And just as a point of clarification, when you say 'keep your ignorance to yourself', does that mean that I should not post on here if my opinion is not the same as yours?

That is exactly what this pathetic believer with his subhuman intelligence means. He thinks that he is the only one who is familiar with the customary Hindu rhetoric with regards to academic studies of Indian religions. The amusing thing is, he takes himself seriously and considers that the rest of us should bow down to his ridiculous mythologies. What a sad, semi-literate git! I'm off talking with this gibbon. I'd give birth before being able to make this ape view things sans his sectarian lenses! Taraar!

1) I am not a Gaudiya Vaishnava. I know that there are sectarian texts like Brahma Samhita and Gopala Tapani in that Sampradaya.

Where did I say you were a GV? Funny how idiotic you are, you BELIEVER, HEHEHE!

It is idiots like you, who do not possess a lick of sense, yet see it fit to act scholarly about Vaishnavism, that are ruining our culture. Steer clear of our sampradaya if you want to maintain your dignity.

Again, what is your IQ? Oh let me take a guess - 65? It can't be much too far from that, I bet!

Acharyas all had their own axes to grind, hence I rarely assign much credibility to their lucubrations. Whether Ramanuja or Madhva or even Shankara, no rational person can afford to stomach their biases in toto. Those who do not want to think for themselves and need to rely on disciplic authority can freely indulge themselves. I prefer to side with the Rationalists, with a capital R.

I'm well aware of all these laughable points that you make. After all, I spent nearly 15 years in Gaudiya Vaishnavism. The fact is, I would trust the professional opinions of people who have spent lifetimes studying the texts rather than fall for the humorous ramblings of a believer like yourself, whose sole objective is to engage in religious apologetics. Good bye, loser!

3) Brahma Sutras are dated to be post buddhistic because they refer to Buddhism and Jainism. But this is negated by the fact that Sutras can be interpreted in such a way that they do not refer to Buddhism and Jainism at all.

 

4) Puranas are considered to have emerged in the 1st Century AD. But the Upanishads, as well as the Vedas make many references to Puranas and Ithihasas.

Just more myths, and blind faith. Have you heard of something called interpolation? And sorry, time is too precious to be frittered in conversation with a pea-brained nincompoop such as you. I've got far too many more urgent tasks to attend to. What is your IQ by the way?

Just lastly, try responding to my question on the Vedic universe thread. What do you make of Ugrasena's 30 trillion bodyguards?

But amazingly, their philosophies mesh together.

 

One more Vishnu-centred fairy tale. To any reasonably intelligent observer, there is little in between the different groupings of texts that matches. Only religious fundamentalists try to find loose ends to tie together within the broad array of scriptures. Then again, arguing with a Vaishnava is akin to trying to get a jackass to eat jam. I give up. You have the last word, Dark Warrior.

Thanks for a different perspective on this. But are you saying V evolved out of semitic religions? Is there any proof for this in history, like meetings between the teachers of both schools?

No, that is not what I am saying. However, the similarities between the stories of Christ and Krishna are way too striking to be coincidental. Theologically as well, numerous correspondences have been found. This is a very wide theme, though, and I just do not have the time or patience to deal with this here.

Your ignorance is remarkable. You have quoted so much nonsense already about Hari's supremacy not being provable in the Vedas, and that Krishna was 'cremated', with Rukmini commiting 'Sati', that I do not know why I waste my energy trying to answer you.

 

I'd be willing to have our IQs compared anyday, Govi. Tell me when and where, and we'll arrange that. I'm all game.