Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 At 10:24 PM 3/7/99 -0800, you wrote: >>>> Sexuality is a marvelous positive fertile energy. But it is also the most dangerous to the spiritual aspirant, the most misunderstood, and misapplied. <<<< To me, this is bologna. There is nothing dangerous to the spiritual aspirant but ignorance of Truth. All else is either harmless or beneficent. >>>> ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, even Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Hi Madhya, > In Madhyanandi"s view, all persons are equally male and female. One doesn't need a partner of the 'other' sex to complement what one already Is. -snip- But then, every human being possesses both phallus and vagina, linga and yoni. Both in the quality of energies that comprise your subtle body and in the middle of your face: mouth and tongue. >snip< >Now, if you are still with me, if I told you that the most delicious, >sin-sational, erotic ecstasy could be had by following the indications >offerred in Seduction Inside-Out, would you believe me? Sure, but my question is this: your post is addressed to a tantra sadhana list. Don't they already know these things? Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Dharma; The TantraSadhana list is quite new--a couple of weeks. So we are only just beginning to feel our way from out of lurking to actual conversation. The question of sexuality when one is curious about Kundalini or anything labelled 'tantra' is bound to arise. You are welcome to join the list if you wish. I have made it clear, (I believe), that the list is NOT a forum for discussing neo-tantra or Western 'sacred sex', but the topic is valuable, if approached with sincerity. Don't know if this answers your questionn... Madhya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Dharma wrote: > Sure, but my question is this: your post is addressed to a tantra sadhana > list. Don't they already know these things? *sigh* tantra is not about sex! in buddhist tantra, we speak of a union, a union of bliss and sunyata or wisdom. its *like* the union of mother/father, but dont confuse the symbol for the reality. The whole point is to attain liberation from suffering for oneself and all beings. its a lot of things, its very sacred, and its like playing with nuclear weapons. ie: not for the unitiated or unguided. imo --janpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 >"Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > >On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Dharma wrote: >> Sure, but my question is this: your post is addressed to a tantra sadhana >> list. Don't they already know these things? > > *sigh* tantra is not about sex! > >in buddhist tantra, we speak of a union, a union of bliss and sunyata or >wisdom. > >its *like* the union of mother/father, but dont confuse the symbol for the >reality. The whole point is to attain liberation from suffering for >oneself and all beings. > >its a lot of things, its very sacred, and its like playing with nuclear >weapons. ie: not for the unitiated or unguided. > >imo > >--janpa > > Janpa, thanks for your comments. I have read a couple of texts regarding tibetan buddhist tantra. I liked them very much. One or two places where my own views diverged, but 90% agreement. As I attempted to communicate in my post to the T list, yoga is good for sex, but sex for yoga--that is another matter. Not that people shouldn't feel free to experiment--or do whatever they like. But if someone asks me, I will say that it is very difficult to cross the line from sexual desire to spiritual realization. Not impossible...just very, very difficult. Madhya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Those interested in transformation / sublimation will find valuable articles at the Sant Kirpal Singh website: http://www.humboldt1.com/~jiva/kirpal.htm Search for keywords like Ojas, Brahmacarya, chastity, forgiveness. An excerpt from the lecture OJAS: THE POWER OF CHASTITY: "Those people who are not chaste, given up to unchastity, they have no hope for this Ojas Power. So, Ojas is the Power which helps you to transcend into the Beyond. That is why "chastity is Life, sexuality is death."" Radical as this may sound, I cannot but agree. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 At 07:15 PM 3/8/99 -0000, you wrote: >"Those people who are not chaste, given up to unchastity, they have no hope >for this Ojas Power. So, Ojas is the Power which helps you to transcend into >the Beyond. That is why "chastity is Life, sexuality is death."" > >Radical as this may sound, I cannot but agree. I cannot help but think it's the most ridiculous, dogmatic statement I've ever read. Sexuality is responsible for the continuance of the species, and without it, the Human species would die out entirely. This obsession with chastity in spirituality/religion has caused so many people to turn away from it, that otherwise would have stuck with it. Sexuality is a deep and basic part of human nature, of human life. It's imprinted into our cells at a deep level. A statement like the above is utterly ridiculous to me. What is proposed, that we learn to split in two like individual cells in order to continue the species??? Sexuality, if sought as an escape or for physical pleasure alone, can be a barrier to spiritual growth, just like any OTHER seeking of pleasure for pleasure's sake. But such a sweeping condemnation of sexuality is nothing short of insane. Tim ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, even Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 > >Marcia Paul <jacpa > > > >Marcia Paul wrote: > >> I have not read or studied bookies tantra. > >For anyone who is interested that should read >books on tantra. <laughing> > >Marcia > > OH??? No gambling with sex?? LOL, Glo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Dear Jan, Thanks for the website information on Sant Kirpal Singh. Jill >"Those people who are not chaste, given up to unchastity, they have no hope >for this Ojas Power. So, Ojas is the Power which helps you to transcend into >the Beyond. That is why "chastity is Life, sexuality is death."" > >Radical as this may sound, I cannot but agree. > >Jan > > >------ >New hobbies? New curiosities? New enthusiasms? > >Sign up for a new email list today > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Hi Madhya, >The TantraSadhana list is quite new--a couple of weeks. So we are only >just beginning to feel our way from out of lurking to actual conversation. Ah I see... >The question of sexuality when one is curious about Kundalini or anything >labelled 'tantra' is bound to arise. > >You are welcome to join the list if you wish. I have made it clear, (I >believe), that the list is NOT a forum for discussing neo-tantra or Western >'sacred sex', but the topic is valuable, if approached with sincerity. I'd be interested to know how much of what you said in your last post could be classified as sexual tantra and how much is neo-tantra or Western "sacred sex." Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Hi janpa, >> Sure, but my question is this: your post is addressed to a tantra sadhana >> list. Don't they already know these things? > > *sigh* tantra is not about sex! Not all of it... just some of it... I think your guru is Tibetan Buddhist... According to a book I have here, Tibetan tantra includes the creation stage and completion stage. Sexual tantra (phyag rgya) is one of the yogas (rnal 'byor) or "extraordinary practices," which "are all called completion stage practices." Other extraordinary practices include Dream Yoga and Heat Yoga... It's my impression that not all teachers or all monasteries offer all of the yogas, but they may specialize. It is not considered necessary for a lama to study all the yogas... it is said that the practice of any one of them will lead to the goal. A friend of mine went to a large Tibetan monastery in Canada for the first year's work... In reading about the work the monastery offers, I noticed it said, "A partner may be provided." Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 > Tim Gerchmez <fewtch > > At 07:15 PM 3/8/99 -0000, you wrote: > > >"Those people who are not chaste, given up to unchastity, they > have no hope > >for this Ojas Power. So, Ojas is the Power which helps you to > transcend into > >the Beyond. That is why "chastity is Life, sexuality is death."" > > > >Radical as this may sound, I cannot but agree. > > I cannot help but think it's the most ridiculous, dogmatic statement I've > ever read. Sexuality is responsible for the continuance of the species, > and without it, the Human species would die out entirely. This obsession > with chastity in spirituality/religion has caused so many people to turn > away from it, that otherwise would have stuck with it. Shankara speaks of a sevenfold path of jnana yoga: 1) discrimination between the Real and unreal 2) renunciation of the fruit of one's actions 3) the accomplishments consisting of: a. tranquillity b. sense restraint c. abstention from actions that are not relevant to the maintenance of the body-mind or to the pursuit of enlightenment, endurance. 4) the urge towards liberation 5) listening to sacred lore 6) pondering of the truth of scriptures 7) meditation What about 3a, b and c - you don't agree with Shankara either, do you...? Where do you think drinking beer belongs? 3b or 3c or both? Dogmatic Shankara ? > Sexuality is a deep and basic part of human nature, of human life. It's > imprinted into our cells at a deep level. A statement like the above is > utterly ridiculous to me. What is proposed, that we learn to split in two > like individual cells in order to continue the species??? Some are concerned about the population explosion, combined with climatological changes and worldwide ongoing erosion of fertile soil. Cloning is a fact already, men can get children, before that we already had IVF and this is just the beginning so what's bugging? > Sexuality, if sought as an escape or for physical pleasure alone, can be a > barrier to spiritual growth, just like any OTHER seeking of pleasure for > pleasure's sake. But such a sweeping condemnation of sexuality is nothing > short of insane. Pleasures like drinking beer, > Tim? Read the entire article and report your ethical/moral concerns to the owner of the website. In doing so, behave according to 3a :>) As a friendly advice, study a couple of weeks on urdhva-retas... Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Dharma wrote: > > I think your guru is Tibetan Buddhist... According to a book I have here, > Tibetan tantra includes the creation stage and completion stage. Sexual > tantra (phyag rgya) is one of the yogas (rnal 'byor) or "extraordinary > practices," which "are all called completion stage practices." Other > extraordinary practices include Dream Yoga and Heat Yoga... i cant comment on this directly. may i just suggest you talk to a tibetan lama about it? generation and completion stage stuff is sometimes in the catagory of teachings that are passed down directly from master to student. so to respect this tradition, and since i am not a teacher, i can not comment. > It's my impression that not all teachers or all monasteries offer all of > the yogas, but they may specialize. It is not considered necessary for a > lama to study all the yogas... it is said that the practice of any one of > them will lead to the goal. > > A friend of mine went to a large Tibetan monastery in Canada for the first > year's work... In reading about the work the monastery offers, I noticed > it said, "A partner may be provided." *shrug* i dont know what this means. i only know what *i* do, and that is between me and Rinpoche. so you can ask me, but i will probably just shrug again and smile and ask you to ask an expert. i am not that. i mainly replied the first time in an effort to present another view. there is a book "Introduction to Tantra" i think by Lama Zopa or Lama Yeshe. You could find that one. maitri, --janpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 I have not read or studied bookies tantra. I have a few thoughts about sex energy. It seems to me that sex energy can go for either one of two uses. Sex energy can be used for the propagation of the species. Sex energy used this way does not require an awakened person. Sex energy can also be used to clean a dirty machine i.e. one that has accumulated a fair amount of grime and grease or negative reactional deposits. There is nothing bad or good about this. It just is. Sex energy can also be taken up. This requires a fair amount of discipline. I don't think it is possible at all for people who are clogged. To attempt it only leads to violence in one form or another. But for someone who has learned to live in their body the higher uses of sex energy can be ecstasy and creativity. To me it feels like riding a wave or riding in a body which is totally alive. But I also have to be able to bear it or suffer it. It feels like floating. There are spontaneous energy releases. First and foremost it requires discipline which is an ingredient I sometimes have in short supply. And also it seems to me that as I am able to bear more I am asked to bear more. In other words it isn't something for my pleasure only. These are just my thoughts. I don't claim to know anything at all. I am not an expert. So feel free to evaluate them. I may learn something. Marcia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Marcia Paul wrote: > I have not read or studied bookies tantra. For anyone who is interested that should read books on tantra. <laughing> Marcia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Hmm. Bookies have a form of tantra: it is to contemplate a cash flow as waves of Shakti. Cab drivers have a tantra: it is to ride the Great Dragon of the roadway and get straight to Nirvana, the cheapest way possible. Wise guys have a tantra: it's to cover their ass with lotus blossoms. Hmm. OM! .... Phil ... Phillip Burton <p_burton <http://www.austintx.net/pbek/1sthought.html> >Marcia Paul <jacpa > > > >Marcia Paul wrote: > >> I have not read or studied bookies tantra. > >For anyone who is interested that should read >books on tantra. <laughing> > >Marcia > > >------ >Is ONElist important to you? Has it changed your life? > >Come visit our new web site and share with us your stories Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 > Marcia Paul <jacpa > > > > Marcia Paul wrote: > > > I have not read or studied bookies tantra. > > For anyone who is interested that should read > books on tantra. <laughing> > > Marcia Seems to me you don't need a bookie or a book on tantra In this case, the expert is the practitioner. Rosicrucians state that it is better to have children when awakened, as this will make awakening for the children much easier. Instead of devoting middle and old age to spirituality, it should be started early in life as energy is at a higher level. You are right that the entire process isn't pleasant; there are three knots to pierce and they are perceived as resistance. When a knot is pierced, it is experienced as a big relief. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Hmm. Bookies have a form of tantra: it is to contemplate a cash flow as waves of Shakti. Cab drivers have a tantra: it is to ride the Great Dragon of the roadway and get straight to Nirvana, the cheapest way possible. Wise guys have a tantra: it's to cover their ass with lotus blossoms. Hmm. OM! .... Phil ... Phillip Burton <p_burton <http://www.austintx.net/pbek/1sthought.html> >Marcia Paul <jacpa > > > >Marcia Paul wrote: > > I have not read or studied bookies tantra. > >For anyone who is interested that should read >books on tantra. <laughing> >> >>Marcia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 1999 Report Share Posted March 9, 1999 Hi janpa, >> I think your guru is Tibetan Buddhist... According to a book I have here, >> Tibetan tantra includes the creation stage and completion stage. Sexual >> tantra (phyag rgya) is one of the yogas (rnal 'byor) or "extraordinary >> practices," which "are all called completion stage practices." Other >> extraordinary practices include Dream Yoga and Heat Yoga... > >i cant comment on this directly. may i just suggest you talk to a tibetan >lama about it? > >generation and completion stage stuff is sometimes in the catagory of >teachings that are passed down directly from master to student. so to >respect this tradition, and since i am not a teacher, i can not comment. The text I quoted from is the introduction to Sarah Harding's translation of _Creation and Completion_ by Jamgon Kongtrul... It was the text, to be studied ahead of time, for a weekend lecture series here by a visiting Rinpoche... He didn't talk much about the extraordinary practices, though the book and his comments did touch on them at times... It was mostly about the regular creation and completion stages. >there is a book "Introduction to Tantra" i think by Lama Zopa or Lama >Yeshe. You could find that one. Thanks, janpa... Actually, I'd be more interested in finding texts on some of the extraordinary practices... not so easy to find... Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 1999 Report Share Posted March 9, 1999 Hi Marcia, >.... Sex energy can also be used to clean >a dirty machine i.e. one that has accumulated a >fair amount of grime and grease or negative >reactional deposits. There is nothing bad or >good about this. It just is. > >Sex energy can also be taken up. This requires >a fair amount of discipline. I don't think it is >possible at all for people who are clogged. >To attempt it only leads to violence in one form >or another. But for someone who has learned >to live in their body the higher uses of sex energy >can be ecstasy and creativity. > >To me it feels like riding a wave or riding in a >body which is totally alive. But I also have to >be able to bear it or suffer it. It feels like floating. >There are spontaneous energy releases. You seem to be saying you have active Kundalini. If you're not aware that that's what it is, you might explore the Kundalini Gateway. http://www.list-server.net/kundalini/index.html There's a FAQ there and a place to join the K-list and talk with others who have active K. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 1999 Report Share Posted March 9, 1999 On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Dharma wrote: > > Thanks, janpa... Actually, I'd be more interested in finding texts on some > of the extraordinary practices... not so easy to find... > i should hope not! 1) for a lot of this stuff you have to have taken refuge as a buddhist. 2) you need a guru to do a lot of this stuff 3) some of this stuff is as i said before, like playing with nuclear weapons. Ear-whispered teachings are just that, oral transmission. its possible what you are looking for you will not find in a book. Some dharma publishers wont even sell certain texts unless a person has had the correct intiation. Now this is all relating to buddhist tantra, i do not know how vedanta tantra works in this vein. i do know that a lot of it is only available from a qualified meditation master. and imo, thats the way it should be for some of this stuff. some of it could lead a person to a wrong conclusion unless you've had all the teachings. wont even mention the energy stuff, you're from K-list, so you know about that. however, it is possible some of these 'secrets' are available to anyone. Sometimes the secret is that even if you read it, you still wont get it without further instruction. So they are self-kept secrets sometimes. maitri, --janpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 1999 Report Share Posted March 9, 1999 >>there is a book "Introduction to Tantra" i think by Lama Zopa or Lama >>Yeshe. You could find that one. > >Thanks, janpa... Actually, I'd be more interested in finding texts on some >of the extraordinary practices... not so easy to find... > >Love, >Dharma > i ordered a few days ago (but haven't received yet) "The Bliss of Inner Fire: Heart Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa" by Lama Thubten Yeshe.....this book is supposed to focus mainly on the first of these 6 yogas....the practice of inner fire (tummo)...... Wisdom Publications is now online and can be ordered from online www.wisdompubs.org also i might mention "Readings on the Six Yogas of Naropa" Translated/edited by Glenn H Mullin (SnowLion), or his "Tsongkhapa's Six Yogas of Naropa" SnowLion can be ordered from online at www.snowlionpub.com these books are probably also available through www.amazon.com i've already deleted the mail that had the original reference to "extraordinary practices" so if this misses the mark as far as what is being retferred to as an extraordinary practice, sorry these places do have an extensive catalog so you may be able to find just what you're looking for Love, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 1999 Report Share Posted March 10, 1999 Hi Rick, >i ordered a few days ago (but haven't received yet) "The Bliss of Inner >Fire: Heart Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa" by Lama Thubten >Yeshe.....this >snip< > >i've already deleted the mail that had the original reference to >"extraordinary practices" so if this misses the mark as far as what is >being retferred to as an extraordinary practice, sorry No, these sound very good! Right on the mark... though I don't expect any of them to tell everything... some things are still transmitted only orally, as janpa said... but you often find hints in the writing. >these places do have an extensive catalog so you may be able to find just >what you're looking for Thanks so much! Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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