To Ashram or not to Ashram redux

February 21, 1999

In a message dated 2/21/99 10:42:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,

madhya writes:

<< We do not consider training for years as lawyers, doctors or

accountants to be anything but appropriate. But Americans often tend

to believe that achieving Nondual consciousness, or Self-realization,

is something for which no formal instruction or guidance is needed.

As an American speaking... You are probably right... it's a whole different

culture where spirituality reigned only on Sunday mornings in my world. All

the American's I have known my whole life didn't even know Self-Realization

existed, so how would they even know to begin formal instruction? (myself

included in these ignoramous's)

And maybe (just maybe) because of our busy and spiritually-ignorant lives, you

may see more spontaneous Kundalini awakenings here in the West, that bring

Self-realization without any formal instruction or guidance. (hey, something

has to get our attention when we show some interest).

Rather than a goal many see Realization as, I see it more as a beginning.

Mainly, because it was for me and others I have talked with.

I do see more and more people these days making their spiritual life, with or

without Realization, not just a part of their life, but inching their Self/God

into every part of their life. With myself, and many others I know, we have

an on-going, daily, moment to moment, instruction and internal and external

guidance going on in the field of life in the world (rather than in an ashram

setting). Every person we meet would be a Holy encounter... our work we do,

no matter the job, and the places we go, is our ministry (not to preach

hopefully (!), but to share and demonstrate). Every experience with another,

who is but ourself, leads us a little bit closer to home.

> I sincerely do not believe this to be the case. I am not saying, of

course, that this is impossible. Only 99% so. That is not going to

be a popular position, I realize.

I vote for you "Most Popular" on the List just to show you it

ain't so!

I admire your honesty with something that may have been on your mind.

Love,

xxxtg

* We are each of us angels with only one wing,

and we can only fly by embracing one another *

February 21, 1999

Satsanghers;

With love and respect for you all, I take the opportunity to offer

further remarks regarding my position of support for those who choose

to invest significant periods of time in their lives for training,

pilgrimage, and other spiritual endeavors.

I realize that I am being controversial, here, but I believe that

Americans have little patience for guru/teacher/ashram settings and

relationships that are so fundamental to all Buddhist traditions and

most Hindu traditions as well. I believe that certain qualities of

the Western mind-set may inhibit Westerners from coming to perceive

the variety of blessings that one can receive from pursuing prolonged

periods of spiritual training.

It may also be that many of us who participate in these lists--not

all, of course--but many, possess a fairly independent world-view.

This is not a criticism, so please do not mistake my meaning, here.

I am only saying that asking list-participators for advice regarding

the matter of organized spiritual community and training may yield a

somewhat lopsided consensus regarding this issue.

We do not consider training for years as lawyers, doctors or

accountants to be anything but appropriate. But Americans often tend

to believe that achieving Nondual consciousness, or Self-realization,

is something for which no formal instruction or guidance is needed.

I sincerely do not believe this to be the case. I am not saying, of

course, that this is impossible. Only 99% so. That is not going to

be a popular position, I realize.

Anyway, I am very interested in your collective feelings regarding this matter.

Madhya

February 22, 1999

> madhya nandi <madhya

>

> Satsanghers;

>

> With love and respect for you all, I take the opportunity to offer

> further remarks regarding my position of support for those who choose

> to invest significant periods of time in their lives for training,

> pilgrimage, and other spiritual endeavors.

>

> I realize that I am being controversial, here, but I believe that

> Americans have little patience for guru/teacher/ashram settings and

> relationships that are so fundamental to all Buddhist traditions and

> most Hindu traditions as well. I believe that certain qualities of

> the Western mind-set may inhibit Westerners from coming to perceive

> the variety of blessings that one can receive from pursuing prolonged

> periods of spiritual training.

>

> It may also be that many of us who participate in these lists--not

> all, of course--but many, possess a fairly independent world-view.

> This is not a criticism, so please do not mistake my meaning, here.

> I am only saying that asking list-participators for advice regarding

> the matter of organized spiritual community and training may yield a

> somewhat lopsided consensus regarding this issue.

>

> We do not consider training for years as lawyers, doctors or

> accountants to be anything but appropriate. But Americans often tend

> to believe that achieving Nondual consciousness, or Self-realization,

> is something for which no formal instruction or guidance is needed.

> I sincerely do not believe this to be the case. I am not saying, of

> course, that this is impossible. Only 99% so. That is not going to

> be a popular position, I realize.

>

> Anyway, I am very interested in your collective feelings

> regarding this matter.

>

> Madhya

There is more to it than one might think; read the copied article at the

end; it is just one of the sad examples one regularly finds in NG's. The

result is that one is rather skeptical concerning gurus. Another point is,

what is the reason that what should be most natural, +knowing who you are+,

would require any effort at all - the comparison with academic degrees is

highly suggestive as Self-realization doesn't depend on literacy or

scholarship. If Self-realization would be dependent on anything, it wouldn't

be worthwhile. Western society is founded on individuality and materialism

and both are a hoax, .to be swallowed by every child, damaging its

spontaneity and suppressing or killing natural creativity. Parents having no

time to invest in their children give them money so the idea of buying quick

results is engraved early in life. These are a few reasons why what should

be effortless has become something of a difficult enterprise for those who

succumbed to the social and cultural stranglehold of their surroundings. As

soon as something has been defined to be difficult, it is open to the number

one Western activity: moneymaking. Read the offers about seminars,

workshops, satsangs etc. in magazines like Yoga Journal...

In retreat, one will hardly be or become aware of one's distorted views and

complexes like shame, guilt, fear etc.. When surrounded by woods, meadows

and spiritual friends Love / compassion is easy. If Love / compassion

remains when in the rush hour traffic jam on a foggy day, when at work and

at home everything goes wrong, is an other matter. How can one be sure to

have removed the influence of social and cultural conditioning unless

practicing in the midst of one's duties? In life one has to improvise and

sadhana won't be different. A little plant needs initial protection but when

it sees the sun it will grow in the right direction, so to remove initial

doubt, a short visit to a guru is advisable. When a relationship of

unconditional trust has been established, the Internet is ideal for further

contact. Sometimes destiny will provide an opportunity for those who know

what they want, to be in a spiritual hothouse or in favorable conditions. In

that case, one doesn't have a choice

Jan

============================================================================

===============

>From donhp Fri Feb 12 05:42:23 1999

Newsgroups: alt.meditation

Re: Guru or fraud ?

hooley <donhp

Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:42:23 -0800

Thank you Neetaku ....we see this same incredible sickness going on in the

Hare

Krishna movement with the CHILDREN ! Check out http://ccrgroup.com/voice/

H

NeetaKu wrote:

> We are a group of spiritual seekers who are greatly concerned about the

> insidious activities of a Hindu Guru in California.

>

> Eknath Easwaran, "chairman" of the Blue Mountain Center of Meditation is

not

> only a confirmed pedophile but has also captialized on the average

American's

> ignorance of both Hinduism and "Indian traditions"

>

> Easwaran left India in a hurry to escape judicially ordered child support

and

> legal penalties for biagmy by the Nagpur High Court. We have confirmed

this

> with a visit to the Morris College in Nagpur, India, where Easwaran taught

for

> several years. Easwaran came to the United States on a Fullbright

fellowship.

> Posted at the University of Minneapolis, his uncontrollable libido quickly

led

> to revocation of the fellowship - a fact which can authenticated by the

> Institute of International Educaton which adminsters the fellowship.

>

> A resourceful man, Easwaran then founded the Blue Mountain of Meditation

in

> Tomales, California. Shortly thereafter he sexually abused several of his

> female disciples including his step daughter (San Jose Mercury News, April

30,

> 1989).

>

> The facts that he is a bigmist and dead beat father in India, a child

molester

> in California, and one of the rare Fullbright fellows to have his

scholarship

> revoked can easily be verified. Many of his colleagues including his

supervisor

> at the Morris College -Dr V B Kolte, who later became president of Nagpur

> University, are still residents of Nagpur.

>

> Since Eknath Easwaran claims to be a "yogi" in the true Hindu tradition,

it

> would be educative to debate if in Hinduism's history, any Guru has

"renounced

> " two wives to marry a third time. Also does a Guru who molests his step

> daughter lay claim to divinity?

>

> In the last four years, in California itself there have been several

cases,

> notably against Swami Muktananda and Swami Rama, where disciples have been

> awarded generous compensations for sexual abuse.

>

> Most recently Superior Court judge Lawrence Stevens, in Redwood City,

> California awarded Anne Marie Berolucci 625,000 dollars as compensatory

> damages, and one million dollars in punitive damages, for "inappropriate

> sexual advances" by Swami Kriyananda of the Ananda Church of Self

Realization.

> It is pertinent to note that Berolucci is 34 while Easwaran's step

daughter was

> in her teens.

>

> Since Easwaran also runs a "spiritual school" for young children, there is

an

> urgent need to investigate his pedophile activities.

>

> We hope that his post generates a rational debate on the internet on the

> activites of Gurus who claim divine right to assault all that we value in

> American tradition, and sexually abuse unsuspecting children.

>

> Bruce Rottner

>

> Mark Goldstein

>

> Mary Conant

>

> Sunil Sethi

>

> Neeta Kumar

February 22, 1999

TeeGee--

Thanks for your wise and kind comments. They are much appreciated.

Madhya

February 22, 1999

JB--

Again, all due respect, but I just don't buy the 'no effort'

premise. I really feel that this is possibly a

misinterpretation--only my opinion--mind you. Not worth more than

that. I find nothing out of order regarding the idea of cultivating,

working for change, transformation, realization, etc. In my personal

view, sadhana, or spiritual practice is not effort--it is romance! I

meditate to commune with my Self. I may do constant mantra because I

love saying any of the many names of God so much that this is

fun--not work.

And, I'm sorry, but I believe that realization is a many-layered,

multi-faceted process that is quite complex and that deals with more

than just the 'ideal' of Self-realization, but the integration and

incorporation of positive spiritual/religious ideals into the

performance of daily life.

I feel that there is some spiritual oversimplification taking place here.

But please understand, that I appreciate your comments and this discussion.

Thank you!

Madhya

February 22, 1999

Jan--

I feel uncomfortable with your addendum. First of all, this is

hearsay--not that I know anything about the actual matter. But what

about what you have presented should encourage me to believe it? Or,

even take it seriously?

Also, Jan, come on, guilt by association?

Madhya

February 22, 1999

At 11:13 PM 2/21/99 -0800, you wrote:

>madhya nandi <madhya

>

>And, I'm sorry, but I believe that realization is a many-layered,

>multi-faceted process that is quite complex and that deals with more

>than just the 'ideal' of Self-realization, but the integration and

>incorporation of positive spiritual/religious ideals into the

>performance of daily life.

>

Perhaps... it is as complex/complicated... or as simple...

as each persona **believes** it to be.

( /\ ) Namaste,

sam

---------------

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/

February 22, 1999

> samuel <samuel

>

> At 11:13 PM 2/21/99 -0800, you wrote:

>>madhya nandi <madhya

>

>>

>>And, I'm sorry, but I believe that realization is a many-layered,

>>multi-faceted process that is quite complex and that deals with more

>>than just the 'ideal' of Self-realization, but the integration and

>>incorporation of positive spiritual/religious ideals into the

>>performance of daily life.

>>

>

> Perhaps... it is as complex/complicated... or as simple...

> as each persona **believes** it to be.

Sam, that is too glib for me, I'm afraid. It is a tautology. 'What

it is, is whatever one is inclined--on any given day--to feel that it

is. This reduces spiritual /religious ideals to the point of

nonsense. It relegates all discussion about Self-realization or

Enlightenment to hopeless subjectivity and relativism. We cannot

even talk about what 'it' is because either one is fated to either

oversimplify or overcomplicate--depending on how one feels at the

moment. And it still does nothing to account for the actual nature

of 'what it is' that that 'is' is. Life is really quite simple...in

a complicated way.

> Madhya

>

> ---------------

> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/

>

> ------

> To from this mailing list, or to change your subscription

> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at and

> select the Member Center link from the menu bar on the left.

February 22, 1999

madhya nandi wrote:

Gloria:

I say let spirit guide you, if it comes to you then you go with it. And

the doors open naturally to follow the path, when you have to try and

push and pool it is only a sign that it is not yet where you are, if on

the other hand the doors open then simply go with it. There is no right

or wrong. Just knowing what is right because it is coming from the soul

direction.

>

> madhya nandi <madhya

>

> Satsanghers;

>

> With love and respect for you all, I take the opportunity to offer

> further remarks regarding my position of support for those who choose

> to invest significant periods of time in their lives for training,

> pilgrimage, and other spiritual endeavors.

>

> I realize that I am being controversial, here, but I believe that

> Americans have little patience for guru/teacher/ashram settings and

> relationships that are so fundamental to all Buddhist traditions and

> most Hindu traditions as well. I believe that certain qualities of

> the Western mind-set may inhibit Westerners from coming to perceive

> the variety of blessings that one can receive from pursuing prolonged

> periods of spiritual training.

>

> It may also be that many of us who participate in these lists--not

> all, of course--but many, possess a fairly independent world-view.

> This is not a criticism, so please do not mistake my meaning, here.

> I am only saying that asking list-participators for advice regarding

> the matter of organized spiritual community and training may yield a

> somewhat lopsided consensus regarding this issue.

>

> We do not consider training for years as lawyers, doctors or

> accountants to be anything but appropriate. But Americans often tend

> to believe that achieving Nondual consciousness, or Self-realization,

> is something for which no formal instruction or guidance is needed.

> I sincerely do not believe this to be the case. I am not saying, of

> course, that this is impossible. Only 99% so. That is not going to

> be a popular position, I realize.

>

> Anyway, I am very interested in your collective feelings regarding this

matter.

>

> Madhya

>

> ------

> Come see our new web site!

--

Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.

Gloria Joy Greco

e-mail me at : lodpress and visit our homepages at:

http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/

&

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/

Hope you enjoy them!

February 22, 1999

First you call enlightenment a nondual state and it can be realized through

something that is more like a romance ? Moksha is not something to be

attained. It is there already and was never away. The first time one

recognizes one's real nature could be called enlightenment. Recognition

doesn't take effort. What could possibly be transformed? Certainly not Self.

As the false notion of an ego will start disappearing on recognizing one's

real nature, it is a waste of time trying to transform it With the proper

insight and faith one's practice becomes effortless as one knows and

experiences all seeming hindrances are but in one's mind and can be

overcome, analogous to a tree becoming stronger when having to bear a storm

now and then.

My experience is limited to those disciplines where one is neither to doer

of actions nor the enjoyer of its fruits. These types implicate surrender so

by definition one isn't making effort and this is carried over to one's

entire life, eliminating notions like "now I am working and now I am

meditating". Of course it brings friction but they can be met as "reality

checks".

Rosicrucians have a terminology that does a better job in avoiding

ambiguity. Enlightenment denotes becoming conscious of Kundalini (the

effects of prana), piercing the heart center is called attainment of the

holy grail and moksha is the resurrection or alchemical wedding. The process

leading thereto is transmutation (of base metals into gold by the

philosophers stone) and after the consummation of the alchemical wedding,

the process leading to absolute freedom is called transfiguration. This

terminology would avoid the problems with "false" gurus as mentioned in my

previous post altogether. About effort, they say that what works in worldly

life won't do in spiritual life; a fundamental change in attitude is

required. This is surrender.

BTW, in my combined practice of walking meditation, pranayama and mantra,

the mantra continued after the walk. Often, it was found the next day,

starting the practice, the mantra still was going on - it shifted from one

layer of thought to another. It is the intensity of practice that counts.

Jan

>

> madhya nandi [madhya]

> Monday, February 22, 1999 07:13

>

> Re: To Ashram or not to Ashram redux

>

> madhya nandi <madhya

>

> JB--

>

> Again, all due respect, but I just don't buy the 'no effort'

> premise. I really feel that this is possibly a

> misinterpretation--only my opinion--mind you. Not worth more than

> that. I find nothing out of order regarding the idea of cultivating,

> working for change, transformation, realization, etc. In my personal

> view, sadhana, or spiritual practice is not effort--it is romance! I

> meditate to commune with my Self. I may do constant mantra because I

> love saying any of the many names of God so much that this is

> fun--not work.

>

> And, I'm sorry, but I believe that realization is a many-layered,

> multi-faceted process that is quite complex and that deals with more

> than just the 'ideal' of Self-realization, but the integration and

> incorporation of positive spiritual/religious ideals into the

> performance of daily life.

>

> I feel that there is some spiritual oversimplification taking place here.

>

> But please understand, that I appreciate your comments and this

> discussion.

>

> Thank you!

>

> Madhya

>

> ------

> Explore a new interest; start a new hobby. Go to

>

February 22, 1999

> madhya nandi <madhya

>

> Jan--

>

> I feel uncomfortable with your addendum. First of all, this is

> hearsay--not that I know anything about the actual matter. But what

> about what you have presented should encourage me to believe it? Or,

> even take it seriously?

>

> Also, Jan, come on, guilt by association?

>

> Madhya

As I can remember such things getting through even to CNN international, it

doesn't seem a hoax to me. Evidently, you have never witnessed the existence

of victims. They don't only exist in the USA. As there is no ashram without

guru the issue is not without importance. Except when it concerns the asanas

of Hatha yoga, which can be taught by any trained teacher with the

appropriate diploma as it is just a skill. This reminds me of a quote I once

posted about it in a thread on the Patanjali Sutras.

About Hatha yoga, a few lines quoted from Purohit Swami:

"[...] I met many who practiced Hatha yoga as a stepping stone to raja yoga,

but the few who were mere Hatha yogis had great powers, strong healthy

bodies and immense vanity. So long as they were in the Hatha yoga samadhi,

their minds were at rest, but as soon as they came out, their mind revolted.

They were generally amenable to praise; and some more worldly than average

worldly men. That was the chief reason why I lost faith in Hatha yoga.

[...]These postures have been incorporated in the Raja yoga system and I

have not met a yogi who has not practiced one or to, especially siddhasana

or padmasana. In the earlier stages they practice a few others, to gain

physical fitness and immunity from disease. But during my travels in India,

to my horror and amazement, I found caricatures of these postures and it is

no wonder that when the tradition is being lost, people pin their faith in

books which give inaccurate or inadequate accounts. These caricaturing

postures do not harm those who practice them for physical fitness, every

posture for a minute or two, but they do incalculable harm to those who want

to keep a posture for three hours [...]"

These are comments on Hatha yoga (practitioners) in India, in the 1930's.

IMO, almost 70 years later, things haven't improved.

Jan

February 22, 1999

>samuel <samuel

>

>At 11:13 PM 2/21/99 -0800, you wrote:

>>madhya nandi <madhya

>

>>

>>And, I'm sorry, but I believe that realization is a many-layered,

>>multi-faceted process that is quite complex and that deals with more

>>than just the 'ideal' of Self-realization, but the integration and

>>incorporation of positive spiritual/religious ideals into the

>>performance of daily life.

>>

>

>Perhaps... it is as complex/complicated... or as simple...

>as each persona **believes** it to be.

>

>( /\ ) Namaste,

>

>sam

Dear Samuel,

As one who has seen fit to make this process a complicated

and lifelong endeavor <s>, I am finally at a space (perhaps

free of enough incumbrances?) to hear the simpleness that

you often allude to.

I "see" the extent that I have limited my unfolding by my beliefs.

Will you take me by the hand, so to speak, that I may also

see how simple and natural it is to simply be "here" now?

Namaste,

Melody

February 22, 1999

At 12:41 AM 2/22/99 -0800, you wrote:

>madhya nandi <madhya

>

>Sam, that is too glib for me, I'm afraid. It is a tautology. 'What

>it is, is whatever one is inclined--on any given day--to feel that it

>is. This reduces spiritual /religious ideals to the point of

>nonsense. It relegates all discussion about Self-realization or

>Enlightenment to hopeless subjectivity and relativism. We cannot

>even talk about what 'it' is because either one is fated to either

>oversimplify or overcomplicate--depending on how one feels at the

>moment. And it still does nothing to account for the actual nature

>of 'what it is' that that 'is' is. Life is really quite simple...in

>a complicated way.

>

I suppose it is 'glib' from some points of view,

however... it may be axiom... from some others.

Perhaps the last sentence could be rephrased to:

Life is really quite simple... or as complicated,

as the persona living it... *chooses* to make it.

( /\ )

sam

---------------

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/

February 22, 1999

At 11:29 AM 2/22/99 -0600, you wrote:

>"Melody Anderson" <Melody

>

>Dear Samuel,

>As one who has seen fit to make this process a complicated

>and lifelong endeavor <s>, I am finally at a space (perhaps

>free of enough incumbrances?) to hear the simpleness that

>you often allude to.

>

>I "see" the extent that I have limited my unfolding by my beliefs.

>

>Will you take me by the hand, so to speak, that I may also

>see how simple and natural it is to simply be "here" now?

>

>Namaste,

>Melody

Dear Melody,

Sandeep would be a much better choice to 'take you by the hand'.

All I can offer is this:

The common concept in most 'paths', including the 'pathless path' is...

surrender.

Unconditional surrender!

Sit down where you 'are' at this moment... and surrender... to what is.

The rest... will be history.

( /\ ) Namaste,

sam

---------------

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/

February 22, 1999

>>Dear Samuel,

>>As one who has seen fit to make this process a complicated

>>and lifelong endeavor <s>, I am finally at a space (perhaps

>>free of enough incumbrances?) to hear the simpleness that

>>you often allude to.

>>

>>I "see" the extent that I have limited my unfolding by my beliefs.

>>

>>Will you take me by the hand, so to speak, that I may also

>>see how simple and natural it is to simply be "here" now?

>>

>>Namaste,

>>Melody

>

>Dear Melody,

>

>Sandeep would be a much better choice to 'take you by the hand'.

(I'm chuckling at the thought.) <s>

>All I can offer is this:

>The common concept in most 'paths', including the 'pathless path'

is...surrender.

> Unconditional surrender!

>

>Sit down where you 'are' at this moment... and surrender... to what is.

>

>The rest... will be history.

>

Thanks, Samuel. That's just what I was looking for. :-)

Melody ( still chuckling)

February 22, 1999

>Satsanghers;

With love and respect for you all, I take the opportunity to offer

further remarks regarding my position of support for those who choose

to invest significant periods of time in their lives for training,

pilgrimage, and other spiritual endeavors.

>I realize that I am being controversial, here, but I believe that

Americans have little patience for guru/teacher/ashram settings and

relationships that are so fundamental to all Buddhist traditions and

most Hindu traditions as well. I believe that certain qualities of

the Western mind-set may inhibit Westerners from coming to perceive

the variety of blessings that one can receive from pursuing prolonged

periods of spiritual training.

>It may also be that many of us who participate in these lists--not

all, of course--but many, possess a fairly independent world-view.

This is not a criticism, so please do not mistake my meaning, here.

I am only saying that asking list-participators for advice regarding

the matter of organized spiritual community and training may yield a

somewhat lopsided consensus regarding this issue.

>We do not consider training for years as lawyers, doctors or

accountants to be anything but appropriate. But Americans often tend

to believe that achieving Nondual consciousness, or Self-realization,

is something for which no formal instruction or guidance is needed.

I sincerely do not believe this to be the case. I am not saying, of

course, that this is impossible. Only 99% so. That is not going to

be a popular position, I realize.

>Anyway, I am very interested in your collective feelings regarding this matter.

Madhya

Madhya,

I don't think an aversion toward formal training and guidance is the

issue for Westerners. I'll tell you what the issue, the only real issue,

is, but first let's consider: What is formal training?, and What is

guidance?

I imagine formal training as a course of study combining the theoretical

with the practical. In other words, study of scriptures and Masters,

along with practice of a formal meditation upon their essence; study of

nutrition along with the keeping of proper diet; study of movement and

exercise along with practice of that; the study of psychology along with

self-analysis.

Guidance is resort to one or more who would help see to it that

equanimity is maintained throughout this growing absorbtion of the

theoretical and this continued development of the practical.

All that is a lot. And I can see where it would ideally be done in an

Ashram or an ashramic community over a period of years, or over a

lifetime.

Those who are seeking to put together all the practical and theoretical

pieces on their own, can and have done it.

To my knowledge, neither Nisargadatta nor Ramana ever instructed their

visitors to start spiritual communities. For them it was enough if the

visitor committed to attending to the I AM, or to inquiring, "Who am

I?".

Conducting those inquiries sincerely, transforms one's life into a

spiritual community. Such an inquiry can bring the practical and

theoretical pieces together by attuning one to readings that are

worthwhile and practices and people that are genuine, and, as well,

serve as the point of focus that would assure equanimity.

They knew what they were talking about, Ramana and Nisargadatta.

Either way, the ashramic community or the 'solitary' inquiry (of course,

nothing is done in complete solitude; there is the Internet, for

example, and books and friends, and so on, which would accompany any

'solitary' walk), or some combination of the two, involves complete

dedication.

That dedication or commitment is the most important issue. That is the

missing piece and the only real issue: commitment; not the failure to

value formal spiritual training.

The more fundamental question to be asked then, in my opinion, is, Why

are Americans or Westerners not as committed to nondual realization as

they are to becoming doctors, lawyers, accountants?

For when one person demonstrates that commitment, the joy is so great

that who cares if the spiritual community or the 'solitary' approach is

taken? To me it is pointless and only academic. When one has the hunger,

drive, thirst to realize, is it more than academic to wonder why that

person remains independent as opposed to joining an ashram?

So how does one generate commitment? It is done, in my opinion, by

welcoming all who have any interest at all in realization, even if that

interest is 'against' realization; by fostering an individual's

slightest intuition of the nondual. It is done through acceptance of

anyone and everyone who has even an inkling of nondual intuition. It is

done by demonstrating that commitment is necessary, absolutely required.

It is done by creating an atmosphere in which it is realized that there

is nothing else in this life to do other than 'become' realized.

That is something to think about.

Jerry

_________________________________

http://welcome.to/nondualitysalon

February 22, 1999

This entire thread sort of touches a nerve with me. I have always

wanted to travel to India and find a Guru. Of course, the only problem

being I cannot afford the travel costs...

There are all sorts of people offering "training" in enlightenment,

all for a cost.

Being on one of the lower levels of income, it is hard to fathom the

comfort of people who can take lots of time off work to go somewhere

and develop themselves.

Being in a sort of spiritual backwater (Texas) one just does not have

much of a direct experience of meeting with gurus and sages.

My spiritual life begins where dreaming about idealized "spirituality"

ends. My sadhana has never been anything but my life itself. I

certainly would not claim to have "attained" anything. "Attaining

enlightenment" sounds like something I'd rather decline. It sounds

like making enlightenment into an object as opposed to other objects.

As to "effortless" that is a little tricky. When your attention is

absorbed by something, there is no effort involved in trying to

concentrate, because there is no resistance. Krishnamurti wrote about

this quite well. If you are passionately interested in something, and

not just feigning interest or going through the motions, then you are

learning in the true sense of the word, and it is effortless.

And that is the rub. If my attention is absorbed in making money or

following sports scores or getting laid, then that is what it's about

for me. That is where I am. And it's exactly the same energy

involved in more "spiritual" pursuits. It is a lot like falling in

love, as you wrote so well.

The various forms of Hindu spirituality are rather firmly embedded in

the culture and history of India, just as Zen Buddhism reflects

Japanese culture. This is not to say that they are of no value to

Westerners, but that the value is by no means absolute. It is the

message of one like Buddha or Ramana Maharshi that communicates across

cultural barriers and is universal in nature.

One great example of this is Nisargadatta: a married man and a

householder, not a monk -- he ate meat and chain-smoked and sold

tobacco for a living. Hardly the idealized image of an Indian holy

man. His prescription for sadhana seems to have been: fix your

attention on "I am" and let everything else take care of itself. This

sadhana is quite compatible with the workaday world in my experience.

At least I find no conflict in it. When other things demand

attention, then attend to them and gently come back to "I am", and all

is well.

I grow a little weary of the berating of Western culture. Sure, one

aspect of it is materialistic, but that is like condemning Indian

culture because of caste system abuses.

I am just suggesting that it is a mistake to idealize conditions for

spirituality. You have to live it and be it wherever you are.

Phil

______________________

Madhya Nandi wrote ...

<<

Again, all due respect, but I just don't buy the 'no effort' premise.

I really feel that this is possibly a

misinterpretation--only my opinion--mind you. Not worth more than

that. I find nothing out of order regarding the idea of cultivating,

working for change, transformation, realization, etc. In my personal

view, sadhana, or spiritual practice is not effort--it is romance! I

meditate to commune with my Self. I may do constant mantra because I

love saying any of the many names of God so much that this is fun--not

work.

>>

==

~~~~~~~~~~~~ Phil Burton ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~ philibuster_98 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~ http://www.austintx.net/pbek/1sthought.html ~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~ ICQ: 18587674 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

February 23, 1999

Dear Phil:

I can't say that this thread touches a nerve with me but I can relate to

wanting to go somewhere and just concentrate on 'spirituality'. What is of

note to me is that I do know people who have been able to travel to India,

be with 'great masters and teachers', when they come back they seem to know

little more than before, their lives are still waiting for them and they

appear to have no more ability to handle the complexities of their lives

than before they took 'trip to enlightenment'.

There was a time when I felt if only I could just go and join with a

spiritual community - I would quickly be able to find the answers, how much

closer I would be to the final moment of 'oneness'. Luckily, I had

responsibilities and little money so had to continue my sadhanna here in the

world. By continuing on my path in the midst of life I have found the

'ashram' to be within me, the answer to be within me and know the bliss of

those perfect moments not in the silence of a setting in an ashram but in

the midst of noisy, modern America. Then I think - Krshna did not speak to

Arjuna in an ashram but on a battlefield, Jesus I believe had his moment

alone in a desert, Moses on a mountain top, Yogananda in a room in his

father's house.

Linda

Phil Burton [philibuster_98]

Monday, February 22, 1999 9:27 PM

Re: To Ashram or not to Ashram redux

Phil Burton <philibuster_98