Kalkin714 0 Report post Posted March 26, 2006 Bhagavad-Gita 8.20,21: <big>".....beyond this unmanifested, there is another Unmanifested, the undying reality, which does not disolve although all beings dislove. This Indestructable and Unmanifested is the Supreme Goal: This is Brahman, this is the state of perfection from which there is no rebirth."</big> (As it is: Yet there is another unmanifest nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is. That which the Vedāntists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns — that is My supreme abode.)Not only does this identify the true nature of the Lord as an Unmanifest that is higher than the Nirguna or Saguna aspects of Brahman (that is the true unmanifest and personal God of Advaitins, not the impersonal Nirguna Brahman that non-Advaitins wrongly accuse us of worshiping), but it also says that beings dislove and don't come back once they reach that Unmanifest Supreme Brahman negating any ideal of "eternal atman fragments" doctrine that some schools preach. Jaya Govinda Gopala! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jahnava Nitai Das 2 Report post Posted March 26, 2006 Text 20 paras tasmat tu bhavo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktat sanatanah yah sa sarveshu bhuteshu nasyatsu na vinasyati SYNONYMS parah -- transcendental; tasmat -- to that; tu -- but; bhavah -- nature; anyah -- another; avyaktah -- unmanifest; avyaktat -- to the unmanifest; sanatanah -- eternal; yah sah -- that which; sarveshu -- all; bhuteshu -- manifestation; nasyatsu -- being annihilated; na -- never; vinasyati -- is annihilated. TRANSLATION "Yet there is another unmanifest nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." This verse says Bhagavan is unmanifested to the manifested world. Krishna has stated the same thing elsewhere in the Gita: avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah param bhavam ajananto mamavyayam anuttamam "Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." naham prakasah sarvasya yoga-maya-samavrtah mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yoga-maya]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." Text 21 avyakto 'kshara ity uktas tam ahuh paramam gatim yam prapya na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama SYNONYMS avyaktah -- unmanifested; aksharah -- infallible; iti -- thus; uktah -- is said; tam -- that; ahuh -- is known; paramam -- the ultimate; gatim -- destination; yam -- which; prapya -- gaining; na -- never; nivartante -- come back; tat -- that; dhama -- abode; paramam -- supreme; mama -- My. TRANSLATION "That which the Vedantists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns -- that is My supreme abode." As Prabhupada points out in his commentary: Vedic literatures (Katha Upanishad 1.3.11) state that there is nothing superior to the abode of the Supreme Godhead, and that that abode is the ultimate destination (purushan na param kincit sa kashtha parama gatih). The Katha Upanishad states that attaining the abode of the supreme person (purusha) is the supreme destination. Else where in the Vedas it is written: om tad visnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti surayah "The supreme abode which the Devas are constantly looking towards is Lord Vishnu." it also says that beings dislove and don't come back once they reach that Unmanifest Supreme Brahman negating any ideal of "eternal atman fragments" doctrine that some schools preach. Krishna states the following in the fifteenth chapter of the Gita: mamaivamsho jiva-loke jiva-bhutah sanatanah "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts." Krishna's use of the words sanatana (eternal) and amsha (seperated part) is clear, without beginning or end. Elsewhere He states: na tv evaham jatu nasam na tvam neme janadhipah na caiva na bhavisyamah sarve vayam atah param "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." Thus establishing the eternal individuality of the living entities as spirit souls. As far as some other truth higher than Krishna, it is denied throughout the Gita: mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya mayi sarvam idam protam sutre mani-gana iva mattah--beyond Myself; para-taram--superior; na--not; anyat kincit--anything else; asti--there is; dhananjaya--O conqueror of wealth; mayi--in Me; sarvam--all that be; idam--which we see; protam--strung; sutre--on a thread; mani-ganah--pearls; iva--likened. "O Arjuna, there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitah "I am the source of all existence. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." We need to analyze the Gita thoroughly and systematically, not just pick and choose one verse and make claims. Is it really possible that in your 4 minutes of writing your post on the internet you were able to figure out something that Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva, Nimbarka and Vishnu Swami couldn't figure out over thousands of years? Sure, it's possible. But it's highly unlikely any of us will figure out something new that they weren't able find. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jahnava Nitai Das 2 Report post Posted March 26, 2006 Other important concepts of the Gita: 1) Lord Krishna is the object of all the Vedas, Upanishads and Vedic Scriptures; and He is also the Paramatma in the heart of all living entities: sarvasya caham hridi sannivisto mattah smritir jnanam apohanam ca vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham "I am seated in everyone’s heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas." 2) Lord Krishna is beyond both the fallible and infallible living entities (even at the state of Mukti the soul does not become equal to Lord Krishna): uttamah purushas tv anyah paramatmety udahrtah yo loka-trayam avisya bibharty avyaya ishvarah "Besides these two (the fallible and infallible), there is the greatest living personality, the Supreme Soul, the imperishable Lord Himself, who has entered the three worlds and is maintaining them." yasmat ksharam atito ’ham aksharad api cottamah ato ’smi loke vede ca prathitah purushottamah "Because I am transcendental, beyond both the fallible and the infallible, and because I am the greatest, I am celebrated both in the world and in the Vedas as that Supreme Person." 3) One who knows Krishna as the Supreme Person (Purushottama) knows everything and nothing remains to be known: yo mam evam asammudho janati purushottamam sa sarva-vid bhajati mam sarva-bhavena bharata "Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead (purushottama), without doubting, is the knower of everything. He therefore engages himself in full devotional service to Me, O son of Bharata." 4) This knowlegde of Krishna's supreme personality is the most confidential part of Vedic scriptures. iti guhyatamam shastram idam uktam mayanagha etad buddhva buddhiman syat krita-krtyas ca bharata "This is the most confidential part of the Vedic scriptures, O sinless one, and it is disclosed now by Me. Whoever understands this will become wise, and his endeavors will know perfection." This is the conclusion of the 15th chapter of the Bhagavad Gita. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aashish108 0 Report post Posted March 27, 2006 kalkin714 has been defeated left, right & centre in this topic and also in that defending Lord Chaitanya thread i think it should be a time of sober reflection....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 27, 2006 kalkin714 has been defeated left, right & centre in this topic and also in that defending Lord Chaitanya thread Yes! And this is the secret man has been desperately searching for 1000s of years. Make a bunch of long posts which no one can read -- much less respond to -- and then say "you are defeated"! I like that. i think it should be a time of sober reflection....... Actually, I think it is a time for celebration. Should you not be opening a bottle of Dom Perignon to celebrate your victory? Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aashish108 0 Report post Posted March 27, 2006 Yes! And this is the secret man has been desperately searching for 1000s of years. Make a bunch of long posts which no one can read -- much less respond to -- and then say "you are defeated"! Your english grammer is not very good and am not understanding the first part of your sentence. if you are refering to that defending caitanya thread, your argument is outdated, you should read on after those posts as several intersting points were raised. I suppose those long posts were made by that other person for reference. Actually, I think it is a time for celebration. Cheers your opinion I, however, prefer to be neutral. You can't talk about something and run away from the replies so a celebration doesn't really make any sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
