Spiritual communism - foundation

[Guest guest]

We must know the present need of human society. And what is that need? Human society is no longer bounded by geographical limits to particular countries or communities. Human society is broader than in the Middle Ages, and the world tendency is toward one state or one human society. The ideals of spiritual communism, according to Srimad-Bhagavatam, are based more or less on the oneness of the entire human society, nay, of the entire energy of living beings. The need is felt by great thinkers to make this a successful ideology. Srimad-Bhagavatam will fill this need in human society. It begins, therefore, with the aphorism of Vedanta philosophy janmady asya yatah [sB 1.1.1] to establish the ideal of a common cause. - from Sria Prabhupada's preface to SB

[Guest guest]

 

SB 1.1.1: O my Lord, Sri Krishna, son of Vasudeva, O all-pervading Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto You. I meditate upon Lord Sri Krishna because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of the creation, sustenance and destruction of the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations, and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahmaji, the original living being. By Him even the great sages and demigods are placed into illusion, as one is bewildered by the illusory representations of water seen in fire, or land seen on water. Only because of Him do the material universes, temporarily manifested by the reactions of the three modes of nature, appear factual, although they are unreal. I therefore meditate upon Him, Lord Sri Krishna, who is eternally existent in the transcendental abode, which is forever free from the illusory representations of the material world. I meditate upon Him, for He is the Absolute Truth.

 

 

From the verse above, which Srila Prabhupada has laid down as the foundation to spiritual communism, we can see that acknowledgement of the Supremacy of God is the foundation for human society as well as for an individual human life.

 

While this obviously precludes atheists from leading it entails more than mere lip service to theism. Fanatics of all stripes are often quick to use God as a cover for all manner of evil and grossly materialistic deeds.

 

The Lord is praised as the imparter of knowledge to Lord Brahma and it is living within the scope of that knowledge that a proper human society must be built.

 

[Kulapavana 0]

"From the verse above, which Srila Prabhupada has laid down as the foundation to spiritual communism, we can see that acknowledgement of the Supremacy of God is the foundation for human society as well as for an individual human life."

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this can hardly be called a foundation. it is more or less just an idea. a very good idea, but that's about it...

 

it is easy to theorize and solve world problems on paper. our own devotee society has some very serious practical issues to solve before we can fix what's wrong with the world. when you look at the Vedic practical approach to governing, it was very pragmatic, and had nothing to do with communism - spiritual or material. The Iskcon idea of spiritual communism is 100% utopian, proven failure... just look at our farms...

 

so... before you waste too much time daydreaming... wake up and smell the compost pile... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Guest guest]

But I am sticking to foundation. Without the acknowledgment of the Supremecy of God there is no foundation to the consciousness that is human both for the individual and society.

 

Iskcon's failures and successes have nothing to do with me.

[Kulapavana 0]

if you ask anybody here in US they will tell you that their system is based on the acknowledgment of the Supremecy of God. SO WHAT? the devil is in the details...

[Guest guest]

Why assume anyone is talking about some fake thing? Just to assume a contrarian position?

[Kulapavana 0]

I'm not just being contrary because I have a bad attitude. I hate to see another generation of devotees waste their time trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

 

Brahmanas are hopelessly impractical, even when their intentions are good. That is why Vedic society was run by kshatriyas. And spiritual communism? Never existed, and never will exist here in the material world. Going along with such fairytales is a lot worse than lip service. Do not try to reinvent the wheel. Just use the wheels you have no to move towards Krishna.

[Guest guest]

Was Prabhupada a silly daydreamer? You don't understand the first concept is within one's own self. Everyone needs to accept the position of spiritual communist because that is the basic truth of it all. You say "to move on towards Krishna". That is good advice. First thing is to acknowledge His supremacy over all that be and give up the idea of separate ownership.

 

Rehashing atheist communism or unbridled capitalism will not solve anything. Nor arguing over George Bush or Bill Clinton vs. Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung.

 

Both such systems have the same fatal flaw of claiming ownership of Krishna's property and maintaining material desires hopes and dreams. There is your day dreaming.

 

I have no illusions that the world is going to run along the ideals of spiritual communism. The karmic force is too great the other way. I am expecting massive upheavels as the karmic debt comes due.

 

But some can be reached. In either case it our job to speak the Lord's version and let the effects fall where they may.

[Guest guest]

Most capitalistic economists agree that about a 5% unemployment rate is acceptable or even desireable as it allows for a rapid transfer of labor from one industry to another. This is deemed good for rapid progress.

 

This also what E.F. Schumacher calls people for economics vs. economics for people. His great book Small Is Beautiful, Economics As If People Mattered is a wonderful book. He was a practicing Buddhist as well as an economist and he writes from that understanding.

 

His point was work is an integral part of the human make up. As such work should be molded to fit humanity and not humans molded to fit the work as in factory work for example.

 

The idea fits Krishna conscious view of things in many ways. Basically it is the idea behind varna-ashrama and karma-yoga. We are meant to work according to our natures and what would repression accomplish anyway.

 

Take a brahmana and put him in a factory and what do you have? Or even to take a sudra out of the field with the sun and air and growing things and place him in a dark factory doing a rote task all day and what you have is a very dehumanizing situation.

 

Anybody see the movie Metropolis?

 

So if work is set up with the human in mind, full employment would be see as a worthwhile goal and not as a drag on progress.

 

Here is a snippit of a conversation with Srila Prabhupada from March 15, 1974:

 

Prabhupäda: What these communists can do? We can do better than them. ...Then it will be counteraction of communist movement: "Why you are sitting idly, no employment? Come on to the field! Take this plow! Take this bull. Go out working. Why you are sitting idly?" This is Krsna consciousness movement. Nobody should be allowed to sit down and sleep. They must find out some employment, either work as brähmaëa or as a kñatriya or as a vaiçya. Why there should be unemployment? The same example. Just like I am, this body is working. The leg is working, hand is working, brain is working, belly is working. Why there should be unemployment? You just stop this unemployment, you will see the whole world is peaceful. There is no complaint. And they'll very happily chant Hare Krsna. Hm? Nobody's working in this field. They're all drawn to the cities to work in the factory. Condemned civilization. That communist emblem, what is that?

 

Devotees: Hammer and sickle.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. That is good.

 

Indian: Yeah, good.

 

Prabhupäda: But no hammer. Only this... What is called?

 

Devotees: Sickle.

 

Prabhupäda: No hammer. That will be our emblem. Only sickle. Not hammer. The hammer has hammered the whole human civilization. So just make a counter-emblem. The communists will appreciate.

 

Devotee: Sickle and tilaka.

 

Prabhupäda: Eh?

 

Devotee: A sickle, and then a tilaka.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes, that is good idea. Guptajé? Come here.

 

YB

[Kulapavana 0]

I'm not at all saying Prabhupada was a silly daydreamer - God forbid! But he certainly was a dreamer and a visionary. It is up to us to understand his intent and apply his visions in the practical sense. In order to do that, we MUST separate fantasy from reality....

 

communism is a word that exists only in the context of SOCIETY and I believe that was what Srila Prabhupada had in mind when he introduced that concept (spiritual communism).

 

do not try to twist the meaning or intent of this word by claiming it is a concept valid on an individual level only, or applicable only on the level of consciousness. Krishna is really an AUTOCRAT therefore the concept of isavasyam (everything belongs to God) is incompatible with the concept of communism (everything belongs to the commune, or society). I understand the concept of isavasyam, but the concept of spiritual communism seems artificial and contradictory. perhaps it is just me.

 

SP would sometimes change the accepted meaning of a word, to make a point. Problem is, only his disciples find it justified or useful, and sometimes such word uses can lead to serious philosophical misunderstandings within the society of devotees.

 

his disciples tried to implement the ideas of spiritual communism in real life, and it was pretty much a total failure, just like the other communism. just because an idea sounds good and has a good intent, does not make it practical, successful or sustainable.

[Guest guest]

I said:

"Was Prabhupada a silly daydreamer? You don't understand the first concept is within one's own self. Everyone needs to accept the position of spiritual communist because that is the basic truth of it all. You say "to move on towards Krishna". That is good advice. First thing is to acknowledge His supremacy over all that be and give up the idea of separate ownership."

 

 

 

 

 

You said:"do not try to twist the meaning or intent of this word by claiming it is a concept valid on an individual level only, or applicable only on the level of consciousness.

[Kulapavana 0]

"You are twisting my words and building little strawmen to fight with. I did not say "ONLY on the level of consciousness". I said FIRST.

 

It is from the consciousness of the inner man that humanity is built. That understanding must be the foundation of a truly human society. Why are you disputing these most basic points?"

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perhaps we are dealing with poor choices of words and poorly defined concepts.

 

do you really think I do not understand the supremacy of Lord Krishna? give me a little credit, please...

 

you say: "give up the idea of separate ownership"

 

nice concept... but how do you put it to practice on a social level, eh?

 

so what do you do after you complete that "first" requirement?

 

it is all just talk. vague ideas, however nice. no practical solutions, no blueprint to follow... at least with varnashrama you have some basic structure. but varnasrama is not spiritual communism.

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

it is all just talk. vague ideas, however nice. no practical solutions, no blueprint to follow... at least with varnashrama you have some basic structure. but varnasrama is not spiritual communism.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada disagrees with you.

 

 

We must know the present need of human society. And what is that need? Human society is no longer bounded by geographical limits to particular countries or communities. Human society is broader than in the Middle Ages, and the world tendency is toward one state or one human society. The ideals of spiritual communism, according to Srimad-Bhagavatam, are based more or less on the oneness of the entire human society, nay, of the entire energy of living beings. The need is felt by great thinkers to make this a successful ideology. Srimad-Bhagavatam will fill this need in human society. It begins, therefore, with the aphorism of Vedanta philosophy janmady asya yatah [sB 1.1.1] to establish the ideal of a common cause. - from Sria Prabhupada's preface to SB

 

 

 

And...

 

 

"Our philosophy is that every living being is the son of the Supreme Being and whatever we see within our vision--either living beings on the land, on the water--everything belongs to the Supreme Being. Every living being has the right to enjoy the Supreme Fathers property. So everyone means not only the human beings, but also other living entities, those living in the sky,water, trees, plants, creepers ants, birds--all living beings, they are sons of the Supreme Being. That is the real communistic idea, perfectly enuciated in the Srimad Bhagavatam." letter Nov.18, 1975

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hunger problems are solved by full employment in activities that are in harmony with our acquired natures and in harmony with the Earth. This means an agrarian based social structure "under God".

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TRANSLATION SB 4.17.10-11

Dear King, just as a tree with a fire burning in the hollow of the trunk gradually dries up, we are drying up due to the fire of hunger in our stomachs. You are the protector of surrendered souls, and you have been appointed to give employment to us. Therefore we have all come to you for protection. You are not only a king, but the incarnation of God as well. Indeed, you are the king of all kings. You can give us all kinds of occupational engagements, for you are the master of our livelihood. Therefore, O king of all kings, please arrange to satisfy our hunger by the proper distribution of food grains. Please take care of us, lest we soon die for want of food.

 

PURPORT

It is the duty of the king to see that everyone in the social orders—brähmana, kñatriya, vaisya and südra—is fully employed in the state. ...