dilemma

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna!

I am sorry prabhus and matajis for posting this message up, but i thought that maybe i would get an objective view.

 

I am stuck in a situation where i dont know whether i am being tested or whether i am being tested on how strong my bhakti is.

 

I have recently come out of a very short term relationship with someone due to the fact that they dont follow the 4 regulative principles.

 

The test for me comes as to whether or not how good i am in trying to teach this person about Krishna and all his wonderful qualities (as i think that he is open to the possibility of getting to know Krishna) or that is is better for me to let go and possibly find a partner who is already Krishna Conscious?

 

[theist 1]

"The test for me comes as to whether or not how good i am in trying to teach this person about Krishna and all his wonderful qualities (as i think that he is open to the possibility of getting to know Krishna) or that is is better for me to let go and possibly find a partner who is already Krishna Conscious?"

 

If he wants Krsna, Krsna will arrange it. You must seek stronger association than yourself. Women often want to try and save their man. I think it may be the motherly instinct in them. Several have tried with me and it never worked. /images/graemlins/wink.gif The man just becomes resentfull that you want to improve him. He may fake it for awhile just to be with you but eventually he will rebel perhaps feeling emasculated. Afterall the man is the natural guru for the wife. Find a strong devotee that can help you advance and that you can be good friends with. The few enduring marriages I have seen in Krsna consciousness and without all had strong friendship as a base.

 

Good luck

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree theist, don't try to "save" the guy. You can preach, and if Krishna wants it to happen he will give the sakti to your words to make it happen. Remember the gita verse, we have the right only to do action, we have no control on the results thereof.

 

I also agree, it's always best to cling to equal or better association. We often make the mistake of thinking we are stronger than we really are, and we just end up sinking lower and lower in the quagmire. So better to err on the side of safety and find a partner suitable for bhajan life. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

Thanks a lot for the advice.. i think that u have a fair point and that such issues can be quite cloudy to deal with in the first instance.. but i also had the same thoughts at the back of my mind and it seems like i will make the right decision in finding a partner who will help me to develop more spiritually and help me with getting to know Krishna better!

 

many thanks!

Haribol!!

[theist 1]

I wish you well. Loving relationships are the most natural of all of lifes experiences. But in this world of flesh our natural spontaneous giving of the heart must be controled and tempered with intelligence.

 

I was hoping Babhru would add something to this thread as he has a long standing successful marriage in Krsna consciousness whereas I am just a frustrated bachlor. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Haribol

[stonehearted 0]

Because theist invited me to comment, I'll make a couple of observations that may or may not me helpful. I agree with the advice not to "preach to" this partner. Share your faith with him or her in whatever way may best resonate with their experience. If they have the right kind of sukriti in their background, they'll respond. If not, then at least you'll know.

 

As mystifying as it is to me, I've known devotees who have had apparently successful relationships with partners who were not as interested in real, experiential spiritual life. It seems to me, though, that generally we need to keep our priorities straight. My tendency would be to keep an eye for a partner who would more actively support my spiritual progress. However, if the partners love each other, differences in approaches to spiritual life may not cause serious friction. I have a friend here who has diksa from Bodhayan Maharaja, and whose wife is a leader in the Buddhist community (not local, Japanese, church-going Buddhists, but haole, meditating Buddhists). They have their own spaces in their home and, apparently, in their lives, to accommodate each other's faith.

 

I can't offer more than general observations because I know nothing about your relationship other than it's not a long-term, committed one.

[theist 1]

There are alot of people in similar situations as this guest poster. Maybe people could add their own perspectives, right choices and bad choices.

 

One thing I have missed as a bachlor is that at my all to common points of weakness a wife in the same practice could have strengthened me just on the strength of her own practice and I hers during her states of low inspiration. That would not really happen if they were of different paths.

 

I have noticed that alot of devotee men feel they have to live up to our image of the "vedic man". Always in charge with the woman in the background even if she is suppressed to maintain that position.

 

If I was a woman looking to marry in Krsna consciousness I would definetly want to avoid the overly controlling type. They often appear as the ones most prominent around the temple community.

 

But the problem is how do two people get together to see if they have the needed rapport to make a marriage?

 

 

[stonehearted 0]

theist: "I have noticed that alot of devotee men feel they have to live up to our image of the "vedic man". Always in charge with the woman in the background even if she is suppressed to maintain that position."

 

My experience is that it's their image of a "vedic manh" they're trying to project. Generally, it strikes me as so much hooey. Our marriages and our spiritual lives may work better if we're honest with ourselves and everyone else.

 

t: "But the problem is how do two people get together to see if they have the needed rapport to make a marriage?"

 

Well, I'm definitely not the guy to ask about that. I've been married for over 32 years, and before that I was a brahamachari for more than three years. This business is all a mystery to me.

[Guest guest]

respect for the wife and served like a Vaisnavai proper

the wife is Laxmi in the home

Lord Caitanya says that the home is not one wihout a wife

so why do men feel threatened giving up false sense of proprietorship over ones wife children etc.---false ego identification w/the body let the wife run household or in other words --matriarcal

[Guest guest]

time to take sannyas man ! get serious there is no mystery to any marriage that long you can only do so much in household life

 

[Guest guest]

like working 9-5 having kids ?

only if you can teach them Krsna consciousness

this aspect of family life is the barometer of success

in 35 years of marriage are you and your kids Krsna conscious ?

[stonehearted 0]

Guest: "like working 9-5 having kids?

only if you can teach them Krsna consciousness

this aspect of family life is the barometer of success

in 35 years of marriage are you and your kids Krsna conscious?"

 

Well, that depends a lot on what you mean by Krishna conscious. If you mean steeped in prema, probably not. If you mean engaging regularly in the practices of sadhana, yes, certainly, at least to different degrees. I have a rather firm sadhana and always have, built on a minimum of 16 rounds of japa. My wife, too. My daughters are both committed to Krishna consciousness; one of them worhsips her Deities and chants a fixed number of rounds every day, and the other has a sadhana a little less demanding. But we all keep the pursuit of Krishna consciousness central in our lives.

 

How about you? Are you Krishna conscious yet?

 

But yes, it's time for me to consider how to move to another phase of life.

[stonehearted 0]

"Guest": "time to take sannyas man ! get serious there is no mystery to any marriage that long you can only do so much in household life"

 

It's not clear what point you're trying to make, but I'd be interested in hearing what you know about such things. What's the nature of your experience with marriage and devotional service?

 

The mystery I referred to in my previous post was the mystery of meeting romantic partners. Marriage is much less a mystery to me than it was in the past, although some--even devotees--have averred that it's a mystery how a couple can stay together so long. As far as what you mean by being able to "only do so much in household life," you might want to make yourself clearer.

 

And if you're so hot to give advice, please let us know who you are. I'm not inclined to accept any advice from those with no identity at all.

[Vanguard 0]

time to take sannyas man ! get serious there is no mystery to any marriage that long you can only do so much in household life

 

In my experience, those who make comments like that are usually the first to get married (i.e. quickie marriage), all while giving away their saffron dhotis, or breaking their dandas

[stonehearted 0]

It may well be time for me to take sannyasa, or to at least make a plan, but it's not really the business of anyone who doesn't know me to snipe anonymously about it. Only someone who has no clue of the seriousness of such a commitment would suggest it so lightly.

[Guest guest]

Stonehearted prabhu please accept pranams we apologize for not being more clear "time to take sannyas man "-only if you are ready to leave grhasta ashram, many persons are not happy in family life and opt for renounced order others simply spark up new relationships to give it another crack at it if you will.

 

"no mystery to marriage that long"- we meant it takes committment, love for the Vaisnava family members that you have raised on Srila Prabhupadas instructions- sounds like you've done well and have been blessed having a family that takes Krsna consciousness seriously not whimsically, given the nonsense political climate at present amoung devotees.

 

re.vangards negative comments-of course we have seen persons leave the sannyas order under unfavourable conditions and influence of maya, but - instead why not use Srila Prabhupada or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta as examples of the success of those that take the sannyas ashram with the utmost of seriousness to encourage others when the time comes to leave family life ?

 

re. your success in family life, from your discription of your good wife and daughters committed sadhana- this is what we meant "there is only so much we can do in household life to prepare our children to make responsible choices in this life.

 

we have seven children the youngest was born on the last celebration of Srila Prabhupadas disappearence-- his name is Abhay

 

How bout me am I Krsna conscious yet ? with this many Jagai madhai qualities , never in a million lifes.The children my good wife has born us are my only hope to get to Godhead.

 

The consideraton the delicate nature of leaving Grhasta to take sannyas is as Srila Prabhupada demonstrated the insurance of Provisions , spiritual and material for family members that are left behind.

 

In so much any advice that any one gives,from the sounds of it you already have a handle on the realities of the situation-

we keep on chanting and serving until given notice otherwise,

right !

we hope this meets you well in health spirit, perspicacious in your Krsna conscious endeavors in life.....

begging to remain ever felicitate in the dust of the feet of genuine Vaisnavas...Hare Krsna Hare Rama

 

[theist 1]

Why did Bhaktivinode Thakur not take sannyasa?

[stonehearted 0]

But he did. He took babaji vesha, reportedly from Gaura-kishora.

[theist 1]

I never heard that before.

[Vanguard 0]

re.vangards negative comments-of course we have seen persons leave the sannyas order under unfavourable conditions and influence of maya, but - instead why not use Srila Prabhupada or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta as examples of the success of those that take the sannyas ashram with the utmost of seriousness to encourage others when the time comes to leave family life ?

 

Because every sanyasi and saffron clad brahmachari who has ever told me words to the effect of "time to take sannyas man", have since gotten married themselves. The steadiest, most devoted tyagis and acharyas encourage the sadhaka according to their path; not trying to derail that path to create some "sea of dandas" fantasy by "tyagis" who can't stand seeing anyone married.

 

Sri Bhaktivinode Thakur said the heart must be ready for renunciation. Instructing people to take sanyas as if that "instructor" is the telecourse jagad siksa guru for the greater internet population, is unsettling, and reminicient of a time not so long ago when being a "tyagi" meant nothing, between the many who freely took this commitment, and the many more who broke it in the same instance.

[stonehearted 0]

I apologize if I was rude. It's just that it's a very serious matter. I take the instruction very seriously when it comes from those who intend it seriously. I can tell time, and I know what my real business should be. Getting from here to there is the catch.

[Guest guest]

I have a tendency to get up in arms when the subject of sannyas-to take or not to take -comes up; there are those against and those for.

it is sensitive in topic for me considering like your self it is a VERT SERIOUS subject and totally personal,being between my worthless self and my Guru Maharaja and not to be made light of for it truely means full surrender and total humility at the feet of our Srila Prabhupada.

 

Ya so many of us married premeturely in cases or by choice of temple presidents, and very regretably the devorce rate is astronomical.

So I throw myself prostrate at the feet of mature Vaisnavas that have struggled through these years of uncertainty and stayed commited to the grhasta ashram.

 

I am one of fortunate husbands, the wife truely assists me otherwise I am hopelessly mired in the muck of illusion.

 

In my case due to nasty Karmic health(depends how you look at for me its a blessing in disquise)My good wife was preparing for me to leave home to spend the remainder of life chanting and fully dedicating what is left of life to serving our Srila Prabhupada

 

we were thinking I would leave this world before a chance to do really much more, we embraced and pretty much cried like babies most of the night.

 

Any way the rest is math we were completely surprised to give birth to this extremely loving and happy boy child.

So go go figure the auspicious chances of being born on Srila Prabhupada's disapearence day and certainly I'm too dull witted to fully realize the whole plan and picture that Lord Krsna and Srila Prabhupada have for me as an aspiring Vaisnavas- to have this good fortune to be able to live with a Vaisnava family who help me every day with my role as Pita and aspiring disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

 

We hope this meets you and your family most well in spirit health,perspicacious in your continued endeavors in Krsna conscious life...always begging to remain ever felicitate in the dust of the feet of genuine Vaisnavas.

Thank you for your honesty and sincerety in service to our Srila Prabhupada please forgive my forward and bold nature.

[stonehearted 0]

I agree that the subject of taking sannyasa is a very personal matter, to be discussed with one's guru(s) and, when there is one, one's family. I think it would be well for the society of devotees to see sannyasis who have come from long, successful marriages, rather than failed marriages or the death of wives. I'm not sure who the sannyasa candidates are in ISKCON these days. I recognize one or two names, but that's all.

 

Actually, at least two devotee leaders tried to prevent our marriage: her temple president, and one sankirtana leader/future-sannyasi-GBC-guru type. We're still together after more than 32 years.

[Guest guest]

Strikes me that the essence of sannyasa, which is renounciation, is always to be practiced. What changes after the formal entering the renounced order? Certainly it is set up to be a more concentrated lifestyle. But I think it may be difficult to properly make the best use of that important stage of life if we haven't prepared our minds properly leading up to that point.

 

For most it seems that a proper marriage in Krishna consciousness is just such a necessary preparatory step.

 

That considered would it be wise to enter the formal ashrama status of sannyasa if even from marriage the inner work is not yet done. Isn't this what is meant by sannyas being forbidden in this age?

 

 

[Guest guest]

some very salient points you have made clearly Prabhu, we have also discussed when the time comes whom to approach for the formal aspects of sannyasa.

 

there are the many considerations in mind for many older devotees that have children now leaving home or have done so already, hence a dilemma for our godbrothers that are over fifty and are apprehensive as to where to go what to do ...mid life crisis we hardly think so we can't stay home for ever ! when we have left family life we do as Srila Prabhupada did continue to tell others about Krsna consciousness-by example in the renounced order of life.

 

simply put there is great danger in prematurely entering the sannyasa ashram unless for certain we have been instructed to do so internally and confirmed.

 

one question that many older men we have discussed this issue is how do you put your name on a list to be recommended by the sannyas board that has fluctuated over the years with its sannyas members falling from that position of recommedation; and like yourself, we do not know many of the new faces and names, quite a changing paradigm.

 

it is a personal consideration that much of the historical data regarding other Vaisnavas and how they accepted or were recommended for sannyas is a mystically spiritual one and that there presently are very few living Acharya or fixed up Vaisnavas could do the needful today to assist the aging disciples of our Srila Prabhupada to be properly living by example entering sannyas ashram.

 

we have seen from practical example our poor godbrothers leaving the sannyas ashram for a myriad of reasons to a life of unimmaginable distress and suffering, re-entering married life,business,and other entirely distracting experiences.

 

regarding your suggestion of taking example from senior men coming from successful personal relationships and have entered sannyas life, this sagacious advice will well be a good percursor for the aspiring candidate empathic ability to help give others Krsna consciousness ...after all isn't this what our srila Prabhupada wanted,for all his disciples to give Krsna to every one ?

 

thank you (stonehearted) Prabhu for your candid and insightful replies.

 

we hope this meets you and you family well in spirit health, perspicacious in Krsna conscious endeavors this life....begging to remain ever felicitate in the dust of the feet of genuine Vaisnavas

 

ys.