Sri Ram or Sri Krishna

[Guest guest]

Jai SiyaRam !!

 

I have often heard from some respected Gurus and Vaishnavas

that Sri Ram and Sri Krishna both were the only two Purna-avatars of Sri Hari.

But it is often said that Sri Ram possesed only 12 Kalas (instead of 16) while Sri Krishna possesed all 16 Kalas. Is there any scriptural proof for this kind of statements ?

 

RadheyShyam...RadheyShyam...RadheyShyam...RadheyShyam...

SitaRam....SitaRam...SitaRam...SitaRam....SitaRam...SitaRam

 

Deepak

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

No Scriptural proof but one can be found in the Bhagavata,

"krsna tu bhagwan swayam", but there also nothing is said about Lord Ramchandra.

[Guest guest]

Lord Swaminarayan too has said that Krishna came with all his divine qualitites and was Pari Purna Avtaar. Beyond Purna as he was Himself with no degraded qualities.

[Guest guest]

Lord Ramchandra came with degraded qualities !!!

[Visitor 0]

yo, you lot should watch your tongue!

 

you should never compare avatars! it is wrong to degrad a deity by comparison! Everyone has their own way, if the worship of the resevoir of all pleasure, mariyada prushottama Sri Ram suits you then, then worship Him by all means without the doubt that He may be 'less' than someone else!

 

Worship without any doubts or fears, to your hearts content!

[Guest guest]

was just curious to know whether there is any scriptural support behind this popular believe that "only Sri Krishna is purna avatar....all other avatars are partial".

[gHari 0]

 

But Lord Krishna has one quality the others do not manifest. That is: the sweet original form of Syamasundara, the beloved of Srimati Radharani.

 

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<center><img src=http://canoeparts.ca/KINGDOM/Syamasundara.jpg></center>

 

[gHari 0]

 

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<img src=http://canoeparts.ca/KINGDOM/syama.jpg></center>

[gHari 0]

 

More detailed information about avataras is located in the two chapters beginning at http://vedabase.net/tlc/7/en

 

[gHari 0]

The authority, Srimad-Bhagavatam in verse 1.3.28, clearly establishes the supremacy of Sri Krsna over all other expansions and avataras:<blockquote><center>

ete cAMza-kalAH puMsaH

kRSNas tu bhagavAn svayam

indrAri-vyAkulaM lokaM

mRDayanti yuge yuge

</center>

ete--all these; ca--and; aMza--plenary portions; kalAH--portions of the plenary portions; puMsaH--of the Supreme; kRSNaH--Lord KRSNa; tu--but; bhagavAn--the Personality of Godhead; svayam--in person; indra-ari--the enemies of Indra; vyAkulam--disturbed; lokam--all the planets; mRDayanti--gives protection; yuge yuge--in different ages.

All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord SrI KRSNa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.

 

In this particular stanza Lord SrI KRSNa, the Personality of Godhead, is distinguished from other incarnations. He is counted amongst the avatAras (incarnations) because out of His causeless mercy the Lord descends from His transcendental abode. AvatAra means "one who descends." All the incarnations of the Lord, including the Lord Himself, descend on the different planets of the material world as also in different species of life to fulfill particular missions. Sometimes He comes Himself, and sometimes His different plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions, or His differentiated portions directly or indirectly empowered by Him, descend on this material world to execute certain specific functions. Originally the Lord is full of all opulences, all prowess, all fame, all beauty, all knowledge and all renunciation. When they are partly manifested through the plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions, it should be noted that certain manifestations of His different powers are required for those particular functions. When in the room small electric bulbs are displayed, it does not mean that the electric powerhouse is limited by the small bulbs. The same powerhouse can supply power to operate large-scale industrial dynamos with greater volts. Similarly, the incarnations of the Lord display limited powers because so much power is needed at that particular time.

 

For example, Lord ParazurAma and Lord NRsiMha displayed unusual opulence by killing the disobedient kSatriyas twenty-one times and killing the greatly powerful atheist HiraNyakazipu. HiraNyakazipu was so powerful that even the demigods in other planets would tremble simply by the unfavorable raising of his eyebrow. The demigods in the higher level of material existence many, many times excel the most well-to-do human beings, in duration of life, beauty, wealth, paraphernalia, and in all other respects. Still they were afraid of HiraNyakazipu. Thus we can simply imagine how powerful HiraNyakazipu was in this material world. But even HiraNyakazipu was cut into small pieces by the nails of Lord NRsiMha. This means that anyone materially powerful cannot stand the strength of the Lord's nails. Similarly, JAmadagnya displayed the Lord's power to kill all the disobedient kings powerfully situated in their respective states. The Lord's empowered incarnation NArada and plenary incarnation VarAha, as well as indirectly empowered Lord Buddha, created faith in the mass of people. The incarnations of RAma and Dhanvantari displayed His fame, and BalarAma, MohinI and VAmana exhibited His beauty. DattAtreya, Matsya, KumAra and Kapila exhibited His transcendental knowledge. Nara and NArAyaNa RSis exhibited His renunciation. So all the different incarnations of the Lord indirectly or directly manifested different features, but Lord KRSNa, the primeval Lord, exhibited the complete features of Godhead, and thus it is confirmed that He is the source of all other incarnations. And the most extraordinary feature exhibited by Lord SrI KRSNa was His internal energetic manifestation of His pastimes with the cowherd girls. His pastimes with the gopIs are all displays of transcendental existence, bliss and knowledge, although these are manifested apparently as sex love. The specific attraction of His pastimes with the gopIs should never be misunderstood. The BhAgavatam relates these transcendental pastimes in the Tenth Canto. And in order to reach the position to understand the transcendental nature of Lord KRSNa's pastimes with the gopIs, the BhAgavatam promotes the student gradually in nine other cantos.

 

According to SrIla JIva GosvAmI's statement, in accordance with authoritative sources, Lord KRSNa is the source of all other incarnations. It is not that Lord KRSNa has any source of incarnation. All the symptoms of the Supreme Truth in full are present in the person of Lord SrI KRSNa, and in the Bhagavad-gItA the Lord emphatically declares that there is no truth greater than or equal to Himself. In this stanza the word svayam is particularly mentioned to confirm that Lord KRSNa has no other source than Himself. Although in other places the incarnations are described as bhagavAn because of their specific functions, nowhere are they declared to be the Supreme Personality. In this stanza the word svayam signifies the supremacy as the summum bonum.

 

The summum bonum KRSNa is one without a second. He Himself has expanded Himself in various parts, portions and particles as svayaM-rUpa, svayam-prakAza, tad-ekAtmA, prAbhava, vaibhava, vilAsa, avatAra, Aveza, and jIvas, all provided with innumerable energies just suitable to the respective persons and personalities. Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum KRSNa to have sixty-four principal attributes. All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But SrI KRSNa is the possessor of the attributes cent percent. And His personal expansions such as svayam-prakAza, tad-ekAtmA up to the categories of the avatAras who are all viSNu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes. Lord Siva, who is neither avatAra nor Aveza nor in between them, possesses almost eighty-four percent of the attributes. But the jIvas, or the individual living beings in different statuses of life, possess up to the limit of seventy-eight percent of the attributes. In the conditioned state of material existence, the living being possesses these attributes in very minute quantity, varying in terms of the pious life of the living being. The most perfect of living beings is BrahmA, the supreme administrator of one universe. He possesses seventy-eight percent of the attributes in full. All other demigods have the same attributes in less quantity, whereas human beings possess the attributes in very minute quantity. The standard of perfection for a human being is to develop the attributes up to seventy-eight percent in full. The living being can never possess attributes like Siva, ViSNu or Lord KRSNa. A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Siva, ViSNu or KRSNa. He can become a BrahmA in due course. The godly living beings who are all residents of the planets in the spiritual sky are eternal associates of God in different spiritual planets called Hari-dhAma and Maheza-dhAma. The abode of Lord KRSNa above all spiritual planets is called KRSNaloka or Goloka VRndAvana, and the perfected living being, by developing seventy-eight percent of the above attributes in fullness, can enter the planet of KRSNaloka after leaving the present material body.

</blockquote>

[gHari 0]

The last four attributes possessed only by the original purusha, Bhagavan Sri Krsna in full are thus described in "The Nectar of Devotion", a summary study of the Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu:<blockquote>

Qualities of SrI KRSNa

 

Personal features can be divided into two: one feature is covered, and the other feature is manifested. When KRSNa is covered by different kinds of dress, His personal feature is covered. There is an example of His covered personal feature in SrImad-BhAgavatam in connection with His dvArakA-lIlA (His residence in DvArakA as its king). Sometimes Lord KRSNa began to play by dressing Himself like a woman. Seeing this form, Uddhava said, "How wonderful it is that this woman is attracting my ecstatic love exactly as Lord KRSNa does. I think she must be KRSNa covered by the dress of a woman!"

 

One devotee praised the bodily features of KRSNa when he saw the Lord in His manifested personal feature. He exclaimed, "How wonderful is the personal feature of Lord KRSNa! How His neck is just like a conchshell! His eyes are so beautiful, as though they themselves were encountering the beauty of a lotus flower. His body is just like the tamAla tree, very blackish. His head is protected with a canopy of hair. There are the marks of SrIvatsa on His chest, and He is holding His conchshell. By such beautiful bodily features, the enemy of the demon Madhu has appeared so pleasing that He can bestow upon me transcendental bliss simply by my seeing His transcendental qualities."

 

SrIla RUpa GosvAmI, after consulting various scriptures, has enumerated the transcendental qualities of the Lord as follows: (1) beautiful features of the entire body; (2) marked with all auspicious characteristics; (3) extremely pleasing; (4) effulgent; (5) strong; (6) ever youthful; (7) wonderful linguist; (8) truthful; (9) talks pleasingly; (10) fluent; (11) highly learned; (12) highly intelligent; (13) a genius; (14) artistic; (15) extremely clever; (16) expert; (17) grateful; (18) firmly determined; (19) an expert judge of time and circumstances; (20) sees and speaks on the authority of Vedas, or scriptures; (21) pure; (22) self-controlled; (23) steadfast; (24) forbearing; (25) forgiving; (26) grave; (27) self-satisfied; (28) possessing equilibrium; (29) magnanimous; (30) religious; (31) heroic; (32) compassionate; (33) respectful; (34) gentle; (35) liberal; (36) shy; (37) the protector of surrendered souls; (38) happy; (39) the well-wisher of devotees; (40) controlled by love; (41) all-auspicious; (42) most powerful; (43) all-famous; (44) popular; (45) partial to devotees; (46) very attractive to all women; (47) all-worshipable; (48) all-opulent; (49) all-honorable; (50) the supreme controller. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has all these fifty transcendental qualities in fullness as deep as the ocean. In other words, the extent of His qualities is inconceivable.

 

As parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the individual living entities can also possess all of these qualities in minute quantities, provided they become pure devotees of the Lord. In other words, all of the above transcendental qualities can be present in the devotees in minute quantity, whereas the qualities in fullness are always present in the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Besides these, there are other transcendental qualities which are described by Lord Siva to PArvatI in the Padma PurANa, and in the First Canto of SrImad-BhAgavatam in connection with a conversation between the deity of the earth and the King of religion, YamarAja. It is said therein, "Persons Who who are desirous of becoming great personalities must be decorated with the following qualities: truthfulness, cleanliness, mercy, perseverance, renunciation, peacefulness, simplicity, control of the senses, equilibrium of the mind, austerity, equality, forbearance, placidity, learning, knowledge, detachment, opulence, chivalry, influence, strength, memory, independence, tactfulness, luster, patience, kind-heartedness, ingenuity, gentility, mannerliness, determination, perfection in all knowledge, proper execution, possession of all objects of enjoyment, gravity, steadiness, faithfulness, fame, respectfulness and lack of false egotism." Persons who are desiring to become great souls cannot be without any of the above qualities, so we can know for certain that these qualities are found in Lord KRSNa, the supreme soul.

 

Besides all of the above-mentioned fifty qualities, Lord KRSNa possesses five more, which are sometimes partially manifested in the persons of Lord BrahmA or Lord Siva. These transcendental qualities are as follows: (51) changeless; (52) all-cognizant; (53) ever fresh; (54) sac-cid-Ananda (possessing an eternal blissful body); (55) possessing all mystic perfections.

 

KRSNa also possesses five other qualities, which are manifest in the body of NArAyaNa, and they are listed as follows. (56) He has inconceivable potency. (57) Uncountable universes generate from His body. (58) He is the original source of all incarnations. (59) He is the giver of salvation to the enemies whom He kills. (60) He is the attractor of liberated souls. All these transcendental qualities are manifest wonderfully in the personal feature of Lord KRSNa.

 

Besides these sixty transcendental qualities, KRSNa has four more, which are not manifest even in the NArAyaNa form of Godhead, what to speak of the demigods or living entities. They are as follows. (61) He is the performer of wonderful varieties of pastimes (especially His childhood pastimes). (62) He is surrounded by devotees endowed with wonderful love of Godhead. (63) He can attract all living entities all over the universes by playing on His flute. (64) He has a wonderful excellence of beauty which cannot be rivaled anywhere in the creation.

 

Adding to the list these four exceptional qualities of KRSNa, it is to be understood that the aggregate number of qualities of KRSNa is sixty-four. SrIla RUpa GosvAmI has attempted to give evidences from various scriptures about all sixty-four qualities present in the person of the Supreme Lord.

 

- - - - - -

 

61. Performer of Wonderful Activities

In the BRhad-vAmana PurANa, the Lord says, "Although I have many fascinating pastimes, whenever I think of the rAsa-lIlA, which I perform with the gopIs, I become eager to have it again."

 

One devotee has said, "I know about NArAyaNa, the husband of the goddess of fortune, and I also know about many other incarnations of the Lord. Certainly all the pastimes of such incarnations are exciting to my mind, but still the pastimes of the rAsa-lIlA performed by Lord KRSNa Himself are wonderfully increasing my transcendental pleasure."

 

 

62. KRSNa Is Surrounded by Loving Devotees

When we speak of KRSNa, KRSNa is not alone. "KRSNa" means His name, His qualities, His fame, His friends, His paraphernalia, His entourage--all of these are included. When we speak of a king, it is to be understood that he is surrounded by ministers, secretaries, military commanders and many other people. Similarly, KRSNa is not impersonal. In His VRndAvana lIlA especially, He is surrounded by the gopIs, the cowherd boys, His father, His mother and all the inhabitants of VRndAvana.

 

In the Tenth Canto, Thirty-first Chapter, verse 15, of SrImad-BhAgavatam, the gopIs lament, "My dear KRSNa, during the daytime when You go out into the forest of VRndAvana with Your cows, we consider one moment to be twelve years, and it is very difficult for us to pass the time. And again when You come back at the end of the day, by seeing Your beautiful face we are so much attracted that we are unable to stop looking upon You constantly. At these times, when there is occasional blinking of our eyelids, we condemn the creator, Lord BrahmA, as a dunce, because he does not know how to make perfect eyes!" In other words, the gopIs were disturbed by the blinking of their eyes, because for the moment that their eyes were closed they could not see KRSNa. This means that the gopIs' love for KRSNa was so great and ecstatic that they were disturbed by even His momentary absence. And when they saw KRSNa, they were also disturbed. This is a paradox.

 

One gopI, expressing herself to KRSNa, says, "When we meet You at night, we consider the duration of night to be very small. And why speak of only this night? Even if we had a night of BrahmA we would consider it a very short time!" We get an idea of BrahmA's day from the following statement of Bhagavad-gItA (8.17): "By human calculation, a thousand yuga cycles taken together is BrahmA's one day. And such also is the duration of his night." The gopIs said that even if they could have that duration of night, it would still not be sufficient for their meeting with KRSNa.

 

 

63. KRSNa's Attractive Flute

In the Tenth Canto, Thirty-fifth Chapter, verse 15, of SrImad-BhAgavatam, the gopIs tell mother YazodA, "When your son plays on His flute, Lord Siva, Lord BrahmA and Indra--although they are supposed to be the greatest learned scholars and personalities--all become bewildered. Although they are all very great personalities, by hearing the sound of KRSNa's flute they humbly bow down and become grave from studying the sound vibrated."

 

In his book Vidagdha-mAdhava, SrI RUpa GosvAmI thus describes the vibration of KRSNa's flute: "The sound vibration created by the flute of KRSNa wonderfully stopped Lord Siva from playing his DiNDima drum, and the same flute has caused great sages like the four KumAras to become disturbed in their meditation. It has caused Lord BrahmA, who was sitting on the lotus flower for the creative function, to become astonished. And Anantadeva, who was calmly holding all the planets on His hood, was moving in this way and that due to the transcendental vibration from KRSNa's flute, which penetrated through the covering of this universe and reached to the spiritual sky."

 

 

64. KRSNa's Exquisite Beauty

In the Third Canto, Second Chapter, verse 12, of SrImad-BhAgavatam, Uddhava tells Vidura, "My dear sir, KRSNa's form was most wonderful when He appeared on this planet and exhibited the potency of His internal energy. His wonderfully attractive form was present during His pastimes on this planet, and by His internal potency He exhibited His opulences, which are striking to everyone. His personal beauty was so great that there was no necessity for His wearing ornaments on His body. In fact, instead of the ornaments' beautifying KRSNa, KRSNa's beauty enhanced the ornaments."

 

Regarding the attractiveness of KRSNa's bodily beauty and the sound vibration of His flute, in the Tenth Canto, Twenty-ninth Chapter, verse 40, of SrImad-BhAgavatam, the gopIs address KRSNa as follows: "Although our attitude toward You resembles loving affairs with a paramour, we cannot but wonder at how no woman can maintain her chastity upon hearing the vibration from Your flute. And not only women, but even stronghearted men are subject to falling down from their position at the sound of Your flute. In fact, we have seen that in VRndAvana even the cows, the deer, the birds, the trees--everyone--has been enchanted by the sweet vibration of Your flute and the fascinating beauty of Your person."

 

In RUpa GosvAmI's Lalita-mAdhava, it is said, "One day KRSNa happened to see the shadow of His beautiful form reflected on the jeweled foreground. Upon seeing this bodily reflection, He expressed His feelings: ‘How wonderful it is that I have never seen such a beautiful form! Although it is My own form, still, like RAdhArANI, I am trying to embrace this form and enjoy celestial bliss.'" This statement shows how KRSNa and His shadow reflection are one and the same. There is no difference between KRSNa and His shadow reflection, nor between KRSNa and His picture. That is the transcendental position of KRSNa.

 

The above statements describe some of the wonderful reservoirs of pleasure within KRSNa, as well as the transcendental qualities of His personality. The transcendental qualities of KRSNa are compared to the ocean: no one can estimate the length and breadth of the ocean. But as one can understand the ocean's contents simply by testing one drop of it, so these statements will give us some understanding of KRSNa's transcendental position and qualities.

 

In the Tenth Canto, Fourteenth Chapter, verse 7, of SrImad-BhAgavatam, Lord BrahmA says, "My dear Lord, the inconceivable qualities, beauties and activities which You have revealed by Your presence on this planet cannot be calculated by any material measurement. If one even tries to imagine, ‘KRSNa may be like this,' that is also impossible. The day may come when the material scientist, after many, many births or after many, many years, will be able to estimate the atomic constitution of the whole world, or he may be able to count the atomic fragments that permeate the sky, or he may even give an estimate of all the atoms within the universe, but still he will never be able to count the transcendental qualities in Your reservoir of transcendental bliss."

</blockquote>

[Guest guest]

Brahma Samhita

 

&#299;&#347;varah&#803; paramah&#803; kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;ah&#803;

 

sac-cid-&#257;nanda-vigrahah&#803;

 

an&#257;dir &#257;dir govindah&#803;

 

sarva-k&#257;ran&#803;a-k&#257;ran&#803;am

 

SYNONYMS

 

&#299;&#347;varah&#803; — the controller; paramah&#803; — supreme; kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;ah&#803; — Lord Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a; sat — comprising eternal existence; cit — absolute knowledge; &#257;nanda — and absolute bliss; vigrahah&#803; — whose form; an&#257;dih&#803; — without beginning; &#257;dih&#803; — the origin; govindah&#803; — Lord Govinda; sarva-k&#257;ran&#803;a-k&#257;ran&#803;am — the cause of all causes.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.

 

PURPORT

 

Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a is the exalted Supreme entity having His eternal name, eternal form, eternal attribution and eternal pastimes. The very name "Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a" implies His love-attracting designation, expressing by His eternal nomenclature the acme of entity. His eternal beautiful heavenly blue-tinged body glowing with the intensity of ever-existing knowledge has a flute in both His hands. As His inconceivable spiritual energy is all-extending, still He maintains His all-charming medium size by His qualifying spiritual instrumentals. His all-accommodating supreme subjectivity is nicely manifested in His eternal form. The concentrated all-time presence, uncovered knowledge and inebriating felicity have their beauty in Him. The mundane manifestive portion of His own Self is known as all-pervading Param&#257;tm&#257;, &#298;&#347;vara (Superior Lord) or Vis&#803;n&#803;u (All-fostering). Hence it is evident that Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a is sole Supreme Godhead. His unrivaled or unique spiritual body of superexcellent charm is eternally unveiled with innumerable spiritual instrumentals (senses) and unreckonable attributes keeping their signifying location properly, adjusting at the same time by His inconceivable conciliative powers. This beautiful spiritual figure is identical with Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a and the spiritual entity of Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a is identical with His own figure.

 

The very intensely blended entity of eternal presence of felicitous cognition is the charming targeted holding or transcendental icon. It follows that the conception of the indistinguishable formless magnitude (Brahman) which is an indolent, lax, presentment of cognitive bliss, is merely a penumbra of intensely blended glow of the three concomitants, viz., the blissful, the substantive and the cognitive. This transcendental manifestive icon Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a in His original face is primordial background of magnitudinal infinite Brahman and of the all-pervasive oversoul. Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a as truly visioned in His variegated pastimes, such as owner of transcendental cows, chief of cowherds, consort of milk-maids, ruler of the terrestrial abode Gokula and object of worship by transcendental residents of Goloka beauties, is Govinda. He is the root cause of all causes who are the predominating and predominated agents of the universe. The glance of His projected fractional portion in the sacred originating water viz., the personal oversoul or Param&#257;tm&#257;, gives rise to a secondary potency — nature who creates this mundane universe. This oversoul's intermediate energy brings forth the individual souls analogously to the emanated rays of the sun.

 

[Visitor 0]

|| Ram ||

 

By all means praise a deity, but not by degrading others!

 

Hari Bol