doubts about hell

[Guest guest]

Many of the punishments described in 5th Canto of Bhagavatam seem disproportionate to the deed they are punishing. There are many examples, but here is one that happens to be at hand:

 

A person who in this life bears false witness or lies while transacting business or giving charity is severely punished after death by the agents of Yamaraja. Such a sinful man is taken to the top of a mountain eight hundred miles high and thrown headfirst into the hell known as Avacimat. This hell has no shelter and is made of strong stone resembling the waves of water. There is no water there, however, and thus it is called Avacimat [waterless]. Although the sinful man is repeatedly thrown from the mountain and his body broken to tiny pieces, he still does not die but continuously suffers chastisement.

 

All that for a lie in a business transaction? Even in one of Prabhupada's Gita purports he mentions that sometimes lying in business is unavoidable. So my understanding (so far) is that these statements may not be literal, as I have heard, and there may be mitigating factors, such as it being Kali-yuga.

 

Another doubt in this connection is regarding the generality of the statements. X does Y and gets Z.

 

SB 5.26.15: If a person deviates from the path of the Vedas in the absence of an emergency, the servants of Yamarāja put him into the hell called Asi-patravana, where they beat him with whips. When he runs hither and thither, fleeing from the extreme pain, on all sides he runs into palm trees with leaves like sharpened swords. Thus injured all over his body and fainting at every step, he cries out, "Oh, what shall I do now! How shall I be saved!" This is how one suffers who deviates from the accepted religious principles.

 

So this leads to the question of what is the fate of a jiva who has both pious and impious activities. Do they get an average, or do they have to visit hell and the heavenly planets? If they performed various types of sin, do they have to visit each hell? etc.

 

More importantly, how does the idea of seemingly disproportional punishments coexist with the idea of a merciful God? Someone is eating grains on ekadasi who has never heard of ekadasi, yet they are going to hell? That would not seem fair. So now that I have outlined my doubt I present the matter before the assembly of pandits and senior devotees here so that they may enlighten me. Hare Krsna.

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is not God punishing the people - they punish themselves. the Mahabharata says that truth is the highest and if you lie, you are punishing yourself very heavily.

VdK.

[theist 1]

 

It is not God punishing the people - they punish themselves. the Mahabharata says that truth is the highest and if you lie, you are punishing yourself very heavily.

VdK.

 

 

One of the most profound things a friend ever said to me was, "Do you want to know the truth? Then stop lying."

 

The back drop was I had obviously fallen from my attempt to remain celibate and was woman hunting as much as possible while trying to keep up the pretense of a strict follower. Apparently fooling no one but myself. That is also called making a fool of oneself.

 

Perhaps someone knows of a quote from Bhativinode about those descriptions of hell in the SB being described as such to save people with fear or something like that. His exact quote would be most timely here if you know it.

[krsna 3]

 

 

 

"Cry aloud, spare not, lift up your voice like a trumpet and show my people their transgressions and . . . their sins." Isa. 58:1

 

 

Lies: Index

 

"You want the truth. You can't handle the truth!", (from the film, "A Few Good Men")

 

"If you continue in my word, then you are my disciples . . . And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)

 

 

 

0. Lies: Index

 

1. How many of us tell lies?

 

"There is one way to find out if a man is honest--ask him. If he says yes, you know he is crooked." --Groucho Marx

 

 

2. How often do we lie to others?

 

"If you do not wish to be lied to, do not ask questions. If there were no questions, there would be no lies." --B. Traven

 

"Life is a system of half-truths and lies, of opportunistic, convenient evasion." --Langston Hughes

 

 

3. Who lies to whom?

 

Part 1: Media and Politicians

 

"How can you tell if a politician is lying? His lips are moving." --unknown

 

Part 2: Everyone else

 

"They say" is often a great liar. --Proverb

 

 

4. Why do we lie?

 

"Fear is not in the habit of speaking truth. When perfect sincerity is expected, perfect freedom must be allowed; nor has anyone who is apt to be angry when he hears the truth, any cause to wonder that he does not hear it." -Tacitus

 

"Falsehood is invariably the child of fear in one form or another." --Aleister Crowley

 

"The object is not truth but persuasion." --Thomas Macaulay

 

 

5. Different types of Lies.

 

Part 1: What is a Lie?

 

"A lie always needs a truth for a handle to it." --Henry Ward Beecher

 

Part 2: Different types of Lies

 

"If you wish to strengthen a lie, mix a little truth in with it." --Zohar

 

Part 3: Different types of Liars

 

"A train of thought is never false. The falsehood lies deep in the necessities of existence, in secret fears and half-formed ambitions, in the secret confidence combined with a secret mistrust of ourselves, in the love of hope and the dread of uncertain days." --Joseph Conrad

 

 

6. Lies by other names.

 

"You don't tell deliberate lies, but sometimes you have to be evasive." --Margaret Thatcher.

 

"That's not a lie, it's a terminological inexactitude. Also, a tactical misrepresentation." -- Alexander Haig

 

"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." - Abraham Lincoln.

 

 

7. A holiday celebrating liars and lying.

 

"The first of April is the day we remember what we are the other 364 days of the year."

--Mark Twain (Samuel Langhorne Clemens).

 

 

8. The most common lies.

 

Part 1: The most common lies.

 

"If a lie is repeated often enough all the dumb jackasses in the world not only get to believe it, they even swear by it." --Billy Boy Franklin

 

"Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." --Franklin Roosevelt

 

 

Part 2: The Biggest lies.

 

"The great masses of the people . . . will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one." --Adolph Hitler

 

 

9. Excuses given for lying.

 

"You shall know the truth and the Truth shall make you mad." . . . Aldous Huxley.

 

"A lie is an abomination unto the Lord, and a very present help in trouble." --Adlai Stevenson

 

 

10. Contradictions and hypocrisy about lying. We do it to others but resent having it done to us.

 

"Please don’t lie to me, unless you’re absolutely sure I’ll never find out the truth." . . . Ashleigh Brilliant

 

 

11. Teaching our children to lie.

 

"Never teach your child to be cunning or you may be certain you will be one of the very first victims of his shrewdness." --Josh Billings

 

 

12. "Religions" teach us to lie.

 

"Every one wishes to have truth on his side, but it is not every one that sincerely wishes to be on the side of truth." --Whately.

 

 

13. Society teaches us to lie.

 

"As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand." --Josh Billings.

 

"The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." --H.L. Mencken

 

 

14. Lying to ourselves

 

Part 1: We lie to ourselves and sometimes, we want others to lie to us.

 

"It takes two to speak truth - One to speak, and another to hear." --Henry David Thoreau.

 

"Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true." --Demosthenes

 

"All lies and jests, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." --Paul Simon

 

 

Part 2: The lying disease

 

"I do myself a greater injury in lying than I do him of whom I tell a lie." --Montaigne

 

 

Part 3: Artistic works of fiction. Why we want to hear lies.

Books, movies and TV: Why we love lies.

 

"Humankind cannot bear very much reality." --T.S. Eliot

 

"Why shouldn’t truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense." --Mark Twain

 

 

15. Why is lying wrong?

 

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truth without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions." --Thomas Jefferson

 

"Lying is like alcoholism. You are always recovering." -- Steven Soderbergh

 

"Lying is a hateful and accursed vice. We have no other tie upon one another, but our word. If we did but discover the horror and consequence of it, we should pursue it with fire and sword, and more justly than other crimes."--Montaigne

 

 

16. Does God lie? Does the Bible show lying to be acceptable?

 

Part 1 "I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth." (1 John 2:21).

 

Part 2 "Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds [your former way of life]; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:" (Col. 3:9-10).

 

 

 

17. The effects of lying to loved ones, to friends, to society, and to ourselves.

 

"The important thing is to stop lying to yourself. A man who lies to himself, and believes his own lies, becomes unable to recognize truth, either in himself or in anyone else, and he ends up losing respect for himself as well as for others. When he has no respect for anyone, he can no longer love and, in order to divert himself, having no love in him he yields to his impulses, indulges in the lowest forms of pleasure, and behaves in the end like an animal, in satisfying his vices. And it all comes from lying- lying to others and to yourself." --Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov.

 

"You know what it's like when you find out a friend is a liar? Whatever he says, after that, sounds false, however true it may be." --Jean Giraudoux

 

"A single lie destroys a whole reputation for integrity. "--Baltasar Gracian

 

 

18. Alternatives to lying. Will honesty work? Would full time, total honesty cause society to collapse?

 

"True friendship can afford true knowledge. It does not depend on darkness and ignorance." - Henry David Thoreau.

 

 

19. To tell the truth.

 

"Live truth instead of professing it." - Elbert Hubbard.

 

 

20. Where to get help.

 

"The greatest homage we can pay to truth, is to use it."--James Russell Lowell.

 

 

21. For further reading: Essays and Opinion Articles on Lying

 

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley.

 

 

22. The Lying Test: Am I a Liar?

 

"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain.

 

 

23. The Lying Continues

 

Space photos: reality or Photoshop?

 

 

[mahoney 0]

Why do you believe whatever is said in the Bhagavatham? It may or may not be thr truth. Then my friend EVERY person on this planet will be in hell.Maybe these laws were applicanle in that yuga to make people fall in line. Dont worry if ever there wasa hell it is this rotten planet called Earth.After

death a sinner comes right back to earth and suffers the pangs of birth again. So dont worry. Remember in kaliyug just chanting the Lords name is sufficient.

 

[Guest guest]

 

Dont worry if ever there wasa hell it is this rotten planet called Earth.After

death a sinner comes right back to earth and suffers the pangs of birth again.

 

 

Mahoney, whatever medicine it is that your shrink is giving you - ask him to double it. Thanks.

 

[Guest guest]

Here is the Bhaktivinoda quote from "The Bhagavata - Its Philosophy, Its Ethics, and Its Theology":

-------------

 

In the common-place books of the Hindu religion in which the rajo and tamo-guna have been described as the ways of religion, we have descriptions of a local heaven and a local hell; the Heaven as beautiful as anything on earth and

the Hell as ghastly as any picture of evil. Besides this Heaven we have many more places, where good souls are sent up in the way of promotion! There are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton

has described in his "Paradise Lost". These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy. The religion of the Bhagavata is free from such a poetry. Indeed, in some of the chapters we meet with descriptions of these hells and heavens, and accounts of curious tales, but we have been warned somewhere in the book, not to accept them as real facts, but as inventions to overawe the wicked and to improve the simple and the ignorant.

 

Swami Gaurangapada says:

 

"As per some statements of Seventh Goswami Shrila Saccidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Krishna Samhita and one or two other books, Thakura himself has explained it in the introduction to Krishna Samhita that thos statements should not be taken sirectly by the devotees. His stating that hells are imaginary was just a preaching strategy as per the time, place and situation to bring the English men and women and the indologists to the path of pure devotion somehow or the other.

 

In so many other places, he has confirmed the descriptions of the hellish planets in the 5th canto of the Bhagavatam and in so many places like Hari Nama Chintamani he has most vividly described the fearful situations one will face by committing the 10 Nama Aparadhas."

 

 

[Guest guest]

but then what to do with this?

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote in a letter to Krsna das (Nov. 7, 1972):

 

These things are not very important; we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations [in the Bhagavatam]. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. . . . So we are concerned with Krsna consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

[mahoney 0]

Guest,I suggest you stop reading story books meant for morons and start reading Upanishads, Vivekanandas and Aurobindos works or if you find that too taxing(for your one-celled brain)i suggest you read some comic books on Bhagavad Gita.

 

Please refrain from making silly accustions. Dont you know the Earth is a place where humans work out their "karma".

[theist 1]

"...take the essence..."

[mahoney 0]

Ok Mr guest. you must be prettyhigh on drugs to make stupid accusations .Go to this link http://www.krsnaconsciousness.org/Namamrta.htm which says

 

In Kali-yuga, simply by chanting the holy name one can attain the goal of life.

 

Stop playing with toys and fiddling with the internet and go pick up your lost brains. I hope your shrink helps you find it!

[Guest guest]

mahoney ji, you can listen to Vivekananda and Aravinda if you want, but i trust Prabhupada.

 

Although it is not in our experience, there is a milk ocean within this universe. Even the modern scientist accepts that there are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of planets hovering over our heads, and each of them has different kinds of climatic conditions. Srimad-Bhagavatam gives

much information which may not tally with our present experience. But as far as Indian sages are concerned, knowledge is received from the Vedic literatures, and the authorities accept without any hesitation that we should look through the pages of authentic books of knowledge

(sastra-caksurvat). (SB 2.7.13p)

[Guest guest]

<< Perhaps someone knows of a quote from Bhativinode about those descriptions of hell in the SB being described >>

 

Bhaktivinode Thakur said that the descriptions of hell were symbolic and hell itself was symbolic. Apparently, he said so in order to encourage those people to accept the Bhagavatam who would otherwise reject it after reading the descriptions of hell. Some of the descriptions were very graphic.

[Guest guest]

The gross universe with it's varieties of planetary systems, higher and lower planets where various types of living conditions are to be found are all manifestations of the amalgomated thoughts, desires and individual karmas of the those that are going to reside there.

 

In this sense we form our own hell by incorrect thinking feeling willing and acting.

 

Don't believe in hell? Take a walk through a war zone, or a slaughterhouse sometime. Or Northern Pakistan today. Or just look in the grass closely and watch one insect capture and eat alive another insect. Or in the wild where one animal has been overtaken by a pack of hyeneas who howl and feast in a frenzy on the beats body while the animal is still alive.

 

Hell is not hard to find.

 

What you won't find is any unjust punishment where someone spends eternity in some hellish place for cashing a bad check or stealing a candy bar.

[Guest guest]

I agree with all of your points.

 

I read a good quote once ... 'maybe this world is some other planet's hell'.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wow this sight has alot of speculation but it's atleast spiritual subject matter.

So it comes down to faith either in the scientist, teachers, politicians etc or Prabhupada and srimad bhagavatam etc, take your pick.

We live in kali yuga which is less than 25 percent and declining of religious principles followed, so what we think now is not servere in previous age's like satya yuga(100 percent religious principles followed) the every day event's of the present would seem ghastly, animalistic and unthinkable, so a society following 100 percent religious principles the hellish description given in S.B would seem in perspective.

No humans are not supposed to cheat one another in business, lie without reason, cheat on there spouse, take intoxication, kill living entities, abortion's, have illicit sex and the list goes on, it's for spiritual elevation and a deviation is punishable that's the law.

What ever were born into we think that's normal and anything else is strange, untrue, or improbable.

Be carefull not to take S.B lightly and improbable because of the contrast in present day life.

Srimad Bhagavatam comes from krishna it is not merely fiction or over exaggerated for fear purpose's, it's spoken as truth for benefit for the condition soul's to understand the prison house they are within and the rule's applicable.

It is said that whoever does not have faith in the revealed scripture's shall never find peace within this life or the next.

I prefer to qoute Srila Prabhupada because he understood Bhaktivinode Thakur much better than us and he has presented Krishna Conciousness in a way that we shall understand easier and of course the fact that it was a different type of english spoken then and mentality.

So it is a question of faith and Srimad Bhagavatam is "AS IT IS"

 

Jaya Srila Prabhupada

 

[Guest guest]

Dear 'Guest',

 

Whoever you are ... please understand that in a parampara, the views of all Acaryas are equally valid. I'm glad that you choose to follow Srila Prabhupada, as most on this site do. But to dismiss the opinions of other Acaryas isn't wise.

 

There was a reason Bhaktivinod Thakur called hell symbolic. It wasn't that he was trying to mislead people just as Sripad Sankaracarya wasn't trying to mislead people by preaching advaita. The bonafide Acarya preaches according to time & circumstance.

 

In order to get the western world to accept the Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhaktivinod Thakur said that hell may be considered as symbolic. Otherwise, it would have been very difficult for the western people who were addicted to every kind of materialistic propensity to accept a scripture that directly revealed the consequence of their life style.

[Guest guest]

 

In order to get the western world to accept the Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhaktivinod Thakur said that hell may be considered as symbolic. Otherwise, it would have been very difficult for the western people who were addicted to every kind of materialistic propensity to accept a scripture that directly revealed the consequence of their life style.

 

 

 

Bhaktivinode wasn't speaking to the West.

[Guest guest]

Dear Guest

 

who said i was dismissing any archrya, just simplified reference to understand the most recent archrya, that is all, thankyou, whoever you are and you can't tell me this topic has non speculative post's?

 

Most of us alway's speculate without even knowing it, but we'll never admit it because of pride or false ego that were alway's right.

 

 

[Guest guest]

to many chief's and not enough indian's

 

to many guru's and not enough disciples

 

AS IT IS

[Guest guest]

Are you aware of the difference between philosohical speculation and mental speculation?

 

Conclusions arrived at by only using the mind are limited that is true. However we are not robots meant to "just read and believe prabhu."

 

We are dynamic living beings who by nature wonder and question. Also the truth about something most often has many angles of perception. Difference does not always mean opposition.

[Guest guest]

<< Bhaktivinode wasn't speaking to the West >>

 

Then perhaps you can tell me who he was speaking to and why he called hell symbolic?

[Guest guest]

<< but we'll never admit it because of pride or false ego that were alway's right. >>

 

I cannot speak about others but in my case, I can agree 100%!

 

[Guest guest]

dont mean anything. What does 'not enough Indians' really mean?

 

<< to many guru's >>

 

Thats a good thing. The way this world is going, we need many more of those Gurus.

[Guest guest]

 

<< Bhaktivinode wasn't speaking to the West >>

 

Then perhaps you can tell me who he was speaking to and why he called hell symbolic?

 

 

Well since he no way of communicatring directly with the Western world at that time I would have to say he was speaking to his own countrymen.

 

Since you claimed he was speaking and writing for the west why don't you explain how & in and in what form he was doing that. He did send that one book on the teachings and precepts of Mahaprabhupada to a Canadian university. Anything else?