interesting Iskcon/Gaudiya Math meeting

[Sunandaji 0]

The following is an excerpt from a transcript of a conversation that took place on May 31, 2000, in the Beverly Hills home of one of ISKCON's original eleven GBC-elected gurus, Hrdayananda Maharaja. Another participant is Bhagavan dasa, who is one of the original GBCs and a former ISKCON guru.

 

Bhakti-Caru Maharaja is also a GBC and another one of those later elected by that body to act as guru. [The GBC (Governing Body Commission) is legally charged with the administration of ISKCON.] Also present was Svasa dasa, ISKCON Los Angeles temple president.

 

Bhagavan dasa: [speaking to Srila Narayana Maharaja] We like to fight a little bit; but all the time is not good, and everybody in this room has a lot of love for you and I believe you have a lot of love for them. And I think that's the thing that Prabhupada was very expert at; taking all of us who really didn't like each other very much and making us like each other, to some degree. My understanding is that you came to the West to help Prabhupada.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: To serve; not to help.

 

Bhagavan dasa: Yes, to serve. And ISKCON needs service and help. I understand that there has been a lot of pain because of the way the GBC has responded to things.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: I think they want to serve ISKCON, this movement, and according to their intelligence they are doing so. But we can think further how we can honor each other and fulfill the mission of Srila Swami Maharaja.

 

Bhagavan dasa: Is it your desire, if possible, to be an active part of ISKCON - to work with people like Bhakti Caru, Hrdayananda - [addressing all present] working together without necessarily putting Maharaja as the new ISKCON Acarya but working with.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: I want only to help you in all ways. I don't want to be Acarya. I don't want to be GBC. I don't want any position. I want to help with the core of my heart.

 

Bhagavan dasa: .sometimes I think they have a fear that Prabhupada becomes relativised.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: He is my siksa-guru; not less than my diksa-guru.

 

Bhagavan dasa: If Prabhupada knew that Narayana Maharaja was in town, he wouldn't want that Narayana Maharaja would be giving a talk somewhere else and him giving a talk somewhere else. There would be no question about that.

 

You would be sleeping in his quarters with him, telling jokes, having fun, giving massages, making each other laugh, and talking on how to promote things.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: That is what I want - that first we make a proposal to discuss how we can honor each other, how we can have no ban to meet each other. Then, I may go there, and they can come to me everywhere.

 

Hrdayananda dasa Maharaja: At the same time we feel that it is necessary that those who are senior in ISKCON should be recognized as actually representing Srila Prabhupada and having a special understanding of Srila Prabhupada. And, based on that special understanding, Srila Prabhupada asked some of us to represent him even in his physical absence. I bring this up because for us this is one of the important things that has to be acknowledged in our relationship - that there is some understanding that is relevant to the co-operative mission. Anyhow... I'll stop here.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: But you should also know that I have been serving him since 1946, when there was no League of Devotees and no ISKCON. Your Prabhupada was a householder at that time, and he was one of the establishing members of the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. He was one of the founders, and I have served him and associated with him since that time. I have experience of more than 54 years service to him. Moreover, I know that he is still alive and I want to follow him as my guru. I see no difference between us. Our bodies are different and our pronunciation of words is different, but we are in the same disciplic line of philosophy and mood.

 

Also, I was the priest of his sannyasa ceremony in 1959. So I consider that I am also his disciple. The GBC leaders should not think that only they have served him. I think that I have served more than anyone, from the core of my heart. I have so much regard for him. If anyone says that only he has served, that is very painful for me to hear. They should realize these things.

 

Bhakti Caru Maharaja: I understand.

 

Hrdayanda dasa Maharaja: Good. We are having a discussion. I think I would never say that you have not served Prabhupada. I would never say that, and I don't think anyone. I've never heard.

 

Bhakti Caru Maharaja: Narayana Maharaja, why don't you suggest what you would like ISKCON to.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: I want that you should sometimes invite me, and I will invite you. You should sometimes give me a chance to offer my puspanjali at the lotus feet of my siksa-guru, Srila Prabhupada.

 

Bhagavan dasa: Another proposal is that ISKCON temples are not manpower rich. They need manpower. There are temples that have hardly any pujaris.

 

There are temples that hardly have cooks. There are temples that hardly have people going out preaching. There are temple presidents that need manpower.

 

Narayana Maharaja is taking devotees who for some reason or other have lost their connection with ISKCON and he's given them some shelter and a home.

 

Maybe, sometimes the way you preach may not be familiar to everybody. I don't think that's really a big issue. I think the big issue is that the temples have no people. I think that the big issue is there are projects that Prabhupada gave his life for.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: I am ready to help. But we should honor each other and think that we are in the same family of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Whether someone is a kanistha-adhikari (a beginner in bhakti) or an uttama adhikari (a self-realized soul), we are all in the same family of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Sravasa dasa: If I could interject something? I don't think that Narayana Maharaja cannot come to the temple. He can come to the temple, but there are certain restrictions. There are certain restrictions the GBC have recommended for him coming to the temple; so I think we should focus more on that.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Anyone else can go, without restrictions.

 

Sravas dasa: Yes.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: If Mayavadis can go, if Hollywood Stars can go, and you are not inviting me, I don't mind. But if I go and offer pranama, and I come to serve, what harm is there?

 

 

Conclusion

According to sastra, pure devotees are truly self-effulgent, and that effulgence is not dependent on being accepted by ISKCON management. Still, for the benefit of all, why should Srila Narayana Maharaja not be welcomed and invited to preach in Srila Prabhupada's temples? His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada would want nothing less.

[Guest guest]

Yes very self effulgent

[Kulapavana 0]

as the result of this meeting?

[Guest guest]

did srila prabhupada allow his god brothers to speak in his temples while he was on the planet? (without srila prabhupada being with them during the lecture)

[theist 1]

He was imploring them to help him in the West. Unfortunately they were too busy. So Krsna apparently arranged it that way. My speculation is that He wanted that Srila Prabhupada to be that much more a standout for glorification, but of course that was not Srila Prabhupada's desire.

[theist 1]

Letter to: Tirtha Maharaja

--

New York

8 November, 1965

65-11-08

 

Pujaniya Srila Tirtha Maharaja,

Kindly accept respectful obeisances at your lotus feet. Since I have come to the United States of America I had several correspondence with Sripada Govinda Maharaja. While I was in Calcutta at that time as well as in our different exchange of letters there was some hint from Sripada Govinda Maharaja, I should work in cooperation with your holiness and in my last letter I have already expressed my readiness to cooperate with your holiness and I had to ask from Govinda Maharaja as to the basic principle of that cooperation. Before I took Sannyasa perhaps you will remember it that I proposed to join you if my publications were taken up. But some how or other it was not possible and we missed the chance.

Now here is a second chance and without undergoing a long series of correspondence with Govinda Maharaja, I am directly writing you about my intention. Srila Prabhupada had a strong desire to open our preaching centres in the Western countries and both Bon Maharaja and Goswami Maharaja were deputed for this purpose without any tangible result.

I have come to this country with the same purpose in view and as far as I see it here in America there is very good scope for preaching the cult of Lord Caitanya. Here the Ramakrishna Mission is there for the last forty years and I attended their two centres here and I found there is no appreciable gatherings. Vivekananda preached for Daridra Narayana seva and the practical Americans question the swamijis of Ramakrishna Mission why there are still so many Daridra Narayanas lying on the streets and foot paths in India. In America there is no such scene of Daridra Narayanas lying on the foot path or in other words there is no question of Daridra Narayana here because every one has ample to eat and there immense vacant places for their homes. I have not seen a single spot here which is not nicely decorated with good houses and nice roads. Actually they have built a properous country in this part of the world and so material prosperity is concerned they are happy in every respect. So naturally there is spiritual hankerings and because India is well known for her spiritual assets they more inclined to take something spiritual from the East. But unfortunately either the Ramakrishna Mission or the Yogis have not delivered the goods they want. I had a talk the other day with Swami Nikhilanand of the Ramakrishna Mission and he also opined that the Americans are just suitable for the Bhakti Yoga cult and that is also my opinion.

I am here and see here a good field for work but I am alone without men and money. To start a centre here we must have our own buildings. The Ramakrishna Mission or any other mission which are working here all have their own buildings. So if we want to start a centre here we must have also our own building. To have a own building means to pay at least Rs 500000/-five lacs or one hundred thousand dollars. And to furnish the house with up to date paraphernalia means another two lacs. If attempt is made this money can be had also. But I think for establishing Matha and temples here you may take the charge and I shall be able to make them self independent. There is difficulty of exchange and I think unless you have some special arrangement for starting a branch of Caitanya Math transfer of money will be difficult. But if you can do so with the help of the Bengal or Central Government, here is good chance to open immediately a centre in New York. I am negotiating with some brokers here who can give us a house and they have suggested like above. Without our own house it will not be possible to open our own centre. For me it will take long time but for you it is very easy. The Calcutta Marwaris are in your hand by the Grace of Srila Prabhupada. If you like you can immediately raise a fund of Rs 10,00,000/- ten lacs to open a centre in New Work. One centre started, I shall be able to start many others also. So here is a chance of cooperation between us and I shall be glad to know if you are ready for this cooperation. I came here to study the situation and I find it very nice and if you are also agreeable to cooperate with it will be all very nice by the will Srila Prabhupada. So I am writing you directly this letter to elicit your opinion. If you agree then take it for granted that I am one of the worker of the Sri Mayapur Caitanya Matha. I have no ambition for becoming the proprietor of any Matha or Mandir but I want working facilities. I am working day and night for my Bhagavatam publication and I need centres in the western countries. If I am successful to start a centre in New york, then my next attempt will be start one in California and Montreal where there are many Indians also. There is ample scope for working but unfortunately we have simply wasted time by quarreling with one another while the Ramakrishna Mission with misrepresentation have made their position all over the world. Although they are no so popular in these foreign countries they have made a great propaganda only and as a result of such propaganda they are very prosperous in India while the Gaudiya Math people are starving. We should now come to our senses. If possible join with our other godbrothers and let us make an effort combinedly to preach the cult of Gaura Hari in every cities and villages of the western countries.

If you agree to cooperate with me as I have suggested above, then I shall extend my Visa period. My present Visa period ends by the end of this November. But if I receive your confirmation immediately then I shall extend my Visa period otherwise I shall return to India. Immediately I want some good assistants to work with me. They must be educated and able to talk in English as also read Sanskrit nicely. For preaching here two languages English and Sanskrit will be very much appreciated. I think under your leadership every camp of our god brothers should supply a man good for this purpose and they must agree to work under my direction. If that is possible then you will see how our beloved Srila Prabhupada will be satisfied on all of us. I think we shall all forget now the past fratricidal war and now come forward for a good cause. If they are not agreeable then do it yourself and I am at your service. Please therefore consider this and let me know by wire if you are agreeable. Otherwise I shall not extend my visa period but I shall return to India without being able to do anything tangible at my first tour. Hope you will take this matter as very urgent and let me know your decision by immediate return of post or by wire to my above address and oblige. Hope you are all well and thanking you in anticipation.

Yours obediently.

[theist 1]

From the above letter we see Srila Prabhupada asking that his Godbrothers help him in opening Gaudiya Matha centers which he would head up under Gaudya Matha direction and supervision.

 

His vision was not one of big temples with him in control, rather it was preaching the glories of Gaura-Hari in every town and village.

 

But how much help came?

[theist 1]

Letter to: Tirtha Maharaja

--

New York

23 November, 1965

65-11-23

 

Pujaniya Sripada Tirtha Maharaja,

May it please your holiness. I am in due receipt of your letter of the 17th instant and although it is not very encouraging still as I am not a man to be disappointed, I take courage from your letter as you write to say that there is possibility to raise the fund but it will take some time.

Expecting your reply in the above spirit I had some correspondence with the broker firm and the latest reply which I have received from them is joined herewith please find.

``Dear Sir, In answer to your letter of November 16 regarding the property for sale on West 72nd Street. This is located at 143 West 72nd Street. It is 18.6 by 100.2. contains a store and basement both the same size and a mezzanine. The owner is asking $100,000 for the property with $20,000 cash and will make good terms on a first mortgage that they will take back. As I have the keys, you can call at me for an appointment to see the property. Yours very sincerely Sd/Louis Baun for Phillips, Wood Dolson, Inc.''

So I have seen the property and the whole space is twice as much as your Research Institute building on the road which is just in the central part of the city with all good facilities. Now if you decide to purchase the property, I can assure you that the building is just suitable for our purpose and it is almost on the same style as your Research institute. The basement can be used as cooking and dining department, the store as the lecture hall and mezzanine for installing the Sri Vigraha and personal apartment. The building is quite suitable and once started it will be possible to raise fund by lectures and membership fees etc by suitable arrangement. So the immediate investment is about $25,000 and I think this amount you can arrange immediately and just start a branch of your Sri Caitanya Math or designate the branch as New York Gaudiya Math. The idea is very nice to think of and it will be a nice reply to the local Ramakrishna Mission who indirectly denied to allow me lecturing in their hall. You will be glad to know that my lecturing propaganda is going on and so long I remain here it will go on without any hamper. Recently one lecture of mine is arranged in our Indian Government House (New India House) organized by the Tagore Society of New York who organize such meeting only for the most distinguished persons. The consul and other officers of the New India House are impressed with my book and practically the 2nd officer (consul) is arranging the meeting inviting all distinguished gentlemen both Indian and American with Tea Party. The copy of the invitation letter is also subjoined herewith. ``The Tagore Society of New York Inc. Cordially Invites You to a lecture ``GOD CONSCIOUSNESS'' by A. C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI Sunday, November 28,1965. Time: Lecture, 3:30 P.M. Tea, 4:30 P.M. Place: New India House, 3, East 64th Street.

A widely respected Scholar and religious leader in India Swami Bhaktivedanta is briefly visiting New York. He has been engaged in the monumental endeavour of translating the sixty volume ``Srimad-Bhagavatam'' from Sanskrit into English. etc. So my lecturing or appointing one selling agent here for my books is already finished and if I remain such many lectures can be arranged in different parts of the country. One Dr. Choudhry is prepared to arrange for my lectures in San Francisco, Los Angeles etc but in my opinion such casual lectures may be a good personal advertisement but factually they do not make any permanent effects. But if there is a centre of activity for attracting people as you are doing in the Research Institute, the people can be trained up in the cult by regular association and hearing the transcendental sound of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Now we have got our English Srimad-Bhagavatam and there will be no difficulty to impress the audience with our Siddhantas and any intelligent man impressed with our Siddhantas will certainly change his life's mode of action. I think you may take up this suggestion very seriously and immediately start the centre and other things will automatically follow. And above all this is to satisfy the transcendental desire of Srila Prabhupada who desired very enthusiastically to start centres like that in the foreign countries. If you want to start the centre on rented house, the rent will not be less than three to four hundred dollars but the space will be one fourth of the house as we want to purchase. If you agree kindly confirm it by wire so that I can ask the broker to stay the house for some time for sale to other party. The Christian churches are not very favorable in the matter of increasing the Hindu religious institutions as it is natural to think with sectarian views. I hope you will accept this proposal and confirm it by wire on receipt this letter by the end of this month. Hope you are all well and with my humble obeisances for all the Vaisnavas.

I am your obediently,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.

[Guest guest]

"From the above letter we see Srila Prabhupada asking that his Godbrothers help him in opening Gaudiya Matha centers which he would head up under Gaudya Matha direction and supervision.

His vision was not one of big temples with him in control, rather it was preaching the glories of Gaura-Hari in every town and village.

But how much help came? "

 

he asked help even at the moment of his disappearance, now the help is coming (actually since 1978 incarnated in various exalted devotees and acharyas), why aren't we happy?

[theist 1]

That is a question better answered by someone in ISKCON. If the help is coming now what is the problem from the GM side? There are still a couple of billion preaching oppurtunities in the west. They could direct their energy there if they aren't already. But if they are obsessed with being accepted formally by ISKCON maybe they should stay home anyway.

 

We can see by Prabhupada's example where his focus was. The fallen souls. He pushed on irrespective of his Godbrothers help or lack of it. He showed how it can be done, relying on Krsna.

 

The field is wide open for any GM preacher. Maybe not for someone who just wants the organization that Prabhupada and his disciples built however.

 

Personally I hope many such great preachers emerge. From GM or ISKCON doesn't matter to me. The need for genuinely empowered souls by the thousands is there. But why should Krsna send more? How seriously do we want such association. Prabhupada is present in his books and we(including myself)largely ignore him.

 

To not have had such an opputunity made known to you and ignore Krsna is one thing, but to have such a chance and to consciously ignore it or treat it so causually and take it for granted is yet another and I believe far worse.

 

Anyway no one will be happy until we love Krsna.

[gHari 0]

I was most pleased that Bhagavan das is still taking an active interest in ISKCON. That is one to whose effulgence I can attest.

 

I think the issue is about whether it is sinful to let Srila Narayana Maharaja attend temples yet still not let him offer gopi lectures in the temples. Isn't that the real issue? While SBNM may be humble enough to bow silently, it still may be aparadha not to ask such a dignitary to address the assembly of devotees. Of course, I would speculate that such aparadha has to be oceans less than it currently is.

 

[stonehearted 0]

I'm not sure how many are obsessed with being accepted by ISKCON. Some would naturally like the opportunity to visit his temples and preach there, as any Gaudiya Vaishnava would. And quite a few do come to the West: B.B. Tirtha Maharaja, B.V. Puri Maharaja,B.S. Govinda Maharaja, B.B. Bodhayan Maharaja, and others. Bodhayan Maharaja was at the SF rathaytra and helped Tripurari Maharaja carry Srila Prabhupada's murti from the cart. He also recently visited ISKCON Honolulu, at the president's invitation, and Radhanath Maharaja invited him to New Vrindavan for the festival for the anniversary of Srila Prabhupada's sannyasa. (He was unable to attend NV because he was headed back to India).

 

It's we who need to get off our duffs and show the world how this movement is relevant. (Actually, that's addressed to myself. Anyone else who feels that shoe fits is welcome to share it.)

[theist 1]

None are obsessed. Students either I hope. Anyway what is the big deal. Yes it seems very rude and offensive. But what is new. Many of Prabhupada's own disciples can't go there either for no good reason. You can think of at least one prominent example from your own neighborhood. So it seems the only reasonable response is to wave it off and if the potency is there, start your own temple. It's not that Krsna lives only in ISKCON. Or the Gaudiya Matha for that matter. If they don't want you for whatever reason still the mission remains.

 

Why this constant tension, "they don't accept me.." or "We don't want them here..." At some point you just have to wish the other well and go your own way.

 

No offense to anyone meant.

[Guest guest]

Its strange how when prabhupad was pleading for his god brothers to come and take charge and help him as prabhupada had so much to handle so much going on, they denied him assistance but once he left the planet then we hear 'prabhupada wanted us to help' or 'I know better than you guys what he wanted as i served him longer' . A bit like when bhaktisidhanta maharaj left they all tryed to take charge. (a bit like some of prabhupada's diciples tryed to take over Iskcon but fortunately by krishnas grace it hasnt gone down the road that gaudiya matha went down even with all of iskcons fault at least its mantained it self and not broken up in to so many factions that cant co-operate) Im sure it will gather strength and by prabhupadas mercy it will get stronger.

 

I wish to cause no offence but thats the way i see it.

[Guest guest]

i'm an amataeur at ISKCON so i don't know squat, i.e. i mean no offense when i ask this question - who is Narayana Maharaja and Bhagavandas? What's the big deal here?

[Guest guest]

There are websites like VNN and Chakra where you will find such information quickly. Or you could use Google.

 

On the whole issue of Iskcon and other Vaishnava groups. Iskcon could take the high road: They have the temples, but in most cases they don't have the life.

 

Drop the "orthodoxy" of "accept Prabhupada's philosophy or leave." Anyway who is willing to honor Prabhupada as the bringer of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to the world should be allowed to do honor to Chaitanya in his temples. This does not have to include management responsibilities.

 

This could be extended outward to Gaudiya Math first and perhaps to all Gaudiya Vaishnavas in the long run. Iskcon is suffocating in the absence of new sources of spiritual vision.