Concerning Satsvarupa Maharaja GBC Executive Committee Statement

[Guest guest]

 

 

After 80 years, no one can be expected to live long. My life is almost ended. So you have to carry on, and these books will do everything.

 

(Room Conversation, 18/2/76)

In my books the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.

 

(Letter to Brahmarupa Dasa, 22/11/74)

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Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.

 

>>>SIR {boy}!<<<<<

 

 

Herewith is a very clear WHAT TO DO in that case ( guru is 'gonaaway ) OK or NOT !???

Now,science is a science has a method....Just just just use the words of the doktor/guru ( of the science ) AND READ TWO TIME A DAY BOOKS AND IT WIL BE OK.

 

sir is that a problem !?

 

that is the mystic way...thats all..obey the order...SCIENCE..TRANSCENDENTAL...capito>?? :-)

 

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SIR, for the second part of your endevour to understand transcendental knowledge ( surendering and obediance to gurus order ) I wil say the following things:

 

1. do not forget to read what He told to us. thus do not listen what others are saying ( chack yourself ! )

 

2.follow the order !

 

If you do like that no problem wil be on your path of devotional service to the lotus feet of sri caitanya..no!

 

senior devoty wil encouraged you to aal that what you asked in the letter above about 'live conversation with 'guru.

 

THATS WAY HE SETUP THE SYSTEM CALED RITTVIK----

Quote:

Are there gurus in the Ritvik model or just sannyasi?

 

 

The diksa (initiating) guru is Srila Prabhupada, everyone else is encouraged to gradually rise to the standard of instructing (siksa) gurus, including any sanyasis (if there are any left who have not deviated)

 

 

TNX FOR LISTENING, PRABHU

 

HARE KRISHNA

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

all these instructions were given to devotees regularly initiated according the gaudya vaishnava's tradition... so first initiation, then we can speak of books who keep alive the link with guru and previous acharias. Prabhupada gave a very big importance and solemnity to initiation

 

Herewith is a very clear WHAT TO DO in that case ( guru is 'gonaaway ) OK or NOT !???

..a devotee is a devotee because he serves a guru. Otherwise who is the object of devotion? So the guru has to be living and present.. not gonaaway

 

1. do not forget to read what He told to us

..

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tatt va-darsinah

 

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.

Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The

self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have

seen the truth.

 

"inquire from him submissively..." this him is present, you can see him, touch him, be chastized by this "him" . So if we are not realized we need a "him" that our senses can see. Exactly as prabhupada did, he went in usa personally, he did not send some boxes of books and remained in vrindaban

 

senior devoty wil encouraged you to aal that what you asked in the letter above about 'live conversation with 'guru.

..if senior devotees are still conditionated they cannot give complete help like an uttama adhikari can surely do. If they are uttama adhikaris.. they can give sisksa, harinama and diksa according to the tradition that prabhupada followed

 

THATS WAY HE SETUP THE SYSTEM CALED RITTVIK----

..for a limited time

 

The diksa (initiating) guru is Srila Prabhupada

..was...

 

everyone else is encouraged to gradually rise to the standard of instructing (siksa) gurus,

..the problem is the misconception of the term siksa guru.. many think that siksa guru is something less than diksa guru, that siksa guru can be an ordinary person. Siksa guru has to be perfect, uttama, pure... and if he's like that and i am still not initiated it is natural that he gives to me initiation

 

so if you admit siksa guru you are also admitting diksa guru.. both can directly give krsna, not that they reject the responsability to initiate and take shelter directly

 

this ritvik system gives to the ritvik the same prestige of the gurus... but without the responsability. If the ritvik leader falls he remain happily in his cheating position, where's the problem? he's not responsible, prabhupada is responsible..

 

hare...... krishNa

 

[Guest guest]

 

"Prabhupada would say things like this sometimes to give solace and encourage his disciples, this is not actually gaudiya tattva, it is not found in any sastra that the diksa or siksa guru remains in the material world until all of his disciples go to Vaikuntha or Goloka, this concievably could take millions of lifetimes, is Srila Prabhupada in some mysterious place instead of Goloka ?

 

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it is a mine opinion that the statements like this above are the root cause of the today Iskcon

 

 

 

 

you can quote all of the letters Prabhupada wrote to people all you want, It is a fact that Prabhupada dealt with neophytes in different ways, in 1969 when he wrote that letter the devotee couldn't understand the nature of Guru-Tattva, Can you ?

 

Read what I posted in Prabhupadas speech to the Gaudiya Math, that is what is called "Guru-Tattva", the concept is that there is only one Guru, One spiritual master, and that is the supreme lord.

 

So it is true that the spiritual master will remain in the material world till all of His disciples have left, BUT WHO IS THE SPIRITUAL MASTER ?

 

Krsna tells that HE is the Guru...Acaryam mam vijaniyan

 

From Sridhar Mahraja:

 

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.9.31) it is stated:

 

 

na hy ekasmad guror jnanam

su-sthiram syat su-puskalam

 

"One certainly cannot get complete knowledge from only one guru." In the highest stage of devotion, we must see not only one guru; we must see that guru is everywhere. In the land of Krsna, all are gurus; our transformation should be towards that. Everything in the spiritual world, the entire environment is our guru and we are servants. To enter into Vaikuntha, or Goloka, means that on all sides we must see guru and pay our respects. There is gradation of course, but all are guru .

 

There are different classes of guru. All Vaisnavas are considered gurus. If the spiritual master gives even one letter to the disciple, what is contained there is infinite. The knowledge given by the spiritual master is infinite. To know and understand it fully, however, different sources are necessary.

 

In the highest position one can read devotion to Krsna from everywhere. If we can attain the proper vision, then everything will supply me inspiration towards the performance of our duties. Whenever Mahaprabhu saw a forest, he saw it as Vrndavana. Whenever he saw a river, he saw the Yamuna. Whenever he saw a hill, he saw it as Govardhana hill. In that highest stage, wherever we cast our glance, it will remind us about our Lord. They will teach us, they will press us to engage ourselves in service to Krsna. That is the duty of guru. Wherever we cast our glance, whatever we come in contact with will only excite us "Do your duty." That is guru. Our guru is whoever gives us impetus for the service of Krsna, whoever helps us to look towards the center. So, because every atom in Vaikuntha and Goloka will encourage us towards our duty, they are all our gurus. Gurus will be very amply available when we can raise ourselves to a higher level.

 

 

Krsna tells us not to particularize in one point (acaryam mam vijaniyan ). There are so many siksa gurus in the line, and it is our good fortune to see more gurus, to come to the stage where we see gurus everywhere. Everywhere we shall try to draw the hints of the auspicious presence of Godhead. Krsna says, "One who can see me everywhere, and everything in me is never lost to Me, nor I to him (yo mam pasyati sarvatra, sarvam ca mayi pasyati ). We shall try to see Him in every medium. Then our position is safe. Not to see guru is a dangerous position. But if we can see guru everywhere, advising us to concentrate our energy towards the service of God, then we'll be safe. Of course, there is also a specific vision of guru, from whom I can get the maximum immediate help. But ultimately, Krsna says, "I am the acarya, "See Me in him."

 

 

 

 

 

 

"So anyone of you, you can become guru. It is not that I am an extraordinary man, an extraordinary god coming from some mysterious place. It is not that--it is very simple thing. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says yare dekha tare kaha krsna'-upadesa. So I request you follow the Caitanya Mahaprabhu's instruction that you also, you become a guru at your home." His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (03-17-04)

[Guest guest]

Devotee: Can you explain this concept of the absolute and relative position of the spiritual master?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: By the special will of Krsna, gurudeva is a delegated power. If we look closely within the spiritual master, we will see the delegation of Krsna, and accordingly, we should accept him in that way. The spiritual master is a devotee of Krsna, and at the same time, the inspiration of Krsna is within him. These are the two aspects of gurudeva. He has his aspect as a Vaisnava, and the inspired side of the Vaisnava is the guru. On a fast day like Ekadasi, he himself does not take any grains. He conducts himself as a Vaisnava, but his disciples offer grains to the picture of their guru on the altar. The disciples offer their spiritual master grains even on a fast day.

 

The disciple is concerned with the delegation of the Lord, the, guru's inner self, his inspired side. The inspired side of a Vaisnava is acarya, or, guru. The disciple marks only the special, inspired portion within the guru. He is more concerned with that part of his character. But gurudeva himself generally poses as a Vaisnava. So, his dealings towards his disciples and his dealings with other Vaisnavas will be different. This is acintya-bhedabheda, inconceivable unity in diversity.

 

There may be imitation, and there may be deviation. Both are possible. For ulterior motives, one may make a trade of guruship, just as in the case of the caste goswamis and the sahajiya imitationists. For some reason or other, one may pose as a guru, but the syrnptoms of a real guru are given in the scriptures: sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamagrayam: "A bona fide spiritual master must be conversant with the conclusions of the Vedic literature, fixed in realization of the Supreme Truth." (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.3.21).

 

Devotee: I don't know if this is correct, but I have heard it said that if the disciple is not spiritually successful, then the Guru may not return back to Godhead but may remain in this brahmanda (universe). He may not return to Krsna until the disciple can also go.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: If that is the case, then no Guru can ever return to Krsna at any time, because the continuation of the disciples will go on, so he will have no final result at any time in his life. But we cannot think that it is so. Sometimes he may be deputed himself, or others also may be deputed in that case. But the inner instruction and inner feeling and paraphernalia will be such that in any case the disciples will have no trouble. The officer may change, but the function will go on smoothly. So the Guru may return - the nama-guru, mantra-guru, sannyasa-guru - they are all Gurus, but we must recognize something similar in them, and hence we are given the statement about the ontological aspect of Guru: saksadd haritvena samasta- "I Myself appear as the Guru, who is simultaneously and inconceivably one with and different from Myself."

 

Krsna says, acaryam mam vijaniyat: "You should look there for Me. I am there. I am your Guru. With My different types of sakti, by the jivas' recruitment or by any other way, it is My function to take you up to a different place. In every case I am there. I am there in My Madhura-rasa sakti, or Sakhya-rasa sakti, My Vatsalya-rasa sakti, Dasya-rasa sakti, and in a general way also." Sometimes one may be recruited by the Ramanuja Sampradaya and then be converted to join the Krsna Sampradaya, the Gaudiya Sampradaya. That is also possible. We are to remember the eternal link.

 

Devotee: So if someone says that the Guru himself will personally come back - that is a mundane conception, a wrong conception?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Yes. The main thread is there, but it will not always appear in the same form. Although to the beginners one may say that "he will come back," ultimately we find that a disciple may even be transferred into another section, and then another section, so that he may gradually reach his destination. According to the unfolding of his inner necessity, the departmental change may occur. And he will always perceive his own Guru in newer and newer ways. At first sight he perceived his Guru to be of one type; then again with progress he will see the same Guru in another way, and thereafter another new characteristic will be found in his Gurudeva. The disciple will feel, "I could not detect so much in my Guru in the beginning. I saw him in one particular way, but now I find that he is something more, and then he is still more." In this way there is divine unfoldment.

 

In this world there is unfoldment, and in the higher domain also there is unfoldment. So avesa, the Guru is something like saktyavesa. There is the "chance contingency" saktyavesa who is deputed according to a particular time, place, or circumstance, and there is also the permanent saktyavesa; but in all cases, according to the necessity of the situation and by the divine dispensation of the Lord, the disciple will be connected, and he won't feel any distrust, it is the presence within. He will quench the thirst for the full progress of his heart, there will be divine unfoldment within his heart, and again he will begin a new thirst. And that new thirst will be quenched by whom? His Guru. It will be quenched by his Guru and he won't have any feeling of unscrupulousness or anything else. As his internal thirst is being satisfied, he will feel, "There is my Gurudeva."

Wherever there is unfoldment - gradual unfoldment and full attention given to that - then we can understand that from the upper side there is Guru. Gurudeva is my guide; and as I progress, guidance of different types will be necessary for me. Always new guidance, and my progress will take me into different places, and there a new type of guidance, a new life, will again come. In this way dynamic life is going on, and the main thread is there: raso vai sah - the pure rasa, pure ecstasy. And my inner heart will approve: "Yes, I want this. This is my fate; this is my fortune." Otherwise, if any madhyama-adhikari is appointed as Guru and has so many disciples, and if he is to come back again and again, then he could never enter into nitya-lila. But that cannot be so. In any case, whoever is connected with a genuine Guru will be satisfied, because the Lord is present there.

 

acaryam mam vijaniyan, navamanyeta karhicit

na martya buddhyasuyeta, sarva deva-mayo guruh

 

(Bha: 11.17.27)

 

Krsna says, "Don't try to limit the Acarya! You may have come up to a high position, but will you then think that you have surpassed that Acarya through whom you received your initial instruction in spiritual life? No, navamanyeta don't think that there is less in him, don't consider him to be of lower position. Navamanyeta - I Myself was there! I was there in your primary teacher, in your 'college-level' teacher, and I am there in your 'post-graduate professor' also! So navamanyeta, don't look at only the outside. I Myself am your guide in different forms. It is I."

 

Sarva deva-mayo guruh: the Acarya has got more spacious characteristics than that of the ordinary, general Vaisnava. Krsna says, "For you, I am there. And mayanukulena nabhasvateritam - I am backing so many Acaryas. There are so many Acaryas, and I am working through them. The Acaryas are like helmsmen in so many different boats, and I am the favorable wind helping those boats to make progress. So don't limit the Acarya - try to see him on the same level as Me."

[zackv 0]

Seems I'm constantly reminded why I left the movement!

 

In any case...Part II is up on Chakra. I just read it over and decided that I can't stand the topic anymore. I also thought the article saying that we shouldn't be discussing these "private matters" on online forums was unfortunate. In any case, everyone can check it out now. I'll still be on this forum but chances are I won't be yapping about guru-tattva anymore!

 

Peace.

[krsna 3]

To Be A Guru, Pt. II

by Zack V. Sunderman

 

Posted on chakra June 11, 2004

 

My article accomplished something I sincerely hoped it would: Discussion. I am without a doubt happy to see all the points and counter-points that have been posted since. Without discussion, no one can get anywhere, and I offer my respects to everyone who has voiced their opinion in this matter.

 

However, I feel I need to elaborate more, now. I feel that some people have, understandably, misunderstood some of my points. I originally wrote the article from a simplistic perspective - a solid addressing of one solid issue. Now, I think I should get a little bit more technical.

 

I think the most misunderstood of my points was "the guru is not human." By no stretch did I mean that the guru is "superhuman!" in the sense that Subhadra-mayi Mataji took it. The word "human" conjures up a number of different ideas, but an overview of what it means to be a "human" could be this: A human is an advanced being, with unparalleled capacity for intelligence, communication, and emotion, and unique abilities to reason and to question existence. A human is also connected to its primal biological instincts (whether or not you believe that this is due to evolution is a whole other conversation), and is sometimes imperfect in its sensory perceptions as well as its judgement. These concepts are all over Prabhupada's purports, and are clear to everyone - We are not perfect, we make mistakes, and we sometimes have difficulty rising above the base levels of existence.

 

So, if a human being desires to completely transcend material existence and understand the highest spiritual truths, and he chooses a guru to help him do this - what good does it do to take spiritual shelter of someone who is just like you? What is the purpose of guidance from someone who is possessed by the same shortcomings that you are? The only way a guru can be valid is for the guru to have already accomplished the task of transcendence.

 

nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai

ya yalibhir yuktir apekshaniya

tatrati-dakshyad ati-vallabhasya

vande guroh sri-charanaravindam

 

This verse from Sri Gurvastakam is sung every morning in ISKCON temples, and describes the guru as an expert in assisting the gopis in their arrangement of conjugal pastimes for Radha and Krishna.

 

"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of Uttama-Adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava, or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform, can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore, a disciple should be careful to accept an Uttama-Adhikari as a spiritual master."

 

Prabhupada states this in the Nectar Of Instruction, Chapter 5.

 

Every day, "Guru Vandana" by Narottam Das is sung as well. The translation is also recited. When reciting that translation, think about it: Do you have the ability to provide the things the guru is credited for in this song? Could you do these things, were you to have disciples? And if not, then why should you become the disciple of someone else who is still troubled by the same human problems that you are?

 

There is a reason I mentioned Rupa Goswami and other maha-bhagavat acharyas in my first article. I wanted to conjure up the image of their devotion and level of realization, next to the gurus of today who continue to fall down before our eyes, and make the reader see the difference. Yes, it is very rare to find someone in this day and age who is up to their standard; but that does not mean anyone should settle for anything less. Nor should one come up with a new definition of guru - I find it upsetting to hear:

 

"Another thing: 'A guru is meant to be someone who has risen far above the platform of the material world and is in no danger of going back.' Also intriguing, maybe because it's not my definition of guru.

 

I'm more leaning towards the idea that guru is one who is honest. especially truthful with himself."

 

One quality of the guru is certainly honesty, but this alone does not make one a qualified bestower of divine truth and prema-bhakti. It is without a doubt, unequivocally, entirely good and advisable to be honest with yourself about your own position. However, one who is in a diminished position, whether honest or not about it, does not fit the definition of what it means to be a guru. A guru is someone who is "in no danger of going back," and this level of understanding and devotion possessed by a guru is corroborated by every scripture devotees will read. We can't make our own definition to suit the problem.

 

And yes, the modern age is not an easy one, and there are all kinds of psychological factors present in the trouble many gurus face. Many of these gurus had twenty to thirty years of material conditioning under their belts, and then suddenly swore lifelong vows of sannyas. That does not work well on one's mind, and has the potential to create a number of serious problems - as it's quite easy to see, now. I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought all these gurus that have fallen down were fundamentally lesser or that they didn't suffer any problems from the way they applied their spirituality early on. However, it still stands that one should not expect someone who has not yet accomplished this task of transcendence to truly bring them to the esoteric truths for which they are hoping.

 

I'm glad that people saw in my original article that I think Satsvarupa Maharaj is an exemplary man, steadfast in honesty, sincere in his quest. I stand by this. I just worry when I see a society fabricating a new definition of spiritual master that will result in the dumbing-down and loss of understanding of the siddhanta of Chaitanya Vaishnavism.

 

[theist 1]

 

I also thought the article saying that we shouldn't be discussing these "private matters" on online forums was unfortunate.

 

 

I hear you Zack. I posted this

on its own thread but should have put it hear.

 

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Honest discussions?

06/10/04 01:24 PM Edit Reply

 

Found this this morning on Chakra.

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

Honest discussions

by Caitanya-candrodaya das

 

Posted June 10, 2004

 

It is nice to hear so much support and appreciation for Satsvarupa Maharaja honesty, openness and transparency from a whole section of devotees.

 

I would however point out that even with best intentions such discussions could be quite disturbing for both his disciples and Maharaja himself. He has a medical condition of debilitating migraines caused by anticipated anxiety and reading all the comments even favorable just adds stress!

 

 

--

 

 

 

So don't read them. He has lived a very public life, and taken a very public position placing himself as a medium between God and man. Naturaly when that has been exposed to have been overblown in such a way that is disruptive to the Vaisnava community on the whole people are going to express their thoughts and opinions on the matter.

 

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

Some communications posted were for his disciples. In this way they are private. So if letter say 'dear disciples' you really should not post it -- just out of respect for very intimate relationships he has with his disciples

 

 

--

 

 

 

Do you mean to say that with this "very intimate relationship he has with his disciples..." a personal and private mode of communication hasn't been established or maintained? Meaning a private e-mail list of somekind.

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

...and his example of honesty, not often found in the history of Vaisnavism or among contemporaries.

 

 

--

 

 

 

In the history of Vaisnavism???? Please pull your head out of the sand. He was outed.

 

 

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

 

[Editor's note: The letter from Satsvarupa Goswami and the GBC EC statements were forwarded to Chakra from "SDG's Communications Management Team" for posting in order to reach "Temple Leaders, Disciples, and Friends of His Holiness Satsvarupa das Goswami".]

 

 

--

 

 

[Guest guest]

haribol mataji

 

hare krishna

 

mirza

[Guest guest]

It is well, necessary uttama guru. But how you distinguish him? That who follows 4 principles it can be and kanistha guru. How you distinguish him? The person can follow 4 principles on MATERIAL motives. For example in GM is unique "acarya". They very much value position of the leader. Therefore they diligently "follow 4 principles" (whether also that is NOT KNOWN follow, GM it not ISKCON).

 

To be individual "leader" crushing all under itself, very simply. GM it is not difficult to support itself because they "acaryas", "Guru", who can always crush under itself all pupils. " You should trust blindly. " In it their "stability". But all of them kanistha adhikari. Because to behave so can only kanistha adhikari - not having qualification, they apply for a certain position. Anybody from them even SBT has not read never about fall soul. (!) Even if they follow 5 principles, all the same it kanistha.

 

If our guru kanistha adhikari. But you can have set siksa, in what a problem? Diksa guru - that who enters you. If you have come, that is set of other gurus.

 

The guru can remain in a material world yet will not take away all pupils. It does not prevent Him enter in nitya lila. Kanistha adhikari thinks at a material level - if he "remains" in a material world he cannot enter in nitya lila. To understand who kanistha and who uttama is possible LISTENING.

 

Srila Prabhupada eternally is both in a material world and on Goloka. He eternally preaches in a material world. Uttama adhikari it is not limited to anything.

 

If the guru kanistha adhikari but he DOES NOT DEFORM his guru - then- uttama operates. All is much easier. Uttama operates through kanistha adhikari as, uttama it is not limited. Srila Prabhupada writes - " simply repeat without distortions ". It is qualification. This not realized knowledge? No, it ALL THUS also is realized.

 

If who that follows 4 principles, but deforms or speculates, it spoils continuity. " If he "remains" in a material world he cannot enter in nitya lila. " Is is speculations, it is level speculations and material understanding. Well and whom you follow? You follow for kanistha adhikari.

 

If Satswarupa Maharaja does not deform, His guru operates. Satswarupa Maharaja can have personal imperfections, BUT IT is LESS IMPORTANT!

 

Another can follow 4 principles (whether but we at all do not know so it), but to speculate and expose himself as "acarya". What from two it is better?

 

If you have got in GM both you have already made zombi and you follow for kanistha adhikari and YOU EVEN do not HAVE CHOICE! You have idolized! - kanistha adhikari! /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Therefore Srila Prabhupada writes - " it is necessary to find the guru of a highest level ". As it to make. It is necessary to take sastra and studying her and following it, GRADUALLY the PERSON WILL FIND QUALIFICATION. On the other hand in siksa parampara - ISKCON, not so essentially who your guru because all parampara helps you. One guru does not solve anything. It is false idea, that one diksa guru solves all. Therefore in this sense GM, in itself, it is not functional in general.

[Guest guest]

<<It is well, necessary uttama guru. But how you distinguish him? That who follows 4 principles it can be and kanistha guru.>>

It is simple. By the mercy of Krishna one gets a guru and by the mercy of gURU ONE GETS kRISHNA. So if Krishna sends you Guru he will certainly make sure you recognise him. Krishna will never fail in his endeavour.We should simply and sincerely pray to Krishna for a guru.

As far as Satsvarupa is concerned, I do not think he can function properly as a guru since in his own words, he is always in great anxiety when he has to meet even with his god-brother friends ; what to speak of his disciples with all their problems?

[Guest guest]

Haribol, the word "anxiety" should be understood befroe comment. In the context of Krsna Consciousness, anxiety should go away, replaced by "Vaikuntha" which means freedom from anxiety.

 

Anxiety in medical terms, is a physiological condition, perhaps completely unrelated to the term used is shastra. These are many diseases, and the vaisnava should never be derided because he may have one of them. We do not criticize a devotee who has a broken arm, or cancer. What if a devotee should become affected with alzheimers or be afflicted with other similar brain eating diseases. Should such a persons consciousness be questioned because he is prone to disease. A devotee is eternal, do we criticize him when he dies.

 

No, samsara goes on, even when a devotee gives his life to Krsna. Disease hits, and anxiety disorder, post traumatic stress disorder, alzheimers, and other infirmities come. There are wonderful stories, particularly the story of the relationship between Isvara Puri and His Guru, Madhavendra Puri, that describe how to properly behave when a devotee becomes infirm, even unable to take care of himself.

 

In case one still has doubts, anxiety of one materialistically affected by lust, greed and envy may not have any physiological symptoms other that unsatiated desire. The medical anxiety disorder does have symptoms, headaches that makes one think that anurism is coming, skulls splitting open. Mediacl anxiety makes paralysis happen, unbearable heart pains, chronic pain in the joints, blurred vision, constand dizziness. When one is sick, he goes to the physician, and I do not fault satsvarupa for seeking relief from these physiological conditions. We are not these bodies, but then, these bodies are not ours, either, and the devotee, to an extent, is responsible for taking care of them to serve krsna better.

 

The medical care satsvarupa sought, is valid. The fact that he questioned such association he had with his psychologist shows how seriously he took his vows. It is natural to have affection with one giving medical care, in fact, those who know about the Stockholm Syndrome know that even prisoners of war have affection for their captors is their physical needs are met.

 

I could go on and on, but I just wantwed to re-emphasize that anxiety has different meanings that should not be confused. It is much better that we pray for the health of this person who has given his entire life to serve Srila Prabhupada, and if he has had a bit of apostacy, which he admits (but I dont agree with), we should pray that he gets over such things immediately so he can return to his duties in relationship to his gurus, peers, and disciples.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

it is well, necessary uttama guru. But how you distinguish him?

 

--very difficult.. but this difficulty has not to be the cause of lowering the standards: "because it is difficult to recognize the uttama adhikari, also kanistas are good"

 

For example in GM is unique "acarya". They very much value position of the leader

 

--in our tradition the acharya is an uttama adhikari.. so he has obviously value. Iskcon is despising leaders? i do not agree

 

GM it is not difficult to support itself because they "acaryas"

 

--if acharya is a real acharya, no difficulty... if there's no real acharya, you can build any parlamentary system, council, democracy and so on.. the result is a mess

 

If our guru kanistha adhikari. But you can have set siksa, in what a problem?

 

--find a place in scriptures where siksa guru can be less advanced than diksa guru. If we want to go to the "uttama" goal, krsna loka, our guru(s) have to be uttama adhikari. If we follow kanista adhikaris we cannot became more than kanista.. so we remain in material world

 

The guru can remain in a material world yet will not take away all pupils. It does not prevent Him enter in nitya lila.

 

--of course.. we are free to follow or not, to go fast or slowly

 

If the guru kanistha adhikari but he DOES NOT DEFORM his guru - then- uttama operates

 

--kanista adhikari means "not pure".. "mixed with materialism".. so if the teacher has not a completely pure mind he cannot be a transparent medium for the "operation" of his uttama master. Only an uttama adhikari can fully understand the message of an uttama adhikari and explain it

 

Srila Prabhupada writes - " simply repeat without distortions ". It is qualification.

 

--if one has not a full spiritual mind, distortions are unavoidable, we have seen this from 1978... every guru was (often sincerely) repeating .. but they were not really repeating. A guru is not only one who reads prabhupada books to the disciples, he acts, he interpretes, he gives personal advices, he comment, he instructs according time, place and circumstance. So if he's not pure he can put thousands of distortions between us and prabhupada

 

If Satswarupa Maharaja does not deform, His guru operates. Satswarupa Maharaja can have personal imperfections, BUT IT is LESS IMPORTANT!

 

--a guru teachs with behaviour, achara.. if he has a distorted behaviour he is presenting a distorted teaching

 

ISKCON, not so essentially who your guru because all parampara helps you

 

--impersonalism.. you are connected with parampara if the guru is a pure transparent clean connection.. otherwise no parampara

 

One guru does not solve anything. It is false idea, that one diksa guru solves all

 

--read sri guruvastakam

 

 

 

[theist 1]

I have also wondered about different brain conditions that may arise in someone who had been seen as or surely is guru. particularly Alzheimers. I don't know what to think about it. If someone comes to a point where they don't even recognize the family or disciples how is one supposed to take instructions from them. There is no blame involved. Perhaps that person has been aninspiring and helpful guide up to that point what does a disciple do?

 

I guess it could be seen as just a suspension due to a bodily malfunction and the relationship could be picked up later after the body totally falls off. Afterall the body is not the guru it's just something he uses like a microphone or something. If during a lecture the mike screws up it can cause a temporary delay in the proceeding.

 

If the guru is truly self-realized he himself would be totally lucid but just unable to express that through the current body unit. So he may have to replace it or continue the talk off stage. Something like that.

 

But in the mean time what would the disciple do beyond carrying for the body and seeking the same instruction from someone else or his guru's tapes and books.

 

Alzheimer's is very much like death.

 

On the therapist thing. If someone is a self-realized devotee I can see no reason why he would be trying to straighten out old emotional traumas through some talk therapy or something else.

 

He might be seen as in the dr.'s role but surely not the patient's. And from that role even the idea of counter transference would never arise.

 

I mean the link to the spiritual sky must be beyond such mundane attractions to someone else's physical form or false identity.

 

Everyone can understand and accept even an advanced devotee becoming overwhelmed by such problems. The story of Brahma and his daughter tells us that. The real problem as I see it is the postering *current link* trip that advanced devotees have sometimes fallen in to.

[Guest guest]

thanx for your intelligent remarks here. I may be somewhat of an authority on these things, as I have post traumatic stress disorder, not necessarily a flaw caused by attachment to the body or a flaw in my understanding of my spiritual identity (tho I dont pretend to be authority on sanatana dharma, by any means). In fact, the near death experiance that caused the onset of thios illness is often remembered as a very heavy and enlightening experiance (note, dont go for the light, its a trap, go with the guidance, but this is another topic). The after result from this industrial accident, where I was exposed to 100 times the permitted exposure level of cadmium. lead, and chromium, as well as being blasted with much gamma rays, I was experiancing these things spoken of (headaches, heart attacks, etc) every time I was in enclosed spaces. I was also affected by a hostile work environment due to dacoits defacing a picture of Krsna on my locker.

 

I went to a psychologist, and though I always considered clinical psychology unnecessary, the science that the practitioner knew helped to a great degree. A temple president would tell me I was in maya, and to straighten out, or chant, but such advise would not be practical in regards to fighting through the cues that set off the symptomology of this disease. The Psychologist had real tools to help, and now Im psych free. Not unlike the real acupuncturists who will tell the patient how to do the treatment so he will no longer need the practitioner.

 

Funny thing in dealing with psychologists,they are very open to what devotees have to say. Not because they are "feel gooders", rather because their science delves into control of the senses, gradually replacing bad habits with good ones, there are many things that a devotee can speak freely about. My psychologist would always take the couch when I arrived, and I fully believe there was reciprocation, that we both learned from each other.

 

Now I still do not like psychiatrists, they are the fiends with the prozacs and the shock treatment and the lobotomies, the real Nurse Ratchetts of the science, but psychologists are the therapists who would love to cure the patient without drugs, without behavior modification, etc. But this was my own experiance, maybe there are some real kooks out there, frauds, just like in the other medical professions. Heck, just like the auto mechanics, some can make my 1980 olds cutlass seem like a new car, while others cannot change a spark plug without causing immediate need for a $1500 valve job in a brand new nissan altima.

 

So now yall know how crazy this mad mahax really is, but most didnt need this revelation of my mental illness to make such judgement=;-]

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS Iswara Puri helped Madhavendra Puri chant his rounds, even though the latter was Guru and the former was disciple. This is the example of how a disciple can partially repay guru for the great gifts, not sit around and speculate who is gonna get the goodies when the old dude dies.

[theist 1]

Not so fast there dude. Don't knock prozac. It got mu butt off the floor one time when i got so depressed I couls hardly move. I think I was heading for a birth as a stone of some kind. A lady friend had to even make the appointment for me. I was so depressed that suicide seemed like too much effort(rim shot).

 

It does get abused though I admit. But when your brain gets too low on seratonin. You are thankful for the burst.

 

I did find it interesting that Trpytophan( an amino acid precursor of serotonin) was pulled off the market right before prozac hit the shelves. FDA working under the table with Eli Lily? Nah couldn't be.

 

Years back I had to see a pyschologist as i was so dependent on ganja that i couldn't quit. She was trying to get me more motivated for material life and I kept saying it's no use we aren't the body anyway. I was trying to convince along those lines telling her everyone is insane because no one knows who they are. Then she started trying to treat me for that. lol "Poor guy, doesn't know who he is"

[AncientMariner 0]

That's funny because I had the exact same kind of depression and spent 3 months in a mental hospital in the summer of 1991. I got tired of college so I quit college and just started reading a bunch of philosophy books including Bhagavad Gita and I got a job working at a golf course. . My friends and family members began to swarm on me in complete anxiety over me quitting college and all the pressure just triggered this horrible depression because I didn't feel like they understood what I was going through. I kept telling people I needed to find a spiritual master so I could understand Bhagavad Gita. I was even at the point where I thought the only way to save myself is if I go to India but I was too depressed to even do that. When I first read Bhagavad Gita I found it to be fascinating but I didn't completely understand it. I would tell the doctors I needed to find a spiritual master and they looked at me like I was into voodoo or something. Somehow I survived all the meds. I have been on nearly every psychiatric medication known to mankind. I gave up everything to do with spirituality for quite a few years but one day I was walking through the Seattle airport and some devotees gave me some books and I started reading Bhagavad Gita again and for some reason I have a much clearer understanding of it now. I wish I would have read all those quotes by Prabhupada that you can get the essence of his books simply by reading them over and over again then I wouldn't have had so much confusion over the whole finding a spritual master issue.

[Guest guest]

Haribol. My problem with zoloft, prozak, etc, is that you have to keep taking them. You cant just take one for relief. But I am glad to see recognition of this type illness.

 

My favorite was xanax, an "as needed" drug. But this is often abused, because it is a replacement for the stepford wives fave, valium. I took it when I was being severely chastized by admirals of the US Navy, drop a half tab before the meeting, and i had them dudes eatin out of the palms of my hands. I mean really, what do they have to worry about, I was the one in the radcon area, I was the one keeping their stupid nukes from blowin up in their faces, its not my fault they couldnt understand that corroded wires on a nuclear bomb is kinda unsat, ya know what I mean? But I got right in their faces, on xanax, and just so happened to save the world. See what crazy people can do?

 

Prozaks, too boring for me, and I didnt need to get rearranged, I just needed to calm down a little for meetings, as they came up.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist 1]

Perhaps that struggle to find a guru was just what you needed in some way.

 

Years back I printed out a nice story on this issue and will post it on a separate thread. Quite good I thought.

[theist 1]

Yeah Mahak I know what you mean. It's very hard to live with a mind when the neurons are firing in some sporatic way. Herbs help but if you take too much valerian root before a meeting you are liking to nod off. "yeah admirable, that's nice, let's discuss it after my nap". They may not like that.

 

But these problems are certainly an impediment to we the souls who identify with our bodies and brains, it's even expected, but if someone is cent per cent Krsna conscious would the same problems arise. That's my doubt.

[zackv 0]

Very interesting conversation this is turning into now...I definitely relate.

 

I think some people need medication for psychological disorders. The thing that I'm against is psychiatrists who diagnose the problem, shove you off on a drug, complete their duty to the drug business, and leave you with no solutions other than chemical changes. I'm far more into psychology (which I'm currently majoring in) - counselling, understanding, personal treatment within the mind itself. But psychiatry is necessary for some.

 

I have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, I have suffered from it greatly since fall of 2000. Over the last four years I tried unsuccessfully to ignore and stop it on my own, and last year I underwent psychological counselling and recovered in some ways, but eventually slid backward and am now having a lot of trouble again. I'm going to have to start medication soon if I want to live anything close to a normal life, something I haven't seen in a long time. It's not my preference, but I'm really out of options.

 

And it really upsets me when people say "just chant" etc etc to cure your problems. It doesn't work that way. It's hard to rise above the mind, when the mind is filled with disorders that cause you to constantly be affected by it. Disorders hold you down. They make it impossible for you to live by reason. It's irresponsible for a spiritualist to encourage someone to not seek "outside" treatment. It only leads to a person's continual detriment.

[zackv 0]

Theist - That's something I used to wonder about as well. I guess the only idea I can come up with is basically what you already said. It may be possible for the mind of a pure devotee to become affected by a disorder, but this certainly wouldn't be their fault - it just means the human brain is fundamentally prone to warping (for lack of a better term) into disorder states. The devotee wouldn't be responsible for anything he did that was contrary to his state as a pure devotee because it was being motivated by the disorder, which he had no control over and wasn't truly him. And his normal identity and functions would return after the leaving of the body. That's my guess anyway. I'm sure a lot of people would say "this could never ever happen to a pure devotee" but I don't think it's wrong to admit that it is possible. "Perfection" refers to their spirituality, not the chemicals in their brains.

[Guest guest]

Real quick, for now. The brain is the computer, and a pure devotee may be preachin on line, and then a hacker makes the whole thing crash -mo latah

[Guest guest]

the first symptom of spiritual perfection is mind's control.. and it is achieved by krsna's grace who actually is our mind's controller

 

so, a pure devotee, has a controlled mind not because he, instead of chemicals he has in the brain something else, but because he, being completely surrendered has the mind controlled by krsna and not by maya

 

in a pure devotee there's no difference between matter and spirit.... matter is corruption, so purity and matter cannot stand together

[theist 1]

Yeah zack this is an interesting area to me also and one I can't seem to grasp. I am thinking the the difference may lay with the distinction between the brain and the mind.

 

From our present perspective, on the outside looking in, we may see the visible signs of dementia or some disorder being displayed. But from the other side, that very devotee may be chanting Hare Krsna in full untinged Krsna consciousness with Krsna Himself right with him. But due to some brain malfunction it doesn't get transmitted like that to our level of perception.

 

We are very conditioned. We think the body is the guru. We tend to view Srila Prabhupada as an elderly Indian gentleman for example. This is why we are advised to place special importance on hearing the guru and are warned not to judge him by external appearances.

 

But even if it comes to the guru not being able to speak well or apparantly reason well due to a brain malfunction I think we should know that his relationship with Krsna may still be unchecked.

 

This is great. I have wondered about this occasionally for a long time but it never came up for discussion.

 

We are speculating here but as long as we don't form solid conclusions based on those speculations and remain seeking higher council on the subject we are safe.

 

So can anyone please offer something from sastra or sadhu?

[Guest guest]

Haribol. When we discuss brains and minds, we are discussing different things. The brain is a computer used by the mind, and there are cases where folks without brains (some kinda encephalitis) used spinal fluid to do the same thing.

 

Mind is an element, more subtle, but an element nonetheless. It is universal, and the self uses it, like the self uses water, air, fire, etc.

 

Devotees use things (elements) properly. They do not let the mind control the intelligence, they go the right way. They use intelligence to watch how many things the mind comes up with. A devotee can use the intelligence to control the disease the mind feels by using the brain (computer).

 

Okay, this is quite spacey, but yall know how it goes, as described by Krsna to Arjuna while the latter was having real anxiety syndrome/nervous breakdown on the battlefield. The symptoms described by arjuna were not unlike the symptoms I described about my PTSD. Misery, an empty feeling. cold clammy sweat. He dropped his bow, fer christ sake, now thats an anxiety attack, and he is fully in krsna consciousness in vatsalya rasa, he told krsna "ferget this, I aint fightin".

 

Anyway, I wanted to continue others discussion about pure devotees. What is the condition of an uttama adhikari, an avadhuta like sukadeva, like jada bharata, like yudhisthira after he renounced his kingdom? Is this a brain malady, walkin around unkempt, dreadlocked, naked, unable to speak, unable to eat, being treated like an animal by everyone who see them? No, this is an advanced stage where there is no more false ego, therefore there is no need to do ANY demand of the body, including using the brain/computer, the mind is of no use, even intelligence is uncalled for, because the self is in Vaikuntha, free from birth and death and all the stuff inbetween--mo latah hare krsna, mahaksadasa

 

ps This is so cool, how this discussion has changed to really good, life and death stuff, away from criticism, facing the very real alzhemers that is awaiting us all. Maybe some multiples can join in, schizos are really folks living in multiple dimensions, the disease is that the wall separating the dimensions loses solidity, and the self gets confused. now thats speculation. Gotta run now, and so do I.