falling down

[Guest guest]

If someone has broken the four regulative principles before taking initiation, he or she may be forgiven or his sins may be wiped out at the time of initiation.

But what if one breaks the four regulative principles after initiation? What if one slips into the clutches of Maya after initiation and than realizes not to commit that sin again.

I am talking about one of the Reg. Principles No Illicit....

Is there hope??? or is the person guranteed a spot in hell?

[Kulapavana 0]

a single falldown does not condemn you to hell... that is silly. just pick yourself up and carry on. however, you should probably tell your spiritual master about it. Vows are a serious matter and you do have a responsibility to the person who took you in as disciple. also, he may give you some good advice on how to handle your problems. Hare Krishna!

[Guest guest]

If someone has broken the four regulative principles before taking initiation, he or she may be forgiven or his sins may be wiped out at the time of initiation.

--the ceremony of initiation does not wipe so much.. it is our real surrendering who wipes

 

But what if one breaks the four regulative principles after initiation?

--it is a little worst because one has taken a vow

 

I am talking about one of the Reg. Principles No Illicit....

--if all the devotees who has made sex after initiation die now, the movement is annihilated (in my opinion it is realistic to expect that the 99% of devotees are not adulterine, but not more)

 

Is there hope??? or is the person guranteed a spot in hell?

--there's hope.. stick to one woman.. your wife.. or find a wife if you haven't

[theist 1]

TRANSLATION

 

Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.

 

PURPORT

 

The word su-durah used in this verse is very significant, and we should understand it properly. When a living entity is conditioned, he has two kinds of activities: one is conditional, and the other is constitutional. As for protecting the body or abiding by the rules of society and state, certainly there are different activities, even for the devotees, in connection with the conditional life, and such activities are called conditional. Besides these, the living entity who is fully conscious of his spiritual nature and is engaged in Krsna consciousness, or the devotional service of the Lord, has activities which are called transcendental. Such activities are performed in his constitutional position, and they are technically called devotional service. Now, in the conditioned state, sometimes devotional service and the conditional service in relation to the body will parallel one another. But then again, sometimes these activities become opposed to one another. As far as possible, a devotee is very cautious so that he does not do anything that could disrupt his wholesome condition. He knows that perfection in his activities depends on his progressive realization of Krsna consciousness. Sometimes, however, it may be seen that a person in Krsna consciousness commits some act which may be taken as most abominable socially or politically. But such a temporary falldown does not disqualify him. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that if a person falls down but is wholeheartedly engaged in the transcendental service of the Supreme Lord, the Lord, being situated within his heart, purifies him and excuses him from that abomination. The material contamination is so strong that even a yogi fully engaged in the service of the Lord sometimes becomes ensnared; but Krsna consciousness is so strong that such an occasional falldown is at once rectified. Therefore the process of devotional service is always a success. No one should deride a devotee for some accidental falldown from the ideal path, for, as explained in the next verse, such occasional falldowns will be stopped in due course, as soon as a devotee is completely situated in Krsna consciousness.

 

Therefore a person who is situated in Krsna consciousness and is engaged with determination in the process of chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare should be considered to be in the transcendental position, even if by chance or accident he is found to have fallen. The words sadhur eva, "he is saintly," are very emphatic. They are a warning to the nondevotees that because of an accidental falldown a devotee should not be derided; he should still be considered saintly even if he has accidentally fallen down. And the word mantavyah is still more emphatic. If one does not follow this rule, and derides a devotee for his accidental falldown, then one is disobeying the order of the Supreme Lord. The only qualification of a devotee is to be unflinchingly and exclusively engaged in devotional service.

 

In the Nrisimha Purana the following statement is given:

 

bhagavati ca harananya-cet

 

The meaning is that even if one fully engaged in the devotional service of the Lord is sometimes found engaged in abominable activities, these activities should be considered to be like the spots that resemble the mark of a rabbit on the moon. Such spots do not become an impediment to the diffusion of moonlight. Similarly, the accidental falldown of a devotee from the path of saintly character does not make him abominable.

 

On the other hand, one should not misunderstand that a devotee in transcendental devotional service can act in all kinds of abominable ways; this verse only refers to an accident due to the strong power of material connections. Devotional service is more or less a declaration of war against the illusory energy. As long as one is not strong enough to fight the illusory energy, there may be accidental falldowns. But when one is strong enough, he is no longer subjected to such falldowns, as previously explained. No one should take advantage of this verse and commit nonsense and think that he is still a devotee. If he does not improve in his character by devotional service, then it is to be understood that he is not a high devotee.

 

 

[theist 1]

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes.

 

PURPORT

 

This should not be misunderstood. In the Seventh Chapter the Lord says that one who is engaged in mischievous activities cannot become a devotee of the Lord. One who is not a devotee of the Lord has no good qualifications whatsoever. The question remains, then, How can a person engaged in abominable activities — either by accident or by intention — be a pure devotee? This question may justly be raised. The miscreants, as stated in the Seventh Chapter, who never come to the devotional service of the Lord, have no good qualifications, as is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Generally, a devotee who is engaged in the nine kinds of devotional activities is engaged in the process of cleansing all material contamination from the heart. He puts the Supreme Personality of Godhead within his heart, and all sinful contaminations are naturally washed away. Continuous thinking of the Supreme Lord makes him pure by nature. According to the Vedas, there is a certain regulation that if one falls down from his exalted position he has to undergo certain ritualistic processes to purify himself. But here there is no such condition, because the purifying process is already there in the heart of the devotee, due to his remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly. Therefore, the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage. This will protect a devotee from all accidental falldowns. He will thus remain perpetually free from all material contaminations.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Are there any prayaschit's (attonment) that can be performed to eradicate this type of sin?

Do you really think the person should speak to his or her spiritual master?

Thank you for all your inputs so far.

[Sunandaji 0]

Don't worry too much prabhuji, sex life is very difficult to overcome. i'm initiated, and i have sex with my wife, because i wouldn't be able to be continent. She was my girlfriend, and we did a vedic marriage then it is better. a lot of devotees have sex with their girlfriend or wife. i know it's not the best. I have also initiated friends who are gay and have sex too. according to your abilities, do the best you can, just chant, you'll see it will gradually regulate.

I'm initiated in the Gaudiya Math, i didn't made a vow of no illicit sex life. of course it is absolutely not recomended, but there's no big feeling of guilt if you still do it. In my opinion it also help a lot to regulate. PLease remember that guilt NEVER help. while you're thinking about your sins, you don't remember Krsna, so forget all your little problems and try to remember God.

 

This problem of no illicit sex is known by all the devotees... non- initiated, harimama, diska initiated.

 

Just chant, things will come gradually.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your reply, sundandaji. But I was not referring to it within marriage, if you read from the beginning you will see what i was referring to.

I meant what if someone falls after initiation and has an illicit with someone else and realizes the gross mistake and decides never to let it happen.

Is there anything that can be done to nullify this sin?

[Guest guest]

Fall downs will be there. Remember that when Arjuna asked a similar question to Krsna he told him that 'one who does good, my friend, is never overcome by evil'.

 

Be sincere, chant Hare Krsna and pray to be relieved of the lust that drives you to act in ways that are against the natural flow of devotion. Lord Nityananda can clear your heart of all these anarthas.

 

In the big picture Guru and Krsna don't consider a fall down to be so dramatic. It is like the father and mother seeing their child fall as the child attempts to walk - it is inevitable for some time. But for the sadhaka it can be very traumatic and it may seem to him/her that they have dug themselves into a hole that they cannot be retrieved from. Try to have a vision of the big picture. If falling down results in dejection and apathy and yeilds more detrimental behavior then it is not good in any way. On the other hand if a fall down makes you want to strive to improve yourself and keep your heart and mind focused so that you don't fall again - that's good.

 

Being a hypocrit and pretender is the worst thing that could possibly come from vow making and breaking. Someone who has taken initiation accompanied by the taking of vows to abstain from certain behaviors does so with all good intentions. But you should know that the spiritual path is not an easy one and that the conditioning of the jiva very may well be such that he/she will fall short in terms of keeping their vows. But we are all servants forever and we must progress from here. Krsna is not going to condemn you for a slip along the way. Get up and push forward.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[Guest guest]

Thank you Audarya-Lila Prabhu and everyone for all the inputs.

[Guest guest]

Good to see your always welcome input here again, prabhu!!!

 

"...we are all servants forever and we must progress from here..."

 

To that I say, "Right on! Fer sure! You betcha!"