literal or not?

[autumn 0]

Hello all,

 

I just have a question. How important is it to take all the scriptures literaly or historicaly? I mean, can one chant Hare Krishna and become God conscious if they have doubts about wether the scriptures are really literal or not? How important is it to believe in them as historically accurate? Or is it more important to understand the essential truths and ideas they represent?

 

I have a very hard time accepting the time line of history presented by various modern Krsna organizations, which they try to base on the vedic books. Also I have a hard time seeing the sastra as more than simply personal interpretations of humans in writting, for the purpose of pointing people toward some essential truth, according to the time/place/circumstance of the authors, (even if those authors may have been spiritually advanced humans at that.)

 

How important is "belief", or is it more important to practice chanting and experience the "proof in the pudding"?

 

Thanks alot.

[Kulapavana 0]

some passages in the shastra are literal and some are allegorical. in order to understand which is which you take shelter of a bona fide Vaishnava sampradaya. if you keep chanting sincerely, your doubts will gradually be resolved and your understanding will deepen. this world is SO MUCH MORE than meets the eye! patience grasshopper... patience... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist 1]

Letter to Krsnadasa 1972 excerpt:

 

But because you have asked me, I am your spiritual master, I must try to answer to your satisfaction. Yes, sometimes in Vedas such things like the asura's decapitated head chasing after Candraloka, sometimes it is explained allegorically. Just like now we are explaining in 4th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam the story of King Puranjana. Just like the living entity is living within this body, and the body is described there as city with nine gates, the intelligence as the Queen. So there are sometimes allegorical explanations. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct? So we are concerned with Krishna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavat, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam. But this is a fact that in each and every planet there is a predominant deity, as we have got experience in this planet there is a president, so it is not wonderful when the predominating deity fights with another predominating deity of another planet. The modern science takes everything as dead stone. We take it for granted that everything is being manipulated by a person in each and every affair of the cosmology. The modern scientists however could not make any progress in the understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore we do not accept modern science as very perfect. We take Krishna's version:

gam avisya ca bhutani

dharayamy aham ojasa

pusnami causadhih sarvah

somo bhutvah rasatmakah

(BG, 15.13)

``I become the moon,'' and ``yac chandramasi yac cagnau,'' (ibid, 12) ``I am the splendor of the moon,'' and ``jyotisam api taj jyotis,'' (BG, 13.18) ``I am the source of light in all luminous objects,'' so no one is able to give us the correct information than Krishna, that you should know....

...``Jnanam jneyam jnana-gamyam,'' (ibid), Krishna is knowledge, He is the object of knowledge, He is the goal of knowledge, and

you mam evam asammudho

janati purusottamam

sa sarva-vid bhajati mam

(BG, XV, 19)

``Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is to be understood as the knower of everything, and he engages himself therefore in devotional service''--this is the understanding of advanced devotee, so my best advice to you is to agree to come to this understanding. Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[gHari 0]

 

Accept only what you can readily. This way your faith will be strong while Krsna fills in the blanks as time progresses. You are not in this alone. Reality is very complicated and we need the expert help of the Supersoul to pass through the complexity. Krsna appreciates honesty over blind pretense.

 

Stay perceptive to His lessons as life moves along, and all will be revealed. He is not preaching to your mind anyway. There is something more valuable, more durable, that lies beyond all the words that needs to be enlivened.

 

After coming to know our own amazing soul better, these outlandish ideas become really quite tame when the world is at last placed into perspective - how much greater than we can Sri Krsna be?

 

 

[Guest guest]

"How important is "belief", or is it more important to practice chanting and experience the "proof in the pudding"?"

 

belief is not at all important, gaudya vaishnavism is a school, so no one requests us to believe to the subjects of the last year before starting the school

 

personally i have experienced some of the (basic) truths found in scriptures and acharya's teachings, so i have a sufficient faith that the things i do not understand are also true

 

i never went in china... but i trust on the informations i have that china exists

[Guest guest]

Yes, the proof is indeed in the "pudding", but He/She must be personally experienced, not simply studied about. Too much objective knowlege can be very detrimental to humble sincere practice. The God we seek that will truly satisfy our hearts is highly personal, as are we, and must be experienced as such.

 

This Hare Krsna maha-mantra certainly contains everything and is always unconditionally available at all times to everyone in this Age of Kali (quarel and hypocrisy). Best to develop a genuine taste for chanting the Holy Names personally, from the heart, over and above everything else asap. Trust in God to personally reveal all you need to know, as required for your individual progress.

 

There's a vast difference between realized knowlege and philosophy, whether taken "literally" or not. The know in spiritual knowlege can come only by direct revelation of the Divine. We have so many books, dieties, gurus and devotees available for us. It is surrendering to the chanting though which will guide us through the maze of confusion that inevitably rises, helping us to best utilize them all with the right motivation.

 

Just try to respect and if possible appreciate whatever happens in your life as God given. Opportunities for Krsna consciousness abound at every moment. Those who are fortunate enough to see themselves as small insignificant servants of everyone else, humbly submitting to God everywhere in everyone and everything, while never thinking they will ever be capable of understanding anything except their own need to take personal shelter in the Holy Names constantly, remain in the best position.

 

Faith is firstly inspired by hearing, especially in the association of those whose faith is similar to your's yet more strongly fixed. Submissive inquiry is recommended, however unlimited questions keep coming up, often preventing surrender rather than encouraging it. Mental speculation runs rampant, usually leading to arguments and bad feeings instead of genuinely productive discussions. The Age of Kali affects all of us, as evidenced on this very forum.

 

So keep it simple, personal and sincere. Like a tiny speck of magnetic dust, cling to your own personal Radha-Krsna with deep longing feelings, chanting outwardly and inwardly as much as possible. Our relationship with God is eternal and that can't change except to evolve, hopefully growing closer and more intimately loving. All others may come and go, although of course they have their roles to play. Attach yourself to the eternal keeping your God in the center and work on what really counts, without getting distracted by pettiness or drawn into into minor squabbles.

 

Time is precious and life is a lot shorter than we think, something many tend to realize much too late, myself included. Hare Krsna!

[theist 1]

SB 4.8.2: Another son of Lord Brahma was Irreligion, whose wife's name was Falsity. From their combination were born two demons named Dambha, or Bluffing, and Maya, or Cheating. These two demons were taken by a demon named Nirriti, who had no children.

 

SB 4.8.3: Maitreya told Vidura: O great soul, from Dambha and Maya were born Greed and Nikriti, or Cunning. From their combination came children named Krodha (Anger) and Himsa (Envy), and from their combination were born Kali and his sister Durukti (Harsh Speech).

 

SB 4.8.4: O greatest of all good men, by the combination of Kali and Harsh Speech were born children named Mrityu (Death) and Bhiti (Fear). From the combination of Mrityu and Bhiti came children named Yatana (Excessive Pain) and Niraya (Hell).

 

 

SB 4.8.5: My dear Vidura, I have summarily explained the causes of devastation. One who hears this description three times attains piety and washes the sinful contamination from his soul.

 

PURPORT to 4.8.5

 

The creation takes place on the basis of goodness, but devastation takes place because of irreligion. That is the way of material creation and devastation. Here it is stated that the cause of devastation is Adharma, or Irreligion. The descendants of Irreligion and Falsity, born one after another, are Bluffing, Cheating, Greed, Cunning, Anger, Envy, Quarrel, Harsh Speech, Death, Fear, Severe Pain and Hell. All these descendants are described as signs of devastation. If a person is pious and hears about these causes of devastation, he will feel hatred for all these, and that will cause his advancement in a life of piety. Piety refers to the process of cleansing the heart. As recommended by Lord Caitanya, one has to cleanse the dust from the mirror of the mind, and then advancement on the path of liberation begins. Here also the same process is recommended. Malam means: "contamination." We should learn to despise all the causes of devastation, beginning from irreligion and cheating, and then we shall be able to make advancement in a life of piety. The possibility of our attaining Krsna consciousness will be easier, and we shall not be subjected to repeated devastation. The present life is repeated birth and death, but if we seek the path of liberation, we may be saved from repeated suffering.

 

<<<

 

 

Would it matter if we took these verses literally or figuratively.

 

I have no firm position I want to propagate or defend, just wondering if someone can point out what difference it would make either way.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist 1]

Or is there another reason for the aversion?

 

 

TRANSLATION SB 5.13.26

 

King Pariksit then told Sukadeva Gosvämi: My dear lord, O great devotee sage, you are omniscient. You have very nicely described the position of the conditioned soul, who is compared to a merchant in the forest. From these instructions intelligent men can understand that the senses of a person in the bodily conception are like rogues and thieves in that forest, and one’s wife and children are like jackals and other ferocious animals. However, it is not very easy for the unintelligent to understand the purport of this story because it is difficult to extricate the exact meaning from the allegory. I therefore request Your Holiness to give the direct meaning.

 

PURPORT

 

There are many stories and incidents in Srimad-Bhägavatam that are described figuratively. Such allegorical descriptions may not be understood by unintelligent men; therefore it is the duty of the student to approach a bona fide spiritual master for the direct explanation.

[theist 1]

TRANSLATION SB 12.3.14

Sukadeva Gosvämi said: O mighty Pariksit, I have related to you the narrations of all these great kings, who spread their fame throughout the world and then departed. My real purpose was to teach transcendental knowledge and renunciation. Stories of kings lend power and opulence to these narrations but do not in themselves constitute the ultimate aspect of knowledge.

 

PURPORT

Since all the narrations of Srimad-Bhägavatam bring the reader to the perfection of transcendental knowledge, they all give supreme spiritual lessons though apparently dealing with kings or other mundane subject matter. In relation with Krsna, all ordinary topics become transcendental narrations, with the power to bring the reader to the perfection of life.