open temples

[theist 1]

I heard that the Berkeley Temple,New Jagannatha Puri, had drastically changed the hours it is open to the public. So I dropped by today and the doors were locked. Aposting was in the window announcing that during the week it would be closed from 8:30am to 6:00 pm. It also mention the need for more security for the Deities.

 

Anyone know if there has been some sort of incident to make this necessary. Like some screwball wandering onto the altar or something?

[KrsnadasaDasa 0]

There are heavy metal gates installed to protect the deities, so this doesn't quite make sense.

 

Please do let us know when you hear more?

 

I am exspecially anxious, as I was so blessed to have Lord Jagannatha Who now resides in the Berkeley temple witness my initiation so many years ago in San Francisco,

 

Sincerely,

Krsnadasa dasa

 

 

[Kulapavana 0]

they probably dont have enough devotees to keep the temple open all day. it is very sad. our Movement has been completely marginalized in recent years /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Govindaram 1]

 

that Iskcon devotee numbers are much less, maybe has something to do with Varna system.

 

He said because of difficulties temples were having to close down, unheard of in Hindu Community.

 

When the big fish eat all the little fish, the little fish have nowhere to go.

[Kulapavana 0]

the failure of any organization is practicaly always due to the failure of its management. as to how it relates to varna: kshatriyas should be the ones who manage - all others simply create disturbance. the pseudo-brahmanas of ISKCON drove pretty much all kshatriya devotees away. other (non-ISKCON) missions are doing a little better here in US, but not by much, at least as far as I know.

[Guest guest]

a religious organization, temple, church, monastery has to be managed by brahmanas, priests, monks, brahmacharis, sannyasis

 

if you say that iskcon has failed in building a congregation based on varnashrama principle you are right, because congregation, made mainly of grihasta (sudra/vaisha/ksatrya/brahmana), people who make money and sons, could give money to temple and send sons to gurukula to live as brahmachary and populate the temple

 

but a ksatrya cannot manage a temple directly and cannot live in a temple as a monk and renunciate

 

(many iskcon and gaudya math communities, especially in india, are doing well in this (orthodox) way without calling policemen and soldiers as temple presidents)

[Guest guest]

A brahmana should be pujari, but certainly management is not a priestly job. It's especially not good for brahmins to get involved in the business aspect. They may do so if they have to, but it's not recommended. One should do what one is best at. The brahmin should not have to resort to business or politics if he doesn't have to for economic reasons, or because the vaishyas and kshatriyas are not doing their part. I am a kshatriya, and I know I'm best suited to politics. But more than that, I am a devotee of Sri Krishna, and if by His will I somehow end up doing something else, that's fine by me. All in all, if you have Lord Krishna's grace, your temple will thrive, and if the wrong person is managing, He will bring you a new manager, send you to a new temple, or resolve your problem in some other way. Do not fret, brother.

[livingentity 0]

if anyone finds our why the temple schedule has so radically changed - please post here.

 

[Kulapavana 0]

ISKCON as organization is very different than a monastic religious order. I'm surprised you cant see that. Even in India temples are managed mostly by householders of the right background. The desire of many "renunciates" to comfortably manage funds and people delivered to them by loyal congregation is nothing new under the sun. The India example is irrelevant here as we are talking about temples in the West. Your idea of limiting kshatriyas to police and soldiers is somewhat superficial. Kshatriyas duties relate to both protection AND administration of society. But even if you believe that "iskcon has failed in building a congregation based on varnashrama principle" it is still a FAILURE OF THE MANAGEMENT, isn't it? I have seen more sudras and vaishyas pretending to be brahmanas or kshatriyas in ISKCON than I care to remember. and btw: even in Vedic times brahmanas were not managing the society. They were simply advising kshatriyas in these matters.

[Guest guest]

A brahmana should be pujari, but certainly management is not a priestly job

--we are speaking of temples, congregation can help, also in management, but a temple is to be directed by people who live there.. brahmacharys, sannyasis etc.

 

The brahmin should not have to resort to business or politics

--we are speaking of temples, not parliaments and wall street

 

I am a kshatriya, and I know I'm best suited to politics.

--who is the saint king and spiritual master who has given to you this status?

 

But more than that, I am a devotee of Sri Krishna, and if by His will I somehow end up doing something else, that's fine by me

--you are already serving being initiated by a vaishnava spiritual master and chanting hare krishna, in this way your karma will be transformed in yoga.. this is your devotional service, like arjuna. If you do like this well, you can also voluntarily in spare time make something directly for the temple, if you do not do well your duties on the varnashrama plane, everything else will be almost useless and it will stop in little time

 

 

[Guest guest]

ISKCON as organization is very different than a monastic religious order.

--i do not see difference: churchs, monks, priests, congregations, a vatican (gbc) and more that one pope (the gurus)

 

The desire of many "renunciates" to comfortably manage funds and people delivered to them by loyal congregation is nothing new under the sun.

--yes.. as an help, advice.. but temple president has to be a brahmin. In the original wish of prabhupada presidents have to elect gbcs and gbcs care mainly about spiritual matters, so there's the need of brahmanas to elect other brahmanas

 

The India example is irrelevant here as we are talking about temples in the West

--in india there's krsna conscious temples from 5000 yrs ago, why you do not want to take example?

 

Your idea of limiting kshatriyas to police and soldiers is somewhat superficial. Kshatriyas duties relate to both protection AND administration of society

--you're right, i had to add politicians

 

But even if you believe that "iskcon has failed in building a congregation based on varnashrama principle" it is still a FAILURE OF THE MANAGEMENT, isn't it?

--no, it is DOCTRINAL failure, not management failure... going against bhagavad gita (and prabhupada's teachings) we have preached for long time that only joining the temple there's the possibility to surrender to krsna. In this way we have filled temples of frustrated brahmacharis and sannyasis and we have rejected to give the status of devotee to many people who wanted to remain in their varna, in the society, and chanting hare krishna (=the real krishna consciousness as spoken by krsna to arjuna). So frustrated people are gone away leaving empty temples and we have not a congregation to send sons to gurukulas to have new brahmacharis/sannyasis.. doctrinal failure

(obviously nothing is lost.... we can start to behave in the right way right now)

 

even in Vedic times brahmanas were not managing the society.

--we are talking of ashram, temples, not usa parliament

[Kulapavana 0]

"ISKCON as organization is very different than a monastic religious order.

--i do not see difference: churchs, monks, priests, congregations, a vatican (gbc) and more that one pope (the gurus)

 

by "monastic religious order" I was refering to a matha or a monastery. Prabhupada envisioned ISKCON to be a lot more than that.

 

"temple president has to be a brahmin"

care to provide any quotes why? local temple devotees elect the temple president. no reference to varna but we judge by the results and principles of varna.

 

India monastic examples are irrelevant in this context as they operate within a society that naturally supports such temples.

 

"it is DOCTRINAL failure, not management failure" this doctrine was firmly established when Srila Prabhupada was still with us and it is largely based on his instructions. devotees are frustrated because they are being mismanaged by their leaders. just ask them. and if you insist on the false doctrine theory, WHO introduced it to our society? yes, the leaders or managers.

 

"even in Vedic times brahmanas were not managing the society.

--we are talking of ashram, temples, not usa parliament"

 

ISKCON was envisioned to create a fully functional society of devotees. that is the "S" in ISKCON

[Govindaram 1]

 

{reply to first post}

 

same thing that happens to Churchs?

 

I have no idea, maybe its because of offences or ppls are just not interested, previous Guest said about ppls not really wanting to live in a Temple, being strict is great as Prabhupada ALWAYS was, but I think (who nos) that ppls maybe' do not attend temple, as they are not YET living by the rules and regulation, so think they are not good enough, then the question arises who is?

[Kulapavana 0]

I wish we were doing as well as most churches here in US! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Religious interest is WAY UP in general population but we just cant seem to tap into it... I live in a devotee rural community in NC (but not officially affiliated with ISKCON) and we are doing fine (now working on finishing the Temple) but certainly nothing to bragg about in terms of preaching.

[Guest guest]

"ISKCON as organization is very different than a monastic religious order.

--i do not see difference: churchs, monks, priests, congregations, a vatican (gbc) and more that one pope (the gurus)

by "monastic religious order" I was refering to a matha or a monastery. Prabhupada envisioned ISKCON to be a lot more than that.

--ok, let us call it a church and we agree

 

"temple president has to be a brahmin"

care to provide any quotes why?

--it is a temple, temple is made by deities and brahmins... who has to be the president if not a brahmin? why the temple's president has to be one from outside?

 

India monastic examples are irrelevant in this context as they operate within a society that naturally supports such temples.

--krsna consciousness comes from india.. india's example is relevant.. and the society who support temples has to be build with varnashrama system. This is krsna consciousness, if we do not make varnashrama there's no possibility, or little, to surrender through our own attitudes and to go back to godhead (=bhagavad gita)

 

this doctrine was firmly established when Srila Prabhupada was still with us and it is largely based on his instructions

--no, prabhupada has given big emphasis on "varnashrama" (even in his "death" bed... look at disappearance video).. and we have to consider that it was also an "emergency" period, prabhupada was with us for few years and something was to do in "unortodox" way. But now emergency is ended and we have seen that join iskcon in that way does not work anymore (before it has somewhat worked with the sanction of pure devotee... now varnashrama... brahmanas and congregation)

 

devotees are frustrated because they are being mismanaged by their leaders.

--the first mismanaging was not applying varnashrama and calling at the place of brahmanas people of any guna and karma... against bhagavad gita rules

 

just ask them

--i ask it to myself.. i was there

 

and if you insist on the false doctrine theory, WHO introduced it to our society? yes, the leaders or managers

--backed up by people (me included) who not knowing bhagavad gita accepted blindly the theory that everyone has to live in the temple to be krsna conscious

 

ISKCON was envisioned to create a fully functional society of devotees. that is the "S" in ISKCON

--again... now we are speaking of temples.. if you became the "ksatrya leader of iskcon" do you believe to be leader also in my private home even if i am an iskcon member initiated by an iskcon guru? so iskcon, as official organization has power on temples, in temples are living brahmins, so brahmins have to administrate.. of course with help and advice from congregation (=the devotees of grihasta ashram and the other three varnas)... but the temple president is a brahmin

 

ksatrya cannot have this role, they have no time because they are already doing their own job as militars, policemen, mayors, presidents of states, kings, parliament members and so on

 

 

[Guest guest]

ppls maybe' do not attend temple, as they are not YET living by the rules and regulation

 

to attend the temple there's no need of any regulation... to live in the temple it is necessary

[theist 1]

Our taking shelter of our intelligence in an effort to solve such problems, while important, will only take us so far.

 

I am not saying this about the Berkeley Temple as I have no idea what's up there, but in general when the presence of the Lord is withdrawn would should feel anxious. This should then cause us to engage in introspection and examinination to see where our default may lay(lie, ly?). If sincere the Lord will show us. But for sure, wherever the problem is found to reside, we must humble ourselves before the Lord and beg for His return.

 

Maybe in the same spirit as the devotee who started the other thread, I always liked it when older Prabhupada disciples would show up. It's nice to have them in the congregation rather they are intensly practicing these days or not.

[Kulapavana 0]

your idea that temples are only for celibate brahmanas is both impractical and contrary to SP's idea of ISKCON. I have been in ISKCON for 25 years and have succesfully built and managed temples, all this time being a kshatriya and part of this time being married (until some pseudo-brahmana sannyasi decided it was time to get rid of me)... so much for your theory.

 

If you want a brahmana for a temple president make sure they are a real brahmana and not some sudra pretender who could not make it on the outside and is looking for an easy ride.

 

"if you became the "ksatrya leader of iskcon" do you believe to be leader also in my private home even if i am an iskcon member initiated by an iskcon guru?"

 

dont be absurd. I was talking about practical management business that has little to do with your private life, spiritual or material.

 

very, very few devotees have any idea about how to apply varnashrama system in present situation. that was to be the remaining 50% of SP's mission. Sadly, we have made no progress. Actually, we even greatly diminished the 50% that Prabhupada has left us.

[Guest guest]

your idea that temples are only for celibate brahmanas is both impractical and contrary to SP's idea of ISKCON.

--i don't know how it can be against srila prabhupada, how can one have a regular family life in an ashram? so if grihasta are not fit for temples the remaining ashramas are brahmachary, vanaprasta, sannyasi.... celibate brahmanas

 

If you want a brahmana for a temple president make sure they are a real brahmana

--of course

 

"if you became the "ksatrya leader of iskcon" do you believe to be leader also in my private home even if i am an iskcon member initiated by an iskcon guru?"

dont be absurd. I was talking about practical management business that has little to do with your private life, spiritual or material.

--so in this case we are speaking specifically of temples even if you said , and i agree, that iskcon phenomenon is surely beyond the building of a monastic order

 

very, very few devotees have any idea about how to apply varnashrama system in present situation.

--i am not so intelligent or enlightened, and i had wrong ideas on what is a devotee for many years, but the answer is simple and it is given by the bhagavad gita, one has to respect his guna and karma, chant hare krishna, take initiation by a pure vaishnava and gradually purify his life. Who has the guna and karma of a monk will be a monk in the temple, who has guna and karma of a farmer he will remain in the fields adding krsna consciousness to his regular life

 

Sadly, we have made no progress. Actually, we even greatly diminished the 50% that Prabhupada has left us.

--we are conditionated souls, the acharyas know very well thet we corrupt a certain percentage of their work.. so no problem, krsna is there, he will help to continue prabhupada's job

[theist 1]

 

Please do let us know when you hear more?

 

 

I spoke to Rajahamsa(co-president)

and he confirmed that indeed it is due to lack of bhaktas. Sorry if I alarmed anyone by thinking of miscreant intruders. But that is the worry.

 

This is a very worrisome sign.

[gHari 0]

We were afraid it had been taken over by the Jehovah Witnesses or the Moonies or some other kinda cult like that. Scare our fragile hearts - double shame on you.

 

[theist 1]

gruble gruble on the ground before you with folded hands "please pardon me"