Intimacy

[Guest guest]

God can be understood and related to in so many different ways, in fact our connection with Him/Her can never be severed, for as part-and-parcels we remain absolutely dependent in every respect. Different individuals are placed in differing situations according to their desire for intimacy. Godhead is therefore seen objectively or impersonally by some, while others are naturally attracted to a more subjective and personal connection. Krsna continually gives us the intelligence to approach Him in accordance with our immediate desires.

 

Gaudiya Vaishnavism offers the greatest intimacy possible, that of a manjari maidservant to Sri Radha, who represents the most personal side of Krsna. She cannot be approached simply by religious ritualism or realized in a merely philosophical sense. Krsna Himself becomes a devotee to enter into Her mood, attempting to understand Her better. We are thereby given the opportunity to also share Her feelings through His Divine Grace, by accepting gurudeva as one of the most confidential maidservants of Srimati Radharani.

 

We should therefore take every chance we're given to serve the living guru and try to appreciate him as personally as possible, internally empathizing heart-to-heart. I remember Srila Prabhupada almost crying as he humbly revealed his belief that his own guru had sent all of us to help him fulfill that same guru's wish to spread Krsna Conciousness worldwide. This is how we should likewise try to appreciate one and other. IMHO that is more pleasing to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga, Radhika in particular, than anything else. Haribol, prabhus!

[Guest guest]

i find it interesting that you include 'manjari maidservant' as the goal of gaudiya vaisnavism,

i was under the impression that serving the desire

of the gopis out of love was the goal,not attaining

position for our enjoyment.

 

if indeed the truth is what you claim,that gaudiya

vaisnavism is for the purpose of becoming a manjari,

could you please explain what the gopis get out of that

service ?

 

how are they served by your role as a manjari ?

 

if you say something like " to aid in their service to

Radha Krsna, i would like to point out that the gopis,

Radha and Krsna are all one and the same person,

so in that regard,as well as the gopis being

hladini saktis,the enjoying aspect of godhead,

how are they served ,how do they enjoy your service

as a manjari ?

 

what value to them would your service as a manjari actually be ?

 

I say ,nothing, they do not need your service as a manjari,

or desire it,any interpretation stating otherwise

needs to show why they desire it,simply repeating

shastra will not do, as we have been advised rasa lila

shastra can easily be misunderstood by those unqualified,

present a viable logical reason why the gopis would desire

manjari seva from you,instead of some other form

of enjoyment.

 

as you are calling this thread "intimacy",

i find it rather strange that the gopis would desire

a manjari rasa from you, is that the most intimate

rasa you can have with them ?

 

Since they are the enjoying aspect of Sri Krsna

how is a manjari the most intimate form

of rasa with them ?

 

doesn't seem right,doesn't seem

as very intimate at all.

[lover_soul]

Intimacy: close or warm friendship; "the absence of fences created a mysterious intimacy in which no one knew privacy" [syn: familiarity, closeness]

2: a feeling of being intimate and belonging together; "their closeness grew as the night wore on"

 

Can we have an intimate relation with God while staying in this world? If not why not? If yes, how do you know if that type of relationship is a mutual interest between God and you and not something that is coming from your own imagination?

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

"Gaudiya Vaishnavism offers the greatest intimacy possible, that of a manjari maidservant to Sri Radha, who represents the most personal side of Krsna."

 

 

Please note the word "offers" is not at all the same as "goal" in your reply...also, scripture reveals that most manjaris are more concerned with the well-being of Radha than Krsna, including Sri Rupa manjari. Of course, there are several other Gaudiya Vaishnava paramparas. Take your choice, but try to remember 'heart over head' is the rule in bhakti and Radhika always defeats Krsna. Not that philosophy and religion don't have their place, but devotional feelings should never be immediately written off as mere sentimentality.

 

Our philosophy is God as simultaneously one and different, enabling wonderfully inviting pastimes. Still there are those not attracted who prefer to remain detached, however that doesn't give them the right to automatically assume their personal position is superior. That, sir, is simply offensive as well as rude and ignorant -- whatever your apparent intellectual prowess or philosphical understanding. Objective realization of 'godness' can actually prove to be an impediment in the long run. Haribol!

[yasodanandana]

Can we have an intimate relation with God while staying in this world?

•••••any relation with the supreme personality of godhead is on the spiritual plane, if we are with god we are in vaikunta even if externally it seems that we live on the earth

 

If not why not?

••••so.. yes.. but material world become spiritual world, because ultimately it is a state of consciousness

 

If yes, how do you know if that type of relationship is a mutual interest between God and you and not something that is coming from your own imagination?

••••it is not possible to have a close relationship with god (as the gopas and gopis for example) if we are conditioned,

 

these rasas are very much beyond the liberation from material suffering. So, if we think to have a direct relation with krsna and simultaneously we have basic moral problems, fear of the death, pain, discontinuity of consciousness and so on this relation is illusory and dangerous for our spiritual and mental health.

 

To be spiritual means to be CIT.. completely conscious.. so if one has a close relation with krsna he does not feel the need to ask others if it is true or not. He sees krsna directly, he lives with krsna, he's conscious to be eternal, he is in complete and ever increasing bliss.

 

The vaishnavas chant hare krishna, accept a spiritual master and serve krsna through guru and devotees.. the other realizations are obviously welcomed but they come at the right time without separate efforts

 

 

[Guest guest]

the point was you saying that the most intimate rasa

is that of manjari,you skillfully avoided explaining

how an 8 year old girl can have the most intimate rasa with Radha as opposed to other relationships.

 

 

Heart over head ?

 

is that a shastric quote ?

 

all of my experience and study tells me the opposite,

heart is easily confused,therefore proper

siddhanta is required otherwise your "heart"

or "feelings" are following what ? your conceptions

or misconceptions ?

 

"our philosophy is one and different"

you should have said "My" instead of "our",

 

in my understanding acintya bhedabheda has to do

with the nature of jiva tatva,and also the nature

of God's personality in relation to god's energy,

as far as Radha,Krsna, and the other expansions

we are told they are identical,not one and different,

one and the same.

 

"radhika always defeats krsna"

 

what does that mean ?

 

clearly you have many misconeptions regarding

gaudiya siddhanta, I take the instructions

of Guru,Shastra and sadhu, which states unequivocaly

'Radha and Krsna are identical,they are ONE person

in two FORMS", not one person becoming two persons.

 

so the concept of radha defeating krsna is meaningless

as it has nothing to do with reality only with some type of sentimental confusion.

 

which of course is the problem with those who insist

that manjari seva is the goal and sum and substance

of gaudiya siddhanta,not having realized that(experienced that) ,they simply

repeat shastra not realizing they are clueless about the actual import of what they quote.

 

 

It is common sense,but due to desire for position rather then desire to give love they follow the path which

will ultimately extricate them from that desire,i.e. manjari

goal oriented sadhana,instead of bhakti oriented sadhana.

 

By common sense I mean that Radha,Krsna,and the Gopis

we are told are all one and the same, Radha and the Gopis

are hladini saktis,they are the forms Krsna takes to enjoy,but make no mistake about it, they are all ONE person,

not many.

 

So using common sense,which by the way is what Bhaktivedanta

Swami called Bhakti,we can understand that Radha ,Krsna,

and the Gopis and their rasa is not what it seems,

they are one person,not many,not one and different,

one and the same, this is pure unadultered MONO THEISM,

anything else is POLY THEISM,and a contamination within

Gaudiya siddhanta,

 

this contamination occurs due to many reasons, but either

way it is present in many who claim authority in Gaudiya

siddhanta,it is simply an anartha

which needs to be removed.

 

Vrndavana is the land of devotion,the land of bhakti,

dedication over self reward,giving of love over

attainment of position, the idea of manjari seva

is an outlet for those who desire position over

bhakti,nothing more.

 

they are told "if you want the highest possible position that a jiva can attain, that is a manjari, a little girl

who may not actually engage in the intimate lila, but

they can assist in some small way"

 

for the sincere soul,this is not acceptable,they do not

want the "highest possible attainment" ,they want

the closest form of intimacy ,if the highest attainment

is not the most intimate they do not want it.

 

but for those who seek position above intimacy,they will follow the path of manjari seva,why ? becasue they

are told that is the highest possible attainment.

 

Is it in fact the most intimate ?

 

no,hardly, a little girl is not the most intimate

rasa you can have Radha and the gopis,Krnsa and the Gopis

are all one and the same person, the Gopi's are the enjoying aspect of Krsna, How can they enjoy Rasa with a little girl ?

 

this is common sense, but due to anarthas,poly theism,

desire for position, etc, the truth is hidden

from the unqualified,they are led down the path of purification, they need to be freed from the desire

to exploit rasa lila by attainment of position,

tranformed to become desirous of giving what is wanted regardless

of so called "highest possible attainment".

 

this is common sense, Radha is Krsna as enjoyer,

the Gopis are all Her bodily forms, they are Krsna's

womanly forms,they are not "other" persons, their rasa

between each other needs to be understood with that in mind,otherwise you do not see the truth of Vrndavana,

and real service to their desire is not understood,

Real service to their desire means serving Radha's desire for

rasa, As jiva goswami states every liberated jiva lives with an expansion of God and engages in pastimes with

that expansion,

is the most intimate rasa you can have sakhya rasa ?

 

Radha is the enjoying aspect of Krsna,a manjari

is in sakhya rasa with Her,Krsna and Radha are one and the same, She is the form Krsna's desires for pleasure are experienced through,hladini sakti,

so again, is sakhya rasa as a manjari what Radha

wants, can Krsna satisfy Radha's desire for intimacy,

they are one person,two forms,Radha doesn't need little

girls, believe that.

[lover_soul]

I am no expert, but isn't it a fact that they don't need anyone? I mean to say, they are GOD!. So, them needing you is out of the question. They don't need you, you need them right? So whats so wrong in worshipping Him in one way over another? Whatever form you worship Him in , you get Him. Isn't it a fact that ultimately it is greed, greed for happiness and pleasure that is bhakthi?. Sat-Chit-Ananda? Know Him and you are in bliss? He never needs you, you need Him, thats why you go running after Him. Whether in form of a little girl or whatever. Is there a puzzle piece missing here?

 

[Guest guest]

lets see,um, no,no,no,and...no.

 

greed for happiness and pleasure is not the qualification,

that is the disease.

 

they are not they,they are she.

 

she needs you to overcome greed,so she doesn't have

to be around a fool.

 

you can worship in any way you like,

but that is not what is desired by "them".

what is wanted is a relationship not based

on worship but on equal respect and a relationship

of intimate love.

 

you can pretend you are a little girl

or king of the world, but the process destroys

all delusions leaving the pure unadultered

natural state of consciousness,which is free from

the desire to "serve" how we want,

instead we are left with how "they" want.

 

Greed is used in the context of greed for

hearing and chanting,not greed for the self

centered attitude of the exploitation of

bhakti for our enjoyment in a particular

way, but greed to give love in a way that will

please the beloved.

[Guest guest]

 

what is wanted is love, so yes you can approach

god in any way you like,you will not be forced to

be in a rasa you do not want, if i want to

please someone and they are thirsty and ask for a glass

of juice, and i give them water,they may drink

that water,but that is not what they want.

 

So you can do as you like,love means free will,

but if you want to please god in an intimate way,

you need to learn what she likes.

 

[lover_soul]

It makes sense that true love is the greed for giving. Thank you. I also want to say that when I read your post, I felt a vibe of bhakti running all over it. Thank you for giving me such a vibe and explaining this to me. I loved reading your post over and over again. To be honest, my spiritual consciousness is not as mature as yours, it gives me great happiness that I can find more people like you and 'ghari' over the internet.

 

[Guest guest]

you said it,true love is greed for giving,that is what

bhakti is all about,in the earlier stages people engage

in Bhakti for selfish reasons,in fact

Krsna lila is perfomed to attract people to engage

in bhakti with the promise of a reward,this reward,

eternal enjoyment at the highest level is the motivation

for 99.9999% of people who begin the practice

of Bhakti yoga, they seek liberation from suffering,

eternal life,happiness etc, which is only natural

but it is not the ultimate result of Bhakti,

The result is you become involved with God,

as you would with a person you fall in love with,

that is what bhakti turns into, at first there

is motivation for selfish reasons, that gives way

to knowledge of our intimate connection

with God at all times,then we no longer feel

the need to engage in Bhakti as a tool

for attainment,attainment seen in the light

of full knowledge is like a fish worrying

about attaining a place to swim.

 

Pure bhakti is free from all worries,VaiKuntha,

NoWorries, then, instead of trying to

perfect ourselves in order to gain a place

at the table, we see the truth of our

eternal soul mate who is with us at all times,

our desire for some type of position

or attainment is then seen as some kind of

Madness,our real attainment is in

our ability to relate as an equal

and as a friend and lover.