cloning

[theist 1]

Well this hellish culture is preparing to introduce cloned animal flesh into the market. I cannot keep up with all this madness. I can't even understand it.

 

The obvious question this raises is when does the soul enter during the cloning process.

 

What strange karma to be born as a cloned animal destined for slaughter.

 

This type of question is becoming important for all preachers and practictioners to grasp the basics of I feel.

 

Another reason I wish Bhaktivedanta Institute would open up a Q&A forum. But I am confident someone here can help me. Please.

[Guest guest]

I can explain to as a scientist. In cloning, we use living cells only and not dead cells. (Man has not advanced to that level of playing God...thank God). So the question of soul entering the cell is not there. It is already having life in it. Cells are cultured in labs for different purposes. Sometimes fetal human cells, or embryonic cells are cultured for different study and they are taken from living people sometimes. we cannot go exactly by the definitions of gita or Bagavatha. If my cells are cultured for a medical research purpose, and at the end of experiment if they die, what does it mean. I am still living. So whre comes the question of soul. The soul of me is in my consciousness in my living body, while the soul in the cells that left me for some purpose died?

I personally have cultured my blood cells in lab while undergoing training to identify the chromosomal abberations. THese cells cannot survive for more than 3 days. To study the chromosomes, I fixed them at a particular time for further research. So how would I explain this based on Gita or Bagavatham. This is something like a brahmachari or any man wasting his semen with live spermatozoan cells which are capabble of producing another life and hence they have soul in it. This is the reason it is mentioned that one should preserve the semen until marriage and it should be used for producing children in proper family life. But does anyone follow that? even if they dont sleep with women until marriage. I am a follower of Krishna and chant His name all the time. My answer would be is everything is play of Krishna for us to realise Him at different level.

So when it comes to eatiing the flesh, it may be a different story. Bbut basically everything starts with soul of the cell. Organs can be cultured in laboratory and in fact the frog legs what people eat are cultured in laboratory and people are trying to commericialise that technique, so that they dont have to kill frogs, bbut keep cloning the legs and multiply only the legs.

Well its all Krishna's game for different people to realise Him by different means.

Cetainly I am against eating the flesh.

[theist 1]

 

I can explain to as a scientist. In cloning, we use living cells only and not dead cells. (Man has not advanced to that level of playing God...thank God). So the question of soul entering the cell is not there. It is already having life in it.

 

 

In speaking of just an ordinary cell, I have come to believe that each cell(skin cell liver cell etc) is an individual jiva with its own peculiar karma. And that there can be no cell growth and duplication without the presence of the lifeforce which is the jiva.

 

In the case of an animal or human being then there would be trillions of separate jivas making up the form as cells but only one that is under the illusion of being the whole form.

 

Actually I am curious on this topic but feel it may be over my head. I guess this might be the first point I need to get clear on.

 

What is your opinion on the above?

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

[Guest guest]

Each cell is a separate entity when it is separated from the mother organism, yet maintaiins the whole nature of mother organism. The cluster of cells that make up a single multicellular organism again forms a single unit and in this case each cell performs different functions at different regions. Some cells dont produce certain enzymes (biomolecular catalysts to promote biochemical reactions in body for normal function and growth).

So everything comes from a single entity, and when separated from wholesome it becomes another entity and the initial entity that got parted some of its cells still remains wholesome.

This is what is God. ALl we souls came from Him and yet He is there in all of us performing all the functions. He is the one who makes one group of people realise Him at spiritual level (such as Jagadgur Sankara, Ramanuja, Madwa, Chaithanya, Prabhupaadha, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Vivekandha), He is the one who makes another group realise His beauty at scientific level especially the life science researchers like me, or Dr. Watson and crick who discovered DNA structure, or Edward Jenner, or Alexander Flemming, or Koch's who proposed the famous Kochs postulate which identifies a pathogen causing organism, etc etc.

 

He is the one who has given this wide intelligence in different set of people irrespective of nationality or religion or caste. Some people look at Him from one point and another at another level. But both reveals Him how beautiful He is. I work with embryos to analyse how a particular drug cause defects in fetus before the birth out of which congenital heart malformations occur in kids, how sometimes fetus get aborted etc etc.

I once felt, is it ok to work on these being a vegetarian, and a follower of Krishna. Got confused for few days, could not get answer from anyone clearly, then I read Gita several times. I as scienctist researcher, analysed carefully what Krishna says in Gita, especially in 18 chapter He clearly indicated that the intelligence that is given to us should be fully utilised and one who remains lazy lives in ignorance.

He has already determined the life time of every organism, every cell, and its purpose of life. ( I dont support non-vegetarianism saying that animals are meant for eating, I am aginst this argument which is stupid).

So, after understanding Gita from my perspective and from scientific perspective, in my opinion, He gives us the brain primarily to reveal His different beauty in different forms.

Working with cell is wonderful when you analyse it at molecular level. We come to know how beautifully the complex pathways are intertwined. One cannot survive without another. If something is lost, something else compensates and makes the organism survive. I started loving Krishna in every cell of my body after I came to medical research. We as scientists are kids and will be ever kids in understanding Him even thhrough science as its a never ending process.

Some Foolish scientists and arrogant doctors may claim that there is no God, because they feel they are unpacking nature. Its not true and I never agree with such people.

Actually such people are ignorant who does not see the magnificient God in every little things. We cant even think of creating a single cell with all its complicated but well intertwined biochemical and genetic pathways of network that carries its function from generation to generation.

 

Science without religion is foolishness. Religion without proper appreciation of basic life scienc research calling these as mundane activity is foolishness, because both just reveal the beauty of My Lord in detail.

 

Shyam

[Guest guest]

In cloning, we use stem cells not skin cells. Stem cells are the ones which can turn into any type of cells they wish.

 

[theist 1]

I'll have to spend much time with your post Shyam before I can respond. I lack even a high school education in biology so please be a little patient and check back.

 

I do agree with your approach to the scientific investigation. Krsna is everywhere, the macrocosmic and the microcosmic and surely His ways areastounding and wonderful in every field.

 

The problem comes in philosophy, science and religion when we give up the childs nature in inquiry and stop short of Krsna. Sometimes I will catch tv program or something on the cosmos or quantum physics or whatever and I can see the childlike enthusiasm for questioning and learning in these big Phd.s. Even though I really don't understand most of what they say their enthusiasm to know is infectious.

 

 

Oh, I just used skin cells to try and different them and other cells from each other.

 

Talk to you later,

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

Dear Guest,

 

I am going to assume you work in this field of stem cell research since you seem to be an authority on it.

 

I think it fascinating. I also think it a time-bomb.

 

Anything else we engineer we pretty much &)&*-up. Take vegetables. They may be resistant to bugs or not ripen until shipped. But they are not wholesome and don't mature well.

 

I'm thinking any advancement in this stem-cell research will lead to disaster.

 

Sure, they may justify it by saying it has medical value and what not, but what about the issue of copyright and patents ont his stuff?

 

What about military applications?

 

The myth surrounds the glory of deciding our destiny by design. What is there that humanity has done so far that justifies such godlike assumptions? Yes, just dabbling in this can have irrevocable results on many levels.

 

Why are you doing this and what do you hope to achieve?

[Guest guest]

Here's a quick laymans guide to cloning:

 

Overview:

 

It is unfortunate that the term "cloning" refers to three very different procedures with three very different goals. It is also unfortunate that the first thought many people have when they hear the term is of horror movies which have showed the creation of human monsters or of armies of superhuman soldiers. Reality of cloning is very different.

 

The three different types of "cloning" are:

 

Embryo cloning: This is a medical technique which produces monozygotic (identical) twins or triplets. It duplicates the process that nature uses to produce twins or triplets. One or more cells are removed from a fertilized embryo and encouraged to develop into one or more duplicate embryos. Twins or triplets are thus formed, with identical DNA. This has been done for many years on various species of animals; only very limited experimentation has been done on humans.

 

Adult DNA cloning (a.k.a. reproductive cloning): This technique which is intended to produce a duplicate of an existing animal. It has been used to clone a sheep and other mammals. The DNA from an ovum is removed and replaced with the DNA from a cell removed from an adult animal. Then, the fertilized ovum, now called a pre-embryo, is implanted in a womb and allowed to develop into a new animal. As of 2002-JAN, It had not been tried on humans. It is specifically forbidden by law in many countries. There are rumors that Dr. Severino Aninori has successfully initiated a pregnancy through reproductive cloning. It has the potential of producing a twin of an existing person. Based on previous animal studies, it also has the potential of producing severe genetic defects. For the latter reason alone, many medical ethicists consider it to be a profoundly immoral procedure when done on humans.

 

Therapeutic cloning (a.k.a. biomedical cloning): This is a procedure whose initial stages are identical to adult DNA cloning. However, the stem cells are removed from the pre-embryo with the intent of producing tissue or a whole organ for transplant back into the person who supplied the DNA. The pre-embryo dies in the process. The goal of therapeutic cloning is to produce a healthy copy of a sick person's tissue or organ for transplant. This technique would be vastly superior to relying on organ transplants from other people. The supply would be unlimited, so there would be no waiting lists. The tissue or organ would have the sick person's original DNA; the patient would not have to take immunosuppressant drugs for the rest of their life, as is now required after transplants. There would not be any danger of organ rejection.

 

 

You may find it interesting to note that the first type of cloning listed above is what Shyama is talking about. The other two types which use the same technique are quite different in that the DNA from the Ovum is removed and DNA from the animal being cloned is inserted. So, certainly in this case it's a bit more complex - ie. an Ovum has it's DNA removed and that is replaced by the DNA from another cell. The DNA on it's own is unable to reproduce and the Ovum stripped of it's DNA is also unable to divide - but uniting the two - life goes on! This is analogous to a heart transplant - the heart on it's own cannot reproduce and the body devoid of a heart is also unable to function, but when joined, life goes on and offspring can be generated with the appropriate partner. When someone asked Srila Prabhupada about heart transplants he said it is analogous to someone sitting in a chair and standing up while a new chair is provided for them. If this is the case then the soul is present somewhere within the ovum and remains there while the DNA transplant is performed.

 

The basic concept to understand is that wherever there is life, there is consciousness.

 

My own opinion about medical research is that there is fault in everything in the material sphere. If one is trying to do good and help others then it is positive even though one could look at many of the specifics and find fault in it. So many animals are used in medical research. But remember that the advances in medicine and science also extend the life of Krsna's devotees and everyone benefits from that.

 

What endeavor is there that cannot be found to be lacking in some way or harmful to other living beings or the environment? Devotees must move forward in life and try live an exemplary life of dedication and love. But of course, every step is covered with fault and violence - so what to do? The answer is to pray with a sincere heart and try your best to develop love for Krsna and his devotees.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

 

[Guest guest]

If you read shyama's posts more carefully you wouldn't have to assume what type of research he is doing or what the goal here.

 

I'll make it easy for you and copy it here:

 

"I work with embryos to analyse how a particular drug cause defects in fetus before the birth out of which congenital heart malformations occur in kids, how sometimes fetus get aborted etc etc."

 

In other words the goal of the research is to help prevent fetal abortions, congenital heart disease etc. - sounds good to me!

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

 

[Guest guest]

Guest and Audarya-lila,

 

Again, the 'ol this is for your benefit pitch. Same 'ol song. Same 'ol attitude of dominance and control to deal with problems. Never mind what works… we can move mountains!

 

What works is prevention and harmony for the order of life!

 

But that's not good enough: Here, step aside, et me show you what we're trying to do here because I'm an authority. This is the attitude.

 

People are messing with things they don't understand! It will lead to no good. You know it will be exploited by the powers that be.

 

People may feel this way about atom bombs: I work hard at detterence and I'm a peacelover and well-wisher and so on. So one talks like this till everything is finnished... and then it's all forgotten in the aftermath. this is history... this is the history lesson... with few exceptions.

 

Science and technology has been used usccessfully in ustaining many infant lives, yet down the hall other scientists are using the same technology to abort. Things do not balance out... the world is not making it.

 

So all this so-called attempt to gain knowledge is simply an unashamed attempt to control the world.

 

There is a Vedic process for living. How are you gonna justify these really extreme and perverted attempts at control to Krsna?

 

How do you justify this brown air we breathe? Industry? Economics? Social welfare?

 

Yes, you can see it that way. Then, down the road the quality of life is less fortunate by those who have inherited what we left.

[theist 1]

I have started a thread that I can't keep up with. But I will read with great interest and inject a question here and there.

 

Q.s For a human embryo to form, wouldn't it take the presence of a soul destined to be a human embryo.

 

I can't see how any form could form without a specific soul there causing it's formation.

 

Also it may be that soul's destiny to experience life as a human embryo being experimented on.

 

Can this really be supported by Krsna conscious even though they may be some apparent benefit to other humans?

[Guest guest]

Dear Guest,

 

It would be far better if you signed your posts so that people can address you personally and distinguish you from others who post anonymously.

 

Knowledge is always a two edged sword - it can be used for good or bad. Every move you make has consequences and can be seen in a negative light. Do you drive a car? Do you eat packaged foods? Do you have electricity in your home? You obviously use a computer - what about when it ends up in a landfill?

 

I agree with the basic premise that we should tread as softly as possible upon the earth and try our very best to do good in all ways. I am a trained biochemist and I work in the cancer diagnostics industry. The products that we manufacture help pathologists in their diagnosis of disease and help them to select the most appropriate therapeutic intervention to help each individual patient. I happen to think that this is a good thing and I not only enjoy my work, but I also feel good about the overall objective of the company and those who are employed here.

 

Having said the above I will also freely admit that the company uses toxic chemicals which add to the polution problems, animals are used to generate polyclonal antibodies used in various diagnostic assays, animal products such as bovine serum albumin and fetal clone are used in formulations and in media used in cell culture, various plastics are used in packaging materials - and on and on and on.... Nothing in this material world is perfect or without fault. Every breath you take you inhale microorganisms which are killed by your own body. Eating and evacuating is another problem - do you eat only organically produced foods? Are all the packages that you recieve these foods in 'earth friendly'? What happens to your bodies waste? What happens to the garbage you generate which isn't classified as recyclable. What of recycling? Do you think that recycling doesn't come with it's own cost to our environment?

 

I drive a hybrid car (with an electric and a gas motor) because I felt it was a good choice environmentally. But it still polutes the environment.

 

Anyway, I hope you get my point. There are many people and they all have different talents and interests. Ask the next heart attack victim you meet who benefited from a bypass or a transplant what they think about medical research. Ask the next breast cancer victim who is still alive because of early detection and proper therapeutic intervention what she thinks about medical research.

 

My father has had serveral heart attacks and thanks to good medical intervention he is still with us today. He has also had skin cancer and has benefited from having a good oncologist. I suspect if you get old enough to start having serious health issues you may change your tune with regard to the overall industry.

 

I suspect we can agree to disagree and be civil about it. I respect anyone who cares about the environment - I do as well. The issues are not black and white and there are no easy answers. From a devotional perspective the best answer is to always think about, talk about and hear about Sri Krsna and try to mold your life in such a way that all your actions are conducive to developing your love and devotion.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[Guest guest]

HI Theist,

For the soul to be determined to enter into human embryo and develop into a child and grow up is agaiin predetermined by Krishna in my opinion. Death of embryos is something a curse on Kali yuga which I read somewhere(Sorry forgot the authentic quote).

In scientific sense, in response to another question in this series, if cloning has any disastrous effects, As of now I can only say, we can imagine any disastrous effect probably which may be in effect after 100 years or atleast 50 years. But to the extent we see in movies and TV serials, its not that easy and nnot just mixing of some chemicals in test tubes to bring a clone.

Its quite a tough process and takes lot of time and money. Since it involves lot of ethical issues most countries including US banned human cloning. For countries like India we dont have to worry, as its very very expensive in terms of US standard itself.

Scientific research involves numerous failures and the success is only handful and it is this handful of success that keeps us alive when we fall sick, in the form of medicines. Any one who has taken some allopathic medicine at some time in his/her life even if its just a paracetamol or some antibiotic, or any other life saving drug cannot say that animals and cells should not be involved in scientific research.

Then in that case, all of us have to just live in forest and suffer and suffer and die with diseases, since not all of us have the ability to perform mysterious yogas and tapas to keep ourselves free of diseases like the olden day rishis or like Swaminarayana or Sankaracharya or Prabhupaadha. I beleive even swami prabhupaadha must have taken medicines since he belongs to 20th century. There is nnothing wrong in my humble opinion when its for a good cause of saving a life, but to come to this stage of saving the life, the medicine has to undergo numerous trials in animals before it comes to human trials. this is how medical field improved.

Unfortunately there are some crazy scientists also who try to do unethical work but most of them dont succeed. Its hard to get things accepted in scientific field to get published.

Regarding your enthusiasm in learning physics and trying to understand when yu watch discovery channel, honestly there is nothing wrong. Even a saint in my opinion tries to learn something in science, i feel there is nothing wrong, because for that individual to gain some enthusiasm in trying to find the truth or to know the truth behind the mystery, Krishna is behind anything when one wants to find the mystery behind truth. From Sankara to Prabhupaadha and for any other religous leaders going to come in future, Krishna is behind them and helped them in uncovering the mystery of Him through spirituality. In the same way, for people like Edward Jenner and all other scientists same Krishna is behind them in finding the mystery of the nuances our Lord created in every little things so that by unraveling the mystery, that would help them in survival by prolonging the life and by prolonging the life in course of time they understand Krishna through religious spirituality also. Imagine, once the normal life span of humans was only 27 in the early part of 20th century, while now it has drastically increased. In olden days many children used to die at young age, due to lack of treatment of disease, but now, one can survive and prolong the life even with cancer. Ultimately everyone has to die which is for sure.

For that matter, we should not stop learnning and gain our knowledge in understanding God through science also. Then it is insulting Krishna in my opinion.

If you carefully observe onething you would agree with me.

Research in medicine is going on since time immemorial which you can read from any encyclopedia books in library. At different times,some major scientific contributions were there that has led to important further discoveries and identification which helped in human survival. Not only in western countries, but every country has its own system of medicine for example in India they used herbs which they identified as poisonous or not by giving them to cats and dogs or observing them whether they eat or not. So in my opinion, Krishna descended or supported all those big and small scientists to reveal something of His creation so that the short lived humans of Kali yuga can have better understanding of Him.

On the other hand in the same way, in the field of spirituality also at every time, when ever there was and there is adharma Krishna was descending down in Human form from time immemorial for people to realise the truth about Him through other means who are not given the knowledge of understanding His scientific nuances. Lets take only the Kali yuga. If I am right in my listing, It starts from Budda, then Jesus, Sankara, Ramanuja, Madwa, Ragavendra Swamy, Chaithanya, Swami Narayana, and finally now we ended up with Swami Prabhupaadha. ( I have missed out many great saints to give just examples).

Each Medical scientist and Religious scientists (Saints) basically explore His magnificient form and help others. According to the requirement of time in a particular place, He gave the philosophical explanation through these people (saints in religion) which was accepted at every time and still living among people. In science too he brought different philosophies at different time and some of them were proved wrong or altered and improved and yet some old traditions have still value since they form the base. In religion too, each saint, explained Gita and Bagavatha as per their intelligence given by Krishna that is required at that time and hence each has its own importance. But basically the truth is same and everyone is exploring the same mystery behind the big truth. This is why a sane person should never fight for religion and compare different saints and their philosophies. Everything is important as per their time value and many more may come in future. We do not know another Albert Einstein may come or Watson or Jenner to come and may even disprove of what earlier people said and may profound new theories and understanding. Like wise after 100 or 200 years another saint after prabupaadha may come sent by Krishna who will have entirely a new approach to Gita that would be suitable much than all the earlier ones for that particular time.

 

To conclude, Scientists who does research for Human development and Religious Scientists (Saints) who does research on spiritual development are both sent by Krishna to help us understand Him better by all means. One thing I am very sure of as scientist is He will never make us to give life force to a dead cell. that He will always keep for Himself. If someone gives thhat life force to all the dead cells, then it must be only Kalki.

Shyam

[Guest guest]

Well when I have mentioned embryos, I dont work on human embryos, but on chick and mouse embryos. A soul is a soul irresepctive of human or bird or mouse or fish. To be born in which body, is specified by Krishna which also includes the life span of the soul to reside in that particular body be it chicken or Human. Why do we use bird an animlal embryos to understand mechanism of drug action. It is because the development is highly conserved both in initial organ patterning which is basically governed at the molecular level. The proteins called crystallins responsible for the transparency of our eye lens is the same in mouse and us and it has more than 98 % simillarity in other organisms. When we try to understand development it is very obvious and clear that the most important things are basically the same and differs only in minor percentage and that minor percentage creates variation.

Coming to ethical issues between Science and Religion, how a strict vegetarian who worships Krishna from every since I know myself can involve hhimself in killing the embryos for the sake of human development? I had this question in mind and got cleared after reading Gita as I mentioned earlier.

 

For a particular kind of heart malformation in human fetuses and children born with such malformations caused by a particular drug ( for my ethical reasons I cannot reveal my results) I work on that particular drug say drug A that if taken during pregnancy what happens. All along there were controversial results out of which people were not sure of the association between the malformation and the drug. In my rigorous research under my professor, we found that this particular drug causes the heart not to develop if taken on 12 day of pregnancy, and causes heart to develop with malformation if taken between 13 to 18 day of pregnancy and does not cause malformation if taken beyond this point. Previously this was not known out of which many mothers who get accidentally pregnant either ended up in abortions or gave birth to a malformed child that dont survive for long afte birth. To come to this conclusion of finding out how they affect and when they affect in the time of pregnancy I used about 400 chicken embryos at different times in the course of 2 years and finally we came with the outcome that is going to help all the future mothers who are under the treatment of that drug A for their disorder. So the information generated will help the doctors in planning the treatment so that even if a woman accidentally gets pregnant she may not produce a malformed child. When a normal child is born, the chance the child can chant Krishna's name and understand Him is more than an abnormal child. So intially when i was not happy of doing the research primarily for employing the embyos, later after careful reading of Gita several times, I realise that Krishna gave me this intelligence to understand His tailoring of organism at micro molecular level so that my intelligenc will help others in survival. At one time I felt like leaving this, but I am sure Krishna would have got angry with me for not completing the work for which He gave me the intelligence. He decides everything and He acts in everything. He is only one who controls everything including the life time of every soul to survive in each cell, be it my own cell which i remove from my body to culture in lab for chromosomal study, or my whole body as a whole. the life force or the soul belongs to Him to handle in the way He wishes and He predetermines when to leave the cell or the body as per Gita and reenter another body or just a single cell or a worm or a monkey or another Human.

My duty is to reveal His beauty and Mystery behind it so that it helps for betterment of society, like how Swami Prabhupaadha's ascribed duty by Krishna was to insemminate the knoledge of Krishna at spiritual level, I am understanding His beauty at scientific level. Fortunately, I am also religiously inclined, so I am able to appreciate His beauty in both the fields.

We are nobody to worry about the fate of soul entering or leaving one cell or a organism. It is His Job and we cant do anything about it.

As far as possible if we are going to use it positively its fine, not by eating flesh for our physical gratification.

Shyam

[Guest guest]

Audarya-lila,

 

"Knowledge is always a two edged sword - it can be used for good or bad. "

 

Of coarse I agree. But there is a big difference in theory and practice.

 

I participate in this society. It is near impossible not to be implicated in the system somehow. But these advantages you tought are the end of fish and trees and so many other forms of devastation. We have desires and we justify them.

 

Prabhupada said this changing is our disease. We should first find out what life is about. When we do that, we will find we have everything we need.

 

All the problems come with this technology. It allows people who can aford it to encroach more on others. It just takes a little common sense to see that we are destroying ourselves with this technology. We don't know how to live and yet we are so busy adjusting things according to our whiim all in the realm of impermanance. We spend time making machines and maintaining them. Self-created duties.

 

Will disease and death ever be stopped? If so, how do you issue a patent on that? Do you think it will just be for everyone? Medicine now is unaffordable for most.

 

In the 50's machines were theoretically gonna liberate people. The reality is quite different.

 

This whole promise of a brighter future is a bluff. We are still waiting for the edification of man.

 

My position is that even if you don't abuse, someone else will abuse the knowledge and techniques... that indirectly makes you an accessory. Indeed, we are all implicated in the things we do to survive. And just about all the mess we make is considered worthwhile

 

If people can be responsible with the power accrued from manipulating matter, there is no problem. But let's get real. Our technology is probing places that are best left alone.

 

Maybe one day we'll figure out we need those trees and clean air. So much trouble could be avoided if we just leave creation to the creator.

 

Don't you think there is a sense of false proprietorship to assume the right to make such research with a goal to adjust as you see fit?

 

You are engaged in a business. You people are not spending money simply to help people. You are hoping to milk the golden cow.

 

This is another way big business is controlling our lives. They can afford the research. We can't. They patent all the processes. We pay out the *^()*!

 

And the research was probably paid with tax payer money anyway.

[Guest guest]

Yes research is funded by tax payers money, but for the betterment again what can we do. If someone is against research then when he fall sick he should not take medicines. the whole socieity is sort of intertwined in some way, everyone is contributing to something. One person identifies something for a use, some other person misuse it. It is not the fault of the person who identified it. telephone was invented with a purpose to communicate. Same telephone is also used for telephony sex and to threaten people. Can we blame alexander graham Bell for this. No.

Coming to patenting and making money out ofit, well some scientist and drug companies do that because if they patent it and get money, they further employ it in future reserach which is agin for development. Not all research are patented like the one I mentioned as my work. Some technologies are patented, out of which the individual or company makes money, may be thats something he or she worked hard for. As I mentioned earlier, there is gradatiion in every society and class of people. I dont feel happy or sad about my results, just dedicate to Krishna whatever I get. Albert einsteiin when offered a fat salary in a university he denied saying that he does not require that much for him and his wife. But everybody is not like that and this mentality is also governed in that individual by Krishna only for some reasons may be to maintain different levels in society.

Its always easy for people to say that scientists always justify their results. Yes one needs a spiritual eye to understand God in Science too. If someone is against scientific research, that person from that moment should stop using fan, TV, phone, and should not go to doctor when he or she falls sick.

[Guest guest]

Audarya, I'm not getting just down on you. It is the system.

 

Again, you are speaking theory. I am against cars. It is hard to function without one because society is set up that way.

 

I would like to see all this so-called advancement finnished. I would like to get back to the earth and simple living. Again, I can flippantly say that... no so easy to do.

 

Yes, Graham Bell is responsible for what he did... same as you and I. Responsible or not does not change my point. Did he do such a great thing by making it convienient to exchange more trivia faster? The tv has potential. But what do you get from it?

 

Computers and telephones and satillites have now made it possible to follow people round the world and there will soon be nowhere to hide. Is this progress? Maybe in a rascal's terms. Graham Bell set all this in motion. It looked great as it began. Now the picture is much more sinister.

 

My point is that such research can "easily" backfire. And because of the depth of your filandering, it could get real ugly.

 

Some people have the common sense to not go some places. Some see no problem with making bombs. Others would never do it. We make our choices and live with them.

 

You are a devotee. You know the snares of illusion. All these so-called solutions just create more problems. I believe Prabhupada said that.

 

"If someone is against research, then he should not participate."

 

I am not participating in such research. I think you should not too. We are not talking preference here. We are talking about the building blocks of life. Don't be so whimsical.

 

You seem content just to live for the present by your research... knowing full well that you are a good person and you're not responsible for what others do. Sounds like a man with an agenda.

 

You say you're not happy or sad, you just dedicate the results. But I think right or wrong and the potential for abuse is far more important than your pleasure. I believe you are dovetailing your activities. Not that Krsna wants it.

 

Your employer wants it and you can give it to Krsna?

 

So it's not just you. It is the system.

 

No one is free to just be. It seems people think their worth is in helping the suits exploit the world.

[Guest guest]

Just imagine how it would be, if everyone thinks like you. You and I wont be chatting over internet. We dont know each others faces but we are talking and sharing ideas. The negative side of research is far lesser than the positive sides. Every yuga has its own significance. we do not know how the previous kali yuga in the previous Maha yuga existed. It would have much more than this and finally ended up after which Mahavishnu would have started another Maha Yuga to which we belong. Yu and I cannot stop it, neither its wise to feel that only our thinking is rationale and all others are stupid.

The same philosophy of Gita can be interpreted in different ways according to the society and century. Interpretations keeps varying from ages as per the time requirements. NOne can claim actually from Sankara to Prabhupaadha that their way of interpretation alone is right, because in future some more Paadaa's will come and give their interpretations. YOu may feel that I am in illusion to talk like this. I have my way of understanding things after researching it several times be it Gita or Developmental biology. Krishna is the one who gave me this brain. I dont harm society, do my best whatever He ascribed to me.

Imagine, according to Gita, if our Swami Prabhupaadha denied scientific advancement calling it as illusion, then he would not have landed in US, because he utilised the advancement of science to travel, to print his books through which he took Gita and Bagavatham to west. I feel happy that Krishna made him do that to take my country's treasure and made it available to world for many people to follow and realise Krishna. Honestly whether you or even he accepts it or not, its because of advancement of science that his interpretation of Gita now travelled to west to the extent we are now discussing over internet.

If one does not want it or get confused calling it as illusion, well in my humble opinion, they should stop browsing to leave these illusions and go to forest and lead the simple earthy life eating the fruits and tying the leaves. Because the fabric that are colored, those dyes are basically tested for their toxicity only on animals. So in that case, a real krishna conscious person who talks and call everything as illusion and calls scientists as mundane idiots, should not wear any clothes and be naked. I am sorry, even our Swamiji is part of this illusion then and he is not totally KC for this matter.

The kind of people you expect to be away from these advancement of science which some KC people called as illusion are actually living in Himalayas even now, who dont wear any clothes also on them and just remain naked in that snow clad mountains.. They are certainly better saints than anyone I know, because they dont even eat properly and survive on yogic power.

Shall all of us go to Himalayas and try that.

I dont think our Swamiji wanted that from us. Even Krishna does not want it and He will not give all of us that power to be like that, then He can't have fun. the world will remain like Satya Yuga with all the rishis everywhere and no production. I dont think Krishna gets any thrill out of it all the time, thats why HE created Kali yuga and making people to realise Him through all means. when at one stage all these exceeds, to the extent that they start acting like God, then He will finish off the story.

Shyam

[Guest guest]

"Just imagine how it would be, if everyone thinks like you."

 

Well, there is a general mindset groups share. How aweful it would be to just leave the world alone. That is certainly a radical idea.

 

As far as your interpretation comments, the Bhagavatam says this about the population in general. (I don't have access to it to quote you). ... that people are misguided, always come to the wrong conclusions, etc. Here you are arguing for the re-engineering of our very selves. God took His shot. Now, just see what I can do! Disease and death? Not while I'm around.

 

You say you and I cannot stop it. For one thing I am not doing it. You are.

 

And for another thing, it can be stopped if people decide they don't want it. You can act, I can also act. I am acting now. I didn't just let these posts go without response. That would be quiet complicity. Our Vedic wisdom says if you know, you must act. How Krsna criticized the Kuru elders for not standing up to Duryodhana. And what was the result for not doing so?

 

"Imagine, according to Gita, if our Swami Prabhupaadha denied scientific advancement calling it as illusion… "

 

For one thing, you just don't go in and level everything unless you're an army. Prabhupada had all kinds of tolerances. He didn't ask us to do what we couldn't. He probably wouldn't have had to success he did if he advocated shutting all the machines off. People would think him crazy.

 

Prabhupada saw the addictions of western man and he made concessions... lots of them. It doesn't mean he approved or that he even thought it benefitted man. He noted man's determination and preoccupation with self-created duties and worked with that. But he was here to change that mentality. Make no mistake about that.

 

He didn't see it as all evil. But this is the practical result of material activities. Take your example of Edison. Everyone thought it a great idea at the time. And it worked well - for us - for awhile. The American Indians might not think so. Edisons motive may have been pretty benign. Perhaps he just wanted to talk to someone in California. I can't fault him for that. But the result a few short years after this adventure and the world is about to be inslaved through spying using computers and satellites, etc.

 

So it all comes down to this. People are not satisfied spiritually or they don't even know spiritual subjects. They have to use their energy somehow, so it is directed at pampering the body. The irony is our solutions just make bigger messes. This is histroy, then and now. It is evidence. It is practical. It is the result.

 

Prabhupada used what was already there and he used everything for Krsna - that was his genius. Now, given all the airplanes and all the people, who is serving Krsna with the same technology?

 

Prabhupada dovetailed. It doesn't mean he advocated airplanes.

 

Prabhupada had no problem utilizing things that way because of his advanced learning and submission. You and I cannot imitate that. We offer our innane thoughts.

 

Krsna says the demons are engaged in horrible, unbenificial works meant to destroy the world. Now you put technology in the hands of a demon and you get what we have now.

 

My point is that it is almost certain that any technology will also be used for bad these days by unscroupulous people who consider their power, wealth and influence to be life's goal.

 

It is irresponsible to facilitate this false proprietorship and material enjoying spirit. But, hey if it gets me a paycheck...

[Guest guest]

I am going to temple right now to attend Satyanarayana Pooja as today they are performing in morning due to Lunar eclipse in evening. I will come and reply you back in evening.

The argument is going interesting and I dont want to stop it. We two make a good combination to discuss this as I see Krishna in Science and also in Spirituality and you see Krishna in Spirituality. I wish I lived during the time when Swami Prabhupaadha was there. I am sure he would have loved me for my devotion for Krishna and also for my nature in finding truth (krishna) in science too.

See u in evening

Shyam

[Guest guest]

A name would have been nice - but as you choose. This is my last post on this as I don't feel it worth the time or effort.

 

I don't think you make a coherent argument against research or advancement of technology.

 

Child mortality rates have been reduced throughout the world to almost nil due to the advancement of science and medicine - that is a fact. There are so many facts about the good that science and the advancement of knowledge do for human beings it is simply not worth discussing the issue since it is overwhelmingly true that man has benefited greatly from scientific inquiry and the applications that come from it.

 

On a side note - you are quite wrong about your assessment of biological research when you say - it is playing with the building blocks of life. Life does not come from matter and all bioligcal studies are studies of matter and its various interactions. Life means spirit, not matter. The building block of life is brahman, not carbon, oxygen or nitrogen.

 

You seem to be a very cynical person. Of course I don't know you, but I make this judgement based on your posts.

 

You have not shared what profession you are involved in. Let me tell you this though - there is fault in all human endeavors. I am not against a free market economy. To say that anyone who sells a product or charges for a service does so only for money is very pessimistic and also quite inaccurate. People are motivated by the need to be of value to others. People have an innate desire to serve - this is because it is part of our eternal nature. Having worked in the molecular biology research products industry for over 10 years and for the last six years in the diagnostics industry I have first hand experience of working with and interacting with so many professionals involved in basic research as well as applied research and development. These are not people who are motivated by exploiting others. They are incredible driven people who sincerely want to help others. They are multifaceted people like everyone else.

 

From a very practical point of view all of us make up the society in which we live. We all need each other. We need police, politicians, educators, farmers, engineers, architects, pilots - on and on and on. Each person must find a service to society that is consistent with their nature and their phyche. This is obvious. What is also obvious is that there will be good and bad people found in all professions and in all walks of life. The modes of nature spare no one.

 

You ask if Krsna wants me to be involved in the profession I am involved in. My answer is that my Guru Maharaja knows full well what my work is and I have his full blessings. Also, from a very practical point of view, what I am involved in is an industry which exists only for the purpose of helping other human beings. We provide tools to help patholigists diagnose disease and thus we help them to correctly employ appropriate and beneficial therapeutic interventions for their patients. In other words, we are in the business of saving lives and helping people to live longer and healthier lives. I think Krsna is definitely pleased with me for being involved in this.

 

Of course we are talking about what I do professionally, I also lead a devotional life and I am involved in directly trying to please Krsna by sincerely chanting his Holy Name, by serving his devotees, by hearing about him and telling others about him etc. Since I am a devotee, I of course, also tell people about Krsna in the workplace. I have pictures of Krsna in my office and when it appropriate I never miss the opportunity to help others by teaching them about Krsna both directly and indirectly.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

 

On a side note I just wanted to mention to Theist and anyone else who is intersted that understanding spiritual life is only possible by exercising the heart. Understanding does not come from philosophy, logic, reason, argument or any attempt to capture Krsna with the mind. Logic, reason and arguments are used by devotees to get people interested and to convince them of the utility of practical service. It is only through genuine heartfelt service and surrender that genuine spritual experience is possible and it is only through genuine spiritual experience that one can come to the state of being 'indifferent to all that has been heard or all that can be heard'.

 

Sridhara Maharaja once said that he had a dream that all of his knowledge was lost - all the slokas, all the philosophy, all vedanta - everything - the only thing he had left was his faith. It was a wonderfully instructive dream since our only real wealth is our faith and our only means of approaching Krsna is through faith, not by knowledge.

[REASWARAN 0]

I could not agree more. There are documented cases of humans having died with no organic damage to their bodies. If it was only that degenerating or diceased cells that cause thebody to die, these deaths cannot be explained. This is understood in totality by leading physicists today who see all too clearly that given the limited tools (senses_)that we have for seeking knowledge, it requires a jump beyond these senses to even begin to understand total reality.

[Guest guest]

To Audarya-lila-dasa...

YOu have explained very nicely what I wanted to say. So I am not continuing this argument as I too wanted to write the same to that unidentified guest...

By the way are you in Bio-industry, or Biological research like me. For the first time I come across someone in ISKON with my background. May be we can be in touch.

Shyam

[Guest guest]

"I don't think…"

 

Most people don't think much of Prabhupada or Krsna either. The fact that I can't convince you doesn't mean your right.

 

"Child mortality rates have been reduced throughout the world to almost nil…"

 

This is certainly true. But as I have said before. there are other scientists using the similar knowledge to abort babies. And when you factor in little "fact" into the social equaltion you find the fetal survival rate has dropped precipitously.

 

"Life does not come from matter and all bioligcal studies are studies of matter and its various interactions."

 

Well duh! I mean is this an argument? You define biology and see if you contradict yourself. You have reduced this to word games. We're not modifying bicycles here.

 

Oh, I'm very cynical. How can anyone look at what takes place in this ridiculous world and not be cynical? Unfortunately, people are more unconscious than conscious. No cynicism there.

 

"I am not against a free market economy…"

 

There is some truth in what you say, but it is not the last word.

 

 

For one thing, I did not say people do things only for money. But that is certainly a priority. We don't see homeless people in the position to help others.

 

People's motives are not so innocent. This is not the conclusion of scriptures. Looking at it from the larger context of selfishness, there is little debate. People are constantly adjusting this and that without even understanding what's there first. All these activities begin with the profit motive.

 

Now "officially" everyone is a good person, everyone is a patriot and everyone loves God. Ask someone how they're doing and you'll hear "fine". Everyone says this. Now an intelligent man will ask, If everyone's fine, why is the world going to hell.

 

People have desires and agendas and so on. In pursuit of these they often cheat others. There is much to be gained in the cheating process because it allows you to encroach on others. And if you can even convince the person it's good for them, they will be very pleased. This "official" service attitude has little substance.

 

And even if you have a sincere individual, he can easily be exploited. Take a blind patriot, someone who thinks "my country right or wrong". Well, the powers that be certainly know how to exploit this. You also have business suits that know how to exploit a variety of humanitarian interests. So it comes down to money again. If you don't pay, you don't play. So much for goodwill.

 

But people have no intelligence to see.

 

"From a very practical point of view all of us make up the society…"

 

I agree with your points here. But the higher duty of devotion to the supreme must be there. That is what gives meaning to the rest. In this higher service, we must be intelligent and see how our efforts are thwarted by those not so sincere. I see a problem with working for people who have no interests in higher spiritual values.

 

"I am involved in is an industry which exists only for the purpose of helping other human beings…"

 

Another pitch. Really not so blessed. If people don't pay - they don't play. So it's just business. How much do you do for people without money?

 

The rest of this is fine.

 

But you are ignoring my point: the technologies are being used by those who can afford them to encroach on others. This is the danger. This is the big picture. The rest of us are just cogs in the wheel. But you can't see that and continue what you do.

[theist 1]

I still am trying to understand something very fundemental. I may have read through the answer and not recognized it.

 

We say that the particular soul who has the karma to take a human form enters through the males semen and enters into an already existing spermatozoa and 'rides' along with it to the egg.(I'll resist the surfing jokes here) The fetus then forms. All under Krsna's direction of course.

 

So how and when does that one soul that has the karma to be the total compositite form enter? Composite form like Dolly the cloned sheep. So many souls for the cells that made up the form but only one who was there "as" Dolly.

 

Do we know?