Guest guest Report post Posted October 20, 2003 ***REFUTATION 2 : The scriptures written by our previous acaryas, the Gosvamis, are relevant to different devotees at the various stages of their spiritual development. If Srila Prabhupada has forbidden a disciple to read a particular scripture in 1969, when he was in the beginning of his devotional practice, it does not mean that that particular disciple should not read that scripture in the year 2000, when he comes to a higher stage. No, it is speculation. "Higher stage" go in following for SP - NO SPECULATION. SP forbidden a disciple to read a particular scripture for lift them in higher stage bhakti. Then yours organisation not follower SP, then no needs use name SP for own speculate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 20, 2003 ***qualities UNDER THE DIRECTION AND PROTECTION OF AN EXPERT DEVOTEE . Yes it is SP and His true followers. Who is followrs SP - it is who FOLLOWS SRILA PRABHUPADA instructions. Wery simple. Who follows spiritual mood SP, anoyher not followers SP. Of course so match people SPECULATE in name SP and sastra SP, but they not followers SP, and no expert devotees. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 20, 2003 ***One should first learn the meaning of anugatya, and than talk about following. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja cannot give anymore personal direct guidance. Govinda Maharaja - Sridhara Swami. Govinda maharaja is expert devotee? You hear who he tell about NM? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 20, 2003 ***"Yours organisation not follow SP then why you speculate in words SP? " if this is your answer you surely not follow You speculate - "then why you speculate in words SP? " You do not answer. ***you surely not follow He is bad, I am is "madhurya-prema". /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif Yes? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 20, 2003 ***"Yours organisation not follow SP then why you speculate in words SP? " if this is your answer you surely not follow " ***who is SP?, he's not your friend, have respect and say the complete name of the Acharya: ***Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada OK - His divine grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada founder acarya ISKCON. He is founder acarya GBC ISKCON and He is write spiritual books for 10 000 years for people who wont follow Lord Caitanya. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 20, 2003 ***"Anyone who faithfully hears or describes the Lord's playful affairs with the young gopis of Vrndavana will attain the Lord's pure devotional service. Thus he will quickly become sober and conquer lust, the disease of the heart." This Madhav and gaurasundara - "quickly become sober and conquer lust, the disease of the heart". /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif Yes? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Sp write - "If ONE person go in level Dhruva maharaja ALL WORLD be devotee." They try speak - " doktrine SP do not so high, I am hight." /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif "I ma more big for Thruva Maharaj" /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif Lord Brahma, Lord Siva and Dhruva maharaja do not make so match mistakes They all is pure devotee. Dhruva maharaja WAS sakama devotee but then He stay in spiritual body. This spiritual body, write SP - "like spiritual body gopis". Open folio and read. This prechings it is speculative. It speculation for own pratistha and followers. "Humble more grass" - then go and do dandavat GBC ISKCON if some Humble more grass. I am "Humble more grass" - Dhruva not pure devotee - I am.... I am more Lord Siva, Brahma and dhruva. It is not true. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Krisna-Balaram may blessing anyone stay in eternal svarupa -gopi-manjari too. Lord Siva protectior all Vrindavan. True guru may blessings you, and we may see Radha-Krisna everywhere. Person grow gradually from page for page SB, if some real conciousnes Lord Siva-Lord Brahma-Lord Vaikuntha, then he step in Goloka. but if disciples stay in material world, what needs preach - "madhurya"? PURE devotee not discriminate rasa in material level. They offenders SP too. They not understand SP. If understanding - "I am more all world." /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Ok VNN - wery well. "not be weak" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anadi 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 OBJECTION 3 : Srla NArAyaNa MahArAja says that Srila PrabhupAda’s work is unfinished <font color="red"> because he did not provide us with intimate rasika literature and methods of rAgAnuga-sAdhana.</font color> Srila PrabhupAda described his unfinished work as the fact that varnasrama-dharma had not yet been established in his Society, that sets of his books had not yet been placed in every home, that people were still going hungry within ten miles of ISKCON temples, that the Lord’s holy name had not yet been heard in every town and village, etc. This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by <font color="red"> His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa</font color> Prabhu. The following article will examine, one by one, the points madein that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. REFUTATION 3 The conception that the primary reason for Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu’s appearance in this world is to spread the yuga-dharma, nAma-saNkIrtana in every town and village, has been said to be external and incidental by Srila KRSNadAsa KavirAja in his Sri Caitanya-caritAmRta: “Just as these desires are the fundamental reason for KRSNa’s appearance whereas destroying the demons is only an incidental necessity, so for Sri KRSNa Caitanya, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, <font color="blue"> PROMULGATING THE DHARMA OF THE AGE IS INCIDENTAL </font color>.” (Sri Caitanya-caritAmRta, Adi-lIlA 4.36–37 ) “The Lord came to propagate sankirtana. <font color="blue"> THAT IS AN EXTERNAL PURPOSE</font color> , as I have already indicated.” (Sri Caitanya-caritAmRta, Adi-lIlA 4.102 ) From this evidence it is understood that Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu does not personally establish the yuga-dharma. Rather, this function is performed by Mahä-ViSNu who is present along with all other avatAras within His body, just as the killing of demons is not performed by KRSNa, but rather by MahA-ViSNu, who is present within Him. If Srila Prabhupäda’s primary work was to establish varnasrama-dharma, he would be relegated from his true position of being the servant of the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahäprabhu or RAdhA-KRSNa, to being the servant of MahA-ViSNu. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gaurasundara 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 Hmm...It is from Prabhupada? SP teach AS meditate, in as mood meditate. You understand? SP no teach sahajiya. Hello Kailasa, long time no see. Anyway, yes I know the quote is from Prabhupada, since I was quoting "Teachings of Lord Caitanya" chapter 31. However, I didn't see any basis for acting like a "sahajiya" in the quote. Srila Prabhupada is quite clear in saying that one must always meditate on the affairs of Radha and Krsna, as well as following their mood. What is your point exactly, since we seem to agree? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gaurasundara 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2003 This Madhav and gaurasundara - "quickly become sober and conquer lust, the disease of the heart". Yes? I don't know about Madhav, but I haven't conquered lust yet. I hope to do so, as the means of doing so is by constantly meditating on the love affairs of Radha and Krsna, as per all the previous quotes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anadi 0 Report post Posted October 21, 2003 OBJECTION 3 : Srla NArAyaNa MahArAja says that Srila PrabhupAda’s work is unfinished because he did not provide us with intimate rasika literature and methods of rAgAnuga-sAdhana. Srila PrabhupAda described his unfinished work as the fact that varnasrama-dharma had not yet been established in his Society, that sets of his books had not yet been placed in every home, that people were still going hungry within ten miles of ISKCON temples, that the Lord’s holy name had not yet been heard in every town and village, etc. REFUTATION 3 Part3 Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu does not appear in this world to establish varnasrama-dharma. The two causes for His descent are stated as follows: “The Lord’s desire to appear was born from two reasons: He wanted to taste the sweet essence of the mellows of love of God, and He wanted to propagate RAGA-MARGA BHAKTI , devotional service in the world on the platform of spontaneous attraction.” (Sri Caitanya-caritAmRta, Adi-lIlA 4.15–16 ) Srila PrabhupAda writes that unless one practises <font color="blue"> rAgAnuga-bhakti under the personal guidance of a perfectly realized guru</font color> , one cannot go back home to Vraja-dhAma, the eternal abode of RAdhA-KRSNa: “Everywhere in the world people worship Me according to scriptural injunctions (vaidhi-bhakti). But simply by following such regulative principles ONE CANNOT ATTAIN THE LOVING SENTIMENTS OF THE DEVOTEES IN VRAJABHUMI (vraja-bhAva).” (Sri Caitanya-caritAmRta, Adi-lIlA 3.15 ) “In this way, <font color="red"> after developing a taste </font color>for such things, one should try to live in VRndAvana and pass his time constantly remembering KRSNa’s name, fame, pastimes and qualities UNDER THE DIRECTION AND PROTECTION OF AN EXPERT DEVOTEE . <font color="red"> This is the sum and substance of all instruction</font color> regarding the cultivation of devotional service.” (Nectar of Instruction: Text Eight) “The age is so rotten that it is very difficult to revive this varnasrama-dharma culture. Therefore Caitanya MahAprabhu said, ‘eho bAhya, Age kaha Ara. Yes, it is all right but it is EXTERNAL now.’” ( Conversation in London: September 2, 1973 ) This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. <font color="blue"> The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION.</font color> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anadi 0 Report post Posted October 22, 2003 “The more you are engaged in devotional service, the more your senses become pure or uncovered. And when it is completely uncovered, without any designation, then you are capable to serve KRSNa. THIS IS APPRENTICESHIP. VAIDHI-BHAKTI IS APPRENTICESHIP. REAL BHAKTI, PARA-BHAKTI, THAT IS RAGANUGA-BHAKTI. (Lecture in VRndAvana: November 12, 1972) This above-mentioned quote shows that raganuga-bhakti is the next step in Srila Prabhupada’s mission, (in accomplishing the Mission of Sri Caitanya). This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gaurasundara 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 It may be external but it is still a fact that Srila Prabhupada wanted to establish it. He is on record saying that it counts for 50% of his mission. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anadi 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 OBJECTION 4: Srila Narayana Maharaja presents a view that one born in a Western body is inherently fallen, especially in regard to deity worship. Srila Prabhupada engaged and encouraged his Western disciples in deity worship and accepted them as fullfledged VaiSNavas. REFUTATION 4: It is widely known in India that Srila Narayana Maharaja is famous among all branches of the GauDIya MaTha for promoting solidarity and acceptance between devotees from the East and West. For the first time, at the age of almost eighty years, Srila Narayana Maharaja is awarding sannyAsa to disciples during the Gaura-pUrNimA celebrations. These disciples are not Indian devotees but Westerners. What to speak of deity worship, Srila MahArja’s Western disciples regularly conduct the performance of abhiSeka of the deities at major festivals and fire sacrifices in his temples in India and abroad. In addition to this, he has personally installed dozens of deities of Sri Sri Gaura-Nitäi and Sri Sri RAdhA- KRSNa, for both male and female Western devotees throughout the world. Srila Narayana Maharaja has recently published Arcana-dIpikA in English. The original Bengali version, written by Srila Narayana Maharaja’s dékñä-guru, who is also Srila Prabhupada ‘s sannyAsaguru, nitya lilA praviSTa Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana KeSava Goswami MahArAja, was also translated into English by the ISKCON authorities for use in ISKCON temples. This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 24, 2003 ****Anyway, yes I know the quote is from Prabhupada, since I was quoting "Teachings of Lord Caitanya" chapter 31. However, I didn't see any basis for acting like a "sahajiya" in the quote. Srila Prabhupada is quite clear in saying that one must always meditate on the affairs of Radha and Krsna, as well as following their mood. What is your point exactly, since we seem to agree? Yes from 1st canto. ***I don't know about Madhav, but I haven't conquered lust yet. I hope to do so, as the means of doing so is by constantly meditating on the love affairs of Radha and Krsna, as per all the previous quotes. SP write - "first clen, second - meditate." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 24, 2003 ***PrabhupAda’s work is unfinished because he did not provide us with intimate rasika literature and methods of rAgAnuga-sAdhana. It is no truth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 24, 2003 ***This above-mentioned quote shows that raganuga-bhakti is the next step in Srila Prabhupada’s mission, /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif next step SP reform this sahajya "mission". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 24, 2003 ***OBJECTION 4: Srila Narayana Maharaja presents a view that one born in a Western body is inherently fallen, It is material conception. All present, only varnasram needs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted October 24, 2003 *sigh* I wish devotees would stop arguing whos mission is more "proper" and dedicated all their energy to: SERVING KRISHNA IN THE MISSION OF THEIR CHOICE! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anadi 0 Report post Posted October 24, 2003 Statements FALSE OR TRUE AND RECONCILIATION Dear Kulapavana Prabhu devotees don't argue. The devotees try to present the true in the light of the scripture (and sadhu). This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anadi 0 Report post Posted October 24, 2003 OBJECTION 5: Srila PrabhupAda said, ‘The AcArya is not God,omniscient. He is servant of God.’ Srila Narayana Maharaja presents Srila PrabhupAda as omniscient. REFUTATION 5: If Srila Prabhupada is not omniscient, if he cannot hear us at any time or any place, what would be the use of praying to him ? What would be the use of reciting the mantras for offering bhoga in front of his picture, if he is not present in his picture? Even demigods such as the gods of air, fire, water and others, who are insignificant in comparison to Srila PrabhupAda, all witness the events of this world. This is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Sri KRSNa has personally confirmed that “sarva deva mayo guruH – the guru is the embodiment of the sum-total of all the demigods.” “GuruSu nara-matir /yasya vA nAraki saH – one who considers the spiritual master to have the consciousness of a mortal being is a resident of hell.” <font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted October 24, 2003 Anadi prabhu, I respect Srila Narayana Maharaja a lot and relish his words, but his formula is too advanced for me. I care very little what others say or think in this regard. I formulate my own oppinion for my own use. My comment as to concentrating on service and not arguing was general, not directed to any one party. Reconciliation between different Vaishnava camps would be great, but it starts with minding your own matha's business /images/graemlins/wink.gif Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anadi 0 Report post Posted October 24, 2003 "His formula is too advanced for me" Interesting statement. What is His formula? What makes you think that you know His formula? How long did you associate with Him? How long did you associate with His intimate associates? <font color="green"> His formula begins with sadhu sanga, and ends with it. </font color> Yes, sadhu sanga is for most of us too advanced . We don't have enough sukRti and samskaras to attain sadhu sanga. bhaktis tu <font color="green"> bhagavad bhakta </font color> sangena parijayate <font color="blue"> SAT-SANGA </font color> prapyate pumbhih SUKRITI purva sancite The inclination for bhakti is awakened by the association with the <font color="green"> pure devottes </font color> of the Lord And the association with the pure devotees (SAT SANGA) can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over many life times. (Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33) Some are so rebelious that they think themselves sadhu, just because, somehow they chant the Holy Names (with more or less aparadhas). ohe! vaiSNava ThAkkura doyAra sAgara e dase koruNA kori diyApada-chAyA Sodha he AmAre tomaAra caraNa dhori hari hari! biphale janama goNainu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
