Rtvik Philosophy is Covered Impersonalism

[Guest guest]

They Deify the Guru as God

 

and then in the Name of Service

 

they want to Merge with Him.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada has written:

"One should not remain a kanistha-adhikari, one who is situated on the lowest platform of devotional service and is interested only in worshiping the Deity in the temple. Such a devotee is described in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.47):

 

arcayam eva haraye

pujam yah sraddhayehate

na tad-bhaktesu canyesu

sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah

"A person who is very faithfully engaged in the worship of the Deity in the temple, but who does not know how to behave toward devotees or people in general is called a prakrta-bhakta, or kanistha-adhikari."

"One therefore has to raise himself from the position of kanistha-adhikari to the platform of madhyama- adhikari."

NOI Purport to Sloka 5

How the GBC and its followers propose that anyone rise above this level of kanistha-adhikari without a bhajan siksa guru is a mystery. Their idea that everyone can simply take instructions from the books of the founder-acarya without sadhu sanga and the association of a living siksa guru is rejected by our parama gurudeva, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. He has written about the soft rtvik advocates of his own time:

 

"Those who repeat the teachings of Thakur Bhaktivinode from memory do not necessarily understand the meaning of the words they mechanically repeat

 

...What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Those who think that the Sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the Divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the Divine Message is communicable through any other spoken dialects. All languages simultaneously express and hide the Absolute. The mundane face of all languages hides the Truth. The Transcendental face of all sound expresses nothing but the Absolute. The pure devotee is the speaker of the Transcendental language. The Transcendental Sound makes His appearance on the lips of His pure devotee. This is the direct, unambiguous appearance of Divinity. On the lips of non-devotees the Absolute always appears in His deluding aspect. To the pure devotee the Absolute reveals Himself under all circumstances. To the conditioned soul, if he is disposed to listen in a truly submissive spirit, the language of the pure devotee can alone impart the knowledge of the Absolute. The conditioned soul mistakes the deluding for the real aspect when he chooses to lend his ear to the non-devotee. This is the reason why the conditioned soul is warned to avoid all association with non-devotees.

 

Thakur Bhaktivinode is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the above powers of the pure devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought the works of Thakur Bhaktivinode will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura,

The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6

 

The entire essay by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura is found at this URL if you are interested:

Personality Cultism Is Anti-Vaisnava

 

http://members.fortunecity.com/dev3/BAB.htm

 

Also we can read in Srila Prabhupada's Srimad-Bhagavatam the importance of hearing from self realized souls. He has written:

"One must learn the transcendental subject by submissive aural reception from the right sources." SB 1.1.5

 

"The acarya or the gosvami must be well acquainted with all these literatures. To hear and explain them is more important than reading them. One can assimilate the knowledge of the revealed scriptures only by hearing and explaining. Hearing is called sravana, and explaining is called kirtana. The two processes of sravana and kirtana are of primary importance to progressive spiritual life. Only one who has properly grasped the transcendental knowledge from the right source by submissive hearing can properly explain the subject."

SB 1.1.6

 

Why does the GBC and its followers think they can understand the Srimad-Bhagavatam without continuing to hear it from the lips of a pure vaisnava? Raghunatha das Gosvami continually sought the anugatya of a siksa guru when his diksa guru departed. Why so many of my godbrothers don t accept this principle of taking guidance from a siksa guru? Srila Sridhar Maharaj has written:

 

"When he grows up, he will accept another teacher for higher education but that does not mean that the primary teacher is neglected or insulted. For our own interest whatever we find which is akin to what was given to us by our guru maharaj, whatever we find that will enlighten us futher, and whatever will help us to understand more clearly what we heard from our guru maharaj must be accepted.

 

"Otherwise, what have I taken in the prison-house of my mind, through my scholarship? God is not a finite thing. He is infinite. And as much as in the cell of my brain I have imprisoned Him, shall I stick only to that? What is this. Is my realization a living thing, or is it dead? Is there any growth? What I have received from my spiritual master can it grow. Or is it finished? Have I reached the infinite standard where I can progress no further?

 

"If someone says that he has reached that standard, and that there is nothing further to be realized, then we offer our obeisances to him from far away. WE are not worshippers of that. If one thinks he is finished, that he has attained perfection we hate it! Even an acarya should consider that he is a student, and not a finished professor who has everything. One should always think of himself as a bona fide student. We have come to realize the infinite, not a finite thing..."

Sri Guru and His Grace pp.50-51

 

 

 

Kanistha adhikaris cannot recognise who is a mahabhagavata Vaisnava and who is not. "He does not know how to behave toward devotees or people in general."

 

GBC resolutions that are inimical to sadhus expose a kanistha mentality and spiritual immaturity. Riding on the wake of what His Divine Grace put into place too many disciples of Srila Prabhupada are playing a very dangerous game of guru bhogi mentality that may destroy their bhakti creepers in time. While they hide behind institutional walls and make their internal policies their sacrosanct and avaisnava behavior becomes visible to the rest of the world.

 

Krsna Consciousness means Vaisnava association. Otherwise why did His Divine Grace travel the world so many times in the final years of his life offering sadhu-sanga? Was his goal to establish temples and communities whose real purpose becomes forgotten? I think not.

 

guror apy avaliptasys karyakarayam ajanatah

utpatha-pratipannasya parityago vidhiyate

"A guru addicted to sensual pleasure and polluted vice, who is ignorant and hs no power to descriminate between right and wrong, or who is not on the path of suddha bhakti must be abandoned. (Mahabharata, Udyoga-parva 179.25)

 

"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari."

NOI Verse 5.

Don't take this level of adhikara cheaply. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura told us that we live in a society of the cheaters and the cheated. Do not be cheated in the matter of guru. Read the Cc. And NOI and educate yourself what are the real guru's qualities. Try to understand who is actually a sadhu, and do not be fooled by institutional or ecclesiastical rubber stamps. Srila Prabhupada cautioned against this many times. Again in his lecture in London, "What is Guru" he said:

 

London, August 22, 1973

 

"...The same thing was spoken by all the acaryas. Ramanujacarya also says the same, Madhvacaryavsays the same thing, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says same thing, the Gosvamis say the same thing, and we are also speaking the same thing. There is no difference. We do not interpret the words of Krsna, that 'In my opinion, Kuruksetra means this body.' This is rascaldom. The whole situation has been spoiled by these so-called rascal gurus who gives his own opinion. This is our plain declaration: Let any rascal guru come. We can convince him that he is not guru, because he is speaking differently. We can challenge any rascal. ...So these rascals who are claiming to become God, is it a fact that nobody is equal to him, nobody is greater than him? There are so many.

 

"So this kind of guru, this kind of rascal, will not help you. Guru must come from the parampara system by disciplic succession. Five thousand years or five millions of years, what was spoken by the supreme God or guru, the present guru also will say the same thing. That is guru. That is bona fide guru. Otherwise, he's not guru. Simple definition. Guru cannot change any word of the predecessor...

 

"...So this is the process of guru. You cannot disobey the previous acarya or guru. No. You have to repeat the same thing. Not research. Sometimes rascals come that You are speaking the same thing. Why don't you speak something new by research work?" We say that we have no intelligence, we cannot make any research. We are... Guru more murkha dekhi koriya vicara. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that 'My Guru Maharaja saw Me a great fool number one.' So one who remains a great fool number one before his guru, he is guru. And one who says that 'I'm advanced so much that I can speak better than my guru,' then he's rascal. This is the process.

 

 

evam parampara-praptam

imam rajarsayo viduh

sa kaleneha (mahata)

yogo nastah parantapa

"Krsna said in the Fourth Chapter.

"So guru is one. Guru cannot be two. As soon as you find two opinions of guru, either both of them are rascals, or one is still at least rascal. There cannot be two. This is guru."

HDGACBSP

 

It is very easy to prove that the present GBC has changed many of Srila Prabhupada's words. Among their other "accomplishments" this GBC prevented the translation of the five remaining Sad Sandharbas of Srila Jiva Gosvami and the Jaiva Dharma of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Why? The did want to have their own contradictory position, opposed to these acaryas, accepted by the devotee population. They have also stood by silent as His Divine Grace s books have been re written; they have distored guru tattva, jiva tattva and regularly commit Vaisnava aparadha. The real devotees have never taught anything contrary to the written word of the Six Gosvamis, or our other predecessor acaryas, like Visvanatha Cakravarti, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura or Srila Prabhupada.

[Guruvani 0]

Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja both instituted the rtvik system and neither one said a word about it stopping after their disappearance. Don't you think they woulld have foreseen difficulties in some some disciples trying to continue rtvik after they were gone. You don't think they were wise enough to declare the rtvik system as terminated after their departure?

Neither one did.

You are in essensce calling Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja as impersonalists. Nobody but them introudced the concept into the movement and neither one said a single word about it stopping after their disapprearance.

 

Actually, the anti-rtvik people are the greatest impersonalists of all because they say that you cannot have a connection to Prabhupada anymore. They say Prabhupada is dead and he is not guru anymore. I can't think of a more impersonal view than telling new devotees that they cannot be disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

 

[Guest guest]

"Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja both instituted the rtvik system and neither one said a word about it stopping after their disappearance"

 

... because it is natural prabhu!!

[gHari 0]

Knowingly speaking lies reveals a cheating attitude that destroys any faith in any future or past statements.

 

Having to rely on so many erroneous logical assumptions, half-truths and bare-faced lies, an intelligent man will finally become honest and admit to himself that his massive scramble to support such a falsehood leaves it just too untenable.

 

The web of deceit and aparadha required to continue one's stance should be enough to wake up an honest man who is even slightly objective.

 

I am awake. You'll not con me. You may shout from your heart, but any intelligent person can see through such double-talk.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

An imperson will want to receive spirit from a cassette tape.

 

An imperson will just want to read books to prove himself right and smash others down.

 

An imperson thinks all are offenders except himself.

 

An imperson denies his very individuality and would like to deny others right to individual spiritual expression.

[Guest guest]

All gurus it is "ritviks" some sense his acaryas. If guru speak - "I am more big me guru" - it is rascal. Give citation SP for this? I am have.

 

Disciples SP not "ritviks". Govinda Swami self realized soul. It is not ritvika. Sridhara Maharaja some protect His from wolfs. He is see they. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

Does anyone else here find it humorous that someone with the nickname "God" is accusing others of being 'impersonalists' who want to merge with the absolute?

 

BTW, Mr. God, you ought to be careful what you criticize. Prabhupada himself authorized gayatri initiations by cassette tape, and he also said such things as "My books are better than me personally. I have put the best of myself into my books.", etc.

 

Not all of us read the books to be able to smash others down with our knowledge. I read the books so I can have a personal relationship with Srila Prabhupada, and hear what he has to say to me.

[Guest guest]

"Not all of us read the books to be able to smash others down with our knowledge"

 

but some one do it.... sometimes this forum seems like "ThE BattLE of CItations" or "FOLIO II ... the revenge"

 

and tape gayatri is obviously an emergence used by the pure devotee to preach and save more people...

[Govindaram 1]

Hk

 

 

Folio III 'The Way of God' /images/graemlins/grin.gif

____________________

[Guruvani 0]

Vedic knowledge descends through sruti of "that which is heard". We have seen in the shastra that reading the scriptures is the same as hearing. In other words, Vedic knowledge is not acquired via the ascending process but rather the descending process.

 

Sruti is sound. The gayatri tape of Prabhupada is sound. The Vedic rule of sruti only requires that the knowledge comes through sound. There is no stricture that the sound cannot be recorded in the ether and heard from distance places.

 

When Prabhupada chanted gayatri on the tape, the tape became spiritualized like a red-hot iron in fire and the tapes acts exactly like the original sound.

 

Criticisms of the recorded sounds(gayatri tape in particular) are coming from persons who listen to TAPES of their ISKCON or Gaudiya Math guru as well. If tape recorded sounds are empty useless sounds then why are there tapes of Narayana Maharaja or other Gaudiya Math gurus?

 

Prior to Prabhupada the recording of the actual sounds of the Acharya never existed before. Many things about Prabhupada's ministry were unprecedented. Maybe that is why rtvik is unprecedented as well.

 

There are no videos or audios of the predecessor acharyas. That makes Prabhupada unique and original and not quite limited to the same constraints of the past acharyas.

[Guest guest]

or cassette or even books,

 

No, therefore rtvik is a way to kill Prabhupada

 

you actually envy his position as guru,sadhu, mahajan, therefore you throw out the baby with the bath water,

You say no more gurus after Prabhupada:we will do bhajan without the need of any more gurus.So we will kill them off:we'd rather just worship our murti,listen to our tape,watch our video and read our book. In this way I will merge with "Prabhupada" and become "Prabhupada."This is rtvik Mayavada.

[Guest guest]

.....if there's a present bona fide guru, pure devotee to clarify the application in time, place and circumstance

 

.... we can see in this forum that folio or srila prabhupada comments are used to demonstrate everything and the opposite....

 

.... a pure devotee is directly understandable only by a pure devotee.......

 

from this the need of a living spiritual master, also for who has a guru who is in nitya lila.... if one is not a uttama adhikari cannot speak, listen, serve, make answers and receive direct and personal answers from a devotee who is in krsna lila

 

so he has to look for a pure siksa, as pure as the diksa

[theist 1]

>>or cassette or even books,

 

No, therefore rtvik is a way to kill Prabhupada<<

 

Well this naturally raises some questions. If spiritual sound cannot enter matter, then how can it be transmitted by the vocal chords of the devottees yantra in the first place. Or vibrate against the receipients ear drums subsequent to that. Or even exist at all as the sound wave that passes between the two?

 

 

[Guest guest]

There will always be people who will never accept anything except for that which they can SEE with their own two eyes. In other words, if they cannot see gurudeva sitting in front of them in a physical body then he does not exist for them in any real sense.

 

More mature devotees will continue to grow their relationship with gurudeva even in the absence of his physical presence. Physical presence is not required for transmission of bhakti. This is a fallacy pushed forward by both Gaudiya math and ISKCON types, generally devotees who are canvassing for their own guru.

 

There is nothing wrong with approaching the guru on the physical plane, but at the same time there is no bar for a devotee who wishes to have a DIRECT relationship with His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada through his books and tapes.

 

Srila Prabhupada, the great acharya of this age, had immense forethought and took painstaking care to record nearly everything in writing (books and letters) or on audio cassettes (morning walks and conversations). Thus we have a HUGE wealth of spiritual instruction to which we can turn for guidance on ANY subject. Prabhupada is PERSONALLY present in these books and tapes. The book is non-different from Srila Prabhupada.

 

I personally love to hear Srila Prabhupada's voice on the tapes or MP3 recordings, it brings peace to my heart and I have NO DOUBT that I have a direct relationship with Srila Prabhupada. I don't care if you tell me otherwise, it is no different than the Christian telling me I must accept Jesus to be saved. Just water off a duck's back, people.

 

Srila Prabhupada is my guru and I'm quite happy with my relationship with him. Don't tell me he's dead, and that I need a "living guru" to interpret his instructions for me. Prabhupada's instructions are as clear as a bell - anyone who says otherwise is a cheater.

[Guest guest]

... if not, why is everyone talking? Students hear the teacher in class, scientists write journals and give lectures, there are so many magazines and television shows.

 

Think about it. Practically all our evidence is recieved through this hearing medium. Text is just another form of hearing.

 

What differs is the quality of the evidence, those speaking, and what people can understand or are interested in.

 

Hare Krsna. Guess Guest

[Guest guest]

"There is nothing wrong with approaching the guru on the physical plane"

 

thanks for your kind concession!!

 

prabhupada is so "clear as a bell "(in absence of a pure devote explaining his siddhanta) that in this forum everyone is saying everything with ample folio citations

 

prabhupada is not dead, but he's in a plane that we cannot access for a regular guru/disciple relationship

 

(asking and to be answered)

 

reading alone would be of not to much help because we don't know wich of the 9383746 instructions of SrilaPrabhupada is fit for us... of course only a pure devotee can understand a pure devotee

 

your relationship is not only as christians... it is potentially dangerous as the relationship that osama bin laden claims to have with allah

 

i would be not surprised if anyone, collecting the most hard sentences of srila prabhupada out of their contest, without a proper guidance, would make acts or therrorism against sone kind of "rascal" or "karmi"

 

i have read in an harishory diary, that in australia we had also harekrishnas putting bombs in butcher's shops.......

 

it is not so easy to understand prabhupada

[theist 1]

>>"it is not so easy to understand prabhupada "<<

 

Without the Lord in the heart we cannot understand anything, mundane or spiritual. We have to rely on the Paramatma in evey circumstance. Rather listening to a tape reading a book or listening to Guru speak through a body in class.

 

The process for understanding doesn't change even though the medium may appear to.

 

We are dependent on Hrsikesa at every moment.

[Guruvani 0]

Prabhupada gave the example many times that when something material is dovetailed into the service of Krishna it loses it's material qualities and acts like spiritual energy. In this way the tapes and videos of Prabhupada become spiritualized and act just like the original. To say that Prabhupada's words become "materialized" by tape recording goes against the teachings of Rupa Goswami and Srila Prabhupada. The gayatri tape serves the same function as the original speaking by Srila Prabhupada because it has been touched by his transcendental potency.

[AncientMariner 0]

 

 

 

 

That is the conclusion I have come to myself as well. After reading and reading Srila Prabhupada's books I have come to the conclusion that all that is needed to go home back to Godhead is all in there. Why should I go to a bunch of trouble to find a guru who may or may not be as qualified as Srila Prabhupada when I have all of Srila Prabhupada's books? At this point in my life I am looking for the most simple and direct way back to Godhead and I have absolute faith in Srila Prabhupada's instructions. I am sorry if I am offending any modern guru or any institution associated with Krishna but after having lived a life where I have seen cheating in every form I know for certain I am not being cheated by Prabhupada so what more could I ask for. My search is officially over. Srila Prabhupada is my guru wether he is alive or dead.

[Guest guest]

i am very sorry that you have find only cheaters, but reading srila prabhupad means following his instructions

 

and one instruction is "search for a pure devotee acting in this world and get instructions and initiation"

 

so, pray krsna and prabhupada for it, otherwise what's the use of reading without following?

 

only with the help of a pure devotee we can understand another one

[AncientMariner 0]

 

 

 

But what I read is association of the book bhagavata is as good as association of the person bhagavata. As far as following his instructions go his main instructions that I read were to chant Hare Krishna and don't engage in meat-eating, intoxication, illicit sex or gambling. Am I wrong?

[Guest guest]

You say that one must have a pure devotee to help you understand another what another pure devotee is saying.

 

But how can you understand the second pure devotee without another pure devotee to help you understand him? Where does it end?

 

Please explain for me the difference between hearing a pure devotee on a tape and hearing him over a loudspeaker while you are in the kitchen. ARe you saying that the tape is inferior because he's dead now and you need someone else to interpret for you?

 

This is useless logic. Basically what you are saying is that someone who took direct diksa initiation from Srila Prabhupada must now approach someone else to understand what he said?!?

 

Ridiculous.

[Sudama 0]

Some of the disciples of one particular guru are really big on this point - that you need X Maharaj to help you actually delve into the nectar that is in Prabhupada's books.

 

My question to them is always the same: "Well who's going to help you delve into the nectar of X Maharaj's books when he's gone? Will that be your job?"

 

I've never gotten a clear answer to this question. Apparently their philosophy only applies to Srila Prabhupada. Their own guru is not subject to the "You must have another pure devotee to explain the pure devotee's words to you" rule.

[Sudama 0]

This ought to clarify the point further:

 

**********************************

 

Letter to: Cidananda

--

Bhaktivedanta Manor

25 November, 1973

 

My Dear Cidananda,

Please accept my blessings.

I am in due receipt of your letter and your kind words to me.

Thank you very much.

I should be returning to Los Angeles the last week of November

and I should be more than happy to see you there. Please always

try to remember me by my teachings and we shall always be

together. Just like I have written in the first publications of

Srimad-Bhagavatam, "The spiritual Master lives forever by His

divine instruction and the disciple lives with him.", because I

have always served my Guru Maharaja and followed His teachings I

am now even never separated from Him. Sometimes Maya may come and

try to interfere but we must not falter, we must always follow the

chalked out path layed down by the great acharya's and in the end

you will see.

I hope this letter finds you healthy and in blissful serving

mood.

 

Your ever well wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

ACBS.mda