Cause and Effect + Free will = Destiny??

[Tirisilex 0]

A long time ago I had this dream and this dream came true years later. When the dream came true I experienced the strongest feeling of De Ja Vu that I had ever experienced.

I say this because for most people they cannot really believe in something unless they experience it. It's one thing to read about for example, that Judas was destined to betray Jesus that Jesus's birth was predicted and wise men saw in visions that it would happen.. when one reads something there may be a feeling of doubt or disbelief the idea of what it is speaking of.

But having a first hand experience in seeing the future I now believe in a new dimension that it can happen. When this happened however It raised a problem for me. If the future can be predicted does that mean it is set in stone like the past is set in stone? That prophecies are merely a reverse memory sort of speak. That just how one can remember what had once happened one can "remember" what will happen.

This raised the question in me, does someone truely have free will? I mean if you are destined to do something then it cannot be avoided thus no real free will.

For years this idea bothered me and I had thought about it alot. I had seen on a science fiction show this alien who could see the future. When she was asked if she could see the future her answer was "Well not really, what I do see is thousands of different possibilities and the outcome of each."

So when a decision is presented to her she can see what would happen to her with every possible choice she could make in that decision. This idea thus divides the future in a sort of tree. Where you have many multiple destinies that you can CHOOSE. Now this idea did give me comfort. Now, the movie Matrix: Reloaded came up and it deals with the issue of Destiny and free will.

Taking the idea of the law of cause and effect you now could say that a persons personality and belief structure is based on experiences and the circumstances of said persons life. Then your decisions are based on a complex factor of conditions and causes that was been set in said persons life. So one truely does not make "free" choice but their choices are made due to the condtions and circumstances of ones life. A very complex system of chaos sort of speak. Like a pool table when the white ball hits the group of gathered balls. By the science of physics those balls will spread out and bounce and go in a plotted course that can be mapped mathmatically.

 

So is there truely free will or are we observing an illusion of free will where we are aware yet all of our beliefs and actions are simply the results of causes and conditions?

 

When it comes down to it.. Is there really TRUE choice of this or that. Or are our lives flowing in a direction that ultimatly we really dont have control of?

 

Curious what anyones thoughts are..

 

 

[theist 1]

Tirisilex,

 

This question has haunted more for years. It remains beyond my understanding. I can at some level sense my will. But I can also pinpoint the various circumnstances around me that influence any decision I "choose" to make.

 

For one thing I accept karma. Now if will is not involved in karma then why do we experience different karma's? But if I try to laser in on my free will at any particualr point in time, like now, I can't see it divorced from the control of the material energy.

 

At the end of the Gita Krsna tells Arjuna that he could decide not to fight but that he would would be engaged anyway due to his nature as a warrior. The choice appeared to be one of which consciousness Arjuna acted under not if he would act or not. After explaining this He told Arjuna to deliberate on this fully and then do what you wish to do.

 

So my question more or less echo's yours. Is our free will limited strictly to what consciousness we will act in or is there some interplay between our free will and our being controlled by the three modes of nature? To what extent can we impose our will on our own actions or can we at all?

 

I'll just sit down next to Trilisex and wait for some answers to this most perplexing problem.

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

You see, in buddhism there is no self or the soul, but there is a collection of desires that came up due to past karmas... and we are those desires.

 

However, in our philosophy we do believe that there is a self or the soul. So, we are not just billiard balls that are going in a mathematical course due to our past karmas. But, we are are the ones who act like the billiard balls living in an illusion of the mathematical course itself being the free will.

 

In reality, for the billiard balls, the course is not in their control. In the same way, in the so called free will, where we go deep into the maya or desire fullfilling attitude, we are being driven by the impulse that has been set for us by our past Karma.

 

The only way however, is to restrain such a path, because we are the individual souls that can stop and have the chance for the real free will, which is the free will to get out of the cycle of Karma.

 

When we get out of karma, we are peaceful at ease.

 

I believe this getting out of "The wheel of Karma" is the buddhist idea of nirvana, which is bliss.

 

but in Hindu philosophy, we go a little further, where the soul goes beyond the cycle of karma and into the abode of all bliss, which exists everywhere, and this is called vraja (by devotees of krishna).

 

In conclusion, the basic fact of life is that, You can choose , yet the choosing itself is perverted to make you not choose. To choose the right choice, we need to go choose the choice that does not appear like choosing... I think.

 

Intelligent self-restraint is the answer /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

I want to spend a lot of money for fun, but not spending is the true freedom.

[Gauracandra 1]

I'm with Theist. Usually I can't make heads or tails. I believe in free will, as I can't believe my typing at this moment was just a mechanical result of bouncing molecules. Another similar question is to ask if all actions are equally influencing, or are some actions more important than others. Do we have freewill on the margins, though the overall movement of life is out of our control?

[Guest guest]

Is it that we can choose either to surrender or not to Krishna's will?

[Tirisilex 0]

** Is it that we can choose either to surrender or not to

** Krishna's will?

 

All the experiences in your life has conditioned you to make the choices that you make. As an example, a person is born into a small community cut off from the rest of the world with no contact of other civilizations. Because of this condition they will never know about other religions other systems of communities. Thus creating their choices to revolve around the culture they are accustomed to. Ignorance is a cause and condition which effects choice. Knowledge is also a cause and condition. Because one is ignorant they are influenced by it and choose accordingly. If they have gained knowledge they are inlfuenced by that and choose accordingly. This simplifies it a bit. Causes and conditions in human life is certainly complex. To me it sounds like a trap of Samsara and there seems to be no escape from it but to just let it flow. Everytime I think it over even the escape itself is the result of conditions and experiences leading to the eventual release.

 

Choice isnt really choice but simply a response that is conditioned. The more that I think about it the more it appears to be true but yet insane.

 

[Guest guest]

In the middle of all this is the Lord's causeless mercy.He is fully independent to bestow His special mercy on the fallens jivas caught up in the wheel of samsara.Our choice is to accept the mercy or not.

god

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

Choice pretaining to what action we do is in our hands.

 

The choice which deals with what would be the result would be in Krishna's hands.

 

For example, if you are a simple farmer, you may work very hard, but the crops may fail to live.

 

On the other hand, the fertility of the soil may suddenly increase, thus giving you a bounty to sell.

 

So, the action is in your hand, "to do or not to do" is yours.

 

But, what result you will obtain would be based on Krishna.

 

even though past actions would effect us, they effect you as impulses, the action is still in our hands. /images/graemlins/grin.gif