Fetal Rights?

[stonehearted 0]

Guess: You're just excercising your choices as the abortion advocates do. Well all do that. We create our existence by our faith.

 

That's just a willful misreading of my position and my strategy. I use what I've learned from my academic training and profession to argue Srila Prabhupada's position. I learned this directly from him and his long-time preaching disciples. Anyone soft on abortion recognizes the strength of my anti-abortion convictions; any real abortion advocates a least recognize that not all abortion foes foam at the mouth when speaking with them.

[Guest guest]

Living Entity, I just followed and read your original link post.

 

Cool. Thanks.

 

Guess Guest

[stonehearted 0]

Regarding your glee when folks blow up abortion clinics or murder doctors, that's very different from Srila Prabhupada's view. When some devotees in New Zealand accidentally blew themselves up while making bombs to use on restaurants, Srila Prabhupada was furious. He said very strongly that our process is different; we accomplish our aims by education, not violence. Another time, when some devotees recalled a remark he made in '74 during the famous "Varnashram talks"--that one day an army of devotees would march up to people's doors and shoot those who don't accept Krishna--Srila Prabhupada said that's not our process. That's only for the biggest demons, who stop our sankirtan in a big way. People like Mao (that was his example). For everyone else our method is compassion, preaching.

[theist 1]

Babhru, for all your talk on communication when asked a simple question on the woman's right to choose, which could be answered plainly in one simple short sentence, you danced around so much I still don't know what YOU believe on choice. To mention how Roe might be overturned is not to reveal you feelings on choice. One can be against abortion and still for choice.

[theist 1]

You seem to have forgotten some part of my post O great communicator.

I wrote:"Devotees have a wider even more urgent message so there is no need for them to become extremists on any particular cause "

[Guest guest]

Babhru, willfull misreading? What? My purpose is not just to bash you.

 

My experience and faith tells me that you will never make up the ground you give on choice once that is done.

 

And simply claiming yourself your own authority on this matter without reference to any other system of thought is not convincing. So why persist if you don't care to convince me?

[Guest guest]

Thieist and Stonehearted, I know you guys are simultaneously posting now with me.

 

I'll be back later.

 

Guess Guest

[theist 1]

guess guest see you then.

 

Remember Krsna

[stonehearted 0]

My expeience and faith are consideraby different from yours. I don't give ground; I let them know that I know their arguments, then I show that there is a broader perspective they're unaware of. I did this with devastating effectiveness in 1976. Because I was well known on Maui as an IGG spokesman, my PoliSCi professor, a second-generation Berkeley radical lawyer, challenged me on abortion and compassion in front of the class. When I finished calmly and systematically dismantling her argument on the basis of Bhagavat philosophy, there was a stunned silence in the room. Although I didn't change her mind, she conceded in front of the rest of the class that she didn't know how to rebut the points I made because she had never considered the perspective I offered. Although I'm sure Elaine Wender is still an abortion-rights advocate, two women in the class later approached me and said that they had changed their minds about abortion. One had already had an abortion, but said she had decided, largely because of my arguments, never to have another. (A few years later I occasionally saw her in Honolulu, with her kids. Each time we met, she thanked me for helping open her eyes.)

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "claiming [myself] as [my] own authority without refernce to any other system of thougt." Can you clarify, please?

[stonehearted 0]

Thieist and Stonehearted, I know you guys are simultaneously posting now with me.

 

I'll be back later.

 

I think I'll take a break, too, and do some writing and some painting (house painting, not art). I'll check in later.

 

 

[theist 1]

How to get this point through to you Babhru is still a mystery to me. We have been talking of the LAWMAKERS since page one.

[stonehearted 0]

theist: We have been talking of the LAWMAKERS since page one.

 

No legislature has yet been able to pass laws that would get around Roe. The ball is in the Supreme Court at this point. Regarding LAWMAKERS themselves, do you write your legislators, or call their offices? When you do, make the most solid argument you can. I have donje this sometimes. Wouldn't help much here; Hawaii's whole congressional delegation, as lifelong Democrats, will at best politely pass the buck to the Supremes (at least for the moment). The Court will change, and in the meantime, folks need to elect legislators who respond favorably on this and whatever other issues we see as important. In the meantime, the best we can do is work on people we meet, one by one or in groups, to change the culture.

[stonehearted 0]

I just went back and looked at page one. The only people who mention any lawmakers there are Krishnanath and stonehearted. Most of the rest was about me. !Que lastima!

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

Anyway, as we look through the scriptures it does say it is wrong to eat meat. Then it advocates killing in bhagavath gita... I am getting mixed messages here.

 

However, I do believe abortion is wrong, but wrong and right are not always the same thing. Something that is wrong can be right in an another instance.

 

But then you can argue that whatever happens to you it happens due to karma and with such an understanding I guess abortion is wrong and you just have to suffer the consequences of your actions of the past.

 

I don't care anymore! sheesh

 

 

[theist 1]

My response to your intitial post mention lawmakers,and your pro-choice stance from page one.

 

In reply to:

--

 

Babhru:

I believe that the choice should be left to the woman involved,

 

 

--

 

 

 

Why is that? I thought those ignorant middle-aged men were in the legislature to make laws protecting the weak.

 

I would be interested why you are pro-choice. I find that a difficult postion for a devotee.

 

...take the essence...SP letter to Krsnadasa 1972

 

--------------

 

Yes I petition lawmakers. I don't spend time anymore with explaining my position. I simply say I am 100% against abortion and I vote. I live in California. I also print my own flers and post them around UC berkeley campus and the surrounding area. They don't last long, they get pulled down rather fast in most places. I found some pictures of ripped apart fetuses on the web for that fast emotive impact. I gave up debating the issue on other forums like beliefnet. There are so many hard core baby killers out there that I just become enraged and the excersise is non-productive. I still drop by a leave a post now and then just to keep the opponents from thinking they have won the debate. My approach is just one of planting seeds. The results are up to Krsna.

 

Presently I am listening to the house of rep's debate on banning partial birth abortion. The vote will be later this afternoon I believe. Clinton vetoed it twice while president. I hope you didn't vote for him. Preaching against abortion while voting for those that have the power and desire to keep in place makes little sense to me.

 

[livingentity 0]

compassion is being rapidly lost and it has become acceptable to murder.

 

What would you do if you saw someone beating their child? Would you just say - well, the kid would probably grow up to be a criminal so it is best to just kill it now.

 

It is the same thing - the only difference is that the child is still in the mother's womb.

 

Look at the pictures on the news article at the beginning of this thread. Tell me those pictures do not depict a living, feeling human being. Tell me that you could without feeling or remorse yank that child out of the nurturing womb and throw it in the garbage can.

 

Does your copy of the Bhagavad Gita explain each verse to you? Please read Prabhupada's translation - He explains each verse in a very simple but concise manner.

[livingentity 0]

seeing the child in the womb as a human being. You do not even appear to see it as any type of living entity. You were once there just as all of us were. We are feeling humans and that embryo did not start as impersonal and become personal. It does not work that way.

 

I am just amazed that anyone here can have these attitudes.

 

You advocate murder - pure and simple. I can not accept that.

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

Ok i will stop posting more on this issue /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[livingentity 0]

that we try to help you understand that abortion is murder. You tried to justify abortion and that is murder thus advocating murder.

 

Apparently something that was said got to you and that is why is throw up your arms and walk away.

 

You can probably find a copy of Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita As It Is at a used bookstore. His purports help so much in the understanding.

 

 

[Guest guest]

You're right; I missed your reponse to my initial comment on legislators. However, as you've kindly desisted from mentioning, that's not the real issue. The issue is what we'll do. I admit I voted for Clinton and Gore in '92; I really thought they may be different Democrats. I couldn't vote for Clinton again, since he turned out to be as two-faced as Bush Sr. I don't vote on the basis of this one issue alone. I try my best to make my votes count toward changing our culture, including the political culture. I will prefer someone who's pro-life to others, but I weigh a good number of considerations.

 

Good luck in Berkeley. It sounds as though you get as far with them as I did with Wender. It may be more productive to focus on the big picture by trying to give them Krishna consciousness instead, in hopes that their hearts may change, as ours have. Do you work in conjunction with the ISKCON devotees there? Based on what you see, how is that center faring these days?

[Guest guest]

I don't think anyone wants you to go away. We would like you to open yourself to considering another perspective on the issue. I think it's good advice to read Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Try chanting Hare Krishna daily with feeling, too, asking Krishna to open your heart to his love.

 

You have to admit that your posts make me look "pro-life" by comparison, perhaps even to theist and Guess Guest. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[stonehearted 0]

That was me, Babhru. Forgot to log in.

[Guest guest]

"I don't give ground; I let them know that I know their arguments, then I show that there is a broader perspective they're unaware of."

 

... I have to agree with Theist's comment above. You drew our fire with your comments on choice. And you have been duplicitous in both your behavior and philosophy on this matter.

 

... You may have won your college debate in the example above without granting a woman her right to choose. I don't know. It doesn't make much difference.

 

... I have seen Theists post on other abortion boards and he has put in untold hours in debating with some of the best abortion advocates around, mostly using the same nurturing communication you expouse. It is not that we don't understand your methods. We just don't agree with them (like we don't understand and don't agree with people who expound abortion).

 

... We both have problems with duplicity centering around this pivotal issue of choice.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "claiming [myself] as [my] own authority without refernce to any other system of thought." Can you clarify, please?

 

... The reasons you provide for your methods of debating women abortionists don't come across to me as logical or philosophical or even effective. It sounds to me as if you are justifying your preference. That's all.

 

... Now I read your earlier reply I love krishna earlier and I did think it was effective. It was great. Full of sensitivity and meaning. But the ultimate result has been frustration. And this you have conceeded with your overall preaching efforts.

 

... Theist and I also have alot of experience with abortion issues and advocates. And we are in agreement on the futility of arguing with them. We would never, ever, grant them the demoniac conclusion that is is their body and they can decide to kill at their own subjective whim. It is a tactical mistake.

 

... Now you have vehemently stated your opposition to abortion and yet by your trick she can decide. Theist and I simply don't respect this.

 

Theist, sorry if I misrepresent you.

 

[Guest guest]

(like we don't understand and don't agree with people who expound abortion).

 

... I think you know what I mean

 

Guess Guest

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

The pictures presented in the first article, they are very...effective.