mahak, apology for uncool remarks, iraq

[Guest guest]

Haribol, I apologize for my remarks on another topic, calling those who are on the other side of the debate "idiots" is not only uncool, but offensive. Especially to theist, who I consider a friend, I humbly beg to be forgiven for my excesses.

 

This is the bad thing about war. We are all victims of our education, and during extremely stressful times, unfortunate passions take over.

 

I am a retired military worker, and my support of many friends, including my son, is so heartfelt that It is hard to type. But the fact remains that there is just too much criminal activity against the american people, including troops, for me to ignore the evil cretins that have taken control of our once great nation, rendering the constitution moot.

 

My commentary could very well take a different approach. I could say that i BELIEVE THAT iRAQ AND sADDAM DID DO wtc, but I would still be protesting most vociferously.

 

From a purely military standpoint, the bushes and pearls and rimsfelds, etc, are engaged in treason. I could want saddam killed, but I see only iraqis killed. I could see that the commander, tommy idiot, aint no schwarskoph, aint no powell. He is a traitor for violating top security by having his wife involved. This is not a ridiculous notion, this is military. Loose lips sink ships, and this dude is killing our troops by his disregard for what anyone with any clearance knows, dont even discuss with family.

 

The utter arrogance of their approach has to be considered. They think a light show is going to have the enemy kiss our ass? I think not, did WTC make americans surrender? No, it turned even the most peaceful liberals into avengers. But amerikkka has lost the good will of the world that was in place by our victimization on 9-11 because our cabal, especially the unelected covert government, NSC, et al, has decided to become terrorists.

 

Even the "Shock and Awe" moniker is the most puffed up[ method of warfare. Arejuna did not have this, nor did yudhisthira. They went to war with great sorrow, even though their victimization was sooooo great. Arjuna actually felt that he could not continue to live if duryodhana had to be killed. This is proper warfare, the kind that is considered valid.

 

Heavy hearts, but there is no heavy heart in our braggert way, win, win, win. Hell, this is not a game.

 

But, if some believe that alcoholics and cocaine addicts like gw bush are to be trusted, so be it. The cabal was already in place when clinton was in power, so his puffs of pot undid him, but what about the coke and alcohol of our present leader? What about his dodge of the draft? There is no equal playing field.

 

Again, Im very passionate about this stuff, as my son cheered me on for my views. He wants out, so do many marines who are being shot at by other marines because the military leadership thinks that just their reputation will make the win. The marines who drowned because their packs made it impossible to swim. This is training, and our troops aree untrained, relying on leaderships ideas that our reputation is enough to make em throw down their arms.

 

Again, I apologize for my rhetoric, and I will only call those directly responsible for violating the constitution and the geneva convention, and the UN Charter, those responsible for using our troops for their own gains.

 

Hell, or Veep has already pocketed $10.000,000 in less than a wekk of war. Pearl has resigned from the unelected admin so he does not have to answer for his conflict of interest, but it is his work alone that has led to this holocaust.

 

Ill save my rhetoric, but I will post the old Bob Dylan songs here, because they say it all.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

[Guest guest]

Come you masters of war

You that build the big guns

You that build the death planes

You that build all the bombs

You that hide behind walls

You that hide behind desks

I just want you to know I can see through your masks

 

 

You that never have done nothin' but build to destroy

You play with my world like it's your little toy

You put a gun in my hand then you hide from my eyes

Then you turn and run farther when the fast bullets fly

 

Like Judas of old you lie and deceive

A world war can't be won, and you want me to believe

But I see through your eyes and I see through your brain

Like I see through the water that runs down my drain

 

You that fasten all the triggers for the others to fire

Then you sit back and watch while the death count gets

higher

You hide in your mansions while the young people's blood

Flows out of their bodies and gets buried in the mud

 

You've thrown the worst fear that can ever be hurled

Fear to bring children into the world

For threatening my baby, unborn and unnamed

You ain't worth the blood that runs in your veins

 

How much do I know to talk out of turn

You might say that I'm young, you might say I'm unlearned

But there's one thing I know, though I'm younger than you

Even Jesus would never forgive what you do

 

Let me ask you one question: is your money that good?

Will it buy you forgiveness? Do you think that it could?

I think you will find when your death takes its toll

All the money you made won't ever buy back your soul

 

And I hope that you die and your death will come soon

I'll follow your casket through the pale afternoon

And I'll watch while you're lowered into your death bed

Then I'll stand over your grave till I'm sure that you're

dead

 

 

[Guest guest]

Oh, where have you been, my blue eyed son?

Oh, where have you been, my darling young one?

I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains

I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways

I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests

I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans

I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard

And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard

And it's a hard rain's a gonna fall

 

Oh, what did you see, my blue eyed son?

Oh, what did you see, my darling young one?

I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it

I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it

I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin'

I saw a room full of men with their hammers a bleedin'

I saw a white ladder all covered with water

I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken

I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children

And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard

And it's a hard rain's a gonna fall

 

And what did you hear, my blue eyed son?

And what did you hear, my darling young one?

I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin'

Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world

Heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a blazin'

Heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin'

Heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin'

Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter

Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley

And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard

And it's a hard rain's a gonna fall

 

Oh, who did you meet, my blue eyed son?

Who did you meet, my darling young one?

I met a young child beside a dead pony

I met a white man who walked a black dog

I met a young woman whose body was burning

I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow

I met one man who was wounded in love

I met another man who was wounded with hatred

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard

It's a hard rain's a gonna fall

 

Oh, what'll you do now, my blue eyed son?

Oh, what'll you do now, my darling young one?

I'm a goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a fallin'

I'll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest

Where the people are many and their hands are all empty

Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters

Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison

Where the executioner's face is always well hidden

Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten

Where black is the color, where none is the number

And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it

And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it

Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin'

But I'll know my song well before I start singin'

And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard

It's a hard rain's a gonna fall

 

 

[Guest guest]

Far between sundown's finish an' midnight's broken toll

We ducked inside the doorway as thunder went crashing

As majestic bells of bolts struck shadows in the sounds

Seeming to be the chimes of freedom flashing

Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight

Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight

An' for each an' ev'ry underdog soldier in the night

An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

 

 

Through the city's melted furnace, unexpectedly we watched

With faces hidden as the walls were tightening

As the echo of the wedding bells before the blowin' rain

Dissolved into the bells of the lightning

Tolling for the rebel, tolling for the rake

Tolling for the luckless, the abandoned an' forsaked

Tolling for the outcast, burnin' constantly at stake

An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

 

Through the mad mystic hammering of the wild ripping hail

The sky cracked its poems in naked wonder

That the clinging of the church bells blew far into the breeze

Leaving only bells of lightning and its thunder

Striking for the gentle, striking for the kind

Striking for the guardians and protectors of the mind

An' for the poet and the painter far behind his rightful time

An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

 

 

Through the wild cathedral evening the rain unraveled tales

For the disrobed faceless forms of no position

Tolling for the tongues with no place to bring their thoughts

All down in taken-for-granted situations

Tolling for the deaf an' blind, tolling for the mute

For the mistreated, mateless mother, the mistitled prostitute

For the misdemeanor outlaw, chained an' cheated by pursuit

An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

 

Even though a cloud's white curtain in a far-off corner flared

An' the hypnotic splattered mist was slowly lifting

Electric light still struck like arrows, fired but for the ones

Condemned to drift or else be kept from drifting

Tolling for the searching ones, on their speechless, seeking trail

For the lonesome-hearted lovers with too personal a tale

An' for each unharmful, gentle soul misplaced inside a jail

An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

 

Starry-eyed an' laughing as I recall when we were caught

Trapped by no track of hours for they hanged suspended

As we listened one last time an' we watched with one last look

Spellbound an' swallowed 'til the tolling ended

Tolling for the aching, whose wounds cannot be nursed

For the countless confused, accused, misused, strung-out ones an' worse

An' for every hung-up person in the whole wide universe

An' we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Of war and peace the truth just twists, its curfew gull it glides

Upon 4-legged forest clouds the cowboy angel rides

With his candle lit into the sun, though its glow is waxed in black

All except when 'neath the trees of Eden

 

 

 

The lampost stands with folded arms, its iron claws attached

To curbs 'neath holes where babies wail though it shadows metal badge

All in all can only fall with a crashing but meaningless blow

No sound ever comes from the gates of Eden

 

This savage soldier sticks his head in sand and then complains

Unto the shoeless hunter who's gone deaf but still remains

Upon the beach where hounddogs bay at ships with tattooed sails

Heading for the gates of Eden

 

With a time-rusted compass blade, Aladdin and his Lamp

Sits with utopian hermit monks, side-saddle on the Golden Calf

And on their promises of paradise you will not hear a laugh

All except inside the gates of Eden

 

Relationships of ownership they whisper in the wings

To those condemned to act accordingly and wait for succeeding kings

And I try to harmonize with songs the lonesome sparrow sings

There are no kings inside the gates of Eden

 

The motorcycle black madonna two-wheeled gypsy queen

And her silver studded phantom cause the grey-flanneled dwarf to scream

As he weeps to wicked birds of prey who pick up on his breadcrumbs sins

And there are no sins inside the gates of Eden

 

The kingdoms of experience in the precious winds they rot

While paupers change possessions each one wishing for what the other has got

And the princess and the prince discuss what's real and what is not

It doesnt matter inside the gates of Eden

 

The foreign sun it squints upon a bed that is never mine

As friends and other strangers from their fates try to resign

Leaving men wholly totally free to do anything they wish to do but die

And there are no trials inside the gates of Eden

 

At dawn my lover comes to me and tells me of her dreams

With no attempts to shovel the glimpse into the ditch of what each one means

At times I think there are no words but these to tell what's true

And there are no truths outside the gates of Eden

 

[Guest guest]

Haribol, Brother Bob was right then in his assessment, and he is right now. But I close for today with a hopeful song, about shelter, his greatest song. Haribol, mahaksadasa

 

.....

 

'Twas in another life time, one of toil and blood

When blackness was a virtue, the road was full of mud

I came in from the wilderness, a creature void of form.

"Come in" she said, "I'll give ya shelter from the storm."

 

And if I pass this way again, you can rest assured,

I'll always do my best for her on that I give my word.

In a world of steel eyed death and men fighting to be warm,

Come in she said, I'll give you shelter from the storm.

 

Not a word was spoke between us, there was little risk involved.

everything up to that point had been left unresolved.

Try imagining a place where it's always safe and warm

Come in she said I'll give you shelter from the storm.

 

I was burned out from exhaustion, buried in the hail.

Poisoned in the bushes and blown out on the trail

Hunted like a crocodile ravaged in the corn

Come in she said I'll give you shelter from the storm

 

Suddenly I turned around and she was standing there

With silver bracelets on her wrists and flowers in her hair.

She walked up to me so gracefully and took my crown of thorns

Come in she said I'll give you shelter from the storm.

 

Now there's a wall between us, something has been lost.

I took too much for granted, I got my signals crossed

Just to think that all began on a noneventfull morn

Come in she said I'll give you shelter from the storm

 

Well the deputy walks on hard nails and the preacher rides a mount

But nothing really matters much, it's doom alone that counts

And the one-eyed undertaker, he blows a futile horn

Come in she said I'll give you shelter from the storm

 

I've heard newborn babies wailin' like a mornin' dove

And old men with broken teeth stranded without love.

Do I understand your question, then is it hopeless and forlorn.

Come in she said I'll give you shelter from the storm.

 

In a little hill top village, they gambled for my clothes

I bargained for salvation and she gave me a lethal dose.

I offered up my innocence, and got repaid with scorn

Come in she said I'll give you shelter from the storm

 

I'm livin' in a foreign country, but I'm bound to cross the line.

Beauty walk a razors edge, someday I'll make it mine.

If I could only turn back the clock to when God and her were born

Come in she said I'll give you shelter from the storm.

 

 

[theist 1]

Hey mahak, no problem. I understand the added pessure of having a son engaged. Well i don't really understand but I understand that i don't really understand as I am not in that situation. It's a high pressure time.

 

You can know that I really understand the view of the hard left. In the late 60's I would usually skip high school and go downtown and sell what were then called underground papers. Remember them? Articles from the Black Panthers and later White Panthers, along with stories from the SDS and their radical faction the Weatherground. These were my heros and role models. I remember the day we occupied and shut down the Marine recruiting canter at Portland State campus.

 

I had an epiphany one day on a bus. I tried to sell a paper to a guy next to me, and he just said,"No thanks, I'm not in to hate rhetoric". We all have moments that end up being major turning points in our lives and that was one of mine. What I was selling was hate rhetoric. For me it was an experience of great clarity. Not long after that I bumped, by Caitya-gurus grace, into the sankirtana party that had newly arrived on "my corner".

 

Thereafter it was drums not bombs.

 

I'm not a knee jerk supporter of the right as I once was of the left. It's just that issue by issue their arguments make more sense in the relative way. Not all of them but most.

 

Anyway, at some point this whole material nightmare will seem like a lighting flash.

 

Peace brothersoul and

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

Haribol, friend, thanx for accepting my apology. My siksa instructed me about apologies for offence. When one offends, he must apologize, but such apology must also be accepted, so the route is complete. I offer you my humble obiesnacies.

 

I try to keep a balance on all this, I certainly cannot go along with bush where he states that the protesters are in saddam's camp. This is his simplistic approach, like many other things. This thing is not cut and dried.

 

What I really believe in (not belief, for my experiance makes this revealed truth) is karma, both individual and collective. We (US) must pay for our greed, we must pay for our wanton hiranyakasipu tendency to usurp all the world resources. And the children dying in Iraq (and soon in our own streets as this 100 year war will continue), these are none other than those who have caused so much pain. And if I have to bury a son, this is because I have to deal with a problem that has not been yet paid. So, the end result, is what you speak of, there is something other than martyaloka, the planet of cruel death. We place our heads on the ground and beg for admittance into the party of life, the samkirtana party, whether apparent like the days of old w2here chanting was heard in every city if not village of this world, but even in the party going on in the conscious mind, like the poor brahmin who had no facility to do bhakti, but still burnt his finger on the ghee lamp of the mind.

 

Politics, its hard to be a democrat with a similarly passionate stance on pro life issues. I cant be a republican with my strong position of american labor and treatment of our disenfranchised. I cannot be independant and go with fools like nadir and perot, who only cause trouble in our closed system. So the christians hate my guts because I like rastafarianism, the krsnas hate me because I cite Lord Jesus as authority on vaisnavism, Farrakkan hates me because I know he murder5ed my hero Malclom X, so where do I go?

 

Or how about this? have you ever heard of anyone surrendering without tasting bitter defeat? Im defeated, so all I have left is that spot on the ground where I can place my head in Homage to the Supreme Lord.

 

This is best, but as a military scientist, 60s left wing truth (you gotta admit, those dylan songs are timelessly valid even today) believer, and prolifer, I still gotta comment. Opinions are like okoles, everyones gottem.

 

Lub ya bra, hare krsna, ys mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

By the way, theist, did you associate with the temple on e burnside. Went there for a week in 1971 before I moved to the sawtooths (BB's country). Knew a viet vet from there, Krsna Chaitanya das in hawaii, we used to reminesce about the old burnside rental. Funny, the rental temples in the very early 70s were so much better that the mansions that came later. haribol, mahak

[theist 1]

Mahak,

 

Burnside sure enough. Actually there were three on Burnside. One for just a few months then it moved down the street. I lived in the second one for a short while (about 7 months). And after Danavir took over they moved it up to around 39th to nicer digs.

 

They gave me grief about Jesus also. Danavir gave me an ultimatium. I choose to leave. Also I am not meant for a disciplined life. I inhabit realms far below those required for vaidhi bhakti & raga-marga is just something written about in books to me.Oh well you gotta start somewhere.

 

I know Krsna Caitanya das. Last I saw him he was married with several kids and living in Oakland somewhere. He got heavy into Roy Masters and came to view chanting as an external practice. But those phases don't last long. Maybe he is somewhere doing 64 a day and selling books as well.

 

I know what you mean about not fitting in. That's good though. I can't stand these prim and proper conservatives in their polyester pants. Just to Kumbyaish(sp?) for me. And what is up with their refusing some form of universal health care? Let's face it man, none of these guys are ever going to represent us fully. lesser of two evils or take out a thorn with a thorn. They all lie to us.

 

It's good that you are admitting defeat for beaten we are.

 

Jai Jah and Haribol

[theist 1]

I also wanted to say I offered a prayer for the spiritual and material wellbeing of your son, not that Krsna listens to me. But a devotees son is also a special soul in this world. may our blessed Lord please watch over him and give ease to your mind in this regard.

 

Hare Krsna

[stonehearted 0]

I remeber Krishna Chaitanya. And I remember when he was initiated. It was the spring of 1973. Here was this strong, beautiful, ex-Marine brahmachari (natch--he was with Sudama's party), and when Srila Prabhupada said, "Your name is Krishna Chaitanya das," the whole temple room gasped.

[theist 1]

He told me someone some "higher ups" told him they were going to ask Srila Prabhuapda if he could be named Krsna Caitanya das. Now I have an idea why. He was always straight however. And he sure drew the ladies eye.

[stonehearted 0]

Of course he was always straight. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I'm just saying he also caught Sudama's eye, for he (Sudama) had a strong aesthetic sense. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[theist 1]

sorry. I didn't think you implied otherwise. I wrote that for anyone else that may remember him. yeah Sudama I never really knew. One time around 1982 or so i cameout of a movie on Van ness Blvd. in SF. I was walking along and I noticed this guy sitting on a car hood wearing a big red cape and some other flamboyant garb and had a small crowd of guys around him. He suddenly turned and looked my right in the face. It was Sudama. I freaked and kept on walking.

 

Babhru, were you in Hawaii when Ramesvara came after Prabhupada left, in early 78 by any chance?

[stonehearted 0]

I was in Hawaii when Ramesvara won the bid to be GBC and "guru." While we had no GBC, I started a gurukula at the request of the devotees here. When Ramesvara came on the scene, I had to become something of a politician.

 

Why do you ask?

[theist 1]

I read your comment about working for the legal aid society and then I thought you may have been the devotee who i went through to see Ramesvara after one Sunday feast. I had been hearing all these rumors and saw my chance to hear from the 'top' on the issue. For me it was a pivotal event but i really wouldn't expect anyone else to remember.

[stonehearted 0]

Now I'm really curious, theist. I may be able to let Guess Guest go for a while, but now I really would like to know more about your identity.

 

Here's my time line in the '70s: I moved into the Honolulu temple some time before Gaura-purnima in 1970 and lived ther until after Prabhupada visited for a day in Oct. '72, when I went to our farm on the Big Island. Then Gaurasundar sent me to the mainland to go establish Krishna consciousness in Peru in Feb. of '73. I came back to Hawaii in Dec. '73, moved to the Big Island in Jan. of '75 and to Maui in Aug. '76. We moved back to Honolulu in Aug. '77, where I worked at the Legal Aid Society until I started the gurukula in Feb. '79. So when Ramesvara became GBC/"guru" for Hawaii, I was already running our gurukula. We left Hawaii for Bhaktivedanta Village in '84. So if you were in Honolulu between Aug. of '77 and spring '84, I was around. And if the guy who got you in to see Ramesvara had worked at Legal Aid, it was probably me. Care to remind me who you are? If so, write me at williamr@hawaii.edu. If not, no problem.

[theist 1]

Babhru,

 

The time line fits.I went there in 76. You wouldn't remember me and I doubt you ever even knew my name, if in deed you are that person. I was never formally intiated. I occasionally visted for Sunday feast.Around but not in the thick of things type. I just rememeber this nice bhakta who i talked to a few times and who worked for either legal aid or as I had rememebered it the ACLU at the time. I thought he was a lawyer however but perhaps not.

 

We probably know some of the same folks. Remember Jagat Prabhu? Used to surf with Hari Ballabva. I have often wondered what happened to him. Last I saw him he left for India but that was like 78 or so. He was famous for his lasagna. /images/graemlins/smile.gifSo many people we bump into it along the way.

 

I feel as though I've gotten to know you a bit through this board and I really appreciate you general perspective on things. So even if not then appreciate your association here on Audarya prabhu.

 

Glories to Prabhupada

[stonehearted 0]

I was aparalegal at Legal Aid from 8/77-2/79. There weren't any lawyers in the community at the time; I was the closest thing we had. (I had originally planned to go to UH Law when I finished my degree, but after working closely with lawyers for year and a half, I was questioning that plan when I was convinced to start the gurukula.)

 

Yes, I remember Jagat Prabhu; we were pretty good friends. And Hari Vallabha and I have been friends since 1970. Last I heard, sometimes he's in Hawaii, and sometimes in San Jose.

 

If you described yourself and gave me your name, I may remember you. Although I'm rather shy, I enjoyed speaking with folks who came to the Sunday feasts. then again, considering the number of devotees I've met since 1970, and the fact that since 1989 I've had 6,000 students, I may not. But you'e piqued my curiosity, so I'd like a chance.

[theist 1]

why not. John Franklin. When Srila Prabhupada left did you go to the farm on Kauai for the 24 hour kirtans?

[stonehearted 0]

John Franklin sounds familiar, but I'll let a corner of my memory work on it for a while. Thanks.

 

No, when Srila Prabhupada left, I helped with the festivals at the ISKCON center in Honolulu. I did attend a program with Siddhasvarupa and Sudama Vipra the night they left for Vrindavan, however.

[theist 1]

Were you there when Gaura Nitai deities were installed?

[stonehearted 0]

theist: Were you there when Gaura Nitai deities were installed?

 

Babhru: Yes. My wife and daughter were there, too. All the devotees camped under tarps for the fetival. Siddha asked me to be one of the priests. And those were beautiful Deities indeed. My friend Vidagdha Madhava and I were discussing Them just this morning. Apparently Siddha has Them at his center on Oahu.

 

Were you there, too?

[theist 1]

they even let me in. I think I got the two occasions confused. I also was in one tarp. I am now convinced you are the devotee that got me in to question Ramesvar. What a trip. Thanks Prabhu, that was a big day for me, very enlightening indeed. You were also in the room. Actually it was in that little shed just off from the Temple, to the right as you face the temple. I wish I could have filmed it. Nobody believes me when I tell them that at one point he became angry and stood up abruptly proclaiming "only 11 are qualified to offer diksa and that includes all other sampradayas". I knew then I had to avoid the magnificant 11 at all costs.