Meat-eating and Christianity

[AncientMariner 0]

 

 

I can't seem to find one Christian that believes animals have souls. They keep telling me that God gave us dominion over them so we can eat them all we want. I am not trying to cut down Christians but I can't believe how many of them believe that animals are just lifeless lumps of matter.

[theist 1]

Ask them to define what souls mean. They are a confused lot. The Christians who believe other wise have left the main body of Christianity. There are many of them who are vegetarian and believe in reincarnation etc.

 

The danger for them is the all pervasiveness of mayavad teachings.

 

Somehow we have to bridge this gap.Chaitanya's movement has what they need but the iconography is a stumbling block for them.

 

I believe Siddhasvarupananda's style is something all can learn from.

[theist 1]

Let them say they are the dominator. The bible is translated like that but the meaning is we are to be caretakers of the earth as the most advanced lifeform present. Good stewards who take care of the masters estate. You know like gardeners and those who tend for the herds, like that.

 

Their idea is "the Master put us in charge so now we can destroy the garden and eat the pets". Any thought of being the dominator proves to that extent we are still influenced by the demonic nature.

 

They are demons not denominators. Sorry but its true. Of course so am I. But we must understand our need to change.They have just institutionalized this misconception.

[debbie 0]

Ancient Mariner,

I am not a "Christian",and I have not claimed to be one, because I am still searching for my way to God.I have read in the Holy Bible, where there are certain animals that are to be eaten.But I must admit it really confuses me.I feel that animals have souls and feelings,just as we,as humans do.I admit, in fact, for most of my life, I have been blinded, and did not see.I guess that is why God is a forgiving God.It is odd,if I follow one path, pain and suffering is allowed, but the other, it is forbidden.I know it is up to me to choose the right one.Surely, I would hope,it would be the one of preserving of any life..

Debbie

[Mxyzptlk 0]

Debbie,

 

There's much to be said regarding this topic. Unfortunately, I don't have time at the moment for an in-depth analysis of The Bible and vegetarianism. I hardly know where to begin. But I can start by saying that the Bible has been mis-translated over the ages. For instance, there are 19 references to "meat" in the 4 Gospels. However, when we look at the original Greek, the words used were 'broma', 'brosis', 'trophe', and a few others, none of which refer to meat, but intead to "food", "nourishment", "the act of eating food", and so on. For instance, in John 4:8 it is said: "For his disciples were gone away into the city to buy meat." The actual Greek word being used here is 'trophe', which means nourishment. The Greek word for meat, or flesh, is 'kreas'. And you will find throughout the Bible that whenever the words meat or flesh are being used in their correct translation (from 'kreas'), there are strong admonitions against partaking of this substance. For instance, in Romans 14:20-21 it said: "For meat destroy not the work of God. All things are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offense. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." The original Greek word used here is 'kreas', or "flesh." The use of the word "brothers" can be taken in a broader sense to include the animals. The early Church Fathers, and later on, St. Francis of Acissi all considered the animals and birds to be our brothers. It wasn't until the 4th Century during the reign of Emperor Constantine that vegetarian Christians had to practice underground. Constantine was a meat-eater. He is also described as being a "maniac." Church histories abound with stories of how he would pour molten lead down the throats of Christian vegetarians for their chosen diet. He also murdered his wife by setting her in a vat of boiling water. Prior to his reign of terror, however, nearly all the Founding Fathers were vegetarian: Tertullian, Pliny, Origen, St. John Chrysostom, to name a few. As far as fish goes, this is also an interesting topic. Fish is meant to be used symbolically, in a mystical sense. It was used as a type of password amongst Christians.The Greek word for fish was "ichthus". Interestingly, Ichthus is an acronym for "Iesous Christos Theou Uios Soter". Which means, in English: "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior." Thus, the frequent Biblical references to fish are intended as symbolic of Christ, and have nothing to do with the act of eating a fish. The Last Supper is also an interesting topic. Jesus did not eat meat at the Last Supper. I'll have to look it up if you like, as it's been a few years since I read about this. But, from my hazy recollection, the Passover and the Last Supper were two separate events, which occured on two separate days. I believe there was mention of meat at the Passover, (a Jewish tradition), but not at the Last Supper. Again, I'd have to locate the book where I discovered this nugget. It's here in my library, but unfortunately, most of my books are in boxes right now, as I'm thinking of moving soon.

 

Anyway, hope this helps some. Oh...and as far as the part about animals not having souls, this is due to yet another mis-translation, this one from the Old Testament, Genesis, I believe. Again, I can look this up, if you like. When the actual truth is presented as it is, then there's no doubt that Jesus was a vegetarian, as were his genuine followers.

 

Mxyz (mix-yez)

[theist 1]

Mxyz,

 

You are a gold mine of info. I'll have questions for you on this. It would make for a nice book once compiled. I'll sign up as your first sale prabhu. Nudge nudge. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist 1]

There are Christians working in their faith for growth. I haven't been through this site yet but thought I would post the URL while the topic is ongoin.

 

http://christianveg.com/

 

[debbie 0]

Mxyz,

I am most interested in any info you have on this subject.I have read the Bible, or at least some of it,and admit, sometimes, I have not understood it completely.There are so many things,it seems that leaves questions in my mind, and I hope, you and the other posters, can clear them up for me. I realize, as I have seen on other threads, that different people can read the very same book, and get a entirely different meaning from it. When you sit,and think about it,it would be a little hard to believe that God made animals for human consumption, with no regards for the pain and suffering,that is incurred with killing.It seems I am looking at alot of things differently,now, that I had not done before.I will looking forward to any info you have, when you have time. Debbie

[debbie 0]

THEIST,

Thanks for the link. I have just visited the site, and there is some interesting reading.It seems,even some christians are getting the message..Thanks again Debbie

[theist 1]

anytime debbie, I haven't had a chance to go through it very much yet.

 

There are a lot of genuinly good folks in Christianity. I believe we will see a new wave in Christian teaching.

 

How is the diet change going?

[Gauracandra 1]

Here is my advice. No need to discuss whether animals have souls. Start off real simple. For instance, I once met some Jehovah Witnesses and they showed me a picture of a lamb and lion sitting next to each other in peace after Jesus returns. I asked "Why doesn't the lion eat the lamb?" And they said because when the Kingdom of God comes every creature will be at peace. I asked "Was this how it was in the Garden of Eden?" and they said yes. So I then said "So basically they were vegetarian in the Garden of Eden. And they had to accept this was true. And in fact this is the case. I have spoken with a number of groups - Jews, Seventh Day Adventists (who are vegetarian, mostly), etc... and they accept that Adam and Eve were in fact vegetarian. So I would approach it from that angle. The reply will be that after the flood God gave man permission to eat meat. But you can just say "Shouldn't we try to hold ourselves to the higher, original standard?"

[theist 1]

 

 

 

Genesis 1

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

 

 

In Genesis not only humans but the beasts were vegetarian. Perhaps someone (Mxyz) can give us the exact word used that is translated here(vs.29) as meat. That may help when we discuss with them.

 

It is also noteworthy that after God gave them dominion He told them to be vegetarians.

 

I agree with Gauracandra, keep it simple and noncontentious for best results.

 

 

 

[debbie 0]

Theist,

Thanks for asking.So far, so good.I am still continuing to eat vegetarian.I still have a few things to work on as far as making sure about hidden meat products is not present, but I am doing well, otherwise.It actually makes me feel so much better physically, and also knowing that I am not causing pain and suffering in animals, as well.My weight loss have stopped for now, but I am sure it will continue,in a while. It seems my life is changing quite a bit..But some changes,are for the better, I feel. Debbie

[Guest guest]

These are two interesting sites I was recently sent

one Jewish, the other Muslim.

If only the Christians, the Jews and the Muslims

stopped the killing of other sentient beings they might stop killing each other also.

Drop them an Email encouraging their efforts to get their fellow members to convert, and I'm sure it will go a long way to changing this kill for a kill mentality. They appreciate feedback.

 

http://www.jewishveg.com/recipes.html

http://www.islamicconcern.com/

[Guest guest]

 

Bible scholar encourages meatless faith

By The Associated Press

 

``Thanksgiving serves as a national myth about the salvific power of meat,'' complains Stephen Webb, a scholar who says the Bible supports vegetarianism. He finds the holiday spiritually vapid, ``more about our gratitude for the stuffed turkey than for the variety and abundance of food options God has given us.''

 

Besides, it's not even true that the Pilgrims feasted on turkey in 1621, he reports. They celebrated a ``vegetable-laden harvest'' by consuming corn mush, nuts, fruits, pumpkin, popcorn, squash and bread, with some venison and game birds merely ``on the side.''

 

A bit of flesh-eating may have been necessary for the Pilgrims or ancient Israelites to survive, Webb suggests, but that hardly describes modern Americans.

 

Webb teaches philosophy and religion at Wabash College in Indiana and chairs the Cleveland-based Christian Vegetarian Association. He develops a Christian case for vegetarianism in ``Good Eating: The Bible, Diet, and the Proper Love of Animals.''

 

Webb knows his view is difficult for conventional Christians to swallow, so he sharply distinguishes it from pagan-tinged vegetarianism and animal-rights zealotry.

 

Those movements make nature and animals divine rather than their Creator, or erase the biblical boundary between humans and other mammals, he says. Eastern religions add the factor of reincarnation: Animals are revered because they might have been human souls in past lives.

 

By biblical standards it's acceptable to use the labor and products of animals, Webb believes. ``Animals are here in part to serve us.'' But the Bible insists they're to be treated respectfully, as creatures of God.

 

Webb pooh-poohs the ``Jesus Was a Vegetarian'' campaign. If we take the New Testament at face value, Jesus ate fish, if not other flesh, although Webb notes liberal claims that fish-eating stories were ``late additions'' to the Gospels.

 

The Last Supper was a vegetarian meal, Webb points out.

 

One Webb slogan is a twist on ``What Would Jesus Do?'' (W.W.J.D.): ``What Would Jesus Eat?'' Another twist: ``The unexamined meal is not worth eating.''

[Guest guest]

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, "wherein there is life", I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

 

This is a modern mistranslation the original text is "which is a living soul" not 'wherein there is life' there whole philosophy of animals having no souls is defeated on the very first page of their bible, Plus older bibles do say that those who were considered more devoted abstained from eating meat.

syama

 

[Guest guest]

Still is not a part of the Vedas hymns of sacrifice? What changed the consciousness of some Hindus?

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Well, if animals have no souls, how do they display signs of life? If they're just lifeless lumps of matter, they should be able to produce life using the useless lumps of matter that are available everywhere.

 

 

I can't seem to find one Christian that believes animals have souls. They keep telling me that God gave us dominion over them so we can eat them all we want. I am not trying to cut down Christians but I can't believe how many of them believe that animals are just lifeless lumps of matter.

[suchandra 1]

 

.............................they might stop killing each other also.

 

Rape of the Constitution, Article 48

 

It is especially demoniac that all of India's states just that state where Lord Caitanya appeared, West Bengal, allows cow slaughter.

 

Article 48 wants the state to enact prohibition of cowslaughter; Kerala, West Bengal and Nagaland have not passed any such act, and in several other states the act is openly violated ; India is in fact a beef-exporter.