Unsure of my spiritual direction

[raga 0]

You may want to read "Women Saints in Gaudiya Vaishnavism" by Jagadananda Das. http://www.granthamandira.org/~jagat/articles/showarticle.php?id=57

[debbie 0]

Shiva,

I have not in any way said that anytbing you have said is or is not in the scriptures.As you know, I am no expert, and I do not in any way claim to be at this point.I am still learning, and I have said many times, if I have a question,and something I have read is questionable to me, I will ask for some one to explain.I am sure many of the posters here, are that knowledgeable, so that is why I rely on them for help and guidance.I am sorry if you felt I was saying you were not telling me the truth. I also have my opinions about things, as you do, as well..Please do not take offense in anything I say. I am here with all of you, to hopefully learn more and more what I need to know.I have started by reading the "Bhagavad-gita". I know I have a long way to go to really understanding things I need to know..That is why I come to all of you for help.Just because I do not particularly agree on some things, that does not mean, I will not value your help on everything.As I have told you, I need all the good help I can get..

Debbie

[Guest guest]

 

calm down swamiji,

 

my statement isn't an attack on women or sex,

it is simply the fact,just like a maserati

is built more for speed then a ford pickup truck.

 

The difference's between men and women are real,

the politically correct vision that try's to make

men and women appear to be the same is simply

not true.

 

While there are exceptions generally men are more inclined to the priestly caste then women, this is a fact,

not that women are inferior ,just different.

 

Men are generally built for strength,women for

pleasure.

 

This is the natural order, it is the reflection of transcendental realities, eternal realities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[karthik_v 0]

Debbie,

 

To give him his due, Shiva is indeed correct that some "scriptures" display a terrible attitude towards women. It is another story that all such "scriptures" were man made at some point in time. What we should remember is that such "scriptures" have been used as justification, for several centuries, to hoist unspeakable crimes on women. And this happened even before the Muslims entered India.

 

The beauty of Hinduism is that it is dynamic. It is not stuck on the dogmatic pronouncements of ONE founder. We can and should reject what is not compatible with our morality and still we would be left with an ocean of spiritual treasure in Hinduism. Even better, there won't be any fatwa issued against you for rejecting some tenets.

[Guest guest]

hey i have no problem with any type of criticism, no offense taken.

 

the things i post are based on my research and experience,

not a sentimental,emotional outburst based on a lack of

real experience.

 

The point of your original query as to the meaning of the scriptural reason for saying that women are considered a lower birth is a valid one.

 

Naysayers dismiss the vedic conclusions due to the inexperience of their own with transcendental reality.

 

The Vedic conclusions concerning women are generalizations,

they do not mean that all women are less able to transcend their conditioning then all men.

 

Everybody is different ,but generally women are not as inclined for serious spiritual study and practice as men.

 

These are facts that can be confirmed, there are far less women who follow the renounced orders in any religion,

Just like there are far more women who read romance novels then men.

 

Not that one is better then the other,that is an individual consideration.

The differences are real,women desire marriage stronger then men,again a generalization, but true nonetheless.

 

The person who engages in the path of bhakti-yoga

transcends all material conditioning , becoming

more and more awakened to the eternal self,

and less and less affected by his/her karmic

condition.

 

The conditioned soul is compared to a gem that has been covered over by layers of grime.

By the practice of bhakti yoga the grime accumulated

through lifetimes of identifying with the body and mind

is cleansed away, leaving only the pure self,

the eternal self.

[karthik_v 0]

Shiva,

 

 

calm down swamiji

 

 

Thanks for designating me as a swamiji. I never thought I would ever receive that salutation. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

The difference's between men and women are real

 

 

Who said it isn't?

 

 

the politically correct vision that try's to make men and women appear to be the same is simply not true.

 

 

Well, that is not my vision. I am all for women remaining feminine and men remaining masculine. I am all for robust and sensuous sex, that stems from such a dichotomy. Are we on the same wavelength? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

men are more inclined to the priestly caste then women

 

 

Sterotype. What if caste itself doesn't exist? Or what if priests don't exist? Do you think that would be the end of spiritualism? I don't think so. Perhaps, there will be real spiritualism where people don't indulge in commerce because they think it is their birth right.

 

 

Men are generally built for strength,women for pleasure.

 

 

Whose pleasure, may I ask? And do you think that women derive no pleasure out of love making?

[Guest guest]

 

relax ese,

 

The female body is made for pleasure, they can have sex continually, men can only go for so long, this is a fact.

The female body is designed to give the maximum amount of pleasure, the male body is not.

 

this is reality, is it not.

[raga 0]

 

Everybody is different ,but generally women are not as inclined for serious spiritual study and practice as men.

 

These are facts" that can be confirmed, there are far less women who follow the renounced orders in any religion,

Just like there are far more women who read romance novels then men.

 

 

1. Pure statistics tell us that women attend church services etc. more often than men do. There are dozens upon dozens of studies of this. Look it up in any search engine and you'll find plenty of articles on it. Type in "women are more religious" in Google and you get 10+ pages of hits, type in "men are more religious" and you get four hits, including one on how "gay men are more religious than are heterosexual men and lesbians".

 

2. The number of adherents in the renounced orders of any religion do not mean anything. In the eyes of many cultures renounced order is even not befitting for women. It is an external consideration.

 

Aside this, for example in many Buddhist traditions (for instance in Thailand) there are many more nuns than there are monks. You know it very well that in many Hindu traditions (such as the main schools of Vaishnavism), women are not formally initiated as sannyasins. Does anyone know of any statistics for the Christian tradition of monks and nuns?

 

[Guest guest]

 

Yes more women go to church in the west, this is due to women being more emotional then men, they are more inclined also to go to church for social reasons, there are many reasons, not that women are more spiritual,that is a fallacy.

 

in fact the serious student's of spirituality(as opposed to those who attend church to get something from god)

are those in most ,not all, but most cases are those who dedicate their lives to their faith.

 

In hinduism this means those who are seriouslly

dedicated to study and practice, not neccessarily

taking the renounced order, how many women are posting here,or any hindu website, most are men, this is the natural order.

 

The idea that women are more religious is poppycock.

the numbers of women attending church in the west

does not tell the real story, they have a more natural submission to authority then men, this causes them to be more likely to seek that authority in church.

 

these various reasons are in fact real, the truth is that

in this day and age it is a rare thing to find a serious person on the path of self realization, be they men or women.

[debbie 0]

jndas,

Thanks for your comments.When I asked this question, I didn't realize what problems it might cause. It seems to be a debate..I am sorry if I caused interruptions. When I finish reading the Bhagavad-gita, could you suggest what I should study next? Thanks in advance. Debbie

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

Who is more religious?

 

 

Here is a picture of the devotees attending the ISKCON temple in Chennai. Count how many men you see in this picture. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Anyone who has attended religious functions in India knows there are always 3 times as many women attending than men. Women are more devotional than men. Men are usually more analytical.

 

[raga 0]

Debbie,

 

In your quest for the truth you will inevitably face debate and controversy, regardless of the path you choose to pursue. After all, in a world of variegatedness it is inevitable that controversy will arise due to differing opinions. Whatever you face, do not be discouraged, but try to find someone who can help you discover the truth about the subject matter.

 

Also we must try to understand that although differences of opinion arise in a world of religious plurality, God is never bound to take sides with any given point of view, but is always receptive to everyone who with love and sincerity approaches Him. Whatever helps you think of Him with love and devotion, stick to that for the time being, yet keep your eyes open for new and deeper insights. If you come to face something which cannot be satisfactorily understood for the time being, set that aside and pursue that which you find attractive and inspiring in God and religion, and the rest will eventually be understood in a proper perspective.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

Thanks for your comments.When I asked this question, I didn't realize what problems it might cause. It seems to be a debate..

 

 

Don't worry. There will always be differing opinions, with some people on the far left and others on the far right. The majority of the people will hold moderate views somewhere between the two extremes.

 

 

When I finish reading the Bhagavad-gita, could you suggest what I should study next? Thanks in advance. Debbie

 

 

There are literally hundreds of texts held holy by Hindus which you could benefit from studying. I would suggest you begin by thoroughly studying the Bhagavad Gita (to understand philosophical concepts), and then go on to studying some of the bhakti texts such as the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

[Guest guest]

that does not mean anything.

how many of the men are working ?

how many of the women are there for social reasons ?

To determine the inherent spirituality of a person

you cannot judge that by the amount of church going.

 

The test is how much effort does the individual

put into actual spirtual growth.

 

While more women may go to church the men at home will be more likely to read from the shastra, the women are less likely to be as serious as the men, while outwardly showing more "devotion ", like a lot of us know from our family experience it is more often then not, all about appearences

and less about substance.

 

why deny the shastra ?

The shastra is coming dowm from god,

Clearly our own judgement is affected by the propensity to make mistakes, the shastra is faultless

and is better suited to give truth.

 

Shastra clearly tells us that women in general

are not as serious as men in spiritual undertaking,

whatever may appear to be truth to your vision,

should be understood to be under the influence

of the propensity to make mistakes,our vision is not perfect.

 

The shastric conclusions are the conclusions of the personality of godhead, not as some suggest " a collection

of disperate human speculation".

 

When we deny the truth of the shastra we do so

under the influence of the modes of nature,

passion and ignorance.

[karthik_v 0]

Shiva,

 

 

The female body is made for pleasure, they can have sex continually, men can only go for so long, this is a fact. The female body is designed to give the maximum amount of pleasure, the male body is not.

 

this is reality, is it not.

 

 

 

The arousal mechanisms are also different, aren't they? Once again, you have reiterated your statement, highlighted in bold above, without answering my question: "To whom"? If the answer is "men", then there is no need to push the women down the hierarchy. There is no need to hate sex either. You see, the 2 phenomenon are inter-related. Both stem from the fear of the unknown and if I may borrow the words of Jijaji, those who inherit such notions "alternate between fear and fascination for sex" - without ever getting to know what it is.

[raga 0]

 

Women are more devotional than men. Men are usually more analytical.

 

 

While analysis, renunciation and so forth certainly carry merit and are helpful, people tend to have confusion over their position vis-a-vis bhakti. The admiration of and aspiration for expertise in analysis and renunciation is bhakti mixed with jnana, not unadulterated bhakti. A sincere prayer from the core of the heart will do more than decades of analysis, and a flower given with devotion will do more than a lifetime of renunciation.

 

We, those of us with complicated minds and intellect such as myself, tend to make it unnecessarily complicated at times. Think about the gopis' sublime love Krishna, and think about the meaning of KISS. Let me think about it next time I think intellectual prowess is equal to success in devotion.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

Shastra clearly tells us that women in general are not as serious as men in spiritual undertaking...

 

 

Please cite the relevant statements from shastra so we can deal with actual scripture and not personal opinion.

[raga 0]

 

When we deny the truth of the shastra we do so

under the influence of the modes of nature,

passion and ignorance.

 

 

Remember the discussion we had on the subject matter of guru-tattva? It is intriquing to note that now you preach big time about the authority of the shastra, when in the guru-tattva discussion, whenever we presented shastric statements on the necessity of accepting a guru to properly understand the scripture and the path of bhakti, you just ignored it wholesale, presenting your fanciful interpretations.

[stonehearted 0]

shiva writes: " the things i post are based on my research and experience, not a sentimental,emotional outburst based on a lack of real experience."

 

What research? Cite something or sit down. You admit yourself you're making generalizations, then you say, "It's fact--the natural order." This demonstrates just the lack of critical thought we try to train our students to avoid.

 

What experience? What you post on this subject are cultural truisms. Honest examination of the facts shows that, especially in kali-yuga, the age of quarrel and hypocrisy, even such generalizations as can be supported by scripture no longer hold.

 

 

[debbie 0]

jndas,

Thanks.Sometimes in trying to study and learn some things that are new to me, I admit I get a little confused, because there are so many of you, that know so much more than I do on religious subjects.Sometimes I just have to listen to what my heart tells me,if what is said is truth or fiction.In any case, I will continue to read and study and with the help of some of you,find my path to God,and a better understanding how I can serve Him.I just wish I had someone around here who could give me proper guidance I need.

jndas,after reading all and thoroughly understanding the Bhagavad-Gita(I want to take this in slowly),the other texts you mentioned,"bhakti texts",do you think they are available in the U.S.,or online? I am now reading the Gita online, english translation,of course.Do you know if this is in the completed form..I think this one has about 18 chapters.Thanks for your help, and for many of the posters knowledgeable replys. Debbie

[Avinash 0]

>>I am now reading the Gita online, english translation,of course.Do you know if this is in the completed form..<<

 

What is the web site? Bhagavad Gita has 18 chapters and 700 verses in total.

[karthik_v 0]

Debbie,

 

You will find Bhagavad Gita As It Is translated and commented by Srila online at http://asitis.com/

 

This site has free downloads of Srimad Bhagavatam and Caitanya Caritamrta, as well as many cook books and other books written by SP http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=3 The same site also has many devotional songs and also the diacritical fonts which you have to download so as to read the transliteration correctly. If you need print format, then they are all available from the nearest ISKCON temple.

[Guest guest]

 

i'll answer karthik and raga first because it's quicker for me.

 

Karthick, your reading things into what I said that aren't there.

It's simple, the female body is designed to give the maximum

amount of pleasure to the person within that body.

They have the ability to enjoy physically more then men,

that should be obvious, they have breasts and men do not, they can have sex continually while men cannot.

 

The shastra states that those who have very lustfull desire

take birth as female, in order to satisfy that lust.

 

The rest of your diatribe,something unintelligible about fear and fascination ?

 

Whatever.

 

Raga, you brought up an old subject that had many devotees posting quotes from both shastra and guru

showing an opinion that was the opposite of yours,

wasn't that enough.

[raga 0]

 

I just wish I had someone around here who could give me proper guidance I need.

 

 

It is not very likely that anyone will step ahead, saying "Follow me, I will volunteer!" In fact, if someone does that, I suggest you proceed with caution. It is a matter of your heart. You must find someone in whom you trust and whose instructions you feel illuminate your mind and heart.

[Guest guest]

this is for the others

 

http://www.chakra.org/articles/pre/women/old/980120chastity.htm

 

This article gives many quotes and I believe gives my

stance perfectly.

 

That generally speaking women are more materialistic then men, but that those who engage sincerely in bhakti yoga

are freed from the karmic effects of their condition.