Dialectic Spiritualism Highlights 3

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I'm starting #3 here because my slow modem takes awhile to load long threads. This way, it's easier on the viewers and the server.

 

I am transcribing "Dialectic Spiritualism" for my own purposes. Below you will find highlights from that book. Check back for additions.

 

I would prefer that no replies be made. It will be a long enough thread without replies. These threads are simply provided for the benefit of those who might benefit from them.

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Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz believed that truth could be represented by an exact, mathematical science of symbols, which could form a universal language, a linguistic calculus. He believed in a rational world and an empirical world, and that each stood opposed to the other. He felt that each had its own truth, which applied to itself, and that each had to be understood according to its own logic. Thus for Leibnitz, there are two kinds of truth. One is the truth of reason, which is a priori. This is innate knowledge which we have prior to and independent of our experience in the material world. The other truth is posteriori, which is knowledge acquired from experience. This is accidental knowledge in the sense that it is not necessary.

Srila Prabhupada: The real truth is that God has a plan, and one has to be taught that plan by one who knows it. This is explained in Caitanya-caritamrta:

 

“Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this living entity naturally awakens.” (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madh. 22.107)

 

The truth is there, but we have forgotten it. Through the process of chanting and hearing, we can revive the truth, which is that we are eternal servants of Krsna. The living entity is good by nature because he is part and parcel of the supreme good, but due to material association, he has become conditioned. Now we have to again draw forth this goodness through the process of Krsna consciousness.

Syamasundara dasa: As an innate, or a priori truth, Leibnitz gives the exmple of a triangle: three angles of a triangle must always equal two right angles. this is truth of reason which is necessarily permanent. The other type of truth is gathered by experience and is called accidental, or unnecessary. For example, we see that snow is white, but it is also possible that snow may be red.

Srila Prabhupada: It is also experienced that the three angles of a triangle must always equal two.

Syamasundara dasa: But this truth exists independently.

Srila Prabhupada: How is that? Not everyone knows how a triangle is formed. Only when you study geometry do you understand. You cannot ask any child or any man who has no knowledge of geometry.

Syamasundara dasa: Whethere the man knows it or not, this truth exists.

Srila Prabhupada: But truth by definition exists. It is not this truth or that truth. You may now it or not, but truth exists. So why is he using this particular example?

Syamasundara dasa: Because there is also another kind of truth, which may say that snow is white, but that truth is not absolute because snow could conceivably be red. However, a triangle must always have certain innate properties. That is necessary truth.

Srila Prabhupada: Any mathematical calculation is like that. Why use this example? Two plus two equals four. That is always the truth according to mathematical principles.

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz was trying to prove that there are certain truths that we cannot deny, that exist independent of our knowledge, and that are fundamental. There are other truths, like snow is white, which may or not be true because our senses deceive us.

Srila Prabhupada: But that is due to our defective senses. It is a fact that snow is white. Now why should it be red? In any case, we have no experience of red snow. Pure snow is white by nature. It may assume another color due to contact with something else, but actually it is white. It is an innate truth that the three angles of a triangle must always equal two right angles, and it is also an innate truth that snow is white, that water is liquid, that stone is hard, and that sugar is sweet. These are fundamental truths that cannot be changed. Similarly, the living entity is the eternal servant of God, and that is his natural position. Water may become hard due to temperature changes, but as soon as the temperature rises, the water again turns into a liquid. thus the liquidity of water is the truth, the constitutional position of water, because water by deefinition is a liquid. Similarly, the whiteness of snow is truth, and the servitude of the living entity is truth. In the conditional world, the living entity serves maya, and that is not truth. We cannot consider that there are two types of truth. Truth is one. What we take to be not truth is maya. There cannot be two truths. Maya has no existence, but it appears to be true or factual due to our imperfect senses. A shadow has no existence, but it resembles whatever projects it. In the mirror, you may see your face in exactly the same way that it exists, but that is not truth. The truth is one, and there cannot be two. What is taken for truth at the present moment is called maya.

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz says that innate truths are governed by the principle of contradiction. That is, the opposite of the truth is impossible to conceive.

Srila Prabhupada: The opposite is maya.

Syamasundara dasa: For instance, it is impossible to conceive that the three angles of a triangle cannot equal two right angles.

Srila Prabhupada: My point is that there are not two types of truth. When you think that there are, you are mistaken. When you think that two plus two equals five, you are mistaken. two plus two is always four, and that is the truth. Similarly, snow is always white, and when you think that snow is red, it is the same as thinking that two plus two equals five. It is an untruth. You cannot say that the whiteness of snow is another type of truth. You may make a mistake by thinking snow to be red, but this mistake cannot invalidate the truth that snow is white or that water is liquid. There is one truth, and any other truth is but a shadow. It is not true. Our language must be exact. You can see your face in the mirror as exactly the same, but it is a shadow only; therefore it is not truth. You cannot say that the reflection of your face in the mirror is another type of truth.

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz would call this type of truth conditional truth.

Srila Prabhupada: That conditional truth is not the truth. For instance, the living entity is trying to become master of the material world. He thinks, “I am monarch of all I survey.” That is not the truth. The truth is that he is the eternal servant of God. You cannot say that because he is trying to imitate God that he is God. There cannot be a second God. God is one, and that is the Absolute Truth. Our point is that we do not accept the proposition that truth is two. There are relative truths, but Krsna is the Absolute Truth. Krsna is the substance, and everything is emanating from Krsna by Krsna’s energy. Water is one of Krsna’s energies, but that energy is not the Absolute Truth. Water is always a liquid, but that is relative truth. Absolute Truth is one. Leibnitz should more precisely say that there is Absolute Truth and relative truth, not that there are two types of truth.

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Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz says that space and time are mere appearances and that the ultimate reality is different.

Srila Prabhupada: The ultimate reality is Krsna, sarva-karana-karanam (Brahma-samhita 5.1), the cause of all causes.

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz calls the ultimate entities monads. The word “monad” means “unity” or, “oneness.” He says that the stuff out of which even atoms are made are all monads, the ultimate particles.

Srila Prabhupada: That small particle is not final. Within that particle there is Krsna. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham (Brahma-samhita 5.35).

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz says that these monads are individual, conscious, active, and alive, and that they range in quality from the lowest type (matter) through the higher types, such as souls, to the highest, which is God.

Srila Prabhupada: Does he state that within the atom there is the soul?

Syamasundara dasa: His theory is that even the atoms are composed of these monads, which possess activity, consciousness, individuality, and other inherent qualities. The monad is the force or activity that constitutes the essence of a substance.

Srila Prabhupada: We understand from Brahma-samhita that Krsna is within the atom. That is Krsna who is the substance, the summum bonum. He is smaller than the smallest, and is within everything. That is His all-pervasive nature.

Syamasundara dasa: Then how are the individualities accounted for?

Srila Prabhupada: Every individual soul is awarded a portion of independence because each is part and parcel of God. Thus he has the quality of independence, but in minute quantity. That is his individuality. We coinsider the atom to be the smallest particle of matter, but we say that Krsna is the force within the atom. Leibnitz is suggesting that some force or power exists, but we are directly saying that the force or power is Krsna.

Syamasundara dasa: But he says that the force or power in each atom is individual, separate, different.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is so. By His omnipotence, Krsna can expand Himself in innumberable forms. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam (Brahma-samhita 5.33). The word ananta means unlimited, and it is clearly said andantara-stham: He is within the atom.

Syamasundara dasa: Is he within each atom as an individual entity different from every other entity?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, if Krsna is there, He is individual. There are varieties of atoms, and Syamasundara dasa: How is each Krsna different? How is it He is an individual in each of the atoms?

Srila Prabhupada: Why is He not an individual? Krsna is always an individual. He is always a person, the Supreme Person, and He can expand Himself innumerably.

Syamasundara dasa: And is Paramatma a person?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, every expansion is a person. We are all atomic expansions of K§øëa, and we are all individual persons. Paramatma is another expansion, but that is a different kind of expansion.

Syamasundara dasa: Is the jivatma, the individual soul, also a person?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. If he were not a person, then how would you account for the differences? We are all different persons. You may agree with my opinion or not, but in any case you are an individual. Krsna is also an individual. Nityo nityanam. There are innumerable individual souls, but He is the supreme individual person. Now Leibnitz may say that within the atom there is a monad, or whatever––you could call it by any name you want––but within the atom the force is Krsna.

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz maintains that the lowest type of monad is found with material atoms, and then they progress to higher monads, which are souls.

Srila Prabhupada: Directly we say Krsna, and that is automatically spiritual.

Syamasundara dasa: He says that each monad has an inner or mental activity, a spiritual life.

Srila Prabhupada: As soon as we say Krsna, we include everything.

Syamasundara dasa: So even within material atoms, there is a spiritual life, a spiritual force?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, force means spiritual force.

Syamasundara dasa: He says that all bodies are ultimate quantums of force, and that the essential nature of all bodies is force.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that force is the spirit soul. Without the spirit soul, the body has no force. It is a dead body.

Syamasundara dasa: But even within the dead body there are forces. There is the force of decomposition.

Srila Prabhupada: Krsna is within the atom, and the body is a combination of so many atoms; therefore the force for creating other living entities is also there even in the process of decomposition. When the individual soul’s force is stopped within a particular body, we call that body a dead body. Still, Krsna’s force is there because the body is a combination of atoms.

Syamasundara dasa: He says that what is manifested to our senses, what occupies space and exists in time, is ony an effect of the basic nature, which is transcendental to the physical nature. Physical nature is just an effect of a higher nature.

Srila Prabhupada: Physical nature is a by-product. as I have explained, according to your desire, you receive or create a body. Physical nature is subservient to the soul.

Syamasundara dasa: According to Leibnitz, these monads create bodies.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, at the time of death, you think in a certain way, and your next body is created. Therefore you create your next body according to your karma.

Syamasundara dasa: But does the monad of of a hydrogen molecule, for instance, create its own body? Does it only accidentally become part of a water molecule?

Srila Prabhupada: Nothing is accidental.

Syamasundara dasa: Then does it also desire to become a water molecule? Does the hydrogen desire to combine with oxygen and become water?

Srila Prabhupada: No. The ultimate desire is of Krsna. If you take it in that way, Krsna is within every atom, and therefore Krsna wants whatever is to be. Therefore he wills that these two elements become one, and therefore the molecules combine to create water, or whatever. Thus there is a creation, and again there is another creation, and so on. In any case, the ultimate brain governing all creation is Krsna.

Syamasundara dasa: But does the hydrogen molecule have an independent desire?

Srila Prabhupada: No. Because Krsna is within the atoms, they combine. It is not that the atoms as matter are individually willing to combine; rather, because Krsna is within the atoms, He knows that by certain combinations, certain creations will result.

Syamasundara dasa: But does the individual soul have a little independence to choose?

Srila Prabhupada: No. Bhagavad-gita states that when the individual soul wants to act, Krsna gives the orders. Man proposes, and God disposes.

Syamasundara dasa: So we have no free will?

Srila Prabhupada: Not without the sanction of Krsna. Without Him, we cannot do anything. Therefore, He is the ultimate cause.

Syamasundara dasa: But I thought you have been saying that we have a little independence.

Srila Prabhupada: We have the independence in the sense that we may deny or affirm, but unless Krsna sanctions, we cannot do anything.

Syamasundara dasa: If we desire something, we take a body because of that desire. Now, can a hydrogen molecule desire to become a part of water and be given a body accordingly? Does it have the independence to desire something?

Srila Prabhupada: As far as we understand from the Vedas––andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham (Brahma-samhita 5.35)–– Krsna is within the paramanu. It is not stated that the soul is within the paramanu.

Syamasundara dasa: Then the individual soul is not present within the atom?

Srila Prabhupada: No. But Krsna is present.

Syamasundara dasa: then Leibnitz’s view does not accord with the Vedas?

Srila Prabhupada: No.

Syamasundara dasa: Is this because he states that in matter there is also this kind of individuality?

Srila Prabhupada: That individuality is in Krsna. As I have stated, Krsna knows that a certain element will be formed when so many atoms combine. It is not the individual soul enacting this, but Krsna Himself directly.

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Syamasundara dasa: He states that unlike the other nomads, God is absolute necessity and eternal truth, and he is governed by the law of contradiction. That is to say, it is impossible to conceive of no God.

Srila Prabhupada: The atheists say that there is no God, although God is there. Unless God is there, where is the idea of God coming from? The atheist refuses to accept God. Similarly, the impersonalists refuse to accept a Supreme Personality of Godhead. Unless the idea of personality is there, how can they consider God to be impersonal? All this is due to frustration.

 

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Syamasundara dasa: For Aristotle, the goal of action is to realize our potential and attain the greatest happiness or pleasure. Since God created man for self-realization, it is realization that will bring him satisfaction.

Srila Prabhupada: This means that in the beginning God created man imperfect. Otherwise, why is there need for self-realization?

Syamasundara dasa: A piece of wood has the potential to become fire. It is not fire until it is kindled. Man is similar.

Srila Prabhupada: We say that the living entity is part and parcel of God, and if God is all good, the living entity is also all good. A part of gold cannot be iron; it also must be gold. However, the part is not equal to the whole. A gold earring is also gold, but it is not as great as the gold mine. Nevertheless, the quality of the gold earing and the quality of gold in the gold mine are the same. If God is perfect, the living entity must also be perfect in quality. If God has the quality of goodness, the living entity must ahve it also. Why should he be imperfect? That would indicate that God is unjust. Why should God create something that has to come to the perfectional point by realization?

Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle would say that the activities of the mind are pure and perfect, but that those of the body and matter are impure and imperfect. Therefore one must realize himself through the activities of the mind alone.

Srila Prabhupada: No, the mind is never perfect. The mind’s business is to accept this and reject that, and therefore it is very flickering. The mind is subtler than the body, but the mind is not the soul, nor is the mind perfect. Above the mind there is intelligence, and above the intelligence there is the soul. That soul is perfect in quality, and it has all the qualities of God in minute quantity.

Syamasundara dasa: By mind, Aristotle means the rational faculty of intelligence.

Srila Prabhupada: Intelligence is above the mind. Intelligence controls the mind, and intelligence is of the soul. Therefore the whole background is the soul.

Syamasundara dasa: The mind must act or contemplate in accordance with logic. Logic is defined as the method of drawing correct inferences.

Srila Prabhupada: The mind may logically accept something and again logically reject it. Where, then, is perfect logic?

Syamasundara dasa: Perfect logic is simply a method for finding the truth.

Srila Prabhupada: But the mind is constantly accepting and rejecting. How can it ascertain the truth according to logic? If our authority is the mind, does this mean tha the mind of everyone is an authority? The mind may constantly search, but it will never be successful because the truth is beyond its reach. A follower of the Vedas does not accept this speculative method as a path to truth or perfection.

Hayagriva dasa: For both Plato and Aristitle, God is known by reason, not by revelation or religious experiences.

Srila Prabhupada: We are all limited, and God is unlimited; therefore we cannot understand God by our limited sensory powers. Consequently, God must be known by revelation.

 

“Material sense cannot appreciate Krsna’s holy name, form qualities, and pastimes. When a conditioned soul is awakened to Krsna consciousness and renders service by using his tongue to chant the Lord’s holy name and taste the remnants of the Lord’s food, the tongue is purified, and one gradually comes to understand who Krsna really is.” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.234)

 

It is not possible to know God by mental speculation. When we engage in His service he reveals Himself. Sri Krsna says:

 

“I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency [yoga-maya]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible.” (Bg. 7.25)

 

It is a fact that unless God reveals Himself, he is not known. Therefore he appears, and great authorities like Byasadeva, Narada, Sukadeva Gosvami, Ramanujacarya, Madvacarya, and Caitanya Mahaprabhu––great scholars and transcendentalists––accept Him as He reveals Himself. Arjuna saw God face to face, and he accepted Him. When we are freed by our service, God reveals Himself.

Hayagriva dasa: Well, Aristotle emphasizes man’s use of reason, and he sees man’s happiness depending on acting in a rational way, which is the way of virtue and intellectual insight. there is a suggestion of sense control, but no bhakti. Is it possible to atain happiness simply by controlling the senses with the mind?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and that is the process of becoming a human being. Animals are ignorant of this process, and they act only for their sense gratification. Their only business is eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. Through proper guidance, a human being can engage in contemplation, but he should be guided by authorities, otherwise he may contemplate with his limited senses for many millions of years and not be able to understand God.

Hayagriva dasa: But for happiness, or ananda, isn’t bhakti essential?

Srila Prabhupada: God is full ananda, full bliss. Sac-cid-ananda. He is eternal and in full knowledge of everything. Unless we come in contact with God, there is no question of ananda. Raso vai saù. From the Vedic literatures, we understand that God is the unlimited reservoir of all pleasure; consequently, when we come in contact with God, we will taste that pleasure. Material pleasure is only a perverted reflection of the real pleasure.

Syamasundara dasa: Rather than personal guidance, Aristotle emphasized rational logic.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, but when you are guided, you have to sacrifice your logic to accept the superior logic of your guide.

Syamasundara dasa: He felt that the mind can be its own guide.

Srila Prabhupada: As I said, the mind will carry you this way and that. In Bhagavad-gita, Arjuna says that the mind is more difficult to control than the wind. If a horse is not controlled, if it is allowed to run at will, it will cause some disaster. When the horse is guided, it can take you to your destination. We should therefore know how to control the mind by the intelligence.

Syamasundara dasa: But because the mind is an aspect of God, we find our perfection or happiness in the contemplation of God.

Srila Prabhupada: Everything is an aspect of God. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna points out that He has eight separated energies. So why stress the mind? Because we have lost God’s association, we are all searching after Him. We are struggling, but we do not know why. This is due to ignorance. If, by good fortune, we chance to meet a bona fide guru, the guru can inform us, “You are searching after God. This is the way. You only have to follow.” It is then that we can become happy.

Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle believed that the truth is inherent or innate within everything. For him, truth is the agreement of knowledge with reality. It corresponds with things in the objective world.

Srila Prabhupada: If truth is within everything, then it must be drawn out. However, it is not drawn out by matter but by spirit. This means that the help of a superior energy is necessary. According to Bhagavad-gita, the living entity is the superior energy, and matter is the inferior. It is the inferior energy that must be controlled by the superior. Both God and the living entities are eternal, but God is the Supreme Eternal. Living entities are nitya-krsna-dasa, eternal servants of God. When they tend to disobey God, they suffer. If we want to use our logic, we can understand that through our independent action, we have failed. Therefore we must take the advice of superior intelligence. That advice is given in Bhagavad-gita. It is not that we can attain the truth through our own independent speculatin. If we want to know who our fatehr is, we may speculate forever, but it is much simpler to ask our mother. Otherwise, we may go on searching and searching for millions of years and never know. What is the point in all this vain research? We should conclude that insofar as we are in the material, illusory condition, it is our duty to take help from God or His representative, who does not set forth anything that is not originally spoken by God. For instance, God says, “Surrender unto Me,” and God’s representative says, “Surrender to God.” If a rascal says, “I am God,” he should be kicked. The living entities are part and parcel of God, and a part can never become the whole. A real representative of God acknowledges himself as the servant of God, and he requests everyone to surrender unto God. for perfect knowledge, we have to take guidence either directly from God, as Arjuna did, or from God’s representative. Then we will be successful in ascertaining the truth.

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Syamasundara dasa: Because he equates the soul’s immortality with reason, Aristotle believes that it is only the rational soul, the human soul, that is immortal. Animals also have souls, but he saw them limited to sense, desire, and animation.

Srila Prabhupada: Animals are also rational. If a dog enters my room, and I say, “Out!” the dog immediately understands and goes away. How can we say that there is no ratinality at work? If I place my finger before an ant, that ant will turn away immediately.. If you give a cow meat, the cow will not touch it. the cow understands that its food consists of grasses and grains. Animals have rationality, but one aspect of ratinality is lacking: an animal cannot think of God. This is the main difference between animals and men. A man’s rationality is so developed that he can think of God, whereas an animal cannot. But we should not think that the souls of animals are not immortal. This theory has given the Christians a basis for killing animals, but they cannot prove that an animal’s soul is irrational or mortal. A man eats, sleeps, defends, and mates, and an animal does the same. So what is the difference?

Syamasundara dasa: Perhaps the difference is one of mental activity. A man has the capacity to think in a more complicated way.

Srila Prabhupada: But mental activity means accepting and rejecting. Animals also accept and reject; therefore they have mental activity.

Syamasundara dasa: But what of developed intelligence?

Srila Prabhupada: Of course, man has a more highly developed intelligence, but we should not think that an animal has no intelligence at all. The father has more intelligence than his small child, but this is because the child has not grown to attain that standard. Similarly, an animal is making progress up the evolutionary scale. It has intelligence, but it is not highly developed. Plants, animals, and men possess consciousness. It has been proven by Doctor Jagadish Candra Bose that a tree is conscious of your cutting it. However, the tree does not feel it very much. If you hit an animal, the animal feels it more, and if you hit a man, a man feels it even more than an animal. It is a question of developed consciousness. That development has to do with the body. As soon as you receive the body of a tree, your consciousness is plugged up. It is not so active. When you attain the human form, consciousness is more developed, and that developed consciousness should be further developed so that you can come to Krsna consciousness, which is the highest perfection of the living entity.

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Hayagriva dasa: In Politics, Aristotle wrote: “The beauty of the body is seen, but the beauty of the soul is not seen.” Is this true?

Srila Prabhupada: The beauty of the soul is real, and the beauty of the body is superficial. In the material world, we see many ugly and many beautiful bodies, but here ugliness and beauty are artificial. The beauty of the soul, however, is real, not artificial. Unless we see the beauty of the Supersoul, Krsna, we have no ida what actual beauty is. Therefore the devotees want to see the beauty of Krsna, not the artificial beauty of this material world.

Hayagriva dasa: Is there no correspondence between a beautiful body and a beautiful soul? Aren’t they linked by karma?

Srila Prabhupada: There is some correspondence because we say that this material world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual. Originally, the soul is beautiful, but here that beauty is covered. We can only have a glimpse of the real beauty from the material covering, but we have to wait in order to se the actual beauty of the soul. That beauty is the real form of the body.

Hayagriva dasa: It is said that Socrates was physically ugly but that he had a very beautiful soul, and consequently people were attracted to him.

Srila Prabhupada: In India, it is said that the quail is black and ugly like a crow, but when it sings, its song is so beautiful tha people are attracted. The beauty of the body is secondary, and the beauty of the soul is primary. A beautiful man who is a fool is beautiful only as long as he does not speak. As soon as he speaks, we can understand his actual position. Essentially, external beauty is useless. If an ugly man speaks well, he attracts many people, and if a beautiful man speaks nonsense, no one cares for him. Real attraction is one thing, and artificial attraction is another.

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Syamasundara dasa: In man’s search for truth, the role of logic is paramount. According to Aristotle’s principle of contradiction, a proposition cannot be both true and false at the same time.

Srila Prabhupada: That is on the relative platform. At one time we may accept something to be true, and at another time we may reject it as untrue. On the mental platform we cannot know what is true and what is not. Therefore we have to learn the truth from the Supreme Truth. Truth is truth. It is not subject to speculation. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says that after many lives of speculation, the man of wisdom surrenders unto the Supreme Absolute Truth. In the beginning, a man may employ deductive logic, but in the end, he surrenders. he comes to the conclusion: Vasudevah sarvam iti (Bg. 7.19). “God is everything; therefore I must surrender.” This is the perfection and ultimate end of the menatal processes of speculation. That is, speculation is abandoned.

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Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle more or less utilizes the process of sankhya-yoga by analyzing objects and placing them into general categories. These categories become more and more general until one reaches the final cause, or ultimate category.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this is the process of neti-neti, by which one eventually hopes to attain Brahman by understanding what Brahman is not. According to this process, one goes through the universe saying neti-neti, “This is not Brahman, that is not Brahman. This is not truth, that is not truth.” This is the same inductive process. For instance, if you want to determine whether or not man is mortal, you may search from man to man and conclude whether each man is mortal or not. In this way, you can go on indefinitely seeing that all men are dying. Then why not accept the fact that man is mortal? In your attempt to find an immortal man, you are bound to be frustrated. you will only find mortality. This is the result of the neti-neti process.

Syamasundara dasa: The idea is that through this process, we can come to the final cause, the final category.

Srila Prabhupada: The final category is that we are part and parcel of God. That’s all.

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Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle also believed that everything is designed by God for the attainment of some particular objective. This indicates a grand scheme.

Srila Prabhupada: This is the process of evolution. The living entity passes from one species to another, from trees to vegetables, to insects, to fish, birds, beasts, and humans. In the human form, evolution is fully manifest. It is like a flower unfolding from a bud. When the living entity attains the human form, his proper duty is to understand his lost relationship with God. If he misses this opportunity, he may regress. Aristotle is correct therefore in saying that everything has a purpose. The whole creative process aims at bringing the living entity back to Godhead.

Syamasundara dasa: Does everything eventually come to that point?

Srila Prabhupada: As a human being, you can properly utilize your consciousness, or you can misuse it. That is up to you. Krsna gives Arjuna instuctions and then tells him that the decision is up to him. Under the orders of Krsna, nature has brought you through so many species. Now, as a human, you have a choice whether to return to god or again undergo the cycle of birth and death. If you are fortunate, you make the proper choice according to the instructions of the spiritual master and Krsna. Then your life is successful.

Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle sees a hierarchy of forms extending from minerals, vegetables, animals, to human beings, and ultimately God, who is pure form and pure act. God is devoid of all potentiality, or materiality.

Srila Prabhupada: There is no guarantee that we will move upwards in that hierarchy. It is a fact that the individual soul transmigrates from one form to another, but how can you say that the next form you attain will be closer to perfection? If you have a human form in this life, there is no guarantee that you will get a higher form in the next. You accept another form just as you accept another dress. That dress may be valuable, or of no value whatesoever. I get a dress according to the price I pay, and I accept a form according to my work.

Syamasundara dasa: But in order to attain perfection, we must move toward God. This is the goal for which the living entity is initially created.

Srila Prabhupada: This is very expertly explained in Vedic literature as karma, akarma, and vikarma. You bring about your own form. You enjoy or suffer according to your work. In any case, a material form is never perfect because it undergoes six changes. It is born, grows, it stays for a while, it leaves some by-products, dwindles, and then vanishes. When your form vanishes, you have to take on another form, which also undergoes the same processes. When a form vanishes, it decomposes, and various elements return to nature. Water returns to water, earth to earth, air returns to air, and so forth.

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Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle’s God is the unmoved mover. He is perfect, and He wants nothing. He does not have to actualize Himself because He is completely actualized.

Srila Prabhupada: We also agree that God is all perfect. Parasara Muni defines God as the totality of wisdom, strength, wealth, fame, beauty, and renunciation. All these qualities are possessed by Krsna in full, and when Krsna was present, anyone could see that He was perfect. One who is perfect can rule others, and we accept the leadership of a person according to his degree of perfection. If one is not somewhat wise, beautiful, wealthy, and so forth, why should we accept him a a leader? One who is supremely perfect in all these qualities is the supreme leader. That is natural. Since Krsna is supremely perfect, we should accept Him as our leader.

Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle sees God as pure thought (nous). God’s life is the life of the mind, but God does not need to do anything to further perfect Himself.

Srila Prabhupada: When he says that God is mind, what does he mean? Does he have some conception of God’s personality? God must be a person. Otherwise, how could he think?

Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle sees God as constantly engaged in self-contemplation.

Srila Prabhupada: Does this mean that when one is perfect, he engages in no activity? Does God simply sit down and meditate? If so, what is the difference between a stone and God? A stone sits; it has no activity. How is inactivity perfection? Krsna never meditates, yet when He speaks, He delivers perfect knowledge. Krsna enacts various pastimes: He fights with demons, protects His devotees, dances with the gopis, and delivers words of enlightenment. There is no question of God sitting down like a stone and engaging in self-meditation.

Syamasundara dasa: But is it not possible to meditate while acting?

Srila Prabhupada: Certainly, but God doesn’t have to meditate. Why should he meditate? He is perfect. Meditation means coming from the imperfect stage to the perfect stage. Since God is perfect to begin with, what business does He have meditating? Everything is actualized by His will alone.

Syamasundara dasa: Doesn’t He contemplate His own activities?

Srila Prabhupada: Why should He if He is perfect? Aristotle recommends that a man should meditate to become perfect. This meditation presupposes imperfection. Contemplation is recommended for living entities, but we should understand that whatever God desires or wills immediately comes into being. This information is given in the Vedas. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. God’s multi-energies are so powerful that everything is immediately actualized as soon as He desires.

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Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the process of bhakti. Unless one is a devotee, how can he constantly think of God? Rüpa Gosvami gives the example of a woman who has a parmour other than her husband. She performs her household chores very nicely, but she is always thinking, “When will my lover come at night?” If it is possible to think of this all the time materially, why not spiritually? It is a question of practice. Despite engaging in so many different types of work, you can think of God incessantly. Now, Aristotle may have some conception of God, but he has no clear idea of Krsna’s personality. We can think specifically and concretely of God because we receive information from Vedic literature that God is a person and appears a certain way. In Bhagavad-gita, it is stated that impersonalists experience a great deal of trouble because they have no clear idea of God.

 

“For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.” (Bg. 12.5)

 

If you have no conception of God’s form, your attempt to realize God will be very difficult.

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Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle conceives of God as the greatest good, as pure thought. When we act, we should always contemplate the good. In this way, we can lead a godly life.

Srila Prabhupada: You cannot contemplate the good unless you are guided by the good. Arjuna, for instance, was guided by the Supreme Good; therefore despite his activity, which was fighting, he performed the greatest good.

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Hayagriva dasa: In Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle writes: “Moral excellence is concerned with pleasure and pain; it is pleasure that makes us perform base action, and pain that prevents us from acting nobly. For that reason, as Plato says, men must be brought up from childhood to feel pleasure and pain at the proper things. This is proper education.” How does this correspond to the Vedic view of education?

Srila Prabhupada: According to the Vedic view, there is no pleasure in this material world. We may make all kinds of arrangements for pleasure, but we may suddenly have to die. So where is the pleasure? If we make arrangements for pleasure and then do not enjoy it, we are dissapointed. We are constantly trying to attain pleasure by inventing so many contrivances, but because we are controlled by some superior force, we may at any moment be kicked out of our house of pleasure. The conclusion is that there is no pleasure in this material world. Pleasure here is an illusion, mirage. In a derset, you may hallucinate water, but ultimately you will die of thirst.

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Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle believes that virtue can be analyzed, that any situation can be analyzed by the intelligence, and then that intelligence can be applied to correct action.

Srila Prabhupada: By intelligence he should try to understand whether or ot animals have souls. If an animal doesn’t have a soul, how is it he is acting like a human being? He is eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. How can you say he has no soul? The life symptoms are the same.

Syamasundara dasa: He equates the immortal soul with rational activity.

Srila Prabhupada: Well, animals have rational activities. I have already explained this. A philosopher certainly must know the sumptoms of the soul, and these must be defined. We receive perfect information on this subject from Bhagavad-gita, when Krsna says:

 

“It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kunti, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father.” (Bg. 14.4)

 

Does this mean that God is the father only of human beings? For instance, the Jews say that they are the only selected people of God. But what kind of God is this who selects some people and condemns others? This is God: Krsna says, sarva-yoni. “I am the father of all species of life.” Everyone is God’s son. How can I kill and eat any living entity? He is my brother in any case. Suppose a man has five sons, and two of them are fools. Does this mean that the intelligent sons have the right to kill and eat the foolish ones? Would the father like this? Who would ask the father, “Father, these two sons are fools and useless rascals. So let us cut them to pieces and eat them.”? Will the father agree to this? Or will the state agree? And why should God agree?

Syamasundara dasa: Aristotle claims that one can use his intelligence to practice virtue, but you once said that because a thief considers theft a virtue, he can use his intelligence to steal.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, a thief’s intelligence has been described as duskrtina. The word krti means “very meritorious,” and the word dus means “misapplied.” Is that virtuous when one’s intelligence is misapplied? when merit and intelligence are properly used for the proper activity, that is virtue. Such activity will not entangle a man. That is intelligence and virtue.

Syamasundara dasa: Ambition is one of the Aristotelean virtues, but one can have the abition to steal.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it was Hitler’s ambition to become total ruler of Europe. he killed many people and then finally killed himself. So what was all this ambition worth? all these politicians are very ambitious, but they are ambitious to unlawfully encroach upon the the rights of others. We should have the ambition to become the sincere servant of God. That is real ambition.

Syamasundara dasa: Among virtues, Aristotle includes courage, temperance, liberality, magnificence, and ambition.

Srila Prabhupada: What is the magnificence of killing animals? How can you have no kindness for poor animals and yet talk of magnificence? Harav abhaktasya (Bhag. 5.18.12) If you ultimate conclusion is not God consciousness, you have no good qualities. You can be neither a scientist, nor a philosopher, because you are naradhama, hovering on the mental platform. Thus you concoct so many theories.

Syamasundara dasa: As far as Aristotle’s social philosophy is concerned, he says that man is basically a political and social animal and that he must exist in some society in order to fulfill himself. Men live together to transcend their crude natural condition and arrive at a civilized culture of ethical and intellectual life.

Srila Prabhupada: If that is done, that is all right, but he is philosophizing that animals have no souls. Following his philosophy, people are saying, “Let’s kill the animals and eat them.” So what is the benefit of this grouping together in a society? we should instead group together to cultivate knowlege of God. This is what is required. What is the use in living together just to plunder other nations and kill other living entities? such a group is a group of rogues and gangsters. Even today in the United Nations people are grouping together and planning to encroach upon one another. So what is the point in all these groups of gangsters?

[Guest guest]

The difference with this is that the BG does not promote the raga bhakti typology of Caitanya deovitonalism.

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Hayagriva dasa: Plotinus accounts for the soul’s conditioning in this way: “How is it, then, that souls forget the divinity that begot them? This evil that has befallen them has its source in self-will, in being born, in becoming different, and desiring to be independent. Once having tasted the pleasures of independence, they use their freedom to go any direction that leads away from their origin. And when they have gone a great distance, they even forget that they came from it.”

Srila Prabhupada: That is correct. The more one turns from Krsna, the more degraded one becomes. I have already explained that the living entity may begin his life as Lord Brahma and eventually become so degraded that he becomes a worm in stool. Again, by nature’s way, one may evolve to the human form, which gives him a chance to understand how he has fallen from his original position. By taking to Krsna consciousness, he can put an end to this transmigration. Everyone has to give up the material body, but when a devotee gives up his body, he does not have to accept another. He is immediately transferred to the spiritual world. Mam eti (Bg. 4.9) “He comes to Me.” For a devotee, death means giving up the material body and remaining in the original, spiritual body. It is said that whether a devotee lives or dies, his business is the same: devotional service. Those who are degraded in material life––like butchers, who daily but the throats of many animals––are advised, “Don’t live, and don’t die.” This is because their present life is abominable, and their future life will be filled with suffering. The devotee is liberated because he is indifferent to living or dying. He is jivan-mukta, which indicates that although his body is rotting in the material world, he is liberated. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna affirms that His devotee is not subject to the modes of material nature.

 

“This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome, but those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.” (Bg. 7.14)

 

The devotee is therefore situated on the brahman platform. It is our constitutional position to serve: either maya or Krsna. Jivera ‘svarupa’ haya––krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given our real identity as being the eternal servant of Krsna. Presently everyone is rendering service to his family, community, nation, and so on. When this service is rendered cent per cent to Krsna, we are liberated. due to a poor fund of knowledge, impersonalists think that mukti, liberation, means inactivity., but there is no basis for this belief. The soul is naturally active, and because the soul is within the body, the body is engaged in many activities. the body in itself is inactive, but it acts because the soul is present. When we give up the bodily conception, why should activities stop? Mayavadis cannot understand that the active principle is the soul. When the active principle leaves the body, the body is called dead. Even if one is liberated from the material body, he must act. That is also explained in the Bhakti-sastra:

 

“Bhakti, or devotional service, means engaging all our senses in the service of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the senses. When the spirit soul renders service unto the Supreme, there are two side effects. He is freed from all material designations, and simply by being employed in the service of the Lord, his senses are purified.” (Narada-paæcaratra)

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Hayagriva dasa: During his lifetime, Origen was a famous teacher and was very much in demand. For him, preaching meant explaining the word of God and no more. He believed that a preacher must first be a man of prayer and must be in contact with God. He should not pray for material goods but for a better understanding of the scriptures.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is a real preacher. As explained in Vedic literatures: sravanam, kirtanah. First of all, we become perfect by hearing. This is called sravanam. When we are thus situated by hearing perfectly from an authorized person, our next stage begins: kirtana, preaching. In this material world, everyone is hearing something from someone else. In order to pass examinations, a student must hear his professor. Then, in his own right, he can become a professor himself. If we hear from a spiritualized person, we become perfect and can become real preachers. We should preach about Visnu for Visnu, not for any person within this material world. We should hear and preach about the Supreme Person, the transcendental Personality of Godhead. That is the duty of a liberated soul.

Hayagriva dasa: As far as contradictions and seeming absurdities in scripture are concerned, Origen considered them to be stumbling blocks permitted to exist by God in order for man to pass beyond the literal meaning. He writes that “everything in scripture has a spiritual meaning, but not all of it has a literal meaning.”

Srila Prabhupada: Generally speaking, every word in scripture has a literal meaning, but people cannot understand it properly because they do not hear from the proper person. They interpret instead. There is no need to interpret the words of God. Sometimes the words of God cannot be understood by an ordinary person; therefore we may require the transparent medium of the guru. Since the guru is fully cognizant of the words spoken by God, we are advised to receive the words of the scriptures through the guru. There is no ambiguity in the words of God, but due to our imperfect knowledge, we sometimes cannot understand. Not understanding, we try to interpret, but because we are imperfect, our interpretations are also imperfect. The purport is that the words of God, the scriptures, should be understood from a person who has realized God.

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Hayagriva dasa: For Origen, there are two rebirths. The first is a baptism, which is something like a mystical union between Christ and the soul. Baptism marked the first stage in spiritual life: from there, one could regress or progress. Baptism is compared to a shadow of the ultimate rebirth, which is complete purificaton and rebirth in the spiritual world with Christ. When the soul is reborn with Christ, it receives a spiritual body like Christ and beholds Christ face to face.

Srila Prabhupada: What is the position of Christ?

Hayagriva dasa: He is seated at the right hand of the Father in the kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada: But when Christ was present on earth, many people saw him.

Hayagriva dasa: They saw him in many different ways, just as the people saw Krsna in many different ways.

Srila Prabhupada: Is it that Christ was seen in his full spiritual body?

Hayagriva dasa: When the soul is reborn with Christ, it beholds Christ’s spiritual body through its spiritual senses.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. We also think in this way.

Hayagriva dasa: Origen did not believe that the individual soul has been existing from all eternity. It was created. He writes: “The rational natures that were made in the beginning did not always exist; they came into being when they were created.”

Srila Prabhupada: That is not correct. Both the living entity and God are simultaneously eternally existing, and the living entity is part and parcel of God. Although eternally existing, the living entity is changing his body. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire (Bg. 2.20) One body after another is being created and destroyed, but the living being is eternally existing. So we disagree when Origen says that the soul is created. Our spiritual identity is never created. That is the difference between spirit and matter. Material things are created, but the spiritual tis without beginning.

 

“Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.” (Bg. 2.12)

 

Hayagriva dasa: Origen differed from later Church doctrine in his belief in transmigration. Although he believed that it transmigrated because it could always refuse to give itself to God. So he saw the individual soul as possibly rising and falling perpetually on the evolutionary scale. Later Church doctrine held that one’s choice for eternity is made in this one lifetime. As Origen saw it, the individual soul, falling short of the ultimate goal, is reincarnated again and again.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the Vedic version. Unless one is liberated and goes to the kingdom of God, he must transmigrate from one material body to another. The material body grows, remains for some time, reproduces, grows old, and becomes useless. Then the living entity has to leave one body for another. Once in a new body, he again attempts to fulfill his desires, and again he goes through the process of dying and accepting another material body. This is the process of transmigration.

Hayagriva dasa: It is interesting that neither Origen or Christ rejected transmigration. It wasn’t until Augustine that it was denied.

Srila Prabhupada: Transmigration is a fact. A person cannot wear the same clothes all of his life. Our clothes become oled and useless, and we have to change them. The living being is certainly eternal, but he has to accept a material body for material sense gratification, and such a body cannot endure perpetually. All of this is thoroughly explained in Bhagavad-gita.

 

“As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.” (Bg. 2.13)

 

“The living entity in the material world carries his different conceptions of life from one body to another as the air carries aromas. Thus he takes one kind of body and again quits it to take another.”

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Hayagriva dasa: Like Origen, Augustine considerd the soul to be created at a particular time, but unlike Origen, he rejected reincarnation: “Let these Platonists stop threatening us with reincarnatin as punishment for our souls. Reincarnation is ridiculous. There is no such thing as a return to this life for the punishment of souls. If our creation, even as mortals, is due to God, how can ther return to bodies, which are gifts of God, be punishment?”

Srila Prabhupada: Does he think that the assumption of the body of a hog or similar lower creature is not punishment? Why does one person get the body of King Indra or Lord Brahma, and another the body of a pig or insect? How does he explain the body of a pig? If the body is a gift from God, it can also be a punishment from God. When one is rewarded, he get the body of a Brahma or a King Indra, and if he is punished, he gets the body of a pig.

Hayagriva dasa: What about the body of a man? Is that a gift or punishment?

Srila Prabhupada: There are so many men who are well situated, and others who are suffering. Suffereing and enjoyment take place according to the body. As explained in Bhagavad-gita:

 

 

“O son of Kunti, the nonpermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed.” (Bg. 2.14)

 

An old man may perceive cold very acutely, whereas a young child may not perceive it. Perception is relative to the body. An animal may go naked and not feel the cold, whereas man cannot. Thus the body is a source of suffering and enjoyment. Or we may consider this punishment and reward.

Hayagriva dasa: For Augustine, the soul of each individual man is not necessarily condemned to earth due to his own desire or sin, but due to the original sin of Adam, the first man. He writes: “When the first couple [Adam and Eve] were punished by the judgment of God, the whole human race… was present in the first man. And what was born was not human nature as it was originally created, but as it became after the first parents’ sin and punishment––as far. at least, as concerns the origin of sin and death.” In this sense, the individual partakes of the karma of the entire race.

Srila Prabhupada: If this is the case, why does he call the body a gift? Why does he say that it is not punishment? The original man was punished, as well as the man after him, and so on. sometimes a father’s disease is inherited by the son. Is this not a form of punishment?

Hayagriva dasa: Then the human form is a punishment in itself?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. At the same time, you can consider human life a gift because it is given by God. We should think that if God has given us this body for our punishment, it is His mercy, because by undergoing punishment we may become purified and progress toward God. Devotees think in this way. Although the body is a form of punishment, we consider it a reward because by undergoing the punishment, we are progressing toward God realization. Even when the body is given by God for our correction, it can thus be considered a gift.

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Hayagriva dasa: Augustine felt that neither activity nor meditation should be exclusive but should complement one another: “No man must be so committed to contemplation as, in his contemplation, to give no thought to his neighbor’s needs, nor so absorbed in action as to dispense with the contemplation of God.”

Srila Prabhupada: Unless you think of God, how can you be active in the service of God? Real meditation is meditation on the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or the Supersoul within the core of the heart. Activity and meditation should go together, however. If we sit down and think of God, it is commendable, but if we work for God as God desires, our position is superior. If you love me and simply sit and think of me, that is commendable. That may be considered meditation. However, if you love me, it is better that you carry out my orders. That is more important.

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Hayagriva dasa: For Augustine, the mind, reason, and the soul are one and the same.

Srila Prabhupada: No, these are different identities. The mind acts according to the intelligence, but the intelligence of different living entities differs. Similarly, minds also differ. A dog’s intelligence is not equal to that of a human being, but this is not to say that the dog does not have a soul. The soul is placed in different bodies that have different types of intelligence and different ways of thinking, acting, feeling, and willling. So the mind and intelligence differ according to the body, but the soul remains the same.

Hayagriva dasa: By identifying the soul with mind and reason, Augustine could justify killing animals. He writes: “Indeed, some people try to stretch the prohibition [“Thou shalt not kill”] to cover beasts and cattle, and make it unlawful to kill any such animal. But then, why not include plants and anything rooted in and feeding on the soil?… Putting this nonsense aside, we do not apply “Thou shalt not kill” to plants, because they have no sensation; nor to irrational animals that fly, swim, walk, or creep, because they are linked to us by no association or common bond. By the creator’s wise ordinance, they are meant for our use, dead or alive. It only remains for us to apply the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill” to man alone, oneself and others.”

Srila Prabhupada: The Bible says “Thou shalt not kill,” without qualification. Our Vedic philosophy admits that one living entity serves as food for another living entity. That is natural. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, those animals who have hands eat animals without hands. The four-legged animals eat animals that cannot move, as well as plants and vegetables. Thus the weak is food for the strong. This is a natural law. Our K§øëa consciousness philosophy, however, is not based on the view that plant life is les sensitive than animal life, or animal life is less sensitive than human life. We consider all human beings, animals, plants, and trees to be living entitites, spirit souls. We may eat an animal or a vegetable––whatever the case, we must inevitably eat some living entity. It therefore becomes a question of selection. Apart from vegetarian or nonvegetarian diets, we are basically concerned with Krsna prasadam. We take only the remnants of whatever Krsna eats. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says:

 

“If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.” (Bg. 9.26)

 

This is our philosophy. We are concerned with taking the remnants of Krsna’s food, which we call prasadam, mercy. We should not touch meat or anything else not offered to Krsna.

 

“The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin.” (Bg. 3.13)

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Hayagriva dasa: When a student of Socrates once said, “I cannot refute you, Socrates,” Socrates replied, “Say, rather that you cannot refute the truth, for Socrates is easily refuted.” He thus considered the Absolute Truth transcendental to mental speculation and personal opinion.

Srila Prabhupada: That is correct. If we accept Krsna, God, as the supreme authority, the Absolute Truth, we cannot regute what He says. Krsna, or God, is by definition supreme perfection, and philosophy is perfect when it is in harmony with Him. This is our position. The philosophy of this Krsna consciousness movement is religious because it is concerned with carrying out the orders of God. That is the sum and substance of religion. It is not possible to manufacture a religion. In Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam, manufactured religion is called dharma-kaitava, just another form of cheating. Our baasic principle is given in Srimad-Bhagavatam:

 

“Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great rsis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods, nor the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyadharas and Caranas.” (Bhag. 6.3.19)

 

The word “dharma” refers to the orders given by God, and if we follow those orders, we are following dharma. An individual citizen cannot manufacture laws, because laws are given by the government. Our perfection is in following the orders of God cent per cent. Those who have no conception of God or His orders may manufacture religious systems, but our system is different.

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Syamasundara dasa: In a dialogue with Socrates, Protagoras said, “Truth is relative. It is only a matter of opinion.” Socrates then asked, “Do you mean that truth is mere subjective opinion?” Protagoras replied, “Exactly. What is true for you is true for you, and what is true for me is true for me. Thus truth is subjective.” Socrates then asked, “Do you really mean my opinion is true by virtue of its being my opinion?” Protagoras said, “Indeed I do.” Socrates then said, “My opinion is that truth is absolute, not subjective, and that you, Protagoras, are absolutely in error. Since this is my opinion, you must grant that it is true according to your philosophy.” Protagoras then admitted, “You are quite correct, Socrates.” through this kind of dialogue, or dialectic, Socrates would logically convince many people.

Srila Prabhupada: That is what we are also doing. The Absolute Truth is true for everyone, and the relative truth is realative to a particular position. The relative truth depends on the Absolute Truth, which is the summum bonum. God is the Absolute Truth, and the material world is relateive truth. Because the material world is God’s energy, it appears to be real or true, just as teh reflection of the sun in water emits some light. that reflection is not absolute, and as soon as the sun sets, that light will disappear. Since relative truth is a reflection of the Absolute Truth, Srimad-Bhagavatam states: satyam param dhimahi. “I worship the Absolute Truth.” (Bhag 1.1.1) The Absolute Truth is Krsna, Vasudeva. Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. This cosmic manifestation is relative truth; it is a manifestation of Krsna’s external energy. If Krsna withdrew His energy, the universal creation would not exist. In another sense, Krsna and Krsna’s energy are not different. We cannot separate heat from fire; heat is also fire, yet heat is not fire. This is the position of relative truth. As soon as we experience heat, we understand that there is fire. Yet we cannot say that heat is fire. Relative truth is like heat because it stands on the strength of the Absolute Truth, just as heat stands on the strength of fire. Because the Absolute is true, relative truth also appears to be true, although it has no independent existence. A mirage appears to be water because in actuality there is such a thing as water. Similarly, this material world appears attractive because there is an all-attractive spiritual world.

[ethos 0]

Hayagriva dasa: The good of which Socrates speaks is different from sattva-guna. In the Republic, Socrates says that it is the Good which gives truth to the objects of knowledge and the very power of knowing to him who knows them. He speaks of the Form of essential goodness as the cause of knowledge and truth. Although we may consider the Good to be an object of knowledge, it would be better if we regarded it as being beyond truth and knowledge and of higher value. Both knowlede and truth are therefore to be regarded as like unto the Good, but it is incorrect to identify either with the Good. He believes that the Good must hold a higher place of honor. Objects of knowledge derive their very being and reality from the Good, which is beyond being itself and supasses it in dignity and power.

Srila Prabhupada: Sattva-guna, the mode of goodness, is a position from which we can receive knowledge. Knowledge cannot be received from the platform of passion and ignorance. If we hear about Krsna, or god, we are gradually freed from the clutches of darkness and passion. Then we can come to the platform of sattva-guna, and when we are perfectly situated there, we are beyond the lower modes. Srimad-Bhagavatam says:

 

“By regularly hearing the Bhagavatam and rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is practically destroyed, and loving service unto the glorious Lord, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact. At the time loving service is established in the heart, the modes of passion (rajas), and ignorance (tamas), and lust and desire (kama), disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes happy.” (Bhag. 1.2.18-19)

 

This process may be gradual, but it is certain. The more we hear about Krsna, the more we become purified. Purification means freedom from the attacks of greed and passion. Then we can become happy. From the brahma-bhüta platform, we can realize ourselves and then realize God. So before realizing the Supreme Good, we must first come to the platform of sattva-guna, goodness. Therefore we have regulations prohibiting illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication, and gambling. Ultimately, we must transcend even the mode of goodness through bhakti. Then we become liberated, gradually develop love of God, and regain our original state.

 

“When the living entity, along with his conditional living tendency, merges with the mystic lying down of the Maha-Visnu, it is called the winding up of the cosmic manifestation. Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living entity after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle bodies.” (Bhag. 2.10.6) This means giving up all material engagements and rendering full service to Krsna. then we attain the state where maya cannot touch us. If we keep in touch with Krsna, maya has no jurisdiction.

 

“This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.” (Bg. 7.14) This is perfection.