Dialectic Spiritualism Highlights 2

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Syamasundara dasa: Descartes sees matter operating like a machine under mechanical laws. The sum total of all motion in the world is always constant; it neither increases nor decreases. However, he claims that the soul is unaffected by mechanical causes and is therefore immortal.

Srila Prabhupada: Yet somehow or other he has been put into this mechanical process.

Syamasundara dasa: Yes, and this was Descartes’s problem. He could not understand how spirit and matter interact, how the nondimensional, nonextended spirit can have a three dimensional body.

Srila Prabhupada: When you are on the land and fall into the water, your struggle begins. This means that on land you are safe, but somehow or other you have fallen into this material struggle. Spirit is spirit, and matter is matter, but now they have come into contact with one another. We have caused this contact because we have misused our independence. A boy may stand firmly beside the water, but if he wants to enjoy the water, he may fall in. If he cannot manage to swim, he is lost. This is our position. The spirit soul has a body, and his business is to enjoy life, but because he falls within the jurisdiction of matter, he cannot enjoy his labor. As long as he is within water, there is no possibility of happiness.

Syamasundara dasa: Does the spiritual body have dimensions? Does it exist in space?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it has dimensions. It has length, breadth, and everything. Otherwise, how can we say that it is one ten-thousandth of the tip of a hair? In other words, there is measurement, but that measurement is beyond our imagination. The soul is something different. It is inconceivable. If the spirit soul has no body, how can the material body develop? A material body is like a coat molded in the form of the spiritual body. You cannot make a dress without measuring the body.

Syamasundara dasa: Then the spiritual body is very small?

Srila Prabhupada: You cannot image it. Because the materialists cannot see or measure the spiritual body, they say that it does not exist.

Syamasundara dasa: Descartes says that the soul exists, but not that it occupies space.

Srila Prabhupada: This means that his conception of space is limited. The material body is a body that has a beginning and an end. Your coat is made at a certain date. The spiritual body is changing dress from one material body to another, just as you change your clothes.

Syamasundara dasa: After the soul has fallen into matter, can it be delivered through proper knowledge?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement. Even if a person is an expert swimmer, how long can he swim? He will eventually succumb because he is in a fallen condition. However, if one is elevated just one inch above the water, he is immediately safe. The water may remain in its position, but he is transcendental to it. This transcendental position is Krsna consciousness.

Syamasundara dasa: In other words, the spirit soul can rise above matter, above the water.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, just like a flying fish. This fish may swim within the water, but suddenly he may fly over it. As soon as you become Krsna conscious, you can fly over the water of material existence. Then you can gradually come to land.

Syamasundara dasa: If the spirit soul is unlimited and has unlimited power, how does he fall within matter?

Srila Prabhupada: It does not have unlimited power. Its power is so great that in the material Syamasundara dasa: How is it able to be confined by something as limited as a body?

Srila Prabhupada: I have already explained this. It is like falling into the water. As spirit soul, we have nothing to do with this material body, but somehow or other we have come into contact with it. There is a cause, but instead of finding out this cause, we should realize that we are in a dangerous position.

Syamasundara dasa: But if the spirit has great power, and the body has limited power, how is it that this limited power is able to hold onto the great power, to capture it and keep it?

Srila Prabhupada: The material energy is Krsna’s energy, and each and every energy of Krsna is as great as Krsna. Therefore Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita:

 

“This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.” (Bg. 7.14)

 

Syamasundara dasa: In other words, it is sometimes stronger than the spiritual energy?

Srila Prabhupada: When you come into contact with the material energy without a specific purpose, it is stronger. Krsna’s representative comes into the material energy in order to preach. Although he is within the material energy, he is not under its control. But if you come in contact with material energy without serving Krsna’s purpose, you suffer. For instance, in a jail ther are may superintendents and government officials. There are also prisoners. However, their conditions differ. We cannot say that because they are all in jail that they are all suffering in the same way. The superintendent is there because he is serving the government’s purpose. Therefore he is not subject to the laws of the jail. when you are in the serive of Krsna, you are no longer under the laws of maya. You are liberated.

Syamasundara dasa: So the prisoners who have forgotten their real service have been weakened?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, beause they have disobeyed and have forgotten their subordinate position. They want to be independent of the state, and therefore they have been put into jail.

Syamasundara dasa: Then for them, the material energy is stronger.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. It is stronger for them. Those who are conditioned and are serving the material energy cannot escape through their own endeavor. They are dependent on the mercy of Krsna and His representatives.

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Hayagriva dasa: Pascal ascribed to the doctrine of original sin, which holds that at one time man fell from grace by committing some sin or other, and this fall from grace accounts for his present position between the angels and the beasts. In other words, original sin accounts for man’s encagement in matter.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this is also our philosophy.

Hayagriva dasa: What was this original sin?

Srila Prabhupada: Disobedience––refusing to serve Krsna. Sometimes a servant thinks, “Why am I serving this master? I myself must become a master.” The living entity is eternally part and parcel of God, and his duty is to serve God. When he thinks, “Why should I serve God? I shall enjoy myself instead,” he brings about his downfall. Original sin means refusing to serve God and attempting instead to become God. Mayavadis, for instance, are still attempting to become God, despite their knowledge and philosophy. If by meditation or some material effort, we can become God, what is the meaning of God? It is not possible for man to become God. The attempt to become God is the original sin, the beginning of sinful life.

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Hayagriva dasa: Pascal believed that it is impossible for man to understand the universe or his position in it. We cannot look for certainty or stability in the material world because our reasoning powers are always being deceived. Therefore man must surrender to the dictates of his heart and to God.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is our position. We are not depending on the heart, however, because the dictations of the heart are not appreciated by nondevotees. Distinct instructions are given in Bhagavad-gita and explained by the spiritual master. If we take the advice of God and His representative, we will not be misled.

Hayagriva dasa: Of all things in the world, Pascal considered this to be the strangest: “A man spends many days and nights in rage and despair over the loss of his job or for some imaginary insult to his honor, yet he does not consider with anxiety and emotion that he will lose everything by death. It is a monstrous thing to see in the same heart and at the same time this sensibility to trifles and this strange insensibility to the greatest object (death). It is an incomprehensible enchantment, and a supernatural slumber, which indicates as its cause an all-powerful force.”

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, according to Bhagavad-gita, when one does not believe in God, or when one disobeys God’s orders, God comes as death. Then all power, pride, imagination, and plans are broken. After this, one may attain the body of an animal because in his life he acted like an animal. This is the process of transmigration. This is suffering.

Hayagriva dasa: Pascal writes: “If we submit everything to reason, our religion will have no mysterious and supernatural element. If we offend the principles of reason, our religion will be absurd and ridiculous.”

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. The orders of God constitute religion, and if we carry out these orders, we are religious. Paeudo-religions, religions that cheat, are condemned in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Any religious system which has no conception of God and which annually changes its resolutions is not a religion but a farce.

Hayagriva dasa: Pascal seems to be saying that we should not accept our faith blindly, but at the same time we should not expect everything to be comprehensible to our understanding.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. A father may tell his child to do something, although the child may nt comprehend it. In any case, we understand that the fatehrs’s plans are complete and good for the son. If the son says, “No, I don’t wish to do this,” he may fall down. God’s orders constitute religion, but there is no question of blind following. We must understand God’s nature and realize that He is all perfect. In this way, we can understand that whatever He says is also perfect and that we should therefore accept it. If we apply our finite reasoning and try to change God’s instructions according to our whims, we will suffer.

Syamasundara dasa: Pascal claims that by faith we have to make a forced opinion, or what he calls a religious wager. We either have to cast our lot on the side of God––in which case we have nothing to loose in this life and everything to gain in the next––or we deny God and jeopardize our eternal position.

Srila Prabhupada: That is our argument. If there are two people, and neither has experience of God, one may say that there is no God, and the other may say the there is God. So both must be given a chance. The one who says that there is no God dismisses the whole case, but the one who says that there is a God must become cautious. He cannot work irresponsibly. If there is a God, he cannot run risks. Actually, both are taking risks because neither knows fro certain that there is a God. However, it is preferable that one believe.

Syamasundara dasa: Pascal says that there is a fifty-fifty chance.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, so take the fifty percent chance in favor.

Syamasundara dasa: Pascal also advocated that. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. We also advise people to chant Hare Krsna. Since you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, why not chant?

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Hayagriva dasa: Although Pascal was considered a great philosopher, he concluded that philosophy in itself only leads to skepticism. Faith is needed. “Hear God” was his favorite motto.

Srila Prabhupada: Philosophy means understanding the truth. Sometimes philosophers spend their time speculating about sex and thus become degraded. Sex is present in animals as well as man. Sex is not life itself; it is only a symptom of life. If we emphasize only this symptom, the results are not philosophy. Philosophy means finding out the Absolute Truth. The real subject of philosophy is Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan.

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Hayagriva dasa: What about the contention that no one can hate God? What of Kaàsa and others?

Srila Prabhupada: Hatred of God is demoniac. Naturally, the living entity is in love with God, and he certainly should love God, but when he is in Maya, he considers himself sparate from God. Instead of loving Him, he begins to consider God a competitor and hindrance to sense gratification. It is then that he thinks of avoiding God, or killing Him. The living entity then thinks, “I will become an absolute sense gratifier.” In this way, he becomes demoniac.

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Syamasundara dasa: Spinoza’s idea of understanding God is understanding nature. This is because he believes that God reveals Himself in nature.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, just as in order to understand the sun, we have to understand the sunshine. If we study nature, daiva-sakti, we can get some idea of God. Those who are just beginning to understand God are nature worshippers. They cannot go directly to God. The study of nature is the first stage of understanding God.

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Syamasundara dasa: Spinoza stresses the importance of the intellect, which allows a man to understand the laws of his own personality and thereby control his emotions.

Srila Prabhupada: What does he mean by the emotions?

Syamasundara dasa: Acting emotionally means acting instinctively by one’s senses without intelligent consideration.

Srila Prabhupada: A madman acts according to his emotions. But what is the source of these emotions? Unless there are emotions in the whole substance, how can emotions exist? There must be emotions in the whole. the substance is the origin, and therefore emotin is a category. Unless emotions are already there in the substance, how can they be manifest? How can you neglect your emotions? If emotions exist in the substance, they have some purpose. Why is he trying to negate his emotions?

Syamasundara dasa: He thinks that emotions will only lead one to error.

Srila Prabhupada: Whatever the case, emotions are concomitant factors in the substance. Every madman also has a mind just as a sane man, but the sane man does not commit mistakes because his mind is in order. Similarly, when emotions are not in order, they lead to trouble, but when emotins are in order, they serve a purpose and are proper. Spinoza does not know this?

Syamasundara dasa: He claims that the intelligence can direct the emotions.

Srila Prabhupada: Love of God is an emotion. One may cry in the perfectional stage of devotinal service. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu threw Himself into the ocean, that was an emotional act, but that was also a perfect act. According to his emotions, Caitanya Mahaprabhu was considering one moment to be like a yuga, like forty-three million years. This was because He was feeling separation from Krsna. When we feel separation from Govinda, Krsna, our emotions are in perfect order. that is the perfection of life. However, when the emotions are misused, that is maya.

Syamasundara dasa: Spinoza believes that by nourishing our intelligence, we can will things accordingly. First of all, our will should be subordinate to our intelligence.

Srila Prabhupada: It is already subordinate to our intelligence.

Syamasundara dasa: But in a madman, is it not reversed?

Srila Prabhupada: A madman actually looses his intelligence. He thinks wildly. This is due to derangement, to a loss of intelligence.

Syamasundara dasa: Spinoza says that God’s intelligence controls His will.

Srila Prabhupada: That is a different thing. In God, there is no such distinction. There is no distinction between God’s body, soul, mind, and intelligence. In Him, everything is absolute. You cannot say that this is God’s intelligence, or that this is God’s mind. If you make these distinctions, how can you say that God is absolute? In the relative material world, there are such distinctions. We say that this is the intelligence, this is the mind, this is the soul, and so on, but in the spiritual world, there are no such distinctions. Everything is spirit.

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Syamasundara dasa: Spinoza states that man should act for his own self-preservation because this is a natural law.

Srila Prabhupada: All preservation depends on God; therefore self-preservation means surrendering to God. A child can preserve himself by surrendering to his parent’s will, but if he acts independently, he may be in trouble. If we do not surrender to God, there is no question of preservation. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says:

 

“Though engaged in all kinds of activities, My pure devotee, under My protection, reaches the eternal and imperishable abode by My grace.” (Bg. 18.56)

 

Krsna tells Arjuna to surrender unto Him. “I will give you all protection.” Without Krsna, we can not protect ourselves. When Lord Ramacandra wanted to kill Ravana, no one could preserve him, not even Lord Siva or Goddess Durga. Although there was a guge arrangement for the slaughter of the Pandavas, no ne could kill them because they were protected by Krsna. Self-preservation means taking shelter of Krsna and depending on Him. Rakhe krsna mareke mare krsna rakheke. “If Krsna protects one, who can kill him? And if Krsna wants to kill one, who can protect him?” Just surrender unto Krsna, and you will never be destroyed. That is self-preservation. Krsna tells Arjuna: kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati. “O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes.” (Bg. 9.31)

Syamasundara dasa: Spinoza believes that the more we understand reality, the more we understand God.

Srila Prabhupada: this is because God is reality, and forgetfulness of God is illusion. Illusion is also God, but in illusion we forget God; therefore it is not real.

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Syamasundara dasa: Spinoza believes that the more we understand reality, the more we understand God.

Srila Prabhupada: This is because God is reality, and forgetfulness of God is illusion. Illusion is also God, but in illusion we forget God; therefore it is not real. Sunshine and darkness are both reality because they exist side by side. Wherever there is light, there is also shadow. How can we say that the shadow is not reality? It is maya, but because maya attacks the individual soul, Krsna is forgotten. In that sense, illusion or the unreal is also reality.

Syamasundara dasa: But in illusion we forget the reality, the light.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, but this is so-called illusion. It is darkness, the atmosphere in which Krsna is forgotten. Maya is the shadow of darkness, yet even if we come under the shadow of darkness, reality remains. That atmosphere of the unreal is existing side by side with the real. Krsna states, “Maya is Mine.” (Bg. 9.10) It is created by God; therefore how can it be unreal? Krsna is reality, and everything dovetailed to Krsna is reality. Therefore maya, or the unreal, is also Krsna. However, when we are in Krsna consciousness, we are situated in reality. This material world is called the unreal, but if we are Krsna conscious, there is nothing unreal.

Syamasundara dasa: Because there is no forgetfulness?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As long as you are engaged in the service of Krsna, there is nothing unreal for you.