Dialectic Spiritualism Highlights 2

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I'm starting #2 here because my slow modem takes awhile to load original thread. This way, it's easier on the viewers and the server.

 

I am transcribing "Dialectic Spiritualism" for my own purposes. Below you will find highlights from that book. Check back for additions.

 

I would prefer that no replies be made. It will be a long enough thread without replies. These threads are simply provided for the benefit of those who might benefit from them.

 

Knowledge is where you find it. Hare Krsna!

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Hayagriva dasa: In The World As Will, Schopenhauer writes: "My body is the objectivity of my will… Besides will and idea, nothing is known to us or thinkable… The genitals are properly the focus of the will, and consequently the opposite pole of the brain, the representative of knowledge… In this respect… they were worshiped by the Hindus in the lingam, which are thus the symbol of the assertion of the will. Knowledge, on the other hand, affords the possibility of the suppression of willing, of salvation through freedom, of conquest and annihilation of the world."

Srila Prabhupada: As I said before, willing is done in accordance with the body, but we should understand that we have nothing to do with this material world, which is the production of the material will. We are spiritual, and when we will spiritual, we are Krsna conscious. When we will materially, we get different types of material bodies. It is true that the basis of material life is sex. We always say:

 

"Sex life is compared to the rubbing of two hands to relieve an itch. Grhamedhis, so-called grhasthas who have no spiritual knowledge, think that this itching is the greatest platform of happiness, although actually it is a source of distress. The krpanas, the fools who are just the opposite of brahmanas, are not satisfied by repeated sensuous enjoyment. Those who are dhira, however, who are sober, and who tolerate this itching, are not subjected to the sufferings of fools and rascals." (Bhag. 7.9.45).

 

The basic principle of those who are addicted to the material world is maithuna, sexual intercourse. This strong desire for sex continues as long as we are in material existence, because that is the center of all pleasure. However, when we get a taste for Krsna's pleasure, we can give this up.

 

"The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness." (Bg. 2.59)

 

Syamasundara dasa: Schopenhauer considers sex to be selfishness, whereas real love means sympathy.

Srila Prabhupada: Sex is animalistic. It is not love but lust. Sex means the mutual satisfaction of senses, and that is lust. All this lust is taking place under the name of love, and out of illusion, people mistake this lust for love. Real love says, "People are suffering from a lack of Krsna consciousness. Let us do something for them so that they can understand the value of life."

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Srila Prabhupada: Schopenhauer says, "Human life must be some kind of mistake." The greatest crime of man was that he was ever born.

Srila Prabhupada: When you understand that there is a crime, you must understand that someone is there to punish you. If you suffer because of that crime, you must understand that there is someone who has judged you to be criminal.

Syamasundara dasa: He concludes, however, that because the world is mad or irrational, it could not possibly have an author. If there were a God, He would have set the world in order.

Srila Prabhupada: We have certainly experienced that there are madmen in the world, but there are also hospitals where such men can be treated. The world may be mad, but there is hospitalization. Unfortunately, Schopenhauer has no knowledge of the hospital or of the treatment. he speaks of sinful life, but he does not accept the judge who gives the punishment for sinful life. He sees that the world is mad, but he does not know the treatment for madmen.

 

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Hayagriva dasa: In discussing the functions of the brain, Schopenhauer notes that the need for sleep is directly proportionate to the intensity of our mental activities. Dull creatures like reptiles and fish sleep little and lightly; the more intelligent animals sleep deeply and long. "the more completely awake man is," he writes, "the clearer and more lively his consciousness, the greater for him is the necessity of sleep, and thus the deeper and longer he sleeps."

Srila Prabhupada: No. Those who are ignorant, materially covered, sleep more, and those who are spiritually enlightened sleep less. Sleep is a necessity of the body, and not of the soul; therefore those who are spiritually advancd do not reuire a lot of sleep. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau. We understnd that Rüpa Gosvami conquered sleeping, eating, and mating. When we are spiritually engaged, we consider sleep a waste of time. Those who are interested in spiritual life adjust their lives in such a way that their sleep is practically nil. Arjuna was addressed as Gudakesa, "one who has conquered sleep."

Hayagriva dasa: Schopenhauer recommends about eitght hours of sleep a night. How many are recommended in the Vedic tradition?

Srila Prabhupada: Sleep should be avoided, but since that is not possible, it should be adjusted to the minimum. the Gosvamis did not sleep more than two hours daily. Even some karmis are so absorbed in their work that they practically don’t sleep at all. It is said that Napoleon slept while riding his horse, and Gandhi slept while riding in a car. Generally, six hours is sufficient.

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Hayagriva dasa: In The Ages of Life, Schopenhauer writes: "A complete and adequate notion of life can never be attained by anyone who does not reach old age, for it is only the old man who sees life whole and knows its natural course… He alone has a full sense of its utter vanity, whereas others never cease to labor under the false notion that everything will come right in the end."

Srila Prabhupada: This may seem to be the case, but in Western countries we observe old men still following the path of sense gratification. So what is the use of their experience? Unless one receives training, it is not sufficient to become an old man in order to understand the purpose of life. Training is required from early childhood. According to the Vedic plan, an old man should take the renounced order of sannyasa and completely devote his time and energy to understanding and serving God. We do not become spiritually mature just by growing old. We should be trained from the very beginning as brahmacari.

Hayagriva dasa: Schopenhauer points out that it is customary to call yourth the happy part of life and old age the sad part, but factually this is not the case. "This would be true if it were the passions that made a man happy," he writes, "but a man feels happy just insofar as his intellect is the predominating part of him."

Srila Prabhupada: For modern civilization, happiness means sense gratificaion. Desire for sense gratification continues even when one is an old man; therefore early training is required. It is said that one can become an old man even without advancing in age. this means that it is knowledge that is important, not age. If one is not educated properly, he becomes an old fool.

Hayagriva dasa: Schopenhauer notes that in the Upaniøads, the natural human life span is set at a hundred years. "to come to one’s end before the age of ninety means to die of disease," he writes. "In other words, prematurely."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. In this millennium, the maximum age is one hundred years, but in former millennia, men used to live for a thousand years. In the Treta-yuga, the life span was ten thousand years, and in the Satya-yuga, it was one hundred thousand years. Presently, in Kali-yuga, life has become so degraded that people expect to live only about seventy years. As one becomes more sensuous, his life span decreases. That is the law of nature.

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Hayagriva dasa: Concerning karma, Jung writes: "The crucial question is whether a man’s karma is personal or not. If it is, then the pre-ordained destiny with which a man enters life represents an achievement of previous lives, and a personal continuity therefore exists. If, however, this is not so, and an impersonal karma is seized upon in the act of birth, then that karma is incarnated again without there being any personal continuity."

Srila Prabhupada: Karma is always personal.

Hayagriva dasa: When Buddha was asked whether karma is personal or not, he avoided answering. He said that knowing this would not contribute to liberation from the illusion of existence.

Srila Prabhupada: Buddha refused to answer because he did not teach about the soul or accept the personal soul. As soon as you deny the personal aspect of the soul, there is no question of a personal karma. Buddha wanted to avoid this question. He did not want his whole philosophy dismantled.

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Syamasundara dasa: In the male species, at any rate, the temperament is different, isn' it? There is dominance and aggression.

Srila Prabhupada: There is no different temperament. We can see that the female also has the same temperament because she wants to be treated equally, just like a man. In any case, the real position is that every living entitiy is originally female, but under illusion he attempts to become a male, an enjoyer. This is called maya. Although a female by constitution, the living entity is trying to imitate the supreme male, Krsna. When we come to ur origianl consciousness, we understand that we are not the predominator but the predominated.

Syamasundara dasa: Jung noticed male and female characteristics reflected in nature. For instance, a mountain may be considered male because it is strong and dominant, whereas the sea is female because it is passive and is the womb of life.

Srila Prabhupada: These are all mental concoctions. They have no real scientific value. You may imagine things like this, but the real identity of these things is different. Life is not generated from the ocean; rather, everything is generated from the breathing of Lord Visnu, who lies in the causal ocean. If I am lying on this bed, and something emanates from my breathing, does this mean that something is emanating from the bed?

Syamasundara dasa: But aren’t there specific male and female characteristics?

Srila Prabhupada: The only male is God. Male means enjoyer, and female means enjoyed. But for God, no one is the enjoyer. Therefore He is the only male.

Syamasundara dasa: Then it is false to think of anything as masculine besides God?

Srila Prabhupada: Masculine is different. We speak of the masculine gender. the linga is the symbol of masculinity in the material body. In Bengali, it is said that one can tell if an animal is male or female simply by raising its tail. But these are material considerations. the real male is Krsna.

Syamasundara dasa: But couldn’t you refer to the ocean as "mother ocean"?

Srila Prabhupada: You may in the sense that the ocean contains so many living entities, just as the female contains a child within her womb. Or you may speak of a mountain as being male because of its strength and durability. In that sense, you may make these comparisions, but you should not think that these are the real identities of these things.

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Hayagriva dasa: Jung classifies five types of rebirth. One is metempsychosis, by which "… one’s life is prolonged in time by passing through different bodily existences; or, from another point of view, it is a life sequence interrupted by different reincarnations… It is by no means certain whether continuity of personality is guaranteed or not: there may only be a continuity of karma."

Srila Prabhupada: A personality is always there, and bodily changes do not affect it. However, one identifies himself according to his body. When the soul, for instance, is within the body of a dog, he thinks according to that particular bodily conception. He thinks, "I am a dog, and I have my particular duty." In human society, when one is born in America, for instance, he thinks, "I am an American, and I have my duty." According to the body, the personality is minifest, but in all cases, personality is there.

Hayagriva dasa: But is this personality continuous?

Srila Prabhupada: Certainly the personality is continuous. At death, the same soul passes into another gross body, along with its mental and intellectual identifications. The individual acquires different types of bodies, but the person is the same.

Hayagriva dasa: This would correspond to what Jung calls reincarnation, the second type of rebirth: "This concept of rebirth necessarily implies the continuity of personality," he writes. "Here the human personality is regarded as continuous and accessible to memory, so that when one is incarnated or born, one is able, at least potentially, to remember that one has lived through previous existences and that these existences were one’s own, i.e., that he had the same ego form as the present life. As a rule, reincarnation means rebirth in a human body."

Srila Prabhupada: Not necessarily into a human body. From Srimad-Bhagavatam, we learn that Bharata Maharaja became a deer in his nxt life, and after being a deer, he became a brahmana. The soul is changing bodies just as a man changes his dress. The man is the same, although his dress may be different.

 

"As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones." (Bg. 2.22)

 

When a dress is old and cannot be used anymore, one has to excahange it for another. In a sense, you purchase a new dress with the money, or karma, you have accumulated in your life. The man is the same, but his fress is supplied according to the price he can pay. According to your karma, you receive a certain type of body.

Hayagriva dasa: For Jung, the third type of rebirth, called resurrection, may be of two types: "It may be a carnal body, as in the Christian assumption that this body will be resurrected." That is, according to Christian doctrine, at the end of the world, the gross bodies will reassemble themselves and ascend into heaven, or descend into hell.

Srila Prabhupada: And what will the person do in the meantime?

Hayagriva dasa: I don’t know, obviously the material elements disperse.

Srila Prabhupada: The material body is finished, but the spiritual body is always there. this type of resurrection talked about is applicable to God and His representatives, not to all. In this case, it is no a material body, but a spiritual one. When God appears, He appears in a spiritual body, and this body does not change. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says that He spoke to the sun god millions of years ago, and Arjuna questioned how this could be possible. Krsna replies that although Arjuna had been present, he could not remember. Remembrance is possible only if one does not change bodies. Changing bodies means forgetting.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung admits that on a higher level, the process is not material. "It is assumed that the resurrection of the dead is the raising up of the corpus glorificaciones, the subtle body, in the state of incorruptibility."

Srila Prabhupada: That is the spiritual body, which never changes. According to the Mayavadi conception, the Absolute Truth is impersonal, and when He comes as a person, He accepts a material body. Those who are advanced in spiritual knowledge, who accept the Bhagavad-gita, understand that this is not the case.

 

"Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." (Bg. 9.11)

 

Because Krsna appears like a human being, the unintelligent think that He is nothing but a human being. They have no knowledge of the spiritual body.

Hayagriva dasa: The fourth form of rebirth is called renovatio, and this refers to "the transformation of a mortal into an immortal being, of a corporeal into a spiritual being, and of a human into a divine being." As an example, Jung cites the ascension of Christ into heaven.

Srila Prabhupada: We say that the spiritual body never dies, and the material body is subject to destruction. Nayam hanti na hanyate (Bg. 2.19) After the material body’s destruction, the spiritual body is still there. It is neither generated nor killed.

Hayagriva dasa: But aren’t there examples of a kind of ascension inot heaven? Didn't Arjuna ascend?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and Yudhisthira. There are many instances. The special instance is Krsna Himself and His associates. But we should never consider their bodies material. They didn’t go through death of any sort, although their bodies traveled to the higher universe. but it is also a fact that everyone possesses a spiritual body.

Hayagriva dasa: The fifth type of rebirth is indirect, like an initiation ceremony, or the twice-born ceremony of transformation. "Through his presence at the rite, the individual participates in divine grace."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, one’s first birth is by his father and mother, and the next birth is by the spiritual master and Vedic knowledge. When one takes his second birth, he comes to understand that he is not the material body. this is spiritual education. that birth of knowledge, or birth into knowlege, is called dvijah.

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Hayagriva dasa: Jung sees atheistic Communism as the greatest threat in the world today. He writes: "The state has taken the place of God; that is why, seen from this angle, the socialist dictatorships are religions, and state slavery is a form of worship."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, I agree with him. Atheistic Communism has contributed to the degradation of human civilization. The communists supposedly believe in the equal distribution of wealth. According to our understanding, God is the Father, material nature the mother, and living entities the sons. The sons have a right to live at the cost of the father. The entiere universe if the property of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and living entities are being supported by the Supreme Father. However, we should be satisfied with the supplies allotted to us. According to Isopanisad, tena tyaktena bhunjitha (Isopanisad 1). We should be satisfied with our allocation, and not envy another or encroach upon his property. We should not envy the capitalist or the wealthy because everyone is given his allotment by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, everyone should be satisfied with what he receives. On the other hand, no one should exploit others. One may be born in a wealthy family, but he should not interfere with the rights of others. Whether one is rich or poor, we should be God conscious, accept God’s arrangement, and serve God to his fullest. This is the philosophy of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and it is confirmed by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We should be content with our allocations from God, and concern ourselves with advancing in Krsna consciousness. If we become envious of the rich, we will be tempted to encroach upon their allotment, and in this way we are diverted from our service to the Lord. the main point is that everyone, rich or poor, should engage in God’s service. If everyone does so, there will be real peace in the world.

Hayagriva dasa: In the socialist state, the goals of religion are turned into worldly promises of bread, “the just distribution of material goods, universal prosperity in the future, and shorter working hours.”

Srila Prabhupada: This is because they have no understanding of spiritual life, nor can they understand that the person within the body is eternal and spiritual. Therefore they recommend immediate sense gratification.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung believed, however, that Marxism cannot possibly replace religion. "A natural function which has existed from the beginning… cannot be disposed of with rationalistic and so-called enlightened criticism."

Srila Prabhupada: The Communists are concerned with adjusting material things that can never be adjusted. They imagine that they can solve problems, but ultimately their plans will fail. The communists do not understand what religion is. It is not possible to avoid religion. Everything has a particular characteristic. Salt is salty, sugar is sweet, and chili is hot and pungent. These are intrinsic characteristics. similarly, the living entity has an intrinsic quality. His characteristic is to render service, be a Communist, a theist, a capitalist, or whatever. In all countries, people are working and rendering serive to their respective governments––be they capitalists or Communists––and the people are not profiting. therefore, we say that if people follow the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu by serving Krsna, they will be happy. In the material world, peple are rendering service, and they are not happy doing so because their respective service is actually meant for Krsna. Therefore, for the sake of happiness, people should individually and collectively render service to Krsna. When that service is misplaced, we are never happy. Both Communists and capitalists are saying, "Render service to me," but Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya (Bg. 18.66) "Just render Me service, and I will free you from all sinful reactions."

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This thread is taken from the Philosophy series transcripts on which "Dialectic Spiritualism" is based. It is not included in the book. Perhaps they think it's too controverisal. I can see how some self-righteous American "hawks" would be upset.

 

Hayagriva: He says, "A natural function which has existed from the beginning like the religious function cannot be disposed of with rationalistic and so-called enlightened criticism."

Prabhupada: The thing is that these people, they do not understand what is religion. Religion you cannot avoid. That is characteristic. Just like we gave several times this example, that everything has got a particular characteristic. Just like salt, salt is never sweet, and sweet is never salt. It has got a characteristic. A chile is pungent. Similarly, living entity, we are..., what is our characteristic? Our characteristic is to render service. Either you take Communism or this "ism" or that "ism," your real characteristic to render service, that will not change. The, in the capitalist country they are asking people that "You work in the factory and work for me, and whatever I say, you do," and the same thing is being dictated by the Communist leaders. Where is the difference? There is no difference, but it is only difference of nonsensical idea. Therefore a mass of people, they have to render service, either to Mr. Lenin or Mr. Roosevelt, it doesn’t matter. He has to render service. But both the services are not being profitable to the mass of people. Therefore we suggest following the footprints of Srila Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that you serve Krsna. Service is your essential duty, but because your service is wrongly being executed, you are not happy. But if you render your service to Krsna, that is natural and you will be happy. So our Krsna conscious men, they are happy when rendering service to Krsna, or God. So individually or collectively, if every state, every individual person renders service to Krsna, then that is perfect stage of life. He has to render service to somebody, but because it is misplaced, he is never happy, but when the service is rendered to Krsna, then he will be happy. Service you have to render, without any failure, but he does not know where to render service. That is the difficulty. Communist dictating, "You, sir, render service to me," and the capitalist dictating, "Give me service, sir." But Krsna says, "No. No service to this, no service..." Sarva-dharman parityajya: [bg. 18.66] "You simply give your service to Me, then aham tvam sarva-papebhyo, you will become free from all sinful reaction of life." That is our position.

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Hayagriva dasa: Jung writes: “It is unfortunately only too clear that if the individual is not truly regenerated in spirit, society cannot be either, for society is the sum total of individuals in need of redemption.”

Srila Prabhupada: True, the basis of change is the individual. Now there are a few disciples individually initiated into Krsna consciousness, and if a large percentage can thus become invigorated, the face of the world will change. There is no doubt of this.

Hayagriva dasa: For Jung, the salvation of the world consists in the salvation of the individual soul. "His individual relation to God would be an effective shield against these pernicious influences."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, those who seriously take to Krsna consciousness are never troubled by Marxism, this-ism, or that-ism. a Marxist may take to Krsna consciousness, but a Krsna conscious devotee would never become a Marxist. It is not possible. It is explained in Bhagavad-gita that when one knows the highest perfection of life, he cannot be misled by a third or fourth-class philosophy.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung also felt that materialistic progress could be a possible enemy to the individual. "A favorable environment merely strengthens the dangerous tendency to expect everything to originate from outside," he writes, "even that metamorphosis which external reality cannot provide, mainly, a deep-seated change of the inner man… "

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, everything originates from inside, from the soul. It is confirmed by Bhaktivinoda Thakura and others that material progress is essentially an expansion of the external energy, maya, illusion. We are livng in illusion, and so-called scientists and philosophers cannot even understand God and their relationship to Him, despite their material advancement. Material advancement and knowledge are actually hindrances to the progressive march of Krsna consciousness. To live a saintly life, we minimize our necessities. We are not after luxurious living. We feel that life is meant for spiritual progress and Krsna consciousness, not for material advancement.

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Hayagriva dasa: To inspire this deep-seated change in the inner man, Jung feels that a proper teacher is needed, someone to explain religion.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, according to the Vedic injunction, it is essential to seek out a guru, who, by definition, is a representative of God. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-çastrair (Sri Gurv-astaka 7). The representative of God is worshipped as God, but he never says, “I am God.” Although he is worshippped as God, he is the servant of God. God Himself is always master. Caitanya Mahaprabhua requested everyone to become a guru. "Whatever you are, it doesn’t matter. Simply become a guru and deliver all these people who are in ignorance." One may say, "I am not very learned. How can I become a guru?" Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that it is not necessary to be a learned scholar, for there are many so-called learned scholars who are fools. It is only necessary to impart Krsna’s instructions, which are already there in Bhagavad-gita. Whoever explains Bhagavad-gita as it is is a guru by definition. If one is fortunate enough to approach such a guru, his life becomes successful.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung points out that "our philosophy is no longer a way of life, as it was in antiquity; it has turned into an exclusively intellectual and academic affair."

Srila Prabhupada: That is also our opinion. Mental speculation has no value in itself. We must be directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and, using all reason, assimilate the instructions given by Him. We can then follow these instructions in our daily life and do good to others by teaching Bhagavad-gita.

Hayagriva dasa: He sees on the one hand an exclusively intellectual philosophy, and on the other, denominational religions with “archaic rites and conceptions," which have “become strange and unintelligible to the man of today… "

Srila Prabhupada: That is because preachers of religion are simply dogmatic. They have no clear idea of God; they make only official proclamations. When one does not understand, he cannot make others understand. But there is no such vanity in Krsna consciousness, which is clear in every respect. This is the expected movement Mr. Jung wanted. Every sane man should cooperate with this movement and liberate human society from the gross darkness of ignorance.

Hayagriva dasa: He describes the truly religious man as one "who is accustomed to the thought of not being sole master of his own house. He believes that God, and not he himself, decides in the end."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the natural situation. What decisions can we make? Since there is already a controller over us, how can we be absolute? Everyone should depend on the supreme controller and fully surrender to Him.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung feels that modern man should ask himself, "Have I any religious experience and immediate relation to God, and hence that certainty which will keep me, as an individual, from dissolving in the crowd?" Our relationship with God ultimately assures our own individuality.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, all living entities are individuals, and God is the supreme individual. According to the Vedic version, all individuals are subordinate to Him. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha-upanisad 2.2.13). The supreme individual is one, and the subordinate are many. The supreme individual is maintaining His subordinates, just as a father maintains his family. When the children learn to enjoy their father’s property without encroaching upon one another, accepting what is allotted to them, they will attain peace.

Hayagriva dasa: That ends our session on Jung.

Srila Prabhupada: So far, he seems the most sensible.

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Syamasundara dasa: Freud did not believe that forgetfulness is artificial. He felt that it is a natural instinct to forget painful experiences.

Srila Prabhupada: Well, that is so. For instance, when you were in the womb of your mother, you were in a very, very painful situation. Now you have forgotten that experience, and that forgetfulness is certainly natural. It is a fact that you were confined to a womb, but you cannot remember this. When you think about it, you can understand what a horrible situation that was. However, the sastras say that even though you have forgotten this, you have not escaped the situation. You are waiting for a similar painful experience.

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Syamasundara dasa: The ego develops strategies of defense against this anxiety engendered by the id. Whenever there is a strong animalistic desire, the ego represses it for self-preservation.

Srila Prabhupada: Repression is always there. If we are diseased, and the doctor advises us not to take solid food, we have to repress our appetite. In the system of brahmacarya, the brahmacari represses his desire for sex. This is called tapasya, voluntary repression. Of course, this is very difficult without some better engagement. Therefore, as I said, we have to replace an inferior engagement with a superior one. When you are captivated by seeing the beautiful form of Krsna, you naturally no longer desire to see the beautiful form of a young woman.

Syamasundara dasa: The Buddhists speak not only of the repression of desires, but of their extinction.

Srila Prabhupada: We don't advocate that. There will always be desires, and sometimes we have to repress them. My Guru Maharaja used to say that as soon as you rise from bed, you should beat you mind a hundered times with your shoes, and when you go to bed at night, you should beat your mind a hundered times with a broomstick. In this way, you will be able to control your mind. Wild tigers have to be controlled by repression, but when the tigers are under control, there is no question of repression. then you can play with the tigers and they will be your friends. So repression is not always bad.

Hayagriva dasa: Freud considered sexual repression to be harmful, but sublimation to be often beneficial. He didn’t advocate total sexual freedom; rather he suggested that instead of trying to deny the sex drive, we should try to redirect it, perhaps to some artistic activity, or positive study.

Srila Prabhupada: This means diverting our attention, and that is recommended in the Vedic culture for the brahmacari. If we are taught Krsna from the very beginning of our life, we will forget sex. Even if an adult takes to Krsna consciousness seriously, he can also forget sex. That is the experience of Yamunacarya: Yadavadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravinde. "Since I have been engaged in Krsna consciousness, every time I think of sex, I spit." If we engage in sex without restriction, we will eventually become impotent. That is nature's way of punishment. sex cannot be artificially repressed, but there is a proper training process.

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Sysmasundara dasa: Freud felt that most of our problems , which are sexual in nature, can be cured by recalling painful experiences and objectively analyzing them.

Srila Prabhupada: We must understand why this sex problem is there. If we tolerate a little itching sensation, we will be spared much pain. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham. "Sex life is compared to the rubbing of two hands to relieve an itch. Grhamedhis, householders without spiritual knowledge, think that this itching is the greatest platform of happiness, although actually it is a source of distress." (Bhag. 7.9.45) When ordinary men are overly attached to materialistic life, their only happiness is sexual intercourse. The sastras say that happiness derived from sexual intercourse is very, very insignificant. Indeed, it is not even happiness. At best, it may be considered a tenth-class happinness. because people have no idea of the happiness of Krsna consciousness, they think that sex is the highest happiness. But if we analyze it, what kind of happiness is it? When we have an itch, we scratch it and feel some pleasure, but after that pleasure passes, the effects are abominable. The itch becomes worse. The sastras tell us that if we just try to tolerate this itching sensation, we will be spared a great deal of pain. This is possible if we practice this Krsna consciousness.

Sysmasundara dasa: Freud believed that neuroses, disorders, anxieties, and frustratins have their origin in repression.

Srila Prabhupada: And I am telling you that all these are due to sex. But we are not advocating repression. We give facility in the form of a wife. The sex impulse is to be directed to the wife.

Sysmasundara dasa: But Freud insisted that the sex impulse is present at the very beginning of life.

Srila Prabhupada: We also admit that We say that as soon as the living being is embodied, he experiences hunger and sex. Why is that? Ahara-nidra-vyavayah. We find these impulses even in the animals. These drives are already there. What is the use in philsophizing about them?

Sysmasundara dasa: Through psychoanalysis, pent-up emotions can be released, and the original shock mitigated by remembering and confessing.

Srila Prabhupada: But what guarantee is there that we will not receive another shock? The living entity is recieving shock after shock. You try to cure him of one, and another comes. It is a fact tha material life is painful. As soon as you receive this material body, you must suffer the threefold miseries. Everyone is seeking happiness, but unless materialistic life is stopped, unless we put an end to birth, old age, disease, and death, there is no question of happiness. Materialistic life is a disease, and Vedic civilization attempt to cure this desiease. Our program is total cure. No more shock. Freud’s treatment is useless because he cannot guarantee that there will not be another shock. If you are situated in real Krsna consciousness, the worst type of misery may face you, and you will not be disturbed. you will not experience any shock at all. Freud was trying to cure his patients of the results of some shock they had experienced years ago, but there is no guarantee that a similar shock will not come again. Rather, the living entity will receive one shock after another after another.

 

"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." (Bg. 7.14)

 

As soon as we try to solve one problem, another problem comes, then another. If we are in Krsna consciousness, there are no more shocks.

Sysmasundara dasa: Freud believed that our present personality is greatly influenced by our sexual experiences in infancy and childhood.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore we are trying to train our boys as brahmacaris. Of course, there is the tendency for sex, but by practicing brahmacarya, by diverting our attention to Krsna, there will be very little chance that a shock will come about. If the Vedic system is followed by human society, these shocks will not be there.

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Hayagriva dasa: Freud also tied infantilism in with the religious impulse. He wrote: "Psychoanalysis, which has taught us the intimate connection between the father complex and belief in God, has shown us that the personal God is psychologically nothing but an exalted father… Youthful persons lose their religious belief as soon as the authority of the father breaks down." Thus Freud sees God as a father figure arising out of the helplessnes experienced by the little child.

Srila Prabhupada: How can the little child invent his father? Was he not born of his father? And how can he abandon the idea of his father? Without a father, how can one come into being? even Freud had a father, grandfather, and so on back. We speak of God as the first father because there is no one beyond Him.

Hayagriva dasa: Still, Freud considers belief in God as infantile. In The future of an Illusion, he writes: "Man cannot remain a child forever; he must venture at last into the hostile world." Instead of continuing to dwell in such a nursery, man should try to rid himself of the psychic crutch of religion.

Srila Prabhupada: What is his definition of childishness? Everyone must be a child, and everyone must have a father. Just as we cannot deny our biological father, we cannot deny the ultimate Supreme Father.

Hayagriva dasa: It is not that he is denying biological fathers, but the idea of a Supreme Father, which he felt arouse out of man’s initial helpless state.

Srila Prabhupada: Helplessness is always there, because the threefold miseries will always exist in material life. There will always be miseries arising from the body and mind, miseries inflicted by other living entities, and natural catastrophes. In addition, there is always birth, old age, disease, and death. it is only a fool or a rascal who hopes against hope and makes plans to overcome all these difficulties. However we may plan, nature is so strong that it will smash our plans to pieces with the kick of death. Man hopes against hope to adjust material things so that he can be happy in this world, but this is foolishness. Man is helpless at every step.

Hayagriva dasa: Freud felt that belief in God the Father is “so patently infantile, so incongruous with reality, that to one whose attitude to humanity is friendly, it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life.”

Srila Prabhupada: So what is his reality? Belief in god may be infantile to him, but what is he except a child? How is it that he is more than a child? Can he give an ultimate solution that will rid man of his helplessness?

Hayagriva dasa: Well, he personally hoped that psychoanalysis would provide the answers.

Srila Prabhupada: How can a common man understand psychoanalysis? The fact is that there is a suprem controller who is present everywhere. Psychoanalysis should begin with this point. Why is he defying this fact?

Hayagriva dasa: He sincerely believed that the maturation process necessarily entails ridding oneself of religion. He writes: "If one attempts to assign religion its place in man’s evolution, it seems not so much to be a lasting acquisition as a parallel to the neuroses which the civilized individual must pass through on his way from childhood to maturity."

Srila Prabhupada: He has reached this conclusion because he has seen so many sentimental religions, but first of all he must understand what religion actually is. Religion is not possible without an understanding of God, and a religion without God cannot truly be called a religion. According to the Vedic system, religion refers to the orders of God; therefore if we have no conception of God, we cannot be said to have a religion. If we do not know God or His nature, how can we know the orders God is giving?

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Syamasundara dasa: For Freud, the sexual energy, or libido, is not only manifest through sexual intercourse. It is associated with a wide variety of pleasurable sensations relating to bodily activities and including pleasures of the mouth and the different organs.

Srila Prabhupada: We have already said that the only happiness in this material world is considered to be sexual. Yan maithunadi (Bhag. 7.9.45). The word adi means the basic principle, which, in the material world, is sex. What is materialistic happiness? It is enjoying this life with one’s friends and family. But what kind of pleasure is this? It is compared to a drop of water in the desert. Actually, we are seeking unlimited pleasure. Anandamayo ’bhyasat. How can this drop of water in the desert, which is materialistic pleasure, ever satisfy us? No one is satsified, although people are having sex in so many different ways. And now young girls are almost going naked, and the female population is increasing everywhere. As soon as there is an increase in the female population, the woman say, "Where are the men?" Then there must be disaster because every woman is trying to attract a man, and men will take advantage of this situation. When milk is available in the market, what is the use of keeping a cow? The more men become attached to women, the more the female population will increase.

Syamasundara dasa: How is that?

Srila Prabhupada: When you have more sex, your power to beget a male child is diminished. When the man is less potent, a girl is born, and when a man is more potent, a boy is born. If a man’s discharge is larger, there will be a male child. If the woman’s discharge is larger, there will be a female child. When women are easily available, men become weak, and they beget female children because they loose their power from over-indulgence. Sometimes they even become impotent. If you don’t restrict your sex life, there will be so many disasters. Yamunacarya says:

 

"Since I have been engaged in the transcendental loving service of Krsna, realizing ever-new pleasure in Him, whenever I think of sex pleasure, I spit at the thought, and my lips curl with distaste."

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Syamasundara dasa: Freud would consider this a form of repression.

Srila Prabhupada: His idea of repression is different from ours. Our repression means rising early in the morning, attending mangala-aratik, chanting the Hare Krnsa maha-mantra, and engaging in devotinal service. In this way, we repress material propensities.

Syamasundara dasa: In other words, it’s repression with awareness and knowledge.

Srila Prabhupada: Actual knowledge will come later. In the beginning, there is obedience to the spiritual master. In this way, we will not become habituated to undesirable activity.

Syamasundara dasa: Yet by remembering some traumatic or shocking experience, our tensions are often relieved, and personality disorders rectified. This is a fact of psychoanalysis.

Srila Prabhupada: That may be, but when a seed has fructified and grown into a tree, it is no longer possible to rectify the seed. The seed is no longer there. It has changed into a tree. Freud may be able to find out the cause, but does he know the cure? Our cure is to divert the attention to Krsna. By understanding Krsna, we automatically forget our problems. Krsna is the panacea for all diseases.

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Hayagriva dasa: Concerning early religious training, Freud writes: "So long as man’s early years are influenced by the religious though-inhibition and by the lower one drived from it, a well as by the sexual one, we cannot really say what he is actually like." Freud strongly believed that early religious education warps a man’s natural development.

Srila Prabhupada: What is wrong with informing a child that there is a Supreme Being controlling the whole cosmic situation? Is it that Freud did not believe in education?

Hayagriva dasa: He felt that children should not be indoctrinated with religious “thought-inhibitions.”

Srila Prabhupada: But there must be some form of education, and spiritual education is the most important. The only business of human life is to learn about God. Lower species cannot understand God, but understanding is possible in the human form. Therefore spiritual education is primary.

Hayagriva dasa: Marx called religion “the opiate of the people,” and Freud similarly says that "the consolations of religion may be compared to that of a narcotic."

Srila Prabhupada: As I have said before, neither Marx nor Freud know what religion is, and that is their difficulty. First, they have to learn what religion is before they can discuss it intelligently.

Hayagriva dasa: Freud writes: "The believer will not let his faith be taken from him neither by arguments nor by prohibitions. And even if it did succeed with some, it would be a cruel thing to do. A man who has for decades taken a sedative is naturally unable to sleep if he is deprived of it… "

Srila Prabhupada: It is also cruel to mislead people by telling them that God the Father is simply an infantile conception. That is real cruelty. It is cruel to stress sex and death and eny the conception of God as the Supreme Father.

Hayagriva dasa: Freud would not think that it is cruelty to disenchant man with an illusion. He writes: "I disagree with you when you go on to argue that man cannot in general do without the consolation of the religious illusion, that without it he would not endure the troubles of life, the cruelty of reality."

Srila Prabhupada: Without a spiritual education, man remains an animal. A man’s life should be more than merely eating, sleeping, mating, defending, and dying. Man should stive to advance in spiritual knowledge. Spiritual education means understanding God. Freud may deny the existence of God, but in any case the conception of God is there in human society. One may accept or reject different conceptions of god, but the fact is undeniable that in every civilized country, there is some form of religion. One may be Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslem: the designation is not very important. Understanding God is the important factor, because that ultimate understanding is Vedanta, the ultimate conclusion of all knowledge. Athato brahma-jijnasa (Vedanta-sutra). Now, in this human form, is the time to inquire, "What is Brahman?" Brahman, the Absolute Truth, is the goal of real knowledge. Man does not have to be educated to understand sex. According to a Bengali proverb, you do not have to be taught how to cry, and when there is the impulse to enjoy sex, you enjoy it automatically. This doesn’t require the help of an educator like Mr. Freud. Everyone, animals and human beings, knows how to enjoy sex. There is no question of a “sex philosoophy.” Philsophy means inquiring into the Absolute Truth, Brahman, the supreme controller, He from whom everything has emanated. Philosophy is concerned with understanding where things come from. We may inquire into the origin of life on earth, and conclude that life comes from water, eath, or fire. Then, where do earth, water, and fire come from? He who is the source of everything is the Absolute Truth. In Bhagavad-gita, Lord Krsna says:

 

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." (Bg. 10.8)

 

You become a devotee of Krsna when you perfectly understand that Krsna is the ultimate source. This knowledge comes after many lifetimes of searching and searching.

 

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." (Bg. 7.19)

 

After understanding that Vyasadeva, Krsna, is everything, the mahatma, the great soul, begins his bhajana, his worship.

 

"O son of Prthu, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible." (Bg. 9.13)

 

Hayagriva dasa: Freud admits that without religion man will "find himself in a difficult situation. He will have to confess his utter helplessness and his insignificant part in the working of the universe." Yet he goes on to say that without religion, man will venture at last into the hostile world, and this venture is his "education to reality."

Srila Prabhupada: And what service has Mr. Freud rendered? He has misled the world and mad it more difficult for people to accept the words of God. Men who are innocent accept the words of God, but now many have become “over intelligent,” and they think that sex is God. It will take some time to counteract this type of mentality, but man must eventually learn that his happiness is found in understanding and accepting the way of life defined by God Himself.

Hayagriva dasa: Christ pointed out that unless one bcomes as a little child, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God, but Freud advocates “growing up” and setting this illsuion aside.

Srila Prabhupada: He may advocate so many things, but if he does not know the meaning of God, or God’s nature, what is the value of his knowledge? According to the Vedic philosophy, we should receive knowledge from a person who knows God. If one has not known God, his knowledge is useless, or, even worse, misleading. It is a fact that there is a supreme controller, and real education means understanding how the supreme controller is working. Denying Him is useless. He is there beyond our control, and we cannot avoid His control. We may make plans to live here very happily, but today or tomorrow, we may die. How can we deny the fact that we are being controlled? Knowledge means understanding how the supreme controller is controlling. People who defy religion and deny the existence of a supreme controller are like the jackal that keeps jumping and jumping, trying to reach grapes on a high vine. After seeing that he cannot reach the grapes, he says to himself, "Oh, there is no need to reach them. They are sour anyway." People who say that we do not need to understand God are indulging in sourgrape philosophy.

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Syamasundara dasa: Descartes worked with a four-part methodology which is now called Cartesian methodology. First of all, one is never to accept anything as true which is not known truly and distinctly to be true.

Srila Prabhupada: Of course it is commendable not to accept anything blindly, but if you do not have the intelligence to understand, you have to consult one who is intelligent.

Syamasundara dasa: He felt that the truth must be as clear and distinct as mathematical proof.

Srila Prabhupada: That is good provided one is a mathematician, but if one is a plowman, what can be understood about mathematics?

Syamasundara dasa: According to Descartes, it was up to those who could understand mathematics to chalk out the truth and pass it on to those less intelligent.

Srila Prabhupada: In other words, higher truth cannot be understood by everyone. We have to accept the truth from authorities. Therefore, we take the Vedas as truth. Sruti-pramanam. When the Vedas give evidence, we accept it whether we understand it or not.

Syamasundara dasa: The second part of this methodology involved dividing the complex into simpler and simpler parts in order to arrive at a solution. In this way, the whole will be proved.

Srila Prabhupada: But one must be expert in analysis. If I give you a typewriter to fix, and you know nothing about the machine, you will open it up, see all the parts, and not know how to adjust it. It is easy to open the machine up, but it is very difficult to adjust it.

Syamasundara dasa: The third part involved arranging ideas from the simplest to the more complex according to the sequence of events.

Srila Prabhupada: First of all, we must understand that we are spirit soul. That is the first step in our process. We must first understand ourselves and how we are existing despite these changes of bodies. We have to study ourselves as masters of our bodies. Then we can conclude that for the universal body there is another source. That is the Supersoul, or God Just as my body is existing due to my presence, the gigantic virat body exists due to the prescence of the Supersoul. Everything in the universe is constantly looking fresh and new; therefore there must be a large soul maintaining it. This is confirmed by the Vedas: aëò¢ntara-stha-param¢ëu-cay¢ntara-sthaà (Brahma-saàhit¢ 5.35). God is all-pervasive as Brahman, and He is also within the smallest atom. By His plenary expansion, god pervades the entire universe. According to the Vedas, there are different manifestations of God: Maha-visnu, Karanodakasayi-visnu, Garbhodakasayi-visnu, and Ksirodakasayi-visnu. What is the difficulty in understanding this? In large lamps and small lamps there is the same electricity. The Mayavadi philosophers consider only the similitude; they do not take the varieties into account. God is all-pervasive, but there is variety.

Syamasundara dasa: The fourth part of Cartesian methodology involves taking into account the most detailed points and making sure that nothing is omitted.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is knowledge. For instance, we are considering the details when we consider the difference between the Supreme Lord and ourselves.

Syamasundara dasa: And we can place everything in the scheme of Krsna’s creation?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna says aham sarvasya prabhavah. “I am the origin of all.” (Bg. 10.8) Krsna says that He is the bjia, the seed or soul, the spiritual spark of all living entities.

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Syamasundara dasa: Descartes also believed that we should carefully choose the life work which is best for our personal selves.

Srila Prabhupada: Well, if you are given that freedom, a drunkard will say that the best thing is to drink and sleep. Everyone has his own program, which he thinks is the best. So who will judge what is best? According to Vivekananda’s philosophy, whatver philosophy you select is all right. That is nonsense.

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Hayagriva dasa: In the same Meditations on First Philosophy, Descartes writes: “It is not in truth an imperfection in God that He has given me the freedom of assenting or not assenting to things of which He has not placed a clear and distinct knowledge in my understanding. On the other hand, it is an imperfection in me that I do not use this freedom right… ” But then, why doesn’t God give us the understanding by which we can choose properly in all cases? Why can’t we have free will and at the same time infallible judgement?

Srila Prabhupada: Free will means that you can act wrongly. Unless there is a chance of your acting properly or improperly, there is no question of free will. If I only act in one way, I have no freedom. We have freedom because we can sometimes act improperly.

Hayagriva dasa: In other words, freedom means that a man may know better, yet still act wrongly?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is free will: the freedom to misuse free will. A thief may know that stealing is bad, yet he steals. That is his free will in action. He cannot check his greed, despite his knowing that he is acting improperly and that he will be punished. He knows all the repercussions that result from stealing, yet he steals and misuses his free will. So unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.

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Syamasundara dasa: First of all, Descartes tried to find some basis for truth. Then he came to the proof of the existence of God. As far as philosophy is concerned, he maintained that it lacks certainty and that its tenets are always subject to dispute.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, we agree with that. It is said that a philosopher is not a philosopher unless he differs from other philosophers. If one is to be a great philosopher, he has to defy all his predecessors. Scientists also work in the same way. If we try to find out whose statement is true, we have a great deal of difficulty. Therefore the Vedic sastras enjoin that we follow the personalitites who have realized God, and therefore we follow Prahlada Maharaja, Dhruva Maharaja, Vyasadeva, Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, Kapila-deva, the twelve mahajanas, and their followers, the follower’s of Brahma’s disciplic succession, the Brahma-sampradaya, the Rudra-sampradaya, the Visnusvami-sampradaya, the Ramanuja-sampradaya, ans so on. If we follow the acaryas in the disciplic succession, our path is clear.

Syamasundara dasa: Descartes felt that because science is based on philosophical principles which have no basis in themselves, science is not worthy of our cultivation. He condemns people for using scientific technology to make more money. He said, “I am resolved no longer to seek any science other than knowledge of myself.”

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, but he had no guru.

Syamasundara dasa: No, he didn’t accept a guru. He accepted only what he could know through self-realization, the innate truths that he discovered in himself by meditation. First, he came to the understanding that I am, and later he concluded that because I am, God is.

Srila Prabhupada: That is a nice conclusion.

Syamasundara dasa: He had an obsession for the need of absolute certainty because he felt that all the conclusions of the philosopheres before him were dubious. He believed that every idea must be subjected to doubt until the truth or falsity can be ascertained, just as a mathematical formula can be ascertained. Every idea must be subjected to cross examination.

Srila Prabhupada: But when will these doubts be finished? Your standard of understanding self-evident truths may be diffrent from mine. So what is the standard? He must give some standard.

Syamasundara dasa: When Descartes meditated on the first philosophy, he concluded, cogito ergo sum, “I think, therefore I exist.” He felt that everything was subject to doubt with the exception of the act of doubting itself. since doubting is a part of thinking, the act of thinking is an undeniable experience. therefore he concluded that because I doubt, I think, and because I think, I exist.

Srila Prabhupada: That is a good argument. If I do not exist, how can I think? But is he condmning doubt or accepting doubt? What is his position?

Syamasundara dasa: He accepts doubt as the only real fact. Because I can doubt that my hand exists, it may be a hallucination, a dream, I can doubt that everything perceived exists because it may all be a dream, but the fact that I am doubting cannot be doubted.

Srila Prabhupada: So what is his conclusion? Should one stop doubting or continue doubting? If I doubt everything, I may come to the truth and then doubt the truth.

Syamasundara dasa: His point is that the truth cannot be doubted, but that to discover the truth, we have to doubt everything. When we come to the truth, the truth will be undoubtable.

Srila Prabhupada: But how do you come to the truth if your business is simply doubting? How will you ever stop doubting?

Syamasundara dasa: Well, I cannot doubt that I am, I exist. That truth is undoubtable. So he proceeds from there to the fact that since I exist, God exists.

Srila Prabhupada: Then his point is that by doubting, we come to a point where there is no more doubt. That is good. doubt in the beginning, then the truth as the conclusion. But in any case, that doubt must be resolved. I doubt becasue I am imperfect and because my knowledge is imperfect. So another question is how we can obtain perfection. As long as we are imperfect, there will be doubt.

Syamasundara dasa: He says that even though I am imperfect, there exists perfect knowledge, or a self-conscious awareness of perfect ideas within myself. Knowledge of the perfect is innate within me, and I can know it through meditation.

Srila Prabhupada: That is also acceptable.

Syamasundara dasa: Because I understand that I think, I can establish existence of my soul beyond all doubt.

Srila Prabhupada: Everyone thinks. Everyone is there, and everyone has a soul. There are countless souls, and this has to be accepted.

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Hayagriva dasa: Descartes writes: “I know that brutes do many things better than we do, but I am not surprised at it; for that also goes to prove that they act by force of nature. If they could think as we do, they would have have an immortal soul as well as we. But this is not likely, because there is no reason for believing it of some animals without believing it of all, and there are many of them too imperfect to make it possible to believe it of them, such as oysters, sponges, etc.”

Srila Prabhupada: First of all, living entities do not act by force of nature, but by force of God. Even in the heart of the brute, God is also present. God is within all, and He gives us instructions so that we can advance. When we attain the platform of human life, we have the alternative to refuse God’s instructions. Lower life forms do not have the power to refuse.

Hayagriva dasa: You have just said that whatever grows has a soul, including the grass.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, in a dormant stage. For instance, a child has a soul, but it is not yet developed because the body is not yet developed. According to the body and circumstances, the soul acts.

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Syamasundara dasa: Descartes considers five basic ideas to be inherent within every man, ideas which every man knows without having to verify. One is that God is innate to us as our own soul.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this is because we are part and parcel of God. For instance, in the material world, everyone knows that he has a father. This is common knowlege.

Syamasundara dasa: Secondly, it is impossible for something to originate out of nothing; every effect must have a cause, and therefore there is a cause of everything.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, we have discussed this. That ultimate cause is Krsna. We do not accept the Mayavadi philosophy because they philosophize in a negative way to try to make the ultimate truth zero.

Syamasundara dasa: Thirdly, it is impossible for a thing to exist and not exist at the same time.

Srila Prabhupada: Who protests this? Who says that something can exist and not exist simultaneously? Who is he trying to refute?

Syamasundara dasa: He is not refuting anyone. He says that this is an innate idea that we kow for certain without having to verify.

Srila Prabhupada: This body is a temporary manifestation, and this soul is always existing. Eventually, this body will not exist, but the owner of the body is eternal and existing eternally. If something is a temporary manifestation, we can say that it is simultaneously existing and not existing. On the material platform, everything is existing and not existing because it is temporary. for instance we are existing in this room right now, but at the next moment we may no be existing. The whole cosmic manifestation is like that. As stated in Bhagavad-gita:

 

“Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent there is no endurance, and of the existent thre is no cessatin. This seers have concluded by studying the nature of both.” (Bg. 2.16)

 

Because the soul is never created, the soul never dies. Everything that is born must die.

Syamasundara dasa: Descartes’s forth innate idea is that whatever is done can never be undone.

Srila Prabhupada: Karma cannot be undone. However, it can change. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells us to abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Him. If we do so, He will relieve us of all the reactions of karma. (Bg. 18.66) So in this sense it is not a fact that what is done cannot be undone.

Syamasundara dasa: Descartes is thinking in the realm of the physical. After I throw a ball, that ball can never be unthrown.

Srila Prabhupada: That is a child’s knowledge, not a philosopher’s. Direct perception is childish. A child believes so many things by direct perception. I remember that when I first saqw a train in Calcutta, I thought that within the engine there must have been horses, otherwise the train could not have run. This kind of thinking was not really philsophy. Of course, it is part of philosophy because all philosophers are nature’s children. Therefore they think in that way.

Syamasundara dasa: Descartes fifth principle is that we cannot be nonexistent as long as we are thinking.

Srila Prabhupada: We have already discussed this. Everyone thinks, and therefore everyone is a soul.