France and religious freedom

[Maitreya 0]

For a country that likes to give the image of tolerance France has really blown it.What do they make besides wine and boring movies so I can boycott them?

 

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Religious Freedom at Risk

By Vaishnava Communications Institute, Oxford

 

30 May 2001 For Immediate Release

 

The French National Assembly voted this afternoon in favour of a controversial new law that is designed to 'reinforce the repression of groups with a sectarian character'. The Bill has met with a considerable amount of criticism, notably from the Catholic and the Protestant Churches, the US State Department and the Council of Europe. Pope John Paul II has also expressed his concerns on the state of affairs in regards to religious freedom in France.

 

The law has the potential to dissolve any organisation, if the organisation or its leaders have a single legal conviction. Whilst the entire Catholic Church in France could be dissolved by this decree, the reality is that this law will target any minority group labelled by the French government as a 'cult'. Many religious and spiritual organisations in France, including mainstream Christian groups such as the Baptist Church, as well as practitioners of alternative medicine, are under threat by this law.

 

The authors of the Bill claim to protect the individual rights of French citizens, but the Bill itself raises a number of serious questions. Who decides what is an acceptable belief and what is of 'harmful character'; furthermore, how can a law be compatible with basic democratic principles, when its application is entirely subjective?

 

Cardinal Billé, President of the French Catholic Conference of Bishops, and Reverend de Clermont, President of the Protestant Churches of France, have both expressed their 'reservations' about the law in a letter to the French Prime Minister. They fear that the proposal will threaten 'fundamental liberties' and that the Bill could be 'subjected to trends, variations of time or to outside pressure'. They also question the ambiguous nature of the Bill, for it's directed towards 'sectarian groups', which is 'legally indefinable'.

 

Hong Kong is now expected to write a similar Bill, which they would use to ban Falun Gong, a Chinese health and meditation movement. They have been waiting for the French Parliament to adopt its Bill before composing their own. Merudevi Dasi, Deputy Director of the Vaishnava Communications Institute, fears that the Bill will 'act as a dangerous precedent for other countries wishing to adopt repressive measures against religious minorities. Eastern Europe is especially at risk, as many of these countries are in the process of changing their religious laws'.

 

ENDS

 

The Vaishnava Communications Institute serves as a resource centre for Vaishnava Hindus in Europe. The institute carries out research on religious liberty issues and actively participates in interfaith dialogue.

 

Merudevi Dasi

 

Tel: (01865) 304311 Email: merudevi@pamho.net Useful resource: www.cesnur.org

 

© CHAKRA 09 June 2001

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

For a country that likes to give the image of tolerance France has really blown it.What do they make besides wine and boring movies so I can boycott them?

 

 

I boycott everything French except Varnet sunglasses. No one else can spend the thirty separate days of hand polishing these fine lenses.

[Maitreya 0]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

I boycott everything French except Varnet sunglasses. No one else can spend the thirty separate days of hand polishing these fine lenses.

30 days!? I use $9 Silencios.I so cheap.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

30 days!? I use $9 Silencios.I so cheap.

 

 

You get what you pay for. When wearing sunglasses, the darkened lenses cause your pupils to dilate. If the lenses do not filter out the UV-A and UV-B radiations, you are gonna have big problems later in life, caused from sunburn to the retinas that have no nerve cells to inform you of the damage.

 

Good luck, dude.

[Maitreya 0]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

You get what you pay for. When wearing sunglasses, the darkened lenses cause your pupils to dilate. If the lenses do not filter out the UV-A and UV-B radiations, you are gonna have big problems later in life, caused from sunburn to the retinas that have no nerve cells to inform you of the damage.

 

Good luck, dude.

OK I'm convinced.I had never heard that but it makes sense.I'll upgrade.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

OK I'm convinced.I had never heard that but it makes sense.I'll upgrade.

 

 

 

There are many products manufactured in Amerika, Thailand, Mexico, etc. that have the proper specs. Be sure to look at the tag and verify UV-A & UV-B protection. REI on San Pablo Ave. has many sunglasses that are pukka for perhaps $20 -$40.

[Maitreya 0]

Thanks RandOM.

[amanpeter 0]

Don't get me started on those `Frenchies`! I grew up in Montreal, Quebec where my English language and British background are no longer welcome, to say the least. There are official government language police roving about checking on store signs, believe it or not! Gangs of Francophone thugs vandalize English businesses, homes, and cemetaries! Meanwhile, politically the tail wags the dog as Quebec controls federal policy, including the armed forces, which destroyed a perfectly good career for me and many others. Our French Liberal prime minister just voted himself a 40% raise in pay as he is about to retire, bringing his pension to $175,000. a year. All other federal politicians got another 20% added to their salaries. It was all pushed through with record haste immediately before their summer vacation. In this country a majority government can do whatever it wants! There's much more I could share here, but why bother, eh?

 

------------------

No offense meant to anyone...

[JRdd 0]

I love Gerard Depardieu. Didn't anyone see Cyrano de Bergerac? All the Mornings of the World? The Return of Martin Guerre?

[Maitreya 0]

Originally posted by JRdd:

I love Gerard Depardieu. Didn't anyone see Cyrano de Bergerac? All the Mornings of the World? The Return of Martin Guerre?

Why?I must ask why all women love this guy.I don't get it.JR can you explain this mystery to me?It is not just him as an actor,they swoon over him like he is some demigod or something.Mystery.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sorry about the sunglass digression, MC. We waz talking about the French. Here's a

<h3>Caption this photo of French President Jacques Chirac</h3>

 

[French President Jacques Chirac addresses the Institute of Higher National Defence studies (IHEDN) in Paris, June 8, 2001. Chirac expressed his reservations about a U.S. plan to build a space-based national missile defense, saying it could open a "Pandora's Box" and spark a new arms

race. REUTERS/Michel Lipchitz/POOL]

 

 

 

 

 

"We will build a large Maginot wall here, zen, we will hide behind de wall, zen, we will be slaughtered. Why doesn't the Unites States want to defend themselves like we do?"

 

or how 'bout:

 

"Hey Alice, did you iron my Hurricanes shirt yet?"

 

"Quickly, quickly, poooool my fingaire!!"

 

"I'd like to introduce my friend, Inspector Cleusceou. This is a great detective whom I have my arm around. Hee, hee. I used to hate to see him, but I have been cured of that by a great psychiatrist! Yes, I am better now, hee hee."

 

"J'ai recu pour ceci mettre la main sur un inter posterieur. Bill Clinton a recu son nob a poli. Pas juste!"

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Why?I must ask why all women love this guy.I don't get it.JR can you explain this mystery to me?It is not just him as an actor,they swoon over him like he is some demigod or something.Mystery.

 

 

Same reason they LOVE Tom Hanks! Less intelligence perhaps........ No mystery there.

[JRdd 0]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Why?I must ask why all women love this guy.I don't get it.JR can you explain this mystery to me?It is not just him as an actor,they swoon over him like he is some demigod or something.Mystery.

 

I honestly don't know.

 

He is not symmetrical beautiful or anything. He seems big and blundersome (or is that cumbersome?). He does seem awfully humble though. And sweet-natured.

 

Hmmm...his nose looks incredibly phallic but I forgive him that.

 

JR

 

 

[JRdd 0]

My sister loves Tom. He is from the Bay Area. Bay Area people often seem like the guy next door. Maybe that's what it is about Tom. Who can understand?

 

The ones who DON'T appeal to me, later I find out they have something really yukky in their personal attitudes. I really believe that through their roles the real thing can be generally sensed, overall. Women are intuitive.

 

What was this threada bout, anyway? I forgot but I think it was more important than this. Sunglasses?

 

JR

 

P.S. Hare Krishna!

 

JR

[Gauracandra 1]

Now lets not bag on the French too much I know we have atleast one devotee from France who posts to these forums occasionally.

 

As for Gerard Depardieu, I didn't realize he was a hunk with the chicks Quite frankly I've never understood the appeal of Brad Pitt or Matthew McCanauwhatshisface (the guy who looks like the Marlboro man). Maybe I'm just jealous

 

Gauracandra

[atma 0]

Hello,hello,there. French men are quite nice is I have to say it.

Someone told me that Srila Prabhupada said that: "English is for business, German is for dogs, French is for love and Spanish is for talking to God." Did anybody heard that before? Maybe the guy told me that just to impresses me

BTW, I like Brad Pitt with his funny face. If he can make money out of it I think he's smart enough. I agree that Gauracandra is jealous of him. When did you see his latest movie?

 

 

[This message has been edited by atma (edited 06-10-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by atma:

Hellow,hellow,there. French men are quite nice is I have to say it.

Someone told me that Srila Prabhupada said that: "English is for business, German is for dogs, French is for love and Spanish is for talking to God." Did anybody heard that before? Maybe the guy told me that just to impresses me

BTW, I like Brad Pitt with his funny face. If he can make money out of it I think he's smart enough. I agree that Gauracandra is jeaulous of him. When did you see his last movie?

 

Srila Prabhupada mentioned the famous saying: "You talk to a horse in English, a dog in German, and a lover in French." I believe he also mentioned the maxim: "Hell is a place where the politicians are French, the cooks are English, and the police are German."

[Maitreya 0]

LOL! and the woman are American?

 

JUST KIDDING!! PLEASE DON'T SCORCH ME!

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

LOL! and the woman are American?

 

Actually, it is the wives are American. But I've been on my best behavior since meeting Srila Gurudeva and left that part out.

[JRdd 0]

Guess some people just have bad luck. Or karma.

 

Now where's my torch?

 

[dasanudas 0]

Boycott the world! It's just not getting it right. Poiticians salaries really press my buttons.

I feel like Narrotam das Thakur. Should a' bin here yesterday kinea feelin, I seem to be outa'sync, where has that Great kirtan party gone? I'm simply left to weep. Maybe it's my French ancestors?

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Guess some people just have bad luck. Or karma.

 

 

LOL! Like the ones that crossed your path?

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by rand0M aXiS (edited 06-11-2001).]

[Jagat 1]

<h3>Canadian politics interlude...</h3>

 

Originally posted by amanpeter:

Don't get me started on those `Frenchies`! ...

You astonish me, Valaya, with this racist post. You are quite welcome in Quebec, let me assure you -- but on the terms of the majority population. Learn to speak French. It is the language of one of two founding peoples in Canada. If you were brought up in Montreal, how come you don't speak French? What does that show about British attitudes to the majority population? It is the attitude of a colonizing people towards the colonized. It reminds me of what is going on in Zimbabwe nowadays (see yesterday's Globe).

 

As far as Jean Chrétien's being French and voting himself a pay raise, this is another bit of racism. What do the two have to do with each other? Chrétien is the prime minister because he is one smart politician and the people from Ontario voted him in. French Quebecers consistently detest the guy and vote against him in droves. Maybe it's because he's in Ontario's pocket.

 

Anyway, for someone who shows generally open attitudes, you disappoint me for the shallowness of your critique of Canada's "Quebec problem."

 

Jagat

 

Jagat

[Jagat 1]

Back on topic<hr>

 

<h3>Cult crackdown called extreme</h3>

 

Scientology tops hit list in France

as new legislation against religious sects inches closer

 

MICHAEL VALPY

With reports from Agence France-Presse and The Guardian

 

Tuesday, June 12, 2001

 

France is moving forward with Europe's severest legislation against minority religious groups, igniting fears among civil-liberties organizations that it could invite similar measures by other governments.

 

Ignoring criticism from mainstream church leaders and foreign governments, especially Washington, France's National Assembly has passed a law "to reinforce the prevention and repression of groups of a sect-like character."

 

The French bill is awaiting final passage by the Senate, which is expected some time in the fall.

 

"This law makes the practice of one's religion into a criminal offence," said Joseph Grieboski, president of the Washington-based Institute on Religion and Public Policy.

 

The legislation contains two controversial parts.

 

First, it creates a new category of crime, carrying a maximum sentence of five years imprisonment, for abuse of a person "in a state of psychological or physical dependence caused by the exertion of heavy or repeated pressure or techniques liable to alter his judgment."

 

Second, it enables courts to order that officially designated cults be dissolved if two leading members are convicted of crimes such as fraud and child abuse.

 

Critics of the legislation say its language is too vague, leaving such terms as "sect,dependence" and "pressure" undefined.

 

The respected French daily Le Figaro pointed out that the lifestyle of a Carmelite nun could fall afoul of the legislation.

 

Others have said the law's vague language might describe some commercial marketing techniques.

 

There is also concern that France's attitude may be spreading.

 

Belgium, Germany, Austria and several Eastern European countries have also officially identified "sects," many of them American, for close monitoring.

 

Newspapers in Hong Kong have reported that the territorial government is planning similar legislation to control the Falun Gong movement, which is outlawed as an "evil cult" in the rest of China but is still legal in Hong Kong.

 

"Lawmakers and administrators in such countries use anticult initiatives of the minority [of] Western European states . . . as justification for even harsher measures that have adverse impacts on a wide range of smaller but legitimate religious groups," Professor W. Cole Durham, director of the International Center for Law and Religion Studies at Utah's Brigham Young University, said at a U.S. Senate committee hearing last month.

 

But French parliamentarian Catherine Picard, co-author of the bill, said critics have misunderstood the legislation and its objectives.

 

"We don't care about religion, that's not our problem," she said. "You can worship an orange in your kitchen as long as you don't disturb public order, as long as you don't force people and act in illegal ways."

 

According to a recent French poll, 73 per cent of respondents believe cults are a danger to democracy and 86 per cent would ban organizations such as the Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology, to which the French government has been paying close attention for 10 years.

 

"Right off the bat, I think they'll nail Scientology," said Rev. Louis DeMeo, a U.S.-born Baptist pastor who has lived in France for 20 years.

 

But Scientology is hardly alone in France's bad books.

 

The French Interministerial Mission to Battle Against Sects has drawn up a list of 172 officially designated sects with 400,000 adherents.

 

These groups are having difficulties elsewhere, too. In fact, the word evangelical -- a Christian term for preaching the Gospel (or good news) of Jesus Christ -- has come to be nearly synonymous with religious proselytizing.

 

In Germany, the Scientologists have been called a totalitarian group.

 

Scientologists, seeking to counter this label and the baggage it carries in Germany, have likened themselves to the persecuted Jews of the Second World War.

 

In Belgium, a list of designated cults includes groups that most North Americans consider to be relatively benign, such as the Amish, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Assemblies of God and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

"There is a very strong anti-religious bias that has emerged in Europe. "If you are an evangelical, you're a nut," Christopher Smith, a U.S. congressman who chairs the human-rights-monitoring Helsinki Commission, told the Washington Times recently.

 

Religious scholars and representatives of international religious bodies say Europeans have reacted with horror to cult-related tragedies around the world, such the recent sect suicide in Uganda, which claimed more than 900 lives.

 

 

[Maitreya 0]

Any Hare Krishna's in France that feel threatened?Let us here from you.