kailasa Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Diksa = yagya? I for example have love of the girl. And later married her. Love it diksa. Yagya does not mean diksa, nevertheless there is an external standard initiation. What it is better yagya or love? SBSST nitya siddha. Any are absolutely not necessary to him yagya. Babadjis probably speak constantly - love, love, love, but here have recollected suddenly about yagya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Diksa = yagya? Actually a fire yajna is a part of the diksha-ceremony only in Gaudiya Math and its sub-branches. It was introduced when Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati joined the upanayana-samskara of giving brahmin thread and brahma-gayatri with the pancaratrika-diksha where mantras for arcana are given. The fire sacrifice ("yajna") is a part of upanayana-samskara, and it serves a purpose in "installing" the brahma-gayatri. It is not a part of traditional pancaratrika-diksha. I for example have love of the girl. And later married her. Love it diksa. Yagya does not mean diksa, nevertheless there is an external standard initiation. What it is better yagya or love? What is better, marriage or love? Some say in a sane society they go hand in hand. Conjugal love without marriage is not acceptable in the eyes of the society, and marriage without love is rather stiff. They say, "Love and marriage, goes together like a horse and carriage." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted June 10, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 diksa it horse or carriage Prabhu? for you - diksa it horse yagya it carriage all right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted June 10, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 With out horse may long time lay in carriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Originally posted by kailasa: With out horse may long time lay in carriage. And without carriage, horse may not know where to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Originally posted by raga: And without carriage, horse may not know where to go. The carriage is not the director.The rider may choose to ride on the horse without the carriage. Giddiyup!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Originally posted by theist: The carriage is not the director.The rider may choose to ride on the horse without the carriage. Giddiyup!! A rider with a horse & carriage knows he must go somewhere with the carriage. A rider with a horse without a carriage may go joyridin' just about anywhere, if he is not very strong. The load of carriage keeps you on the road; a symbol of commitment, let us say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Originally posted by raga: A rider with a horse & carriage knows he must go somewhere with the carriage. Carriage does not insure he will go in the proper direction.He may turn left instead of right. The carriage may also give a false sense of security as he rides along in the wrond direction. A rider with a horse without a carriage may go joyridin' just about anywhere, if he is not very strong. True, he may mistake whimiscalicality(is this a word?) for spontaneaity.But the load in the carriage does not really insure against this.If fact a big load traveling recklessly can pose more dangers for those innocents that cross the carriages path. The load of carriage keeps you on the road; a symbol of commitment, let us say. Above. I'm off to the store now without a carriage, but could use one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 10, 2002 Report Share Posted June 10, 2002 Carriage does not insure he will go in the proper direction.He may turn left instead of right. The carriage may also give a false sense of security as he rides along in the wrond direction. Along with the carriage, you are supposed to get instructions on where to go. For the one who wishes to go here and there, why should he accept this burden of love? And for the one who accepts the burden of love with a sincere heart, will he not be guided by the Lord on his journey? True, he may mistake whimiscalicality(is this a word?) for spontaneaity.But the load in the carriage does not really insure against this.If fact a big load traveling recklessly can pose more dangers for those innocents that cross the carriages path. "whimiscali<font color=red>cali</font>ty". Something's extra there. The load does not insure safety, but the order of carrying the load does, to the extent of our sincerity. A mad elephant will cause havoc with or without a carriage, this we all know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 Now I'm totally confused. Where did the elephant come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 11, 2002 Report Share Posted June 11, 2002 Originally posted by gHari: Now I'm totally confused. Where did the elephant come from? It's all been in deep code gHari. But mad elephants are really scary.I've decided to walk for awhile and just let this caravan pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted June 13, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2002 ***"whimiscalicality" What means caytya guru. With out carrige horse move well, in carriage more comfortable simply. Whot means diksa, it is connect guru-diciple, it is happenes BEFORE yagya. Yagya it oficial ceremony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 13, 2002 Report Share Posted June 13, 2002 I do not know why you want to use the term "yajna", since it has nothing to do with diksa. The term "diksa" is clearly used for the occasion of giving mantra. See Hari Bhakti Vilasa, second chapter. Of course we may produce a number of out-of-context definitions for the word at our "whimsicalicality". Would you like to present from where the word "diksa" comes to us, and in which context it is originally used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted June 14, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 **I do not know why you want to use the term "yajna", since it has nothing to do with diksa. Both is good. **Would you like to present from where the word "diksa" comes to us, and in which context it is originally used? In higt sense it is guru show his spiritual positions. It is posible before yajna, it is posible after yajna. In ordinary sense diksa is accept guru - " am wont follow guru maharadja ". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 Originally posted by kailasa: **I do not know why you want to use the term "yajna", since it has nothing to do with diksa. Both is good. **Would you like to present from where the word "diksa" comes to us, and in which context it is originally used? In higt sense it is guru show his spiritual positions. It is posible before yajna, it is posible after yajna. In ordinary sense diksa is accept guru - " am wont follow guru maharadja ". Both is not good. The word "yajna" is not used for diksha. If you wish to use the word, please justify its use by any scriptural reference. Otherwise it will only bear confusion. If you want to hold on to your view of how "diksa" is defined, please present from where the word "diksa" comes to us, and in which context it is originally used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted June 16, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 **If you want to hold on to your view of how "diksa" is defined, please present from where the word "diksa" comes to us diksa it is all - it is way to all - Krisna, demigods, Vaikuntha, Goloka, all. There is diksa. You understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 Originally posted by kailasa: **If you want to hold on to your view of how "diksa" is defined, please present from where the word "diksa" comes to us diksa it is all - it is way to all - Krisna, demigods, Vaikuntha, Goloka, all. There is diksa. You understand? I find it strange that people take a word with a common definition and want to define everything from boiling potatoes to visiting the peak of the spiritual world with this word. Why not be happy with the usage which is employed in the acaryas' writings? If one wants to express something else, then better use another word for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted June 20, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 Dékñä actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination. It is the spiritual master who delivers the disciple from the clutches of mäyä by initiating him into the chanting of the Hare Kåñëa mahä-mantra. In this way a sleeping human being can revive his consciousness by chanting Hare Kåñëa, Hare Kåñëa, Kåñëa Kåñëa, Hare Hare/ Hare Räma, Hare Räma, Räma Räma, Hare Hare. In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Viñëu. This is the purpose of dékñä, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness. Çréla Jéva Gosvämé explains dékñä in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283): divyaà jïänaà yato dadyät kuryät päpasya saìkñayam tasmäd dékñeti sä proktä deçikais tattva-kovidaiù “Dékñä is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as dékñä.” The regulative principles of dékñä are explained in the Hari-bhakti-viläsa (2.3,4) and in Bhakti-sandarbha (283). As stated: dvijänäm anupetänäà svakarmädhyayanädiñu yathädhikäro nästéha syäc copanayanäd anu tathäträdékñitänäà tu mantra-devärcanädiñu nädhikäro ’sty ataù kuryäd ätmänaà çiva-saàstutam “Even though born in a brähmaëa family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brähmaëa family, one becomes a brähmaëa after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brähmaëa, he cannot worship the holy name properly.” Hari-bhakti-viläsa (2.10) further quotes: ato guruà praëamyaivaà sarva-svaà vinivedya ca gåhëéyäd vaiñëavaà mantraà dékñä-pürvaà vidhänataù “It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything–body, mind and intelligence–one must take a Vaiñëava initiation from him.” The Hari-bhakti-viläsa (17.11,12) in discussing the puraçcaryä process, quotes the following verses from Agastya-saàhitä: püjä traikäliké nityaà japas tarpaëam eva ca homo brähmaëa-bhuktiç ca puraçcaraëam ucyate guror labdhasya mantrasya prasädena yathä-vidhi païcäìgopäsanä-siddhyai puraç caitad vidhéyate “In the morning, afternoon and evening, one should worship the Deity, chant the Hare Kåñëa mantra, offer oblations, perform a fire sacrifice, and feed the brähmaëas. These five activities constitute puraçcaryä. To attain full success when taking initiation from the spiritual master, one should first perform these puraçcaryä processes.” The word puraù means “before” and caryä means “activities.” Due to the necessity of these activities, we do not immediately initiate disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness.... In the Hari-bhakti-viläsa (17.4,5,7) it is stated: “Without performing the puraçcaryä activities, one cannot become perfect even by chanting this mantra for hundreds of years. However, one who has undergone the puraçcaryä-vidhi process can attain success very easily. If one wishes to perfect his initiation, he must first undergo the puraçcaryä activities. The puraçcaryä process is the life-force by which one is successful in chanting the mantra. Without the life-force, one cannot do anything; similarly, without the life force of puraçcaryä-vidhi, no mantra can be perfected.” Similarly in the Rämärcana-candrikä it is stated: vinaiva dékñäà viprendra puraçcaryäà vinaiva hi vinaiva nyäsa-vidhinä japa-mätreëa siddhidä In other words, the chanting of the Hare Kåñëa mahä-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in païcarätra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Kåñëa consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. The more one is freed from material identification, the more one can realize that the spirit soul is qualitatively as good as the Supreme Soul. At such a time, when one is situated on the absolute platform, he can understand that the holy name of the Lord and the Lord Himself are identical. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on puraçcaryä or puraçcaraëa, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on puraçcaryä-vidhi, or the regulative principles If one chants the holy name once without committing an offense, he attains all success. If one actually wants to serve Kåñëa, it doesn’t matter whether one is a çüdra, vaiçya, or even a woman. If one is sincerely eager to chant the Hare Kåñëa mantra or dékñä-mantra, he is qualified to be initiated according to the päïcarätrika process. According to Vedic principles, only a brähmaëa who is fully engaged in his occupational duties can be initiated. Çüdras and women are not admitted to a vaidika initiation. Unless one is fit according to the estimation of the spiritual master, one cannot accept a mantra from the päïcarätrika-vidhi or the vaidika-vidhi. When one is fit to accept the mantra, he is initiated by the päïcarätrika-vidhi or the vaidika-vidhi. In any case, the result is the same. Regarding mantra-siddhi-ädi-çodhana, the efficiency of the mantra, Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura gives sixteen divisions, which are confirmed in the Hari-bhakti-viläsa (beginning with 1.204): siddha-sädhya-susiddhäri- kramäj jïeyo vicakñaëaiù These are (1) siddha, (2) sädhya, (3) susiddha and (4) ari. These four principles can be divided further: (1) siddha-siddha, (2) siddha-sädhya, (3) siddha-susiddha, (4) siddha-ari, (5) sädhya-siddha, (6) sädhya-sädhya, (7) sädhya-susiddha, (8) sädhya-ari, (9) susiddha-siddha, (10) susiddha-sädhya, (11) susiddha-susiddha, (12) susiddha-ari, (13) ari-siddha, (14) ari-sädhya, (15) ari-susiddha, and (16) ari-ari. Those who are initiated with the eighteen-alphabet mantra do not need to consider the above-mentioned sixteen divisions. As enjoined in the Hari-bhakti-viläsa (1.215, 219, 220): na cätra çätravä doñä narëasvädi-vicäraëä åkñaräçi-vicäro vä na kartavyo manau priye nätra cintyo ’ri-çuddhyädir näri-miträdi-lakñaëam siddha-sädhya-susiddhäri- rüpä nätra vicäraëä There is çodhana, or purification of the mantra, but there is no such consideration for the Kåñëa mantra. Balitvät kåñëa-manträëäà saàskäräpekñaëaà na hi. “The Kåñëa mantra is so strong that there is no question of çodhana. (1.235) As far as dékñä is concerned, one should consult Madhya-lélä, Chapter Fifteen (108). On the whole, when a person is initiated according to the päïcarätrika-vidhi, he has already attained the position of a brähmaëa. This is enjoined in the Hari-bhakti-viläsa yathä käïcanatäà yäti käàsyaà rasa-vidhänataù tathä dékñä-vidhänena dvijatvaà jäyate nåëäm “As bell metal can be turned into gold when treated with mercury, a disciple initiated by a bona fide guru immediately attains the position of a brähmaëa.” When a person is serious about accepting dékñä, he must be prepared to practice austerity, celibacy and control of the mind and body. If one is so prepared and is desirous of receiving spiritual enlightenment (divyaà jïänam), he is fit for being initiated. Divyaà jïänam is technically called tad-vijïäna, or knowledge about the Supreme. Tad-vijïänärthaà sa gurum eväbhigacchet: when one is interested in the transcendental subject matter of the Absolute Truth, he should be initiated. Such a person should approach a spiritual master in order to take dékñä. Çrémad-Bhägavatam (11.3.21) also prescribes: tasmäd guruà prapadyeta jijïäsuù çreya uttamam. “When one is actually interested in the transcendental science of the Absolute Truth, he should approach a spiritual master.” Dékñä means initiation. Di means divya jïänam, and kña means kñapayati. From the day of initiation, you simply get spiritual knowledge, transcendental knowledge. Di... Divya. There are two words, divya-jïäna. Divya-jïäna means transcendental, spiritual knowledge. So divya is dé, and jïänam, kñapayati, explaining, that is kña, dé-kñä. This is called dékñä, dékñä, the combination. So dékñä means the initiation to begin transcendental activities. That is called initiation. Guest (1): Are you knowing people take dékñä from many gurus? Prabhupäda: No, dékñä-guru is one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted June 20, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 **But mad elephants are really scary. May be it is Lord Shiva on His bull? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 prefer to say letter------------. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Some fools have sooo big guru, but no understand nothing. Soo big guru... What you do know boy? it is necessary to big guru But that you still do know boy? In me the big guru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 But Raga prabhu have qualification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 if they have a big guru (not a fake big guru.. a real one) they are not so fools actually they are the most intelligent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 ***actually they are the most intelligent actually fools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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