Process Theology?

Gauracandra · February 2, 2002

Is anyone familiar with this term? I've read a little bit about it and it certainly is a unique notion of God. Basically as I understand it, God is always in the process of becoming God. It is not that He is incomplete, but that He is continually growing. At the same time God is limited in a fashion by time and space. God is the sum total of everything in the universe, but more than just that. Sort of a synergistic effect where 2+2=5 (the 5 being God, the 2+2 being the parts and parcels of God). I think the idea is that there are all sorts of processes occuring in the world, and on a combined basis all of these processes move forward through time within the universe. The super-accumulation of all of these processes is God. So in this sense there is a unique relationship between God and the rest of the universe. Both are tied one to the other.

I have read that the Mormon God is a God of a form of process theology. He exists in a materially bound state, within space and time, and continually grows and learns. In one sense such a God, is not God in a traditional way. He is more like a highly evolved human - like a Superman.

I might not be explaining it correctly, but if anyone has some insight into this theological view of God I'd be interested.

Gauracandra

leyh · February 3, 2002

God is always in the process of becoming God. It is not that He is incomplete, but that He is continually growing.

I'm not sure whether I remember correctly,butdidn't Srila Prabhupada write somewhere that even Krsna cannot understand Radha and that He has to descend as Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to understand Radha's devotion?

Gauracandra · February 3, 2002

Leyh,

This is partly the line of thinking I was considering. I had heard the idea of process theology before, and there are some parts I would likely disagree with. Still, part of me found it an interesting idea within Gaudiya Vaisnava theology.

For instance, you can talk of Radha and Krsna's love as being supremely complete. But their love is ever increasing. So in one sense God is in a process of continually experiencing higher and higher levels of love with His devotees.

Gauracandra

valaya · February 3, 2002

Originally posted by leyh:

I'm not sure whether I remember correctly,butdidn't Srila Prabhupada write somewhere that even Krsna cannot understand Radha and that He has to descend as Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to understand Radha's devotion?

Krsna responds to Radha's everfresh, always increasing, spontaneous devotion. She is like a bonfire that He cannot contain! Though His desire is to fully reciprocate with all of His devotees, in Her case He simply cannot and is continually forced to admit defeat.

This is especially pleasing to Sri Radha's girlfriends, the Radha-dasi manjaris in particular. They shout, "Jai Radhe! Jai Radhe!" in great exuberation. Actually, it is these same girlfriends that control Radhika by their own single-pointed devotion and the pastimes between Radha and Krsna are in fact constantly evolving according to their desires, Her most intimate parts-and-parcels.

While we are well aware of our constitutional postion to serve the whole as Sri Krsna, we tend to neglect the fact that He Himself is the servant of all. The `interface` for both is in Srimati Radharani. She provides our connection to him, somewhat impersonally as devotional sevice and most personally as Herself in Goloka Vrndavan.

The key to understanding everything is to realize Her, which is possible only by His Divine Grace personified as Sri Guru. Through Her our relationship with Krsna, as well as Her own and ours with Her, are wondrously revealed somehow or other.[/]

Thank you so much for raising this amazing topic, Leyh prabhu. It made me feel shivers!

valaya

------------------

Radhe Radhe always Radhe!

amanpeter@hotmail.com

valaya · February 3, 2002

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Leyh,

This is partly the line of thinking I was considering. I had heard the idea of process theology before, and there are some parts I would likely disagree with. Still, part of me found it an interesting idea within Gaudiya Vaisnava theology.

For instance, you can talk of Radha and Krsna's love as being supremely complete. But their love is ever increasing. So in one sense God is in a process of continually experiencing higher and higher levels of love with His devotees.

Gauracandra

Although we know Krsna as the Supreme Enjoyer, how many can appreciate that His greatest enjoyment lies in serving His devotees. The highest form of service being pure love, His personal relationships in Goloka Vrndavana with family and friends is where this mutual reciprocation reaches the pinnacle of intimacy.

Our God is totally unique in that He longs not to be treated as God, but to see His pure devotees glorified, even at His own expense! How wonderful is that Krsna?

He comes as Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu in the mahabhava mood of Sri Radha, longing to experience Himself through Her and better understand how She enjoys. Is this merely greed for some selfish pleasure? Of course not, selfishness is our consciousness in the material world, not His in the spiritual world.

Krsna wants only to deepen His loving exchange with His most beloved Radhika, and thus all of Her parts-and-parcels...including us, pure or not.

All glories to Gauranga! All glories to Gaurangi! HARIBOL!

valaya

------------------

Radhe Radhe always Radhe!

amanpeter@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-03-2002).]

leyh · February 3, 2002

Taking the part of Radharani, Caitanya tries to love Krsna as Radharani loved Him. Krsna was always amazed by Radharani's love. "How does Radharani give Me such pleasure?" He would ask. In order to study Radharani, Krsna lived in Her role and tried to understand Himself. This is the secret of Lord Caitanya's incarnation. Caitanya is Krsna, but He has taken the mode or role of Radharani to show us how to love Krsna. Thus He is addressed: "I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Lord who is absorbed in Radharani's thoughts." (From Introduction to Teachings of Lord Caitanya By His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

valaya · February 3, 2002

Originally posted by leyh:

Taking the part of Radharani, Caitanya tries to love Krsna as Radharani loved Him. Krsna was always amazed by Radharani's love. "How does Radharani give Me such pleasure?" He would ask. In order to study Radharani, Krsna lived in Her role and tried to understand Himself. This is the secret of Lord Caitanya's incarnation. Caitanya is Krsna, but He has taken the mode or role of Radharani to show us how to love Krsna. Thus He is addressed: "I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Lord who is absorbed in Radharani's thoughts." (From Introduction to Teachings of Lord Caitanya By His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Also from `Teachings of Lord Caitanya` (p.278):

"As no one can understand the expansion of spiritual energy of the Supreme Lord without the causeless mercy of the Supreme Lord, similarly, no one can understand the transcendental sex life between Radha and Krsna without following in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja. There are different names for the associates of Radharani: they are called Sakhis, or personal associates, and also the Manjaris, the near assistants.

It is very difficult to express their dealings with Krsna, as they have no desire to mix with or enjoy Krsna personally. But they are always ready to help Radharani be with Krsna. Their affection for Krsna is so pure that they are simply satisfied when Radha and Krsna are together, and they simply enjoy the transcendental pleasure of seeing Radha and Krsna combined, united."

valaya: Srila Prabhupada reminds us in his first sentence of our need for Krsna's causeless mercy before we can understand the spiritual energy (or internal potency: Sri Radha) and His Divine Grace (Srimati Radharani as Her girlfriends) can then unveil a more intimate understanding of the transcendental sex life between Radha and Krsna. This will automatically free us from attachment to our own mundane sex lives, both gross and subtle. Another way to put it is "From God we get guru, then guru gives us God." From God to a more personal intimate relationship with God through Sri Guru.

Since Lord Caitanya appears in the mood of Sri Radha, His closest associates are responsible for deepening that mood. The sakhis (girlfriends) and manjaris (youngest girlfriend maidservants) therefore appear with Him.

Radha-dasi manjaris are highly unique and access to this most intimate of relationships is very rare indeed. First Mahaprabhu Himself must appear, for no other avatar will do, and also the parampara must be manjaris themselves, at least for the most part, siksha and/or diksha.

Although Prabhupada has said here that it is `very difficult to express their dealings with Krsna`, some has been previously written and much has been revealed since, for those with the necessary raganuga `greed` who are driven to enter into these amazingly intimate personal relationships with the Supreme Absolute.

In fact, the purity of the manjari is respected by Krsna as the highest possible attainment. Their desire to see only Radhika Herself enjoying with Him transcends all the usual relationships with Krsna, and though they are maidservants of Radharani, they're situated in the highest madhurya lila.

Manjaris as many may know are the small flower buds, while Radha is the creeper embracing Krsna and Her sakhis the leaves of that creeper. Those tiny budding flowers are the most precious and exquisitely beautiful. Their focus is solely on `love for the sake of love`, accepting nothing (including Krsna!) in return. Indeed, their service within Sri Krsna-Caitanya's sankirtan movement is to fulfill Her mood of unconditional unlimited love by delivering Him to everyone, without consideration of qualification or disqualification, while considering themselves the most fallen and least worthy of all.

This, of course, is what Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami did and wishes to continue to do through all of us. Realizing the teachings he gave in a deeper more meaningful way will help us to further realize our own uniquely wonderful position and thus inspire us to fulfill our personal part in His most magnanimous mission to drown this entire planet in pure love of God.

valaya

------------------

Radhe Radhe always Radhe!

amanpeter@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-03-2002).]

clare · February 3, 2002

I was reading this recently in a book by Jeffrey Armstrong. He speaks of the 5 elements of matter and the processes that affect the matter.

"Inside the material realm, God rules through these 3 processes....

In the religion of the Vedas they are personified as BRAHMA the creator, VISHNU the maintainer, and SHIVA the destroyer........

3 aspects of the 1 Supreme Being who is manifest in the past, present and future of material nature."

And how these can be related to , goodness, passion and ignorance.Sattva, Raja, Tamas. Sustaining , creating, destructing. Even to the 3 primary colours yellow, red and blue.

Gauracandra · February 3, 2002

Process theology has been used by some to explain the creation of Christianity. Essentially the view is that Jesus became divine by perfectly aligning his life with the will of God. It was a form of complete self-actualization, where one moves beyond the needs (say Maslow's heirarchy of needs) and fully realize one's potential. He gave himself completely to God, and as such this led to his deification by his disciples. His death then spurred forward his disciples to remake the world according to his teachings.

The first time I heard of process theology was in connection to Mormonism. Joseph Smith's most famous speach, called the King Follet's discourse, lays out his views of the nature of God. Again, its a very different view of God than most people accept. I have the King Follet speach in hard copy, but I'll see if I can find an electronic copy to post here. Its interesting reading if nothing else.

Gauracandra

Gauracandra · February 3, 2002

I can't seem to find an electronic copy of King Follett's Discourse. Perhaps I'll type up some or all of it later. Essentially Mormon's believe that man can become a god, by living a life according to certain tenets. I personally don't have a problem with this since in we accept that a person who lives a pious life can attain various levels of (demi)godhood.

There are a few verses they use to support this doctrine such as:

Psalms 82:6

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

and

John 10:30-36

"I and my Father are one.

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because of that thou, being a man, maketh thyself a God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Gauracandra · February 4, 2002

I couldn't find an electronic copy of King Follett's Discourse. I've started another posting here: http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001084.html

where I'll type it out. Its interesting reading as it gives an understanding of the Mormon view of God, which differs greatly from mainstream Christianity.

Gauracandra

[This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 02-04-2002).]

Val_Baital · February 7, 2002

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Is anyone familiar with this term? I've read a little bit about it and it certainly is a unique notion of God. Basically as I understand it, God is always in the process of becoming God. It is not that He is incomplete, but that He is continually growing. At the same time God is limited in a fashion by time and space. God is the sum total of everything in the universe, but more than just that. Sort of a synergistic effect where 2+2=5 (the 5 being God, the 2+2 being the parts and parcels of God). I think the idea is that there are all sorts of processes occuring in the world, and on a combined basis all of these processes move forward through time within the universe. The super-accumulation of all of these processes is God. So in this sense there is a unique relationship between God and the rest of the universe. Both are tied one to the other.

I have read that the Mormon God is a God of a form of process theology. He exists in a materially bound state, within space and time, and continually grows and learns. In one sense such a God, is not God in a traditional way. He is more like a highly evolved human - like a Superman.

I might not be explaining it correctly, but if anyone has some insight into this theological view of God I'd be interested.

Gauracandra

What you're describing isn't really theology (doctrine of creation, God as seperate from his creation which is the Universe and it's beings) but a form of deism (emanation doctrine). The belief you describe is the belief held by the Church of Religious Science; that God is the ALL, and since the ALL is the sum of it's parts, God is continuously becoming, experiencing and dying, ad infinitum. I guess you could think of "God" as the consciousness generated by an infinite number of brains, each acting as single neurons in the larger brain of the life collective.

The Mormons come close to this, but they still consider God to be a personal being seperate from his creation, and therefore have a doctrine of theology. Theology allows for moral prohibitions, which they are quite fond of. Deism is amoral, prefering survival ethics as a basis for compassion and cooperation. Deism is also the basic doctrine of Traditional Satanism. Theism is Right Hand Path, and Deism is generally considered Left Hand Path. Unlike theism, deism allows for a belief in personal godhood, ghosts as immortal spiritual beings, Vampires as superhuman evolution, etc.

When you say Process theology, are you refering to process in general, or the theology of the Process church?