Thats a good question. "Beside the point" perhaps

[Janus 0]

Are the Ritviks Trying to Christianize ISKCON?

By Padyavali dasi

 

I refer to the article by Gaurasundara dasa—"The Christians are Ritviks"—on VNN,

April 13, 1999. In this article Gaurasundara states:

 

"Is the Christian religion a bad misleading concoction? Should we label them

ritivks, a name that should leave a bad taste in our mouths?

 

Well, I don’t know about whether the word rtvik should leave a bad taste in our mouths, but the authors question is a good one, and one that I have been expecting for a long, long time. Hard Rtvikism which seeks to hold Srila Prabhupada up as last achrya and pure devotee is most certainly a copy cat crime, very much similar to that performed by Paul when he created Christianity. Pauls crime was not however the creation of a religion that accepted God-Men and inner or other-world mediation, but the creation of the appearance that there was a continuity between Judaism and Christianity and the misinterpretation of Jesus and his mission. We can get into that later if this thread survives the next few weeks. After I posted the following it lasted just one day on another BB forum before it and myself were both removed for what may be assumed to be crimes far worse than crimes against humanity in the estimate of some. This expectation of mine is that that the words of the acharyas can stand up to close scrutiny as whether or not it may be apparent at the time (and at the time may seem quite the opposite) that they are founded, and furthermore that they communicate the absolute truth.

The original thread was started by someone else posting a reply to some person named Gaurasundara dasa’s article. That person was a woman that I served with for a time when I was in the movement some 25 years ago, and as I am quite sentimental about, and attached to my old friends I was looking forward to reading her rely to Gaurasundaras article and offering her any positive feedback that I could to it. I got sidetracked from the question as to whether Rtviks were a Christian type of tradition however due to some points of consideration that Padyavali’s selection of Srila Prabhupdas talks which seemed to me both to make an argument against her own point that she was trying to make, that Rtvikism is unauthorized according to Srila Prabhupada, and to raise the even more important types of questions as I referred to above. Padyavali concludes that Rtviks are all reprobates, that they eat their own snot or some other similar disgusting practices such as illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication, gambling etc., which I personally find just as hard to believe as the counter accusation made by some Rtviks that all Iskcon gurus are also reprobates and engage in the exact same or similar practices. She chose for her “evidence” a parcticular morning lecture given by Srila Prabhupada which did not in fact abrogate Christianity’s validity as a path to perfection, but which affirmed it as such, only decrying it’s leadership as all being hypocrites. I quote Padyavali:

 

Gaurasundara goes on to put down our devotees and leaders in ISKCON as not

following Srila Prabhupada while stating that the ministers of the Christian

church are the authorized representatives of Lord Jesus because they follow the

teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

I would like all of you, our readers, to examine carefully the position Srila

Prabhupada takes in regard to the Christians and how they follow Christ's

teachings while the (not so subtle) insinuation in comparing ISKCON to

Christianity is that ISKCON's system is flawed and does not work so why not

change to a system that does.

 

I will add my own remarks after Srila Prabhupada's conversation. Please read

carefully as the future of each of us in our movement may depend on our

understanding the differences between ISKCON and Christianity clearly.

 

The Pseudo Christians (from "Srila Prabhupada Speaks Out" BTG Vol.20 # 10—a

conversation between Srila Prabhupada and some of his disciples during a morning

walk in Geneva, June 6, 1974)

 

Srila Prabhupada: Meat-eating is the main barrier to understanding God. The

meat-eaters will never be able to understand Him.

 

Disciple: The priest you were talking with last night was a good example. He

said to you, "Let us go to higher topics. We've been talking so long about meat

eating."

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Disciple: You said, "Well, if you are sinful, it is useless to go onto a higher

topic."

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. This very fact is stressed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam

(10.1.4): "Everyone can understand the Supreme Truth, except the rascals who are

meat eaters. Vina Pasughnat; except those who eat meat. Vina means "except,"

pasu means "animals" and ghnat means "a killer".

 

And so Lord Jesus Christ re-affirmed the Biblical commandment "Thou shalt not

kill".

 

You see these so called followers of Jesus Christ were killers from the very

beginning. And despite the order of Christ, still they are killing to this day.

 

Srila Prabhupadas argument is based upon his consideration that the Commandment “Thou shalt not kill” encompasses not only human beings, but that it also pertains to animals, most expressly to the killing of animals in order to eat them by human beings, and he goes on to condemn Christians as hypocrites for this very practice. Srila Prabhupadas consideration seems to be that Christians must according to the scripture that they accept be all vegetarians or be accounted as hypocrites for not obeying Gods and Christs commandments not to eat meat.

Since the Torah permits the slaughter and consumption of certain kinds of animals, including bulls and cows for human consuption and since the Torah is considered to be God’s Law by the Isrealites or Hebrews of that period, and since nowhere has it been found that Jesus countermanded the instructions of the Torah, as is evident by Gamalials defense of Christs followers and their absolution from guilt before the Sanhedren which would not have been the case had they declared the Torah nullified, Srila Prabhupadas argument cannot be accounted as producing conclusive evidence to back up his claim that all Christian priests and ministers are:

 

These priests and ministers—all of them are hypocritical..

 

For Srila Prabhupadas claim does not seem to be in accordance with the truth, which is, as mentioned above that the Hebrew Bible and the God of the Hebrew Bible Himself, not only allowed but COMMANDED his people to eat meat.

 

But vina pasu-ghnat, whatever seemingly pious things they may do, those who are

animal killers, meat-eaters, can never understand God. It is simply not

possible.

 

Now that is the key.

 

But since it is unclear as to what extent anyone of the Hebrew faith or of Christendom through their faith can ever understand God through following their traditions and their traditions permissive attitudes towards the eating of various animals, the question must be whether anyone who is Christian or Jewish can understand God at all. Srila Prabhupada says that they cannot. Since throughout the histories of both these traditions there have been various adherents of them who have claimed some tangible spiritual experience of the Deity to accept Srila Prabhupadas claim is to consider that all of these men and women were either liars or that they were delusional.

 

These "pseudo religious" people think, "We are doing very good work, godly work.

We are opening hospitals, building highways, feeding the hungry, and so on. So,

what is the difference if we maintain the slaughterhouses and kill fifteen

million animals a day? Of course, for some reason that we don't understand,

every now and then we end up in ghastly wars wherein we slaughter ourselves and

others. But we are happy."

 

These "pseudo religious" people

 

It is quite clear here that Srila Prabhupada considers Christianity “As It Is” TO BE A PSEUDO, or concocted religion. It doesn’t stop there however, but encompasses the followers of the Hebrew faith as well and must also account for Islam, since they all accept the Old Testament and the words claimed to be spoken in it by God as Gods words. Elsewhere Srila Prabhupada has made the claim that the Bible is not transcendental. He has accepted that they may be inspired by God, but it is pretty much evident that he considers the words of God as enunciated in the Bible giving the authority to raise animals and to slaughter them for human consumption to be concocted.

 

These pseudo-religionists also pride themselves on their huge buildings, their

big skyscrapers and big factories. But all of this is duskriti industrious

rascaldom because it is meant for committing sinful activities, that's all.

 

"Yes," they will say. "We are only after wine, women, gambling and

meat-eating—but we are civilized."

 

I found this confrontational “in your face” denunciation of all Christians and Hebrew priests and ministers as “pseudo-religionists” only in intoxication, sex, cheating and gluttony discrediting of the presenter, and his claim made later on that ALL Christian Priests and ministers are hypocrites really set me off, just as much as Srila Narayana Maharajas claim that all Rtviks are poison and the Rtviks claims that all Iskcon gurus are rascals. Being angry makes my mind work, or perhaps not.

 

Disciple: Recently one of your disciples visited Butler, Pennsylvania. While he

was there he met a priest who said, "Oh, yes. I remember your spiritual master.

In 1965, he was here. He'd just come form India, and he was giving lectures in

our church."

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Upon arriving in America, I gave lectures in churches.

And what is a church? A church is a place where there are God-conscious persons.

 

Here Srila Prabhupada seems to be contradicting himself. He had just said that meat eaters could not know God, but unless one is imagining that the congregations of these various churches were distinct from their ministry in that they were all vegetarians then we must presume that these “God conscious” people were also inclined towards the same dietary habits practiced by their churches ministry. Thus they were both meat-eaters but they were also conscious of God.

 

Consciousness of something infers some knowledge of the thing that one is conscious of. It does not however presume a comprehensive understanding but only a relative one. Still Srila Prabhupada seems to be contradicting himself, saying that meat eaters are also God conscious, or knowers of God after he has already said that meat eaters couldn’t be God conscious.

 

So I never criticized a church or mosque. Never. Because whatever the group may

be, the main thing is they are God conscious—and so they are good. But when they

disobey the Lord's commandments, then I must criticize.

 

God conscious meat eaters who are obeying the laws of their religious faiths as enunciated by God in the pages of the Bible which permit them to eat meat and yet Srila Prabhupada is going ahead and criticizing them.

 

Still, I criticize only these rascals: those who set the pattern, those who

disobey the commandments out of sheer stubbornness. Otherwise we have no

criticism of them. We have no problem. “

 

“The” commandments? Here it is seeming that Srila Prabhupada if referring to “The Ten Commandments” of which the Commandment “Thou shalt not kill” is beneath in sequence and order of importance the second and third Commandment which prohibit the making of images and the worship of them. Irregardless of any explanations to the contrary, educated Christians reading this morning lecture by Srila Prabhupada, and who recognize that we do both make and worship images of things that are in heaven, view this practice as idolatry, and have no choice but to see that Srila Prabhupada is doubly guilty of hypocracy, first for pretending that he accepts the Ten Commandments as Gods Laws, when it is obvious that he doesn’t by his violation of the second and third Commandments (at least), and second by his inept attempt at the usages of words jugglery in an attempt to turn Christian congregations against their ministers and priests by claiming that they do not follow the Ten Commandments when he doesn’t either.

 

Padyavali expected her argument to explain Srila Prabhupadas views and understanding of Christianity to our discernment. I am not hopelessly confused, already I have been able to figure out a few things, but some of the things that I have “realized” preclude the acceptance of this particular talk by Srila Prabhupada as any weight of evidence against either the Rtviks or the Christians as being concocted religions due to the seeming contradictions made is Srila Prabhupadas statements, including this:

 

So many people have asked me, "Do you value Christianity?"

"Yes," I say. "If you faithfully follow your Christian religion, you will become

perfect."

 

In this statement Srila Prabhupada is claiming that if one faithfully follows Christianity, a tradition which, like that of the rtviks, accepts a guru that is not physically present as the only mediator needed, that one will become perfect. Padyavalis use of it therefore only goes against her point that Rtvikism and Christianity are concocted.

 

Disciple: So then do Christians still need people to give them spiritual

guidance?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Surely. Their Priests and ministers DO NOT, CANNOT, GUIDE AND

UPLIFT THEM. THE PRIESTS AND MINISTERS ARE THEMSELVES FALLEN. Otherwise, the

Christian religion is very nice, IF SIMPLY THE PEOPLE HAVE SPIRITUAL GUIDES TO

HELP THEM TO FOLLOW IT PERFECTLY.

 

Here it appears to me that Srila Prabhupada is presenting the conclusion of his argument, which “simply” speaking is that the whole of Christiandom, Judaism, (and lets throw in Islam since all three admit to a faith in the same God of the Old Testament) should surrender to someone who understands their religion better than they. This can be extended to the Rtviks, to ISKCON, etc., to any religion whose priests and ministers are hypocrites for not following the instructions of spiritual guides who can actually uplift them. Who could they be?

 

Disciple: We are not sectarian.

Srila Prabhupada: Why should we be? God is one.

 

Evidently not if on the one hand the God of the Bible permits animals to be killed and eaten and the God of the Krsna consciousness movement does not, or…The God of the Bible is not God but someone speaking “for” God and attributing his own words to God. We go back at this point to Srila Prabhupadas claim that the Bible isn’t Vedic literature, or eternal transcendental truth, that it may be “inspired” of God but that it is not breathed out by God. Obviously he feels that he has the authority to pick and choose which of the Laws of God pertain to humanity and which do not and how they should be interpreted over and above all of the Christian priesthood and ministry. Is he consciously aware of this?

 

Why should we be sectarian?

Each person, according to his own particular cultural background and circumstances,

is praying to God. That is one of the forms of Bhakti, or devotional service to

God.

 

Disciple: Many of the young people now—they may look to the Bible for

instruction but they stay away from the priests and the ministers. They feel

they are hypocritical.

 

Srila Prabhupada: They are hypocritical. Simply hypocritical. These priests and

ministers—all of them are hypocritical. Getting big fat salaries, drinking wine

and eating killed animals. And when you remind them "Thou shalt not kill" they

say "Let us go on to higher topics."

 

-all of them are hypocritical”

 

This claim by Srila Prabhupada that all Christian priests and ministers are hypocritical seems to fly in the face of Biblical evidence that they are simply following the orders of God which includes eating meat, fish, etc., His portrayal of them as all being all hypocritical rests upon evidence that not only simply isn’t there but which turns around and disproves his consideration that the killing of animals for food is the type of killing that God was referring to in his commandment not to kill. What is obvious is that he is attempting is to eliminate the middlemen of Christianity and to replace them with those who understand God, or who understand God as he does, which includes an understanding that the words and even the Commndments of the God of Judaism and of Christianity are no longer relevant, even assuming if in fact they ever were, and that those in his position are factually free to do in effect what Thomas Jefferson used to do to the Bible with a pen knife, which was to excise or cut out any words that his conscience could not attribute to God.

Still to most Christians who are familiar with their Bible it appears that Srila Prabhupada wasn't. To devotees who do not consider that the Pure Devotee of Krsna can be guilty of making assumptions it still seems (upon familiarizing oneself with the Bible) that Srila Prabhupada is not basing his arguements upon the Bible as Shastra, but upon some higher authority (he sites the Vedas rather than the Bible specifically) that allows him authority over even the Bible itself and thus to the Christians, Jews and Moslems over even God's own words, over God himself. That is bad enough in their eyes, but that is not "worse". What is worse is his appearance of a lack of integrity, or of a simple foolishness. If Srila Prabhupada was conversant with the Bible then he was aware that the Bible permitted eating meat, and if he was not then ...

Sorry folks but I still have a problem with "Asvatama is dead...that elephant" and I know for a fact that there are Christian Priests and ministers who are sincere and devout. Implying that ALL are addicted to intoxication, sex, etc., or that none of them are sincere burns me up, so much so that I am not really interested into reconciling the apparent contradictions and establishing a validity to Srila Prabhupadas disciples claims that he is a divine authority. Unfortunately I have my own personal experiences which have demonstrated to me that Srila Prabhupada was an ocean of mercy, for he elevated me to the plane of transcendence at which occaision I had the direct experience of eternity, of my own immortality and at that time could see clearly. That and my own conditioning doesn't leave me much choice. All my ducks must be in line.

Hari bol

 

[This message has been edited by Janus (edited 11-05-2001).]