What's wrong with homosexualtiy?

[Maitreya 0]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

 

 

No one is advocating creating a new religion or some grand deviation. Some saw Srila Prabhupada's innovations that way, but obviously they were grossly mistaken. He came to America and he adjusted things accordingly so that the environment would be conducive to spiritual advancement. He certainly took into consideration the time, place and circumstance. These three things are in constant flux and there will forever be the need for the divine preceptor to present the teachings accordingly so that advancement in Krsna consciousness is assured.

 

 

Audarya-lila prabhu,

 

No one disagrees on the general statement you have made concerning adjustments due to time place and circumstance.

 

There are however many who consider homosex marriage,sanctioned relationships, what ever you want to call them as grand deviations.

 

From his conversations we know that Srila Prabhupada was of this opinion.

 

We must be on guard here as the fertile and passionate nature of the western mind is every want to 'improve'[change]things, even those which are fine as there are.

 

Remember the example of the men in a tree carefully handing the ripe mango from the top to the bottom without bruising it.

 

That is how the Hare Krishna movement must be handled and passed on.

 

My respects to you,

Haribol

 

 

[Audarya lila 0]

Maitreya,

 

My respects to you as well. Agreed, we must tread the path carefully and thoughtfully and not all adjustments that may seem useful should be made. It is the duty of the acharya to make the appropriate adjustments. We are in the conditioned state, so how are we to judge? Even very advanced vaishnava's looked on some of the innovations that Srila Prabhupada made as deviations. We must pray for proper discretion and we must cry out for good company and the association of one or many that can help us with proper spiritual discretion.

 

This is not an easy topic. We are certainly not incorrect to say 'follow what the acarya has said without change'. That is a good statement and to be followed for sure. Then, there is the statement of the acarya himself that some aspects of the teaching and the way it is presented are subject to change based on time, place and circumstancial considerations. We must be cautious and know our own adhikara and level of advancement. We must also know that there are those that are more advanced than us and pray for their association and advice so that we will not be fooled into thinking that whatever our minds tell us is correct.

 

Through humble service and the good company of advanced Vaishnava's we will one day ourselves be expected to push forward this movement and make the proper adjustments necessary to reach that goal. Until that time let us all be humble and sincere and pray that Krsna give us good association.

 

I don't know of any Gaudiya Vaishnava acharya who is sanctioning gay marriages. I also don't know any Gaudiya Vaishanva acharya who will not encourage all souls to take up Krsna consciousness and make an honest endeavor to improve themselves from wherever they are at. In reality most of us are stuck at the very beginning stages of bhakti still trying to overcome our material attachments. These attachments are not pretty no matter what they are. To some, homosexualty is repulsive which is the flip side of being attached to it. Attraction and aversion. We are after positive progressive spirituality in which we dedicate ourselves in the service of Sri Guru. This is open to all. A true sign of progress is that the practicioner is truly becoming detached from material life. This takes time and dedication. The acharya will see who we really are, not our false identities like, homosexual, heterosexual, scientist, philosopher, handsome, ugly, witty, dull - whatever. The guru sees our true prospect. Sridhara Maharaja gave the analogy that our material attachments that seem so insurmountable to us are really like mushrooms without any roots - no firm ground - they will be cleared in a short time. I really don't see why devotees have such a hard time with the idea that everyone is eligible. In fact, seeing as how many have expressed the idea that homosexuals are such sinners and the lowest etc. - we might conclude that they are most eligible for Lord Chaitanya's mercy.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[BDas 0]

Maitreya wrote, There are however many who consider homosex marriage,sanctioned relationships, what ever you want to call them as grand deviations.

 

Reply: And there were and are many who consider Americans as third or fourth class devotees who have villified Vaisnavism with fallen sanyassis, divorce and remarriage or boys and girls living and dancing together in the temples etc.

 

These are all relitive considerations that do not address the essence of Vaisnavism.

 

Bhaktivinode advised us to become essence seekers who could adjust the spirit of Mahaprabhus teachings in such a way that we would be able to introduce its practice into any culture.

 

There is no material impediment to the culture of Bhakti. Bhakti is all-auspicious and can be introduced in some way or another into any culture.

 

Sadhu-sanga has great potential and it is the duty of all followers of Maharabhu to find the ways and means to introduce sadhu- sanga and the culture of Bhakti to those in need.

 

It is by sadhu sanga and the culture of Bhakti that the sinful are gradually delivered. And everyone in kali yuga is sinful not just homosexuals.

 

There are so many cultures from left wing homosexual and feminist to right wing WASP and neo-Nazi. None of these cultures are better than the other unless they are opened to the idea of sadhu sanga and Bhakti.

 

Prabhupad even considered hippy culture from one angle better because hippies were "our best customers". And the "other fools will never change".

 

It means little if a person is "proper" in every respect but cares not for sadhu sanga and has no bhakti. But if a person has bhakti other faults are to be overlooked.

 

Api cet sudaracharo, Hare Krishna, BDas

 

 

[BDas 0]

Dear Tarun,

 

I just wanted to say "ditto" to your post above about fellowship and overlooking differences.

 

Best wishes and Hare Krishna, Brahma

[Maitreya 0]

 

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Maitreya,

I don't know of any Gaudiya Vaishnava acharya who is sanctioning gay marriages.

 

And let us hope and pray they never do, but someone having undergone formal initiation and who posseses some speaking ability and has shastra memorized is likely to try it.Profit adoration and distiction

 

These attachments are not pretty no matter what they are. To some, homosexualty is repulsive which is the flip side of being attached to it. Attraction and aversion.

 

Srila Prabhupada is transcendental to attraction and aversion.He spoke against it.He labled it as demonic.

 

I really don't see why devotees have such a hard time with the idea that everyone is eligible.

 

I don't see why some are accussing others of holding that view.Who said they aren't eligible?

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

[Maitreya 0]

BDas,

 

Since you have stated you might agree to homosex marriages, could you please explain why you think that would a furtherance to the spreading of Lord Caitanya's mercy?

 

Since we have ALL agreed from the BEGINNING that no qaulifications are required to take up the practice, what gain do you envision that could come by homosex marriages?

 

Hare Krishna

[BDas 0]

 

Hare Krishna, Bdas

 

Dear Maitreya, Thanks for the good question!

 

You asked: Since you have stated you might agree to homosexual marriages, could you please explain why you think that would be a furtherance to the spreading of Lord Caitanya's mercy?

Since we have ALL agreed from the BEGINNING that no qualifications are required to take up the practice, what gain do you envision that could come by homosexual marriages?

 

Reply: My answer has to do with consideration of the present unique Gay culture of SF.

 

This is a city with the largest Gay population in the world. It is the Gay Mecca where homosexuals come to live in the open. Where once a year the Mayor of the city performs a mass marriage type ceremony at city hall for up to 500 Gay couples.

And where homosexual couples are accepted and even wield political power.

 

If we are to introduce KC on a mass scale to any culture we have to do so in consideration of the cultural norms of the people we are dealing with. In SF homosexuality and gay marriage are already accepted as the norm. To go against this norm in SF would doom the acceptance of KC on any significant scale in the Gay community.

 

Divorce and remarriage is a cultural norm in the west. Prabhupad at first said no divorce in Iskcon. But when he saw that the devotees could not follow this stricture he modified his position. To do otherwise would have driven many sincere devotees away from KC.

Now divorce is hardly an issue and many devotees get remarried at the temple in front of the Deities.

 

In a city like SF to make a religious edict that Gay devotees could not live together as a couple would have the same effect as telling straight devotees they could not get divorced. This law simply would not be followed and would only serve to drive potential Gay devotees away from the teachings of Mahaprabhu.

 

The essence of Krishna bhakti is not about sexual preferences. It is about the development of love of God. To attain higher stages of realization one has to give up sense gratification and bring forth-intense devotion from within. Most often it is a gradual process beginning with faith and sadhu sanga. The introduction of sadhu-sanga into the culture is paramount and a higher consideration than assaulting the social norm with rules no one will follow anyway.

 

The idea is to first introduce sadhu-sanga in a culturally acceptable way. And those devotees who grasp the essence of bhakti will proceed from there. Hare Krishna, Brahma

 

[amanpeter 0]

Does anyone recollect Prabhupada encouraging us to dovetail our emotions towards Radha-Krsna and away from mundane relationships, such as family? Or how about telling us that we have no friends in this world? Didn't he say that sex, gross and subtle, is what binds us to material conciousness?

 

Guess we all have our own ways to rationalize personal attachments, still I'd appreciate further clarification of these points, prabhus. Thank you. valaya

 

------------------

amanpeter@hotmail.com

[Maitreya 0]

Brahma,

 

Yes that would succeed in pleasing the homos in SF.But would it please Krishna and His devotees that have spoken so strongly against homo marriages?NO!No need to becpme all things to all people.

 

One doesn't need to be married to chant, so where is the gain?I see none.Let them chant as they are, no problem.

 

I live in Berkeley so I know what is going on in SF.It is disgusting.gay pride week and the filthy gay parade.Why do we need to bend over for them?I won't.

 

Your willingness to compromise on this issue in opposition to Srila Prabhupada's clear statements on the matter are frightening brother.

 

And while calculating this thing have you considered how many you might alienate when it became known that the Hare Krishna's were now recognizing homo marriages?

 

Best we don't change anything.

 

Hare Krishna,

MC

 

 

 

[amanpeter 0]

Condescension and patronizing will never satisfy, nor will the pretense of normalcy, particularly when differences are considered a source of pride. Political representation is one thing, but I don't think anyone would want to enter into a `gay` partnership just so their program might become more acceptable.

 

The best thing we can possibly do for anyone is to be truthful and that begins with telling them that they are not their body, along with all that entails. Deception and duplicity in the name of spreading Lord Caitanya's movement is what got ISKCON in such a mess to begin with. Or am I wrong, prabhus? valaya

[JRdd 0]

Now that is well said, Valaya. Now to this I would like to add or respond:

 

Originally posted by amanpeter:

Does anyone recollect Prabhupada encouraging us to dovetail our emotions towards Radha-Krsna and away from mundane relationships, such as family? Or how about telling us that we have no friends in this world? Didn't he say that sex, gross and subtle, is what binds us to material conciousness?

Yes and the key words are mundane relationships, and friends in this world, etc. What devotees often miss in this neti neti thing is the replacement of that, which is SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIPS, and TRUE FRIENDS (those who remind each other of their true constituional spiritual positions). It seems insane to me that so many walk around in fear rather than take the best associations they can have, the best friendships--heck even the best marriages could have happened if not for this impersonalistic neti neti consciousness--such opportunities we have for advancing, for becoming excited and enlivened in the process of devotional service--by deepening our God-relationships. Why do so many seem to prefer skirting aroudn the edges, neither in this mundane world of relationships, nor in the devotee world of relationships. Seems like the razor's edge to me. And one could fall either way. We have simply GOT to understand the importance and true meaning of what it is to associate. I know some here will understand what I am saying--Mr das for one.

 

Guess we all have our own ways to rationalize personal attachments, still I'd appreciate further clarification of these points, prabhus. Thank you. valaya

Personal attachments, yes. What gets me is that the attachments are to mundane activities including the people who bring these mundane things to us, and not to the devotees. Attachments to devotees, who are serious and sincere, are far more auspicious, and much less risky of binding one to this world. Yes, it seems insane to me, the choices some of us make sometimes.

 

thanks,

Jayaradhe dasi

 

edited for typos

 

 

[This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-10-2001).]

[JRdd 0]

Dear Brahma prabhu,

 

I am as I have said before of course open to anybody chanting Hare Krsna, as Maitreya has also said. However, I must agree with these points Maitreya makes as:

 

Brahma,

 

Yes that would succeed in pleasing the homos in SF.But would it please Krishna and His devotees that have spoken so strongly against homo marriages?NO!No need to become all things to all people.

 

And may I add that as I read your post about this Brahma, I was also thinking of the relatively minimal numbers as compared to those who would be discouraged by the watering down? Besides, I do not see why the gay thing even needs to be brought up, generally speaking, unless someone is flaunting sexuality in the temple or among the devotees in sangha. We have always attracted and kept gay devotees, why not now? Why make up some big thing to present to them about how their sexuality is Im okay youre okay? The spiritual practices cover the behaviour of all devotees, and no one needs to seek justification for some weakness from the other devotees. I do not ask you to help me come to terms with my choice of music. It is something I desire to be purified as I leave the modes more and more.

 

One doesn't need to be married to chant, so where is the gain?I see none.Let them chant as they are, no problem.

 

Yes, no one is stopping them. To not draw the line here is to open the doors to other watering down ways, and we have had and do have enough of that as it is, without even making the extraneous efforts to.

 

I live in Berkeley so I know what is going on in SF.It is disgusting.gay pride week and the filthy gay parade.Why do we need to bend over for them?I won't.

 

And that's the thing too: pride. In their quest to be liberated, just as the women also fought for due to their being denigrated, they go the other extreme and actually become proud--the opposite quality of a devotee, which is to become humble. Your proposals, Brahma prabhu, will simply enable or encourage this pride.

 

Your willingness to compromise on this issue in opposition to Srila Prabhupada's clear statements on the matter are frightening brother

 

And while calculating this thing have you considered how many you might alienate when it became known that the Hare Krishna's were now recognizing homo marriages?

 

Best we don't change anything.

 

Hare Krishna,

MC

 

ys, Jayaradhe dasi

 

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

The acarya knows how to adjust things...

And the empowered acharya, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has directly instructed his disciples, "Do not change anything.", "If you change, you lose your authority," etc.

 

This is Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions on this matter. Those claiming to follow him should simply follow him: sarvam etad ritam manye, "I accept everything you have said as truth."

 

Those who deviate and change, such as Kirtananda, were bogus, as they were not empowered by Lord Krishna to change things. They fell down, and their disciples suffered the reactions of following an imposter.

 

At the time such deviations were justified on the grounds that he was an "acharya", "empowered by Krishna", "pure devotee", etc., and even some "senior gaudiya acharyas" certified them as such. Today we all know what was his actual position, he was a child-molester, a homosexual, a murderer, etc.

 

Srila Prabhupada said "do not change anything". We should simply adhere to his direct orders to us.

 

If Srila Prabhupada thought homosexual marriages would help people take to Krishna consciousness, he could have told us. But on the contrary he said, "Stop this immediately, you will not be able to advance in such a situation." The acharya has told us that homosexual marriages do not bring people to the feet of Mahaprabhu, they cause such people to fall away from him.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

This is a city with the largest Gay population in the world. It is the Gay Mecca where homosexuals come to live in the open. Where once a year the Mayor of the city performs a mass marriage type ceremony at city hall for up to 500 Gay couples.

And where homosexual couples are accepted and even wield political power.

And in Texas the culture is based on killing cows and having barbeques. If we tell people that killing cows is sinful, it will stop people from taking to Lord Chaitanya's movement. Maybe some would suggest changing Srila Prabhupada's teachings to allow for cow slaughter and barbques at the Sunday love feast.

 

We do not need to change our acharya's principles to suit the degrardation of Kali yuga. If we simply follow and do not change, this Krishna consciousness movement will be successful and will expand more and more. That was what Srila Prabhupada said on several occassions.

 

Divorce and remarriage is a cultural norm in the west. Prabhupad at first said no divorce in Iskcon. But when he saw that the devotees could not follow this stricture he modified his position.

Srila Prabhupada was always against divorce. When "disciples" would not obey him, he simply told them, "do as you wish".

 

The essence of Krishna bhakti is not about sexual preferences. It is about the development of love of God.

And the first step is given as:

 

adau gurvashraya

 

"In the very beginning take shelter of a guru."

 

We should take shelter of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, and not alter them to suit our preferences.

 

The idea is to first introduce sadhu-sanga in a culturally acceptable way.

That was never Srila Prabhupada's method. He introduced something that was completely against the culture of America in the 1960's and 1970's. He told the hippies to stop taking drugs, stop illicit sex, to stop meat eating! He did not adjust it to suit the culture of the degraded west. He introduced the chanting of Lord Krishna's name in the streets, something which certainly didn't fit in with the western society - so much so that the police would often arrest the devotees.

[JRdd 0]

Yes and I think this was one of the valuable lessons we learned from that history, and which is our wisdom and duty to pass on to others, any among us who become confused. We do not wish for such pain and tragedy to continue. Best to stay away from even the slightest most harmless-seeming betrayal of the purity which will carry us onward toward our real Home.

 

thanks, Jayaradhe dasi

 

 

[Maitreya 0]

JRDD said:

Yes, no one is stopping them. To not draw the line here is to open the doors to other watering down ways, and we have had and do have enough of that as it is, without even making the extraneous efforts to.

Yes,JRdd makes a point here that hasn't been expressed.The line must be drawn and kept.Big change here couple little changes there and it won't be recognizable as Lord Caitanyas movement.

 

Keep the standard consciously and clearly just where Srila Prabhupada set it.

 

I haven't lived up to it for any prolonged periods of time.But just knowing where it is has given me a meauring tool that has been very valuable in my own inner work.I don't want the ideals to come to me, I must go to them and accept them on their terms.

 

Until then well at least I'm getting some sukrti banked.

 

My impression is that BDas hasn't given himself %100 to the idea either but is just exploring.I hope I am right in that.

 

Hare Krishna

MC

[JRdd 0]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Keep the standard consciously and clearly just where Srila Prabhupada set it.

 

I haven't lived up to it for any prolonged periods of time.But just knowing where it is has given me a meauring tool that has been very valuable in my own inner work.I don't want the ideals to come to me, I must go to them and accept them on their terms.

Hare Krishna

MC

Right on. Proving that honesty (as opposed to watering down) is the best policy!

 

ys, JR

 

 

[karthik_v 0]

Dear Audarya lila:

 

Here are my responses to your points.

 

Audreya stated:

 

Jndas, you said on the other thread that you feel it is only the samshtapaka-acharya who can make adjustments to teachings according to time, place and circumstance. Can you provide any sastric evidence for such a statement? You have said that the acharya must follow and has no ability to make adjustments - otherwise he is a pretender. Again, I ask you where is the sastric evidence supporting this statement.

My answer:

In BG Lord Krishna tells Arjuna that he had spoken the same words of BG many times before..he spoke them to Vivaswan millions of years ago. Now he is speaking the same words to Arjuna.

 

That answers your point. Krishna didn't change the words to suit the time, place and circumstance. That is because the vedic teachings emanate from Krishna and are eternal. So, an acarya doesn't change the teachings either. He simply repeats them.

 

Audreya wrote:

Acharya means to teach by example. If the acharya is not competent to make adjustments according to time, place and circumstance what is the meaning to his teaching or of his functioning as a teacher? If he is not competent to make adjustments, he certainly is no teacher. I'll give you a mundane example. I am a biochemist and I have occasion to train others in such things as protein purification. I don't teach others based on the 'exact' methods I was first taught. I teach based on principles which must be applied to changing technology and advances in science.

My answer:

You are speculating as to the qualities of an acarya. As for you example for bio-chemistry thanks for admitting that you are teaching mundane science. Such a teaching is ephemeral and has to be adjusted to the changing times. But, spiritual science is transcendental to time and is eternal. So, it has to be presented as it is.

 

Audreya wrote:

The spiritual master teaches spiritual principles and is an expert at applying these principles according to time, place and circumstance. There will always be a need for advanced devotees to apply the principles according to changing times and to reinvigorate the tradition and make the teaching relevant to the generation at hand.

My answer:

You are again speculating. Let me give you an anology. If I am obese, a true instructor will ask me to work out at a gym and get back to shape as that is good for me. On the other hand an instructor who suggests that I am 'normal' and I change my lifestyle to suit my obesity is a rascal. Likewise, a true acarya always goes by the teachings of Krishna, even if they seem anachronistic. They seem anachronistic only because we have fallen so much from the spiritual standards. He tells them to get their acts together and get back to the high ideals of vedic teachings. On the other hand a 'guru' who makes amendments to play to the gallery of 'devotees' and justifies their fallen position is to be avoided.

 

Audreya wrote:

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was prepared to serve meat to guests in order to get them to hear the message of Lord Chaitanya.

 

My response:

What proof do you have in support of this?

 

Audreya wrote:

Our vision is limited

My response:

Certainly yours is. But it can improve if you stick to the original teachings of Srila Prabhupad.

 

Regards,

Karthik

 

[kailasa 0]

>This is a city with the largest Gay population in the world. It is the Gay Mecca where homosexuals come to live in the open. Where once a year the Mayor of the city performs a mass marriage type ceremony at city hall for up to 500 Gay couples.

And where homosexual couples are accepted and even wield political power.

In our city and all country 98 % eat meat, 50 % drink vodka what now?

 

>Divorce and remarriage is a cultural norm in the west.

 

It is not necessary to compare divorce and homos. Nevertheless divorce and wedding is life in family.

 

>Now divorce is hardly an issue and many devotees get remarried at the temple in front of the Deities.

 

But for us already a little who undertakes to conduct rite. All sins have an effect and simplly will bury all. On what that the sanction is, but on what that her(it) is not present and in a normal society be can not.

 

>The essence of Krishna bhakti is not about sexual preferences. It is about the development of love of God.

 

Who that can be unable to follow to principles, but it(he) should know that it poorly and in due course to stop it. Dear Brahma das, therefore SP also has told to plot varnasrama, because the similar statements(confirmation) are senseless and there can not be no love to the God, it is simple.................

 

>The idea is to first introduce sadhu-sanga in a culturally acceptable way.

 

It is possible simplly to speak about God, but in what that the moment to tell all "as is". Ma sucaha.

 

> Deception and duplicity in the name of spreading Lord Caitanya's movement is what got ISKCON in such a mess to begin with.

 

"They have become a little detached from mäyä’s love, or lust, and they want Kåñëa’s love, or endless, fully rewarding love, but they have not yet developed to that point, that’s all. We cannot expect that all of a sudden your countrymen, who are addicted to so many bad habits, will give up eating flesh, taking intoxicants, having illicit sex life, and so many other nasty things, and overnight become great, self-realized souls. That is not possible. That is utopian. " SP.

 

Simplly who that has taken advantage of a case to talk about not of confessor ISKCON. Probably it were large large devotee.... and very reasonable.

 

 

 

[karthik_v 0]

Hare Krishna Brahma Das,

 

Your ideas of accomodating the 'social norms' to enhance the reach of KC are amazing. Well, the church tried all that..they turned a deaf ear to divorce, turned a blind eye to homosexuality, turned speechless on abortion as all these were 'social norms'. What is the result? Has it turned the multitudes of westerners into devout Christians?

 

No, my friend. It just eliminated whatever religion was left in their lives.

 

By the way, who told you that KC is a numbers game?

 

Regards,

Karthik

 

------------------

 

[BDas 0]

Dear Maitreya,

 

I said, “If I thought that by performing Gay marriages I could bring the homosexual community to the feet of Mahaprabhu than I would agree to do so.”

 

You then asked a hypothetical question about when or in what situation I would consider allowing Gay marriage in the HK movement.

 

My answer was that I believe in order to introduce KC on a large scale in Gay culture it would be necessary to adjust the presentation to make it acceptable to some issues they considered socially important

 

M: Yes that would succeed in pleasing the homos in SF.But would it please Krishna and His devotees that have spoken so strongly against homo marriages? NO! No need to become all things to all people.

 

BD: Krishna is pleased when people develop love of God. And the KC movement is not a popularity contest it is an effort to spread the chanting of HK and the ideal of Mahaprabhu.

 

M: One doesn't need to be married to chant, so where is the gain? I see none. Let them chant as they are, no problem.

 

BD: There is not a problem if they give their lives to Krishna regardless of present Iskcon policies. The problem arises when those who are attracted to KC are unwilling to consider taking KC seriously simply because of Iskcon’s social policies. And this is true in one way or another for the majority of Prabhupads disciples who are now outside Iskcon

 

M: I live in Berkeley so I know what is going on in SF.It is disgusting. gay pride week and the filthy gay parade. Why do we need to bend over for them? I won't.

 

BD: There are plenty of nasty things going on in the straight community and SP devoted much more time to talking about them. And all your dirty little references to bending over do not impress me.

 

M: Your willingness to compromise on this issue in opposition to Srila Prabhupada's clear statements on the matter are frightening brother.

 

BD: It is because SP was willing to adjust and compromise that I am also willing to do so.

 

I preached for a time in the Middle East.

 

Prabhupad said when preaching to Muslims that we could tell them they could keep their culture, their Koran, and continue to eat meat. Our efforts should be centered on introducing the chanting of HK and from that everything would come.

 

M: And while calculating this thing have you considered how many you might alienate when it became known that the Hare Krishna's were now recognizing homo marriages?

 

BD: YES! And the movement has and will continue to expand as well as split into different groups with various policies.

 

There are already so many camps of Vaisnavas.

 

There are pro and anti Iskcon groups and in Iskcon itself there is Pro GBC, Iskcon reform, and Iskcon ritvik. There are also numerous branches of Gaudiya Math. If a pro gay Vaisnava group like GLAVA is formed than what is the problem. I have not been a member of Iskcon for 20 years but I still consider myself in the KC movement.

 

M: Best we don't change anything.

 

BD: Best we become “essence seekers” as Bhaktivinode advises because adjustment and change is inevitable.

 

And Best wishes as well.

 

Come by for lunch sometime if you live in Berkeley. I am not as bad as some people might think and I'll treat for the lunch. Hare Krishna, Brahma

 

[BDas 0]

JN: The Acharya knows how to adjust things...And the empowered acharya, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has directly instructed his disciples, "Do not change anything.", "If you change, you lose your authority," etc.

 

BD: And did you lose your authority when you decided to sell books on Mayavadi Hinduism as a come on to Krishna Consciousness?

 

Or do you feel you have some leeway in what can be done to find the ways and means to spread KC?

 

JN; If Srila Prabhupada thought homosexual marriages would help people take to Krishna consciousness, he could have told us.

 

BD: That’s a good one! And if Srila Bhaktisiddanta thought that boys and girls should dance in the temple together or that divorce should be accepted he would have stated it in writing, right?

 

JN: The Acharya has told us that homosexual marriages do not bring people to the feet of Mahaprabhu, they cause such people to fall away from him.

 

BD: He also said all marriage is a dark well but in KC there is a concession for it. And if SP came to an American city where up to a million people come every year to celebrate Gay rights than he may have made some concessions to bring some of them into the fold.

 

JN: And in Texas the culture is based on killing cows and having barbecues. If we tell people that killing cows is sinful, it will stop people from taking to Lord Chaitanya's movement. Maybe some would suggest changing Srila Prabhupada's teachings to allow for cow slaughter and barbecues at the Sunday love feast.

 

BD: It is stupid to equate cow killing with a concession for Gay couples. SP said that a devotee could be considered a Vaisnava unless he eats meat. As Gays and gay couples are already considered Vaisnavas and already a fact of life the comparison is not appropriate. A better example is to compare divorce among devotees to concessions for Gay couples. This is much more reasonable than to equate gay unions with a Texas barbecue.

 

JN: We do not need to change our acharyas principles to suit the degradation of Kali Yuga. If we simply follow and do not change, this Krishna consciousness movement will be successful and will expand more and more. That was what Srila Prabhupada said on several occasions.

 

BD: The KC movement is already successful but still continuing adjustment will be necessary in order to make a relative and reasonable presentation of the philosophy. And no change means that we should adhere to the essence of Krishna consciousness.

 

Do you think that women should be required to wear saris and stand in the back of the temple for all time and in all places? This rule as well as divorce and gay couples have nothing to do with the essence of Krishna bhakti.

 

BD: Divorce and remarriage is a cultural norm in the west. Prabhupad at first said no divorce in Iskcon. But when he saw that the devotees could not follow this stricture he modified his position.

 

JN: Srila Prabhupada was always against divorce. When "disciples" would not obey him, he simply told them, "do as you wish".

 

That’s correct and that is my point. This is called a concession.

 

BD: The essence of Krishna bhakti is not about sexual preferences. It is about the development of love of God.

 

JN: And the first step is given as "In the very beginning take shelter of a guru."

 

BD: And later we find out that the diksa guru and siksa gurus are equal and identical manifestations of Krishna. This is the Gaudiya conception of Guru that encourages a plurality of Gurus and continual revelation. The Bangalore and Mysore ritvik camps have another idea.

 

JN: We should take shelter of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, and not alter them to suit our preferences.

 

BD: Fine, and show me again where Prabhupad said we should sell the books of Aurobindo and Yogananda to promote Krishna consciousness.

 

BD: The idea is to first introduce sadhu-sanga in a culturally acceptable way.

 

JN: That was never Srila Prabhupada's method. He introduced something that was completely against the culture of America in the 1960's and 1970's.

 

BD: This is not exactly true. Prabhupad found success by taking his message to hippie culture, a liberal group that was open to alternative lifestyles. These alternative hippies were “our best customers”.

 

JN: He told the hippies to stop taking drugs, stop illicit sex, to stop meat eating!

 

BD: Yes, but it is one thing to tell people to give up illicit sex and quite another to say they can’t have a partner for life. In the modern world committed gay couples are factual realities. How would people have reacted if they were told they had to give up their life partner before they were accepted into the KC movement?

 

And what advice should be given to those already Gay committed couples who are interested in KC?

 

Some people think that advice should be to tell them to give up being gay and dump their partner. In modern SF culture that would be the same as saying “get the hell out of here.”

 

Marriage of any kind is a concession for sense gratification and more often than not is full of illicit sex by scriptural standards. But it is still better than unregulated promiscuity. And if Gay people can be Vaisnavas and find they cannot be celibate better they are in a committed relationship rather than being promiscuous.

 

JN: He did not adjust it to suit the culture of the degraded west.

 

BD: Yes he did. And along with proper adjustments he made many concessions.

 

JN: He introduced the chanting of Lord Krishna's name in the streets, something which certainly didn't fit in with the western society - so much so that the police would often arrest the devotees.

 

BD: Street chanting worked well in the culture of the 60s and early 70s especially in hippie areas where people were looking for alternatives. It did not go over well in the suburbs or in places where the norm was too conservative.

 

And most of the arrests were for selling books. Where were you at the time?

 

Hare Krishna, BDas

 

[amanpeter 0]

JN: Srila Prabhupada was always against divorce. When "disciples" would not obey him, he simply told them, "do as you wish".

 

BD: That’s correct and that is my point. This is called a concession.

No, that is called giving up, as in "What can I do?". What would you expect Srila Prabhupada to say when `disciples` kept pestering him to condone what he'd already said was wrong? Throwing up one's hands should not be taken as throwing in the towel! valaya

[amanpeter 0]

And most of the arrests were for selling books. Where were you at the time?

Hare Krishna, BDas

Mine was for chanting. Of course, if Danavir prabhu hadn't stuck his kartals right in that cop's face immediately after he'd warned us to stop with the "ching! ching! ching!"...

[Maitreya 0]

Brahma das,Thanks for the lunch invite.Some day I would like to take you up on it and be warned, I will come with a BIG appetite.

 

We will not soon agree on this issue.I am not open to change of mind from my side, and if the words of His Divine Grace are not enough then anything from me will have no effect.

 

One thing though is SF was a homo mecca while His Divine Grace was present, which was not that long ago.

 

Would you have felt comfortable introducing this idea face to face to His Divine Grace?How do you think he would have reacted?

 

Hare Krishna,

MC