Prema bhakti in the upanishads

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Regarding this topic, some would also consider the following verse to be refering to prema bhakti:

 

yasya deve para bhaktir

yatha-deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hy arthah

prakashante mahatmanah

 

"Only unto those great souls who have implicit devotion in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed."

 

The words "para bhakti", or roughly "superior devotion", can be interpreted as prema-bhakti.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The source is Shvetashvatara Upanishad 6.38.

 

[shvu]

 

Devotion is one of the 3 main paths to God, alongwith Jnana and Karma. It does not in any way mean that Devotion is the only true Sanathana Dharma. It is one of the 3 paths.

 

Cheers

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

Devotion is one of the 3 main paths to God, alongwith Jnana and Karma. It does not in any way mean that Devotion is the only true Sanathana Dharma. It is one of the 3 paths.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

That is irrelevant, as I am not trying to establish devotion as anything. The point is to show that bhakti, and prema-bhakti were not created 300 or so years ago, as someone around here claimed. Was that you, or was it someone else who made that claim?

 

 

[shvu]

 

It was me, of course. Who else? :-)

 

Devotion is just Bhakti. I was referring to the Prema-Bhakti that is the sentiment of the Gaudiyas. Such a concept of 'Bhakti not Mukti' is not supported in the Sruti, and was not around before Chaitanya. Bhakti in the Sruti, is a means to Moksha.

 

Cheers

[shvu]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It does not in any way mean that Devotion is the only true Sanathana Dharma.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Just to clarify: I was not telling this to you. It was specifically against 'Prema-Bhakti is the only true Sanathana-Dharma'

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

 

>> It was specifically against 'Prema-Bhakti is the only true Sanathana-Dharma'

 

Following Sankaracarya reazoning, we would say that:

 

asya ca yuktayuktatve suribhir eva evagantavye iti

krtam paradosodbhavanena nah siddhantam

atra vyakhyana-pravrttir nama iti

(Sankara's comment of Brahma-sutra 1.1.12)

 

In this commentary, Sankaracarya was against his paramgurus's opinion that jñana alone is the cause of ananda. Goudapada's "Sankhya Karika" and "Mandukhya Karika" strongly defend jñana as the sole cause of brahma-ananda. Sankara has rejected this thesis with this comment. Everyone knows it.

 

Therefore, following Sankara's reasoning, there may be another cause of ananda that is not jñana.

 

We consider that sanatana-dharma is meant to attain the everlasting goal, that Sankara and many other acaryas state that is brahma-ananda.

As you state that karma, jñana and bhakti are 3 different ways to attain the same aim (you said God, but Sankara state that the aim is ananda), your acarya has explicated that jñana is not a perfect way. Therefore, jñana should not be considered as sanatana-dharma, but as a temporary dharma.

 

So rest two options: karma and bhakti as the only real sanatana-dharma. You may choice.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

BTW: We would like to known your understanding of the value of Agamas as a source of instruction.

[shvu]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...your acarya has explicated that jñana is not a perfect way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Allow me to correct you. Shankara said that all the 3 paths can lead one to Moksha. He did not differentiate between them to say one is superior or one is imperfect and so on. He has written a Bhasya on the BG, and as you know the BG itself describes all 3 paths in detail.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>BTW: We would like to known your understanding of the value of Agamas as a source of instruction. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

No idea.

 

Cheers

[shvu]

 

When you say 'we', does that mean just you or are you actually a bunch of people sitting before the monitor? Just curious.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

Dear Shvuji:

 

Nice you quote BHAGAVAD-GITA. Sankara has a great respect for that sastra. Hope you too, following his foot steps.

 

In the conclusion of Gita, Sri Krsna did not place karma and jñana at the same level of bhakti. He had only stressed bhakti as follows:

 

sarva-guhyatamam bhuyah / srnu me paramam vacah

isto 'si me drdham iti / tato vaksyami te hitam

(B.G. 18. 64)

 

"Hear once more My supreme instruction, the most confidential of all knowledge. I am speaking this for your highest benefit, because you are very dear to Me."

 

manmana bhava mad-bhakto / mad-yaji mam namaskuru

mam evaisyasi satyam te / pratijane priyo 'si me

(B.G. 18.65)

 

"Offer your mind to Me; become My bhakta by hearing and chanting, etc. about My names, forms, qualities and pastimes; worship Me and offer obeisances to Me. In this way you will certainly come to Me. I promise you this truthfully because you are very dear to Me."

 

And we offer you the comment made by savisesa-abheda acarayas on these verses:

 

When Sri Krsna saw that His dear friend, Arjuna, had fallen silent while deliberating on the deep and grave meanings of this Gita-sastra, His heart, which is as soft as butter, melted and He said, "O Arjuna, My dear friend, now I will speak the very essence of all sastra to you in these concluding eight slokas." If Arjuna asks, "Why will You take further trouble to explain this?", then in answer Sri Bhagavan speaks this sloka beginning with the words sarva-guhyatamam. "

 

I am again giving you the essence of the Ninth Chapter, raja vidya raja guhyam, in the sloka beginning with the words man-mana bhava mad-bhakto. This statement is indeed the supreme statement, for it is the essence of the Gita-sastra, which is the summum bonum of all sastras. The word guhyatamam means that there is nothing more confidential than this to be found anywhere. It is absolute. I am speaking this again for your greatest benefit because You are My very dear friend (isto 'si me drdham iti). Why not? After all, a person does not tell the most confidential secrets to anyone except his dearest friend." Some versions of the Gita use the phrase isto 'si me drdha-matih instead of drdham iti.

 

Sri Gita is called an Upanisad. It is the essence of the Vedas and of the Upanisads. One can only understand its innermost intention by the mercy of Bhagavan and His bhaktas. These confidential instructions cannot be understood merely on the strength of one's intelligence, nor through the medium of karmis, jñanis, or non-devotees who consider the form of Bhagavan to be illusory and devoid of potency. Only the exclusive, fully surrendered bhaktas of Krsna can, by His grace, become aware of these most confidential instructions. This sloka is spoken by Sri Bhagavan for the explicit purpose of explaining this secret.

 

Arjuna is Sri Krsna's fully ekantika bhakta, and is very dear to Him. He is, therefore, qualified to hear this most confidential instruction. In the same way, only ekantika-Krsna-bhaktas are capable of comprehending this most secret instruction of the Gita, not others. The ekantika bhaktas are exclusively surrendered to Krsna, knowing Him to be sac-cid-ananda parabrahma, and are thus actively engaged in following His instructions and directions, being freed from any doubt or controversy.

 

Krsna is saying, "I spoke guhya, (confidential) brahma-jñana to you and guhyatara (more confidential) isvara-jñana. Now I am instructing guhyatama (most confidential) bhagavat-jñana. Please listen. This is superior to all the other instructions I have given in this Gita-sastra. I am imparting it to you for your eternal welfare, because you are very dear to Me."

 

 

"Man-mana bhava means that you should meditate on Me by becoming My exclusive bhakta. Do not become a jñani or a yogi and think of Me as they do. Alternatively, man-mana bhava means that you should become like one who has offered his mind to Me, uyamasundara, who is showering upon you a sweet, merciful glance from My very beautiful moon-like face that is adorned with exquisite arched eyebrows and soft curly hair.

 

Mad-bhaktah means to offer your senses to Me. In other words perform bhajana to Me by engaging all your senses in My seva, that is, by performing sravaNam and kirtanam, seeing My sri-murti, cleansing and decorating My temple, collecting flowers and making garlands, decorating Me with ornaments, offering Me an umbrella, camara and performing other services.

 

Mad-yaji means to worship Me and offer articles such as fragrant flowers, incense, a ghee lamp and bhoga. Mam namaskuru means offering dandavat praNamas, falling down on the ground and offering obeisances with either eight or five limbs of your body.

 

Mam evaisyasi means you will surely achieve Me by performing the four activities of thinking, serving, worshipping and offering obeisances, or by performing even one of them. Offer your mind to Me, and all your senses, such as the ear and tongue, and in return I will give Myself to you. This is true; do not doubt it." According to the Amara-kosa Dictionary, the words satya (truth), sapatha (vow) and tathya (fact) are synonyms. If Arjuna says, "The people of Mathura take vows at every step (but in fact are unable to maintain them), so how can I believe the vow of You who are Mathuresa Krsna?", in response Sri Bhagavan says, "This is true, but I am making this promise because you are very dear to Me. A person does not deceive those who are dear to him."

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Shvuji:

 

Regarding Agamas, all of Vaisnavas-sampradayas are mixed with Pañcaratra. They are not pure Vedantic anyway.

 

Therefore one may find only a very few mention on prema-bhakti in srutis. Most of these information are in jñanamrtasara texts, such as Narada Pañcaratra, Gautama-pañcaratra and other Vaisnava tantras.

 

Do you believe that Sankara's sect is freed from tantric tradition?

 

Do you known the meaning of pañcaratra or agama?

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

 

[shvu]

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

If you mean Agamas, I would have to say Agamas exist in all traditions where there is worship.

 

So, Tattvadis and other Vaisnava-sampradayas are never pure Vedantic, as well as Sankara's sect. When we employ the word Agama we are meant to refer to sattvika-tantra, that are the same.

 

Please summarize your understanding of pañcaratrica, tantra or agama. We only want to know if we are talking on the same concepts. Be tranquil, no belligerent mood here.

 

Do the Gaudidya Vaishnavas have Agamic worship or is worship carried out only in the

form of chanting the names of Krishna?

 

Gaudiya-vaisnavas' worship is ruled by pañcaratra. To worship is named arcana, and it is one of the limbs of bhakti. To chant is named kirtana, another limb of bhakti. They may be practiced together with the other limbs or isolated. No matter.

 

In our line we give more importance to the processes of sravana, kirtana, and smarana than to arcana. In a general manner, all the processes of bhakti may be considered as ruled by pañcaratra. But sruti, smrti and also ithihasas are the basis, or the foundation of the whole system.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[shvu]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Please summarize your understanding of pañcaratrica, tantra or agama.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

My understanding of Agama is minimal. I must also add that I have no idea where this is leading to.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Be tranquil, no belligerent mood here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

I am as calm and serene as a cow in Goloka.

 

Cheers

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

In the Gaudiya line, the worship is performed accorinding to the text Narada Pancharatra. The Gaudiyas simultaneously emplay two paths of service, one according to the Pancharatras, and one according to eh Bhagavata. The bhagavata-marga includes the nine processes of bhakti (sravanam, kirtanam, smaranam, etc.). The pancharatrika-marga deals primarily with regulated activities of service to the deity.

 

The distinction between the vaikhanasa-agama and the pancharatra-agama, is the qualification for service. In the pancharatra-agamas, anyone who chants the name of the Lord is considered purified and qualified to engage in the worship of the deity, who is an incarnation of Vishnu (archa-avatara).

 

In the vaikhanasa-agamas, there are pre-requisites for service, such as proper samskaras and established culture (varnashrama dharma).

 

[shvu]

 

Question:

 

Do the Gaudidya Vaishnavas have Agamic worship or is worship carried out only in the form of chanting the names of Krishna?

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

As Jñana dasa has kindly explained, Gaudiya-vaisnavas follow a mixed process, amalgamating bhagavata-marga and pañcaratrica-marga. This is to be compared as a rail road track with its two parallel lines that support the train.

 

If one consider the Bhagavata as a natural commentary on Vedanta-sutra made by Vedavyasa, them this bhagavata-marga may connect Gaudiya-vaisnavas with the Vedic tradition. If one does not, he may consider Gaudiya-vaisnava as non-Vedic at all. No matter. Regarding this point of view we follow the sastric injunction:

 

laukiki vaidhi vapi ya kriya kriyante mune

hari-sevanukulaiva sa karaya bhaktim iccha

 

"Any activity, whether it is Vedic (spiritual) or laukika (mundane) must be performed in a manner with is favourable to bhakti."

 

This is the proper perspective on transformations of matter in time, and it is only found in the Vedic system of thought, even when you apparently reject that system, as the case of Buddhists. No situation past, present, or future can possibly exist beyond the scope of the Vedas. Therefore, we consider all stages to be transformation of the Vedic eternal stage, and all Vedic dharsans will never be unfavourable to discuss the eternal Vaikuntha-tattva, even if they allege to deny it.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[animesh]

________

No situation past, present, or future can possibly exist beyond the scope of the Vedas.

________

 

What exactly is the meaning of this?

[Guest guest]

 

The Meaning Of Pañcaratra

 

We will offer you two different explanations regarding the meaning of pañcaratra. They are meant to different levels of understanding, and may be considered as complementary, and not antagonistic. To fully understand

its deep meaning one should be the recipient of Sri Guru's mercy.

 

1 st Explanation:

 

It is said in so many sastras, that once, after a mahotsava in Satyaloka, Sri Brahma has eaten to much, and thereafter he has a nap of a few seconds.

 

When Brahmaji is sleeping these material worlds enter into a pralaya, or a devastation. All living entities get back to their non-manifested state (Gita 8.18). So, the material world was suddenly affected by a pralaya. Vedas were also immediately eclipsed.

 

But at that time, all living entities had their karma to be fulfilled, and they weren't to be forced to enter into a non-manifested stated out of the season.

 

Lord Siva and Naradaji, were aware of that abnormal situation. Sambhu took the management of the whole situation to prevent the destruction of all the brahmanda. The living entities could therefore continue their path into their spiritual evolution without enter into their non-manifest and unconscious state.

 

But there was a big problem to be solved. How the living entities would perform their sacred duties without a lore? All Vedas were eclipsed at that abnormal night (ratra or agama). Then, Naradaji has provided the essence of all Vedic lore, a Jñanamrtasara (the essence of the jñana's nectar from Vedas) to be the lore during these nights.

 

Actually, the whole duration of that Brahma's nap was of five nights in this material world, or pañcaratra. (pañca=five + ratra = night). During those nights when Vedas where eclipsed, these scriptures whose injunctions were meant to a night period like that, were called Agamas (nights), that is the same of Pañcaratras or Tantras.

 

Those who followed that system had attained a very fast development in their spiritual lives during those nights. Therefore, Agamas were preserved and are never eclipsed like sometimes it happenings with Vedic lore.

 

Kali-yuga is to be consider as a dark season during a Brahma's day. It is not a real clear day, and it not a night. It is just like a dark and short day during the winter.

 

So, at this period of darkness, Vedic lore are somewhat eclipsed. No Vedic-mantra is effective in that season. No one is able to pronounce the mantras correctly, and therefore sabda-brahma (transcendental sound) is very difficult to be transmitted to the sincere souls. No real diksa is possible by Vedic process.

 

Then, the parampara should be organized on basis of the Pañcaratrika system, that is still working in this abnormal and dark season called Kali-yuga. The 4 authorized Vaisnavas-sampradayas during Kali-yuga should adopt Pañcaratrika method of transference of sabda-brahma.

 

But not all the Vedic lore is eclipsed during a part of Kali-yuga. Only srutis. Smrtis such as Puranas, Upanisads, and specially Bhagavata Purana are still manifested during the first period of Kali-yuga , during at least more 10,000 years (in the last period at the end of this age they will also be eclipsed). And they are very powerful to conceive instructions on spiritual matters to all jivas (smrti siksa).

 

2 nd Explanation:

 

In this material world all jivas are merged into a dream state, just like it happens at night time. According the degree of this sleeping situation, jivas can be placed in 5 different stages:

 

1. Avaidhis; jivas who are bellow the stage of adherence to sastric injunctions. They are living like animals and other low species, only worried with their gross sense gratification, completely deluded by maya.

 

2. Sakama-karmis: jivas who are adherent to sastric injunctions as a mean to increase their sense gratification. They enter into de system of kama, artha and dharma with the sole purpose of increase their sense gratification in a more sophisticated way. They may theists or atheists.

 

3. Niskama-karmis: jivas who had realized that by following tri-varga (kama, artha, dharma) they cannot attain everlasting pleasure. Their tendency is, therefore, to reject karma and its implications. They may offer the result of their karma to Bhagavan or they may opt to perform dry renunciation in a non believer way.

 

4. Saranagati; jivas who surrender all their karma, vikarma and akarma to Sri Bhagavan or to Sri Guru, realizing that they need to be instructed on spiritual matters by a bona fide source of this kind of knowledge. They actually are freed from karma-marga forever and at the entrance door of a superior platform .

5. Jñanis; jivas who are in the process of spiritual instruction, following sastric injunctions and hearing sastras from Sri Guru's mouth. They are at the end of the night, or at the 5 th night time, just before dawn.

 

Day light is to be compared to the full spiritual awaking. This is the process of sanatana-dharma, or jivas' eternal occupation in this material world. This is a gradual process that may take several lifetimes to be completed. Agamas texts give gradual instructions meant to these different levels.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Guest guest]

No situation past, present, or future can possibly exist beyond the scope of the Vedas.

What exactly is the meaning of this?

 

Dear Animeshji;

 

All Vedic lore are evidences in the form of sabdha-brahma (transcendental sound), therefore they are the embodiment of svatah-siddha-jñana (pure and self-manifested knowledge).

 

As sabdha-brahma is sanatana, and it is also de cause of all possibilities (material worlds are created by this sound), nothing can exist beyond Vedas. If one employ the word veda, or the word amnaya to describe this svatah-siddha-jñana, no matter.

 

Therefore, the proof of the self-evidence of Vedic lore, including smrti, ithihasas and agamas, are to be received only by sadbha-brahma, never by reading through one's own account or any other indriya-paratantra, the kind of knowledge that jivas may attain through their material senses.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Guest guest]

Lord Krishna CAN BE REACHED through FAITH and NOT BY LOGIC",is the OPINION of Sri Chaitnya.

 

Nice post and we fully agree with this statement. And we should also conciliate this premise with or past posts.

 

It is not any quality of faith (sraddha) that can cause one to attain Sri Krsna's eternal seva or any other transcendental aim. Mundane faith (laukika) cannot do it. Only paramarthika-sraddha, or transcendental faith is the real cause of that accomplishment.

 

Paramarthika-sraddha only will be awakened in the heart of a jiva through the process of hearing sabdha-brahma from a transcendental source, that is named Sri Guru. This method of awaking of paramarthika-sraddha is named diksa.

 

There is no chance to awake real paramarthika-sraddha besides through the process of diksa, when one receive the seed of the transcendental sound in the form of his diksa mantras imparted by Sri Guru.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa