Sex in the Spiritual World

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

> In srimad bhagavatham , fifth canto (one

>of the purports) , prabhupad explains that

>people have sex in spiritual world and

>there is no possibility of conception

>there. How sex is possible between

>different persons in spiritual world( then

>How we can be krishna conscious there)?. In

>other words , this leads to a question,

>what do we mean by saying that material

>world is just a reflection of spiritual

>world? ( I am sorry that i do not know the

>exact purport and line).

 

The term sex is in reference to the sanskrit concept of rasa, the original spiritual relationships. In the material world this rasa is best reflected as mundane sex. But even in this there are many gradations according to the degrees of covering by the three modes. The Taitiriya Upanisad describes the degrees of enjoyment among the different human species, from the common man, to the gandharva, apsara, siddha, deva, devadeva, devendra, brahma, etc. Each being one hundred times greater or more complete than the previous.

 

As you go from lower species to higher species, what we refer to as sex exists in many different ways. It is the same for all the sensory activities. For example, our system of digestion is very gross. After we eat, the food is digested, and the waste is passed out. In the higher species such as gandharvas, the waste products are evaporated into the air automatically. There is no passing of waste. So the entire system of digestion is much more subtle, which is in tune with their own subtle existence.The activity of sex is similar. As you move up through the species it becomes more and more subtle, and less physical. For the gandharvas it involves mostly singing, for apsaras it involves mostly dancing. For higher devatas it involves mainly sight. When you come to the level of Lord Brahma, sex involves mainly the intellectual process. When you compare it to some of the lower species such as insects, they appear as completely different activities. For example after the praying mantis mates, the female eats off the head of the male. This is the same activity the gandharvas are performing by singing. The only difference is that the coverings of the the modes are so thick and heavy that it comes out in such a low aspect. Now if there is such a huge contrast even between material sex, then what to speak of the difference between material and spiritual sex. Ultimately sex is the transmission of a relationship. When we are covered by the modes, this relationship takes a lower physical nature. As you go through to higher species, the relationship becomes less and less physical, and more subtle. When you come to the spiritual platform, it no longer is a physical or mental activity, but a spiritual exchange of a relationship. This exchange of relationship on the spiritual platform is called rasa. Thus when Srila Prabhupada refers to sex between different living entities in the spiritual world, he is refering to an exchange of a spiritual relationship, with Krishna as the center.

 

[Praghosa dasa 0]

Truly interesting jndas.

[Praghosa dasa 0]

esu purusanam ayuta-purusayur-varsanam deva-kalpanam nagayuta-prananam vajra-samhanana-bala-vayo-moda-pramudita-maha-saurata-mithuna-vyavayapavarga-varsa-dhrtaika-garbha-kalatranam tatra tu treta-yuga-samah kalo vartate.

SYNONYMS

esu -- in these (eight) varsas, or tracts of land; purusanam -- of all the men; ayuta -- ten thousand; purusa -- by the measure of men; ayuh-varsanam -- of those whose years of life; deva-kalpanam -- who are like the demigods; naga-ayuta-prananam -- having the strength of ten thousand elephants; vajra-samhanana -- by bodies as solid as thunderbolts; bala -- by bodily strength; vayah -- by youth; moda -- by abundant sense enjoyment; pramudita -- being excited; maha-saurata -- a great deal of sexual; mithuna -- combinations of man and woman; vyavaya-apavarga -- at the end of their period of sexual enjoyment; varsa -- in the last year; dhrta-eka-garbha -- who conceive one child; kalatranam -- of those who have wives; tatra -- there; tu -- but; treta-yuga-samah -- exactly like the Treta-yuga (when there is no tribulation); kalah -- time; vartate -- exists.

TRANSLATION

In these eight varsas, or tracts of land, human beings live ten thousand years according to earthly calculations. All the inhabitants are almost like demigods. They have the bodily strength of ten thousand elephants. Indeed, their bodies are as sturdy as thunderbolts. The youthful duration of their lives is very pleasing, and both men and women enjoy sexual union with great pleasure for a long time. After years of sensual pleasure -- when a balance of one year of life remains -- the wife conceives a child. Thus the standard of pleasure for the residents of these heavenly regions is exactly like that of the human beings who lived during Treta-yuga.

PURPORT

There are four yugas: Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga, Dvapara-yuga and Kali-yuga. During the first yuga, Satya-yuga, people were very pious. Everyone practiced the mystic yoga system for spiritual understanding and realization of God. Because everyone was always absorbed in samadhi, no one was interested in material sense enjoyment. During Treta-yuga, people enjoyed sense pleasure without tribulations. Material miseries began in Dvapara-yuga, but they were not very stringent. Stringent material miseries really began from the advent of Kali-yuga.

Another point in this verse is that in all eight of these heavenly varsas, although men and women enjoy sex pleasure, there is no pregnancy. Pregnancy takes place only in lower-grade life. For example, animals like dogs and hogs become pregnant twice a year, and each time they beget at least half a dozen offspring. Even lower species of life such as snakes give birth to hundreds of young at one time. This verse informs us that in grades of life higher than ours, pregnancy occurs once in a lifetime. People still have sex life, but there is no pregnancy. In the spiritual world, people are not very attracted to sex life, due to their exalted devotional attitude. Practically speaking, there is no sex life in the spiritual world, but even if sometimes it does occur, there is no pregnancy at all. On the planet earth, however, human beings do become pregnant, although the tendency is to avoid having children. In this sinful age of Kali, people have even taken to the process of killing the child in the womb. This is the most degraded practice; it can only perpetuate the miserable material conditions of those who perform it. VedaBase => SB 5.17.12

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

I am sorry for not writing earlier, but I have been traveling the last 10 days and have had very little chance to write. Thank you very much for posting the reference verse from the Srimad Bhagavatam. I did not have access to it, and it has been a while since I have read it. I wanted to post some verses from Taitiriya Upanishad in this connection, but mysteriously my Taitiriya Upanishad book has vanished just last week.

 

In the higher planetary systems conception occurs only once in the life, just prior to death. It is actually a great benefit for the female denizens of heaven, as they know when they are going to die. For the males on the other hand it is quite sudden and shocking. Of course, due to their absorption in sense gratificatory activities, even the females may be taken by surprise. The descriptions of the death of the higher beings is described in detail in the scriptures. The heavenly dwellers will be enjoying with their consort, drinking the soma rasa (a heavenly intoxicant), without any idea what is about to occur. At the point when their punya (accumulated pious results) is finished they will suddenly fall from the heavenly realm (ksine punye martya-lokam visanti). There will be nothing supporting them below their feet. As they fall through the ethereal space, they can still see the heavenly abode, and they see their consort has immediately taken another partner for enjoyment, as though they had never existed. As he falls through the space, he comes to an area which is frequented by many lower beings. These beings know the area where the celestial beings fall through, thus they wait there to eat them as they fall from their heavenly abodes. These lower beings begin to devour the living entities heavenly body as he falls towards the earthly abode. While being eaten alive, the heavenly being observes his previous realm, and sees his previous consort continuing to enjoy with other men. At this time, due to the intense pain in his heart, he begins to cry, and his soul leaves his body through his eyes within a tear drop. The tear drop falls to earth and mixes with the rain clouds. When the rain falls, the soul of the heavenly being lands on the earth and enters into a seed of grain. The grain grows and is latter eaten by a human. The soul of the heavenly being (along with his subtle covering) thus enters into the semen of a human and is latter born within the earthly abode.

 

In the Gita Krishna briefly describes this process:

 

te tam bhuktva svarga lokam visalam

ksine punye martya-lokam visanti

 

"After enjoying in the heavenly abode (svarga-loka), when their pious results are exhausted, they again enter the abode of death ." Krishna's use of the word visalam is significant, they do not just enjoy, as we enjoy. But their enjoyment is extremely vast. Their sense perception is hundreds of times greater than ours. When they smell a flower, or when they taste something, they are experiencing something completely different than what we are experiencing through our senses. It is like someone having a cold and a stuffy nose trying to smell a flower. They will not experience the flower. We are similar when compared to the higher heavenly beings. We are not actually experiencing matter in its true state. We have no idea of how something smells, tastes, or feels. This is what is described in the Taitiriya Upanishad. And as you go up to even higher beings, the case is the same for them, until you finally come to Lord Brahma, the engineer of the material universe. Only Lord Brahma can experience matter in its true fullness. Only he knows what a flower actually smells like, or what taste, touch and sight actually are. What then to speak of sense perception beyond matter. Spiritual sense enjoyment, cannot be understood by anyone within this material world. Even material sense enjoyment cannot be understood, it is practically limitless, yet higher, much higher, is the spiritual sense perception. Thus Krishna describes it as su-sukham kartum avyayam. By using the prefix "su" Krishna is stating that it belongs to an entirely different category from the ordinary happiness of this world.

 

In the purport Srila Prabhupada mentions the various grades of enjoyment, from the snake up to the demigods. When you compare the enjoyment of the demigod with that of the snake, they have very few similarities, what to speak of the spiritual enjoyment in Vaikuntha. We can not compare it even to the highest activities within this world, even though it may be described in similar words. As far as pregnancy not occuring within the spiritual realm, this is an obvious fact, as there is no birth nor death. Pregnancy is a process of the cycle of birth and death. In the Gita Krishna explains that whatever has a begining in time will also have an end. Thus whatever is born is sure to die. I would not put too much importance on this statement in trying to understand what is this spiritual sex being referred to, as it is just a general fact, and not a particular description. I would like to add one point which was not so clear in my original post. The "sex" that occurs between two living entities within the spiritual realm is simply an exchange of a direct loving relationship between the two due to each others appreciation for the others service to Krishna. It has no connection with the concept of sex as found within the mundane realm.

 

J.N. Das

[v2k 0]

Rupa Goswami calls the subject of spiritual sex in the perfect sense "Kamarupa." Below is my translation of his description of Kamarupa Ragatmika, taken from Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 1.2.283-287.

 

For a more readable and complete version, please visit www.the-gita.net

 

 

 

 

tatra kAmarUpA

 

Now, KAmarUpA

 

Having verified his statement that there are two types of RAgAtmikA, and having addressed the confusions that arose, Rupa Goswami now proceeds to define and describe those two types of RAgAtmikA, beginning with KAmarUpA.

 

sA kAmarUpA sambhoga triSNAM yA nayati svatAm |

yad asyAM kriSNa-saukhyArtham eva kevalam udyamaH

[v2k 0]

Rupa Goswami calls the subject of spiritual sex in the perfect sense "Kamarupa." Below is my translation of his description of Kamarupa Ragatmika, taken from Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 1.2.283-287.

 

For a more readable and complete version, please visit www.the-gita.net

 

 

 

 

tatra kAmarUpA

 

Now, KAmarUpA

 

Having verified his statement that there are two types of RAgAtmikA, and having addressed the confusions that arose, Rupa Goswami now proceeds to define and describe those two types of RAgAtmikA, beginning with KAmarUpA.

 

sA kAmarUpA sambhoga triSNAM yA nayati svatAm |

yad asyAM kriSNa-saukhyArtham eva kevalam udyamaH

[v2k 0]

Well, apparently there is a size limit or something. So I can't post it here. Please go to http://www.the-gita.net/BRS/1-2-270.htm#283

 

Sorry.

[SiddharthJoshi 0]

As Kndas said, according to Bhagavad Gita, enjoyment is classified as "su-sukham kartum avyayum". I have a question in that it seems that we are perceiving and executing devotional service through our material senses, so since Srila Prabhupada has established that devotional service immediately places us above material nature and in transendence, doesn't it mean that we are operating on the premise of "happily performed" in terms of devotional service practiced through our conditioned state?

[ethos 0]

Alot of interestinig info here. Let's play it again!

[Guest guest]

sorry, i'm gonna have to disagree on a few points.

 

i believe there is indeed sex in the spiritual world,

actual physical sex.

 

 

otherwise what is the purpose of genitalia ?

If they do not get pregnant,and do not have actual physical sex, why are they male and female ?

 

to me it is inconcievable that there would be no sex,

the spiritual world is superior to the material world,there would not be less pleasure there,there would be

more pleasure,this is common sense.

 

the difference between mundane sex and spiritual sex is

that material sex is done to exploit ,whereas

sex in the spiritual realm is done to give pleasure.

[ethos 0]

Shiva, did I say all that?

 

I can accept that there is sex in the spiritual world. But I think not so much.

 

I would like to pursue the idea of children resulting from sex in the spiritual world. Spiritual things and persons there are eternal and not "created". Can anyone say something about this?

[Guest guest]

 

i don't know about the amount of sex,but Srila

Rupa goswami was assigned to write about the rasa in Vrndavana.

in his play about the taking of the toll,dana-keli kaumadi is the name i think, Krishna and the gopa's

prevent Radha and gopi's from passing unless they

pay a toll, the toll is a kiss from Radha,the gopi's

balk, and then Krishna and the gopa's try to

get the gopi's to eat some intoxicant in order to incite their lust !

 

The gita-govinda describes Radha's mad lustiness,

surely sex is a big part of the goings on in the groves and hidden bowers of vraja.

 

Also the relationship between the gopis and gopas

is not just about feelings,and games,and playing like children, they are the described best i think

by Sri Rupa in the nectar of devotion-' when will i have

the feelings for govinda ,that is exactly like that of a young boy for a girl'-

 

 

[ethos 0]

Shiva, you have cookies turned on, right?

 

Perhaps I should qualify my statement above as I should've done the first time.

 

I think sex about and for Krsna personally is realistic, and this includes assisting Him.

 

But for sex to go on between individuals apart from Krsna I am very dubious about. I think this happens very little. But I'm surely open to a different opinion.

 

Now what about producing children in the spiritual world? Anybody?

[Guest guest]

 

To understand what is going on and what is not going on

in vraja, is revealed to those who are ready.

 

to understand the rasa between the inhabitants of vraja,

is not possible without guidance by those

who are actually in that rasa.

 

That is the process,one is given instruction

by one who has experienced the divine reality,

when you are ready Krishna will send you the proper

guidance.

First you need to understand what is the desire

of Sri Radha Krishna .

what is the way to please them.

 

what do they desire of me.

 

How can I give pleasure to them ?

 

[Guest guest]

This is good advice from Shiva here. For there may well be those in the forums with qualifications to talk on sex in the material world, but come on- sex in the spiritual world?

Who among us? Unless one has that kind of Muslim mindset where one is looking forward to virgins in heaven, why would you even be interested. These are the sort of topics that stirr up curiosity that kills the cat or rather bhakti lata. It is recommended by those infinitly wiser than all of us put together to stay clear of such entertainment. These queries often come from reading and meditating on higher literatures that are also recommended by the higher authorities to stay clear of, unless divinely directed to do so. And even then one should tread very gingerly and also be aware of who we are sharing such information with. As there are many aspirants in this Krsna conception who are by no means ready for such knowledge. Mainly because the question itself doesn't just stop with a simple answer.

Rather unless you be as a young child with pure heart and thought you shall in no way enter the kingdom of God.

Sexual interest in all forms merely gives us another birth in this material body and keeps us locked on the wheel of birth and death. And hence separate from serving the higher will of guru and God, when even one thought of enjoyment enters the consciousness it removes us from that service world.

[ethos 0]

I need to read these long threads again.

 

Shiva, what you said just above sounds perfect. But I dare say it is not the last word. We understand things by both positive and negative definition. In "This is Shiva, Still can't login?" your response was exactly the opposite. So, there are dulaistic perspectives in everything.

 

What we don't know we can inquire about. This board is a convienent medium for that. I don't know everything, and perhaps some of my peers can offer valuable knowledge and advice.

 

Guest, I think the topic can be responsibly discussed. I once heard that whereas sex is the basis and the highest material pleasure here, it is exactly the opposite in the spiritual world. Sex, as a process of self gratification, is least prominent in a world of spiritual values.

 

Prabhupada has repeatedly pointed out that even hearing of Krsna's amorous pastimes and loving affairs would cleanse the heart of lust and sexual desire.

 

If it can be discussed maturely and responsibly, there might be much to learn. Sages in the past have discussed these things, and someone might be able to convey those messages here.

 

If people cheat others with this knowledge, what can be done? People abuse everything. People even claim to be God. Should we stop discussing God? I don't think we can offer any new insights that a resourceful cheater can manipulate.

 

In fact, most if not all of this Vedic information is for our advancement and edification. It really can't be exploited in let's say a gross material sense such as the scientists who understand and manipulate the world. We can't challenge or threaten God. If some individual or persons cheat others with a poor fund of information, that's very lamentable. But what can be done?

 

It can be discussed without a thought of enjoyment. After all, we're talking philosophy, not pornography.

[Guest guest]

Bhaktajoy here.

 

Sex is perverted reflection of original love.In spiritual world where everything is made up of spirit,sex is there in the form of pure love which is 10 million times greater than mundane sex pleasure of this material world.Also the feeling never goes away.It remains for eternity.

 

So after understanding this fact who would see physical contact as ultimate pleasure?Matter is just the opposite of spirit.After death we will know.Spirit has more pleasure than gross.

[ethos 0]

In the translation of Praghosa's Bhagavatam example above:

 

After years of sensual pleasure -- when a balance of one year of life remains -- the wife conceives a child.

 

So who raises the offspring then?

[ethos 0]

So much information in the purport to Praghosa's Bhagavatam example above as well as JNdas's original post.

 

Heavenly beings who are spiritually advanced, have sex less often but are free of immediate gross responsibilities or incumberances.

 

The animal kingdom only has sex when driven by nature. And generally, the lower you go the more children are produced.

 

I would imagine this is cause they are food for others. Now imagine being born multiple times in different species only to be eaten as a child. So, can the punished soul continue then to the next form in the soul's evolution or does he have to take birth as that particular being again until he survives and matures?

 

Are there so many births too because most of the humans go down to lower species where they are forced to accept their karma?

 

I wonder what psychology is at play surrounding multiple births of which many are decimated. Is is supposed to subtly train the consciousness to be detached as the punishments in hell subtly mold our consciousness?

 

And what insight these polarities between the animals and demigods have concerning our own situation! I can't think and write about this at the same time. It's quite a meditation. Can anyone contribute more?

[Guest guest]

well to tell you the truth,there is just not much to talk about concerning sex in the spiritual realm.

 

they have sex, they enjoy life, what of it ?

 

how much ? who ? these questions indeed have answers,but are of little relevance except to those in their eternal

rasa.

So first you must become self realized,first you must become Krishna conscious,first you must accept the Guru

who can introduce you to the highest reality.

Then you are given actual entrance into the eternal

rasa lila, not until then.

 

[ethos 0]

Shiva, you sound so flippant.

 

These questions surrounding sex are about the material world. And they have great relevance is surmising our position here.

 

Try listening for a change.

[Pritesh01 0]

And why is it classed as a hindu book?

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

The Kamasutra is claimed to be written by Vatsayana.

 

It is classified by some as "Hindu" simply because it is written in Sanskrit. It contains nothing about religion or spiritual knowledge. Language can be used for anything. There are also bad words and obscene texts in sanskrit. Simply because something is written in sanskrit does not mean it is a scripture.

 

[karthik_v 0]

As J N Das has correctly pointed out, Kamasutra doesn't qualify as a Hindu scripture. There are several works written in Sanskrit and everything is not religious. There are romantic works such as Kalidasa's Vikramorvasiyam or the numerous Mahayana Buddhist texts that have nothing to do with Hinduism. Likewise Kamasutra isn't a Hindu relgious text.

 

Most academics hold that Kamasutra was written during the Gupta era during the first few centuries of the Christian era, but that is again a conjecture. All we can say with certainty is that it existed by then. What I need to point out is that Kamasutra has been incorporated into a lot of religious writings and sculptures though. Most ancient temples have engravings based on Kamasutra. Many puranas, such as Brahma Vaivarta Purana, have been shown to portray the sensuality between Radha and Krishna as one adhering to or resembling the rules of Kamasutra.

[Guest guest]

We all think that we are hindus but that is not true we all are belivers of knowledge of Nature, and the knowledge that is eternal and infinty, can never be fenced or bounded in one circle or umerella, sex is a very important part of natural knowledge as it is the real cause of you and myself being on this earth but as we all know that to see the results of every knoeledge a scientist does experiment and we all take those conclusions as our knowledge the same way in vedic phylosophy we as Indian were so broad thinker that we have contributed all knowledge openly and clearly sharing with all because there wasn't another person outside manu's family (Vasudev kutumb kum=whole world is one family) so to keep the action of sex safe and controlled and also to see its emerimity all this sutras were in books, there is some knowledge of poison in vedic books too, why we do not try that and take same veiw that we are try to potrait other sutras please use the knowledge with respect and any action in exaguration or over is equal to poison. hope it is clear that we don't try and minuplilate ourself when we know the real goal of life is salvation that is to get out of this circle that run through sex and after overcoming it only there is a way out either you enjoy it and get fade up or you use the knowledge and control your divine sense as sutras explain.

I am also with you in this journey so this is not advise but reminder to my self too.