just venting...opinions welcome

October 11, 2005

I am a 19 year old student, born and bred in the United States, and I am Hindu. Though I don't know as much about my religion as I would like, I have researched it for my own knowledge, read parts of the Gita, been to Chinmaya Mission went I was younger, etc. I think I have a better idea on what Hinduism is than a lot of people my age (that's just my opinion though).

In all of the things I have read about Hinduism, there is ont thing that makes me prouder of being Hindu than anything else. It is when I think of this principle, written in the Upanishads:

As many people, so many ways to God. Every religion is a way to God. No way to God is superior to the other. However, depending on the mental temperament and cultural background of a person, one way might be better suited to him than another. This is difference arises due to the difference in the temperament of the person and cannot be used to judge the general efficacy of a path. "All paths are true. Your path for you. My path for me." This is the principle of Hinduism.

When I read this, I cannot help but believe that Hinduism is the most tolerant religion in the world. And that is why I dislike Hindu fundamentalists more than any other type of fundamentalist. HINDU FUNDAMENTALISTS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO EXIST! I have always been proud of Hindusim because it is so accepting...I have always believed that no other religion is as accepting.

I know many Christians, and when I ask them if they believe that all non-Christians are going to hell, they say yes without a second of hesitation. I respect a person's right to be Christian but I will say I cannot understand how this religion can damn so many people to hell without a moment's hesitation. I cannot tell you how many times people have told me that I will burn in hell for all of eternity because I am not a Christian. This is the reason why I love Hinduism. We do not judge, or at least I thought we didn't.

People talk about how we have to have wars on Islam, wars on Christianity. For God's sake, we are supposed to be the peaceful ones here, the tolerant ones. Hinduism does not have as nearly a bloody history as other religions. I know that Islam and Christianity are religions of conversion (esp Christianity)...and many Hindus feel like we have to fight Muslims and Christians tooth and nail to preserve our religious identities. But when you do this, you are killing the essence of Hinduism.

One more thing: I love Hinduism to death...EXCEPT for the taint that is the caste system. Everybody who supports it, please don't go crazy on me. I know many of you believe that the caste system is Lord Krishna's will. But being who I am, I cannot stand it. Why are Christian missionaries in India having so much success with conversions? It is because lower castes and dalits have nowhere else to go. Their fellow Hindus in higher castes will not help them get out of the rut that is their life, they treat them like subhuman creatures, so they turn to the missionaries. The missionaries give them food, shelter and the Bible along with. Why should they stay in Hinduism, a religion that is keeping them down? I think the caste system is grossly misinterpreted from the way Lord Krishna meant it. I do not think God would advocate such a harsh social hierarchy, it is just not fair. Maybe this is just me being a stupid kid, but I don't care.

Hinduism is about tolerance, within our own society and with other societies. This means taking care of all people, including the lowest castes. If we don't, you can be sure that Christianity will take root. MISSIONARIES ARE ONLY SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE OF THE CASTE SYSTEM. It is the caste system that is killing Hinduism in India. As Hindus, I think we have a responsibility to accept the rights of Muslims and Christians to believe whatever the heck they want, even if they think we are being damned to hell, which most of them do. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THEY THINK. Being a good Hindu does not mean waging war on other religions. It just means being as good as a person as you can be. It is about dharma. Everyone seems to be forgetting this lately.

I don't know if any of this made sense, but it was just venting, so I apologize if it seems random. Leave comments if you want, I'm very interested to hear what others think.

Sephiroth · October 11, 2005

Though I don't know as much about my religion as I would like, I have researched it for my own knowledge, read parts of the Gita, ...

Have you read and understood the whole Gita or are you the type who takes what s/he likes and dump the rest?

For God's sake, we are supposed to be the peaceful ones here, the tolerant ones. Hinduism does not have as nearly a bloody history as other religions. I know that Islam and Christianity are religions of conversion (esp Christianity)...and many Hindus feel like we have to fight Muslims and Christians tooth and nail to preserve our religious identities. But when you do this, you are killing the essence of Hinduism.

Hmph ... you don't know much about Hindusm, do you?

Here's some tips :

1. Sri Krishna gave Arjuna the Sermon of Gita ON the BATTLEFIELD.

2. Sri Krishna instructed Arjuna to perform his duty (Kyastria's duty is to fight, not dance on the battlefield).

3. Sri Krishna said it is NATURE of Man TO FIGHT. Only option he has is how he is going to fight.

Even you are "fighting" when you wrote this post. You are fighting against others for your principles and belief of Hindusm, against others who have different beliefs and principles of Hindusm.

Don't go around saying "To be tolerant is not to fight". That is not tolerance, that is cowardice. That is like sheeps preparing themselves to be slaughtered by the wolves all because they are born sheeps. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Everybody who supports it, please don't go crazy on me. I know many of you believe that the caste system is Lord Krishna's will.

Wrong again. It is NOT Sri Krishna's will nor God's will. God differentiated Man according to each role they can play - according to the Nature of Man itself.

In Nature of Man, the differention already exists. Sri Krishna, through Gita, just brought it out and explained it to Man so they could know their roles, what to do, how to do it and at same time, how to reach Salvation.

The corrupted version of Caste System is Man-made, based on their own Egos and attitude. It has NOTHING to do with Hindusm or Sri Krishna.

Being a good Hindu does not mean waging war on other religions. It just means being as good as a person as you can be. It is about dharma. Everyone seems to be forgetting this lately.

Sorry to say this, but you are not a good Hindu nor do you know how to become a good Hindu. You have corrupted mind-set on what a Hindus supposed to be like. You believe that blind acception of Peace and Tolerance, in face of adverseries is going to make others feel ashame and want to live in peace with us. Sorry to say, it never going to happen. Christians and Muslims have proven that to Hindus (and Jews) many times.

Hindusm have put aside 4 duties according to Nature of Man - Brahmana, Kyastria, Vaishanas and Sudras.

Brahmana study Vedas and Religion. They are peaceful bunch. if you wish to live in peace, be like one (you don't need to be born as one, just live like one).

Vaishnavas are merchant-class. Money makers and Wealth-seekers. You wish to live in materialistic ways - be one. You can still reach God by supporting others - orphans, homeless and such with your money for sake of God.

Sudras are worker class. They may not have Vedic knowledge or wealth, but they reach God by putting their work and performing their duties for sake of God.

However, the duties to Fight falls on shoulders of Kyastria. Their duties is to fight. The war had started on the Internet - Information and Knowledge is the weapon and the Net is the battleground (Kurushektra). Do not distrub the Kyastria in combat. Go and do your selected (by your own self) duties and reach God.

Thank You. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

October 11, 2005

Don't tempt these people, or they'll come up with the usual . about how Hindus should be sooooo tolerant as to get thrashed every day. These people love to talk of Hindu fundamentalism (which is a joke, btw), but conveniently forget about Islamic and christian fundamentalism.

They talk of caste but not class distinctions which are killing the western and islamic world. And worse still, they claim to be Hindus, they claim to love hindus. All clever tricks to trap gullible hindus, do not respond to these people. They are not as ignorant as they sound, they know why Hindus are fighting today (because they're pushed into a corner), and they also know caste problem isn't really a problem at all, because so-called low-castes in india are the ones getting reservations in jobs/education. Brahmins and other high-castes people are amongst the poorest communities. They know all this, mind you.

Yet, they talk about these things again and again to convince people that hindus are evil. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

Sephiroth · October 11, 2005

Yet, they talk about these things again and again to convince people that hindus are evil. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

Well ... s/he is from USA after all. Things there is a bit different than in Asia.

In USA, no matter how hateful another person is toward you (due to your different religion), they are forced to respect your privacy and rights to follow different religion (as stated in the Constitution).

However, same cannot be said in Asia, and our friend there may not know it in its full picture.

Do you (the author of the thread, forgot the name already) know that :

1. In places like Afghan, Pakistan and Bangladesh - it is prohibited for non-Muslims to built temples and do public worshipping for ANY other religion other than Islam?

2. In above mentioned places, ANYONE who leaves Islam are punished by DEATH Sentences?

3. Each year - over 1 Million US Dollars are spend on Missionary duties alone in India? This was according to Roman Church, by the way when they release the news during the crowning of a new Cardinal from Spain a few months back.

This means that every year, Missionaries are invading India with food, money, job opportunities and such, the same way as Missionaries used Trade and War less than 100 years ago.

So, it is not fair to say that Hindus have, at least a little right to defend themselves, especially in the Internet? Christians (and Muslims) are lucky indeed that Hindus do not wage a full-scale war and still remain tolerant.

3. In many countries like Korea (which is mainly Buddhist country), followers of Christians had openly attacked and descrated Temples and labelled the Buddhist followers infidels who will burn in hell?

4. Despite of working hard to correct the mistake it made in World War 2, many Christian sect and groups have been haunting Japan by reminding them their past mistake, all because Japan choose Buddhism and kicked Christianity out? Only less than 5% or so people in Japan are Christians and many Japanese choose to marry non-Christians (Yeah, I got the offer also. ).

5. Muslims had killed hundred of Chinese (Christians and Buddhists) in Indonesia in 1997 - including rape, murder and such? Till today, Indonesia has the highest number of Muslims in Asia.

6. Indonesia is the base for Muslim terrorists and they have been "invading" and using terrorist attacks against other countries like Thailand and Philliphines? Many Muslims in my country (Malaysia) also supports them.

Bottomline - Asia is not same as USA, dear. In Asia, nothing much changed. Religious intolerance still exists, and in many places, it is just one step away from a full-scale war (like in Thailand, Philliphines, India).

So, you choose whether Hindus have right to defend themselves or not. If Hindus choose to fight, it will not because they wish to invade others, it will be to defend themselves.

October 11, 2005

I am amazed by some of the comments made by you Sephoiroth. Why criticise the 19 year old youth. He shows a lot more maturity and understanding than most of us here.And he is also humble.

Seph: Have you read and understood the whole Gita or are you the type who takes what s/he likes and dump the rest?

Why make that assumption ? You are deriding him

Bhavchil: For God's sake, we are supposed to be the peaceful ones here, the tolerant ones. Hinduism does not have as nearly a bloody history as other religions. I know that Islam and Christianity are religions of conversion (esp Christianity)...and many Hindus feel like we have to fight Muslims and Christians tooth and nail to preserve our religious identities. But when you do this, you are killing the essence of Hinduism.

Seph"Hmph ... you don't know much about Hindusm, do you?

Ajith:There you go again putting people down.

Here's some tips :

1. Sri Krishna gave Arjuna the Sermon of Gita ON the BATTLEFIELD.

Ajith:i am sure anyone who reads the Gita knows that. That is not explicit indication to fight muslims or others.

2. Sri Krishna instructed Arjuna to perform his duty (Kyastria's duty is to fight, not dance on the battlefield).

Ajith :Agree, to fight on a principle that he believed in. So Duruyodhana was doing the same. But how does that invalidate Bahvchil's view of tolerance and acceptance. Remember it was Krishna who asked for 5 villages. Krishna attempted his best or through his lila attempted peace. Peace was still the preferred choice. Lets not be selective in gathering information.

Seph:3. Sri Krishna said it is NATURE of Man TO FIGHT. Only option he has is how he is going to fight.

Ajith: Krishna did NOT say it was the nature of man to fight, but the dharma of a kshatriya to protect and to fight and to surrender the fruits of the action.

Seph:Even you are "fighting" when you wrote this post. You are fighting against others for your principles and belief of Hindusm, against others who have different beliefs and principles of Hindusm.

Ajith:Come on, don't exaggerate.He is only stating his views and what Hinduism means to him. Read the title.Just venting...

Seph:Don't go around saying "To be tolerant is not to fight". That is not tolerance, that is cowardice. That is like sheeps preparing themselves to be slaughtered by the wolves all because they are born sheeps.

Ajith: This is totology..Then does it mean that if one fights one is not tolerant ? One has to fight if curcumstances permit. Krishna has spoken about it elsewhere in the Mahabharata. It all depends on circumstances. A kshatriya's dharma is to protect and fighting is only a means to it as Krishna has chown by seeking peace initially. Was Krishna not tolerant ? How about Lord Vishnu who massaged dhurvasas leg after the latter kicked him ?

Everybody who supports it, please don't go crazy on me. I know many of you believe that the caste system is Lord Krishna's will.

Seph:Wrong again. It is NOT Sri Krishna's will nor God's will. God differentiated Man according to each role they can play - according to the Nature of Man itself.

Ajith: You are contradicting yourself. You said neither Krishna not God, (they are different ?) and God differentiated them .. That means it was God will since he created that differentiation for a purpose. My take is this: According to the Vedas, Brahman as purusha, the cosmic being sacrificed himself and his head became brahmins, his arms khatriyas and his legs sudras. This illustrates that all are part of the one Purusha and the head is not superior to the leg. The differentiation is in functionality. The wisdom of this has been lost on future generations. Elsewhere, it is said that the gunas determine the varnas. More on this in a seperate post.

Seph: In Nature of Man, the differention already exists. Sri Krishna, through Gita, just brought it out and explained it to Man so they could know their roles, what to do, how to do it and at same time, how to reach Salvation.

The corrupted version of Caste System is Man-made, based on their own Egos and attitude. It has NOTHING to do with Hindusm or Sri Krishna.

Ajith: The Gita has been used by many to justify the caste system and the misguided notion of superiority.

Seph:Being a good Hindu does not mean waging war on other religions. It just means being as good as a person as you can be. It is about dharma. Everyone seems to be forgetting this lately.

Huh..Being a good Hindu does not mean not waging war ? Does it mean that a good hindu has to wage war ? What is the relevance. neither is a necassary prerequisite. Except in this day and age, we do not simply wage war on whom we dislike, kshatriya or otherwise. Else what we would have is choas.Buddha was write in this regard. Compassion does not mean cowardice. Tolerance is not cowardice. Respect and love is not cowardise.

Sorry to say this, but you are not a good Hindu nor do you know how to become a good Hindu. You have corrupted mind-set on what a Hindus supposed to be like. You believe that blind acception of Peace and Tolerance, in face of adverseries is going to make others feel ashame and want to live in peace with us. Sorry to say, it never going to happen. Christians and Muslims have proven that to Hindus (and Jews) many times.

Ajith: It is arrogance that makes you to say to another that he or she is not a good Hindu. Do you really know the person. A man's religion is between he and his God or Guru and no one else. In most of your mails, you seem to have a seething hatred against muslims and christians. He himself said that he could not understand the intolerant views of christians who beleived that he was going to Hell. He has obviously not accepted that . does that mean he needs to wage war or prevent christians from converting hindus oppressed under the caste system. In his mail, he has said that conversions take place because of the caste system and how it weighs down man. I would go further and would recommend converting to another Dharma if that allows one to come closer to God.

Hindusm have put aside 4 duties according to Nature of Man - Brahmana, Kyastria, Vaishanas and Sudras.

Ajith:Nature of man is based on gunas which in turn determine his varna and dharma. It is not a birthright.

Brahmana study Vedas and Religion. They are peaceful bunch. if you wish to live in peace, be like one (you don't need to be born as one, just live like one).

Agree.

Vaishnavas are merchant-class. Money makers and Wealth-seekers. You wish to live in materialistic ways - be one. You can still reach God by supporting others - orphans, homeless and such with your money for sake of God.

Ajith : All the different margas suchas bhakti, karma, jyana and yoga are applicable to all the varnas, not to any particular varna. Even Chaitanya offered such a view. Bhakti marga irrespective of varna. Now that is true tolerance and love.

Sudras are worker class. They may not have Vedic knowledge or wealth, but they reach God by putting their work and performing their duties for sake of God.

Ajith: That is not the sole way for so called Surdras. The other paths are also viable.

However, the duties to Fight falls on shoulders of Kyastria. Their duties is to fight. The war had started on the Internet - Information and Knowledge is the weapon and the Net is the battleground (Kurushektra). Do not distrub the Kyastria in combat. Go and do your selected (by your own self) duties and reach God.

Ajith: Who do you fight for and who do you fight against ? Who is the enemy ? is that your dharma ? to fight on the internet ?

Is that sadhana for you ?

October 11, 2005

---Vaishnavas are merchant-class. Money makers and Wealth-seekers---

Vaishnavas are the one who worship Vishnu, similar to Saivas who worship Shiva and Sakthas who worship Shakti.

It is Vaishyas wo are merchant class.

October 11, 2005

Hari OM

Sorry to counter your well formed post.

There is nothing wrong in the caste system, and the differences can not be abolished. Even the religions which pull people away from Hinduism pointing out the caste system have their own "caste" system with one group killing/ burning down the places of worship of other group.

Even inscets like Bees have three castes- "Queen", "worker" and "solider", if all the bees want to be Queen then that colony would be destroyed very soon.

Also it is but a natural (even though undesirable) human mentality to think that their group is some how superior to another group, they should be educated to drop this idea. When one group tries to offend/injure other groups the government and law enforcements should restrain that group. War does not comes into picture until now.

But suppose if the government mechanism itself fails, then Hindus can engage in war for protecting their Dharma and let us hope and pray that this situation does not arise.

October 11, 2005

why do you always have some innane comments that try to degrade those that dont have your mindset. in my opinion, as a 23 year old youth from America, the 19 year old has a very good understanding. it may not be complete understanding of hinduism but who does have a complete understanding? none? myabe 1? 2 people in the entire world? maybe! to have a COMPLETE understanidng is to go past this materialistic world and truly conceptualize brahman. so in other words, everyone is on that search.

The Gita was given on a battlefield, but that doesnt downgrade hinduism's position as a peaceful tolerant religion. peace and tolerance are paramount to dharma. we must not fight at anything that brings up anger within our souls. it is our position to control that anger and be the mature person. but this also doesnt mean sit down and be cowardly. there is a fine line between the two but there IS a difference. Krishna also says in the Gita to fight only when all other options have been tried. First be diplomatic and peaceful and talk things thru, but if the evil persists then one must fight. Also one must use discretion to understand that the evil we choose to fight truly is evil and not just some aspect of society which we HIndus as a collective just dont like. if this aspect we dont like is not evil, then we should just learn to deal with it and tolerate their right to be here on earth.

as for the caste system, the way it is put down in the gita, is an ideal form. Whether such a form actually existed in India at one point or another is unknown to all that exist today and really shouldnt matter. who cares? what matters is not whether we can run around telling other people that we had a good ideal form back in the golden days and now other people have influenced and messed it up. purposely glorifying of the religion is what will be the downfall. it will lead to hypocrisy that will undermine everything we stand for.

what should worry people is the caste system today. it is completely unneccessary. to seperate groups based on work, or financial position or social position is wrong. we are ALL children of god. ALL of us!! we all receive the same amount of grace (i dont wanna say love, i dont believe god loves us - but thats a seperate topic) from god. all that seperates us is the amount of goodness we have, which we humans like to point out so as to bring distinctions between us and overplay some people or downplay others (perhaps as a way of overplaying themselves).

but all in all, the caste system should be abolished and forgotten. the only remnants of caste that are acceptable are the fact that brahmins are good, learned peaceful people. are all the people we clal brahmins this way? of corse not! so why all them brahmins? it should be based on charachter and personality, no on position and birth. is someone like steven hawkin a brahmin? i think so. i mean, i dont know exactly how "good" he is dharma wise but if he is, we should embrace the fact that there are people from other faiths who are also brahmin, by means of their virtue. when this type of caste system is brought to the forefront, we will naturally erode our memories of the horror that was caste oppression in india for the past 3000 years.

in the end, bhavchil i like your style. you seem to know alot more than many of the people who constantly post on this site about how wrong and un-hindu everyone else is (maybe its to confirm their own "hindueness" to themselves)

where in US r u from? im from New York. if your around my way, thats cool. maybe we could meet up and discuss things or something liek that.

in the end, bhavchil i like your style. you seem to know alot more than many of the people who constantly post on this site about how wrong and un-hindu everyone else is (maybe its to confirm their own "hindueness" to themselves)

where in US r u from? im from New York. if your around my way, thats cool. maybe we could meet up and discuss things or something liek that.

October 11, 2005

Let me ask one question to people who say we are puppets.

If we r puppets then how come corrupt version is man made(caste system) and original version is god made.

If everythign is gods act then y blame man kind for anything?

maadhav · October 12, 2005

assuming you are a hindu and not a hindu imposter,

you accept the authority of the Vedas.

Here is one of many verses from the Vedas.

This one is from Atharva veda.

-----------

vishhUcyetu kR^intatI pinAkamiva bibhrati.

vishhvak punarbhuvA manosamR^idhA aghAyavaH..## Av. 1.27.2 ##

Let the army carrying large bows, move in all the directions cutting down the enemy and raising the morale of the people all around. -Av. 1.27.2

============================

You talked about "all the paths to god".

These all paths mentioned in the vedic literature are all the vedic paths. It does not include the anti-vedic paths such as Islam and Xianity. please do not forget it, and remind it to others who may have forgotten it.

Sephiroth · October 12, 2005

Seph: Have you read and understood the whole Gita or are you the type who takes what s/he likes and dump the rest?

Why make that assumption ? You are deriding him

No, I'm asking him/her a question based on his/her own statement. S/he stated that s/he had only read part of the Gita (not full), so you statement that he is mature and have more understanding about Hindusm than the rest of you is LAUGHABLE.

Ajith:i am sure anyone who reads the Gita knows that. That is not explicit indication to fight muslims or others.

No, it is indication that Hindus should perform their duties properly. What are their duties? That is depends on their own Nature. And like what I said already - Kyastria's duty IS to fight, no matter what some other varnas says against them.

But how does that invalidate Bahvchil's view of tolerance and acceptance. Remember it was Krishna who asked for 5 villages. Krishna attempted his best or through his lila attempted peace. Peace was still the preferred choice. Lets not be selective in gathering information.

Sri Krishna asked for 5 Villages - was not given. He wasn't even given 5 houses, muchless Villages. In the end, what happened - Sri Krishna said - fight and take back what is rightfully yours (while still refraining from taking what isn't yours).

As you can see today - Christians and Muslims ARE still invading India, Muslims from North-west, and Christians from the South. Today, part of Kashmir is gone; tomorrow, maybe the whole Kashmir will go; and the day after that, North India and Invaders slowly work their way down.

Just as Sri Krishna begged for Pandavas, your children WILL be begging Muslims to live. Only problem here is, no one will fight for their rights like what Sri Krishna said and continued to beg at feet of this Parasites. That is the future for India if Hindus do not act.

Ajith: Krishna did NOT say it was the nature of man to fight, but the dharma of a kshatriya to protect and to fight and to surrender the fruits of the action.

Go and read your Gita properly before you call others Liar. Thank you. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ajith:Come on, don't exaggerate.He is only stating his views and what Hinduism means to him. Read the title.Just venting...

That's what I said, fool. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

S/he "fights" with his/her words for what s/he thinks is Hindusm, and others fights the same way against Muslims and Christians for that they believe is injustice toward India and Hindusm.

If s/he think s/he is correct in his/her action of venting out (for what s/he believes in), then we are correct in our attempt to "fight" injustice. If s/he feels her action is correct but ours is not (which is no difference actually), then s/he is a hypocrite. S/he thinks s/he has right to vent out but others do not.

A kshatriya's dharma is to protect and fighting is only a means to it as Krishna has chown by seeking peace initially.

There will be NO peace between Islamic and Christian people and non-Muslim/Christians. Check the history books and you will understand this.

Therefore, those who have Kystria's blood in their veins must gather together to protect and fight back. Internet is your battleground (chosen by God) - fight here with knowledge and wisdom. Time to fight in the real world have not come yet.

You are contradicting yourself. You said neither Krishna not God, (they are different ?) and God differentiated them .. That means it was God will since he created that differentiation for a purpose.

Hindus believe that Sri Krishna is an Avatar and worship Him such. Fine by me. I for one will worship the One Sri Krishna came from - the Source. That is my approach, so Yes, I do see them as separate.

And the person said Varna System is Sri krishna's will (s/he didn't say it was God's will). That is why I said it is wrong.

Corrupted Varna System already exists even the time Sri Krishna came to the world. Sri Krishna tried to correct it by stating the proper Nature (Gunas) of Man and their respective duties, but many humans still follow the corruptive Varna System. So, in the way - I do not blame Sri Krishna nor God (the Source), for Corrupted Varna System.

Ajith: The Gita has been used by many to justify the caste system and the misguided notion of superiority.

Nope, I have never heard of such incident before. Maybe some Gurus has in a small groups but majority still holds the Gita in a proper light.

Compassion does not mean cowardice. Tolerance is not cowardice. Respect and love is not cowardise.

Compassion should be given to those who are required Compassion. Tolerance to those who are err and wish to repent and Respect and Love to those who WILL RETURN the respect and love to you. Muslim AND Christians ARE NOT such people. It is your arrogant and cowardice ways that assume such. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

How can you be Compassionate to a group which was thought that they will go to Heaven and enjoy 72 virgins by KILLING you and descrate your temples?

How can you be Tolerant to actions of those who have no tolerance toward your rights?

How can you expect Love and Respect from those who have no Love for your Land and Respect for your beliefs?

Go and preach such to Muslims and Christians first and see what they say. Most likely, (if you are lucky) you will be laughed at. Unlucky - your head will be separated from your body. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Do you really know the person. A man's religion is between he and his God or Guru and no one else.

Then, why is s/he comes here and tell us not to fight because according to him/her, aur fighting is corrupting the essence of Hindusm. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

By right, we too can simply say - "Mind your own business" and continue to do whatever we like because our "religions" is between us and God also. Right? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Ajith:Nature of man is based on gunas which in turn determine his varna and dharma. It is not a birthright.

No one said it was.

Ajith: Who do you fight for and who do you fight against ? Who is the enemy ? is that your dharma ? to fight on the internet ?

Is that sadhana for you ?

I fight for myself (as it is my Duty - Dharma).

I fight for my children (so they could not need to go and beg for 5 houses from Muslims and Christians in the future).

No one is my enemy but my Self.

And it is better to fight in the Internet rather than in the real World. Time for that is yet to come.

What is Sadhana?

Sephiroth · October 12, 2005

If we r puppets then how come corrupt version is man made(caste system) and original version is god made.

If everythign is gods act then y blame man kind for anything?

Exactly where did you get notions that everything is God's act? From Advaitha? Muslim?

When I said we are Puppets, it means we are puppets which are controlled by Circumstance, Conditions of the World and Fate.

Like on Stage, doing act according to a Director's and Composer's guidance. Even so we know what to do and how to do it (act), sometimes, due to our own lack of interest, attachments and responsiblities and such, our performance is not to satisfactory level.

October 12, 2005

I got that everything is gods will from Bhagavadgita and many hindu scriptures..i dont think in Muslim religion they say that.infact in christianity and islam there is freewill to man if u really want to know it..i mightve not understood Bhagavadgeetha but do justify ur saying that we r puppets in a more detail manner and what role man plays and what role god plays and explain what krishna says when he says i do it all ur just a tool.If u know these explain or else say so?Dont question from where i got what?

October 12, 2005

compassion is something that should be given to all alike. from jesus to hitler. although hitler's position in history is one of evil and the actions which he performed were despicable and should never be repeated by anyone ever again, one should still understand that he is a human like you and me. a human who went wrong, took the wrong path and made the wrong decisions. although he made them out of his own free will knowing this is what he wanted to do, one must understand that his ignorance is what led him down the path of wrongdoing.

a wise man once said 'there is no evil, only ignorance.' we should feel compassion towards this man who is a sad individual and made many mistakes and feel sorry for all the wrong he has done. but hatred is not the answer. anger and hatred are two vices that should be avoided, for they will lead YOU to the path of wrong doing.

Ajith: The Gita has been used by many to justify the caste system and the misguided notion of superiority.

Nope, I have never heard of such incident before. Maybe some Gurus has in a small groups but majority still holds the Gita in a proper light.

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how can you believe you have a very well rounded knowledge of hinduism if you dont even know this basic fact. the Gita has been used as justification for the evils of the caste by people for hundreds of years. it is not by gurus sitting around with disciples as much as it is by kings and queens, village ciefs and rulers (Indian politics and politicians pre-independance) used to seperate castes along financial, social, professional lines in order to maintain one's own position within the system. High castes gave power and as the saying goes 'power corrupts....'

To ssay Muslims and Christians ARE NOT capable to living in peace and shouldnt be toleratd is anti-hindu to the extreme. there are many muslims and christians willing to live peacefully. its he missionaries and the politicains on tv making decisions and people that start up riots and communal violence take make some seem like all. all muslims and christians are not bad. your hatred towatrds them has made you one of them. you believe your way is the only way and theirs is useless and should be gotten rid of. please try to avoid being like those you hate so much.

October 12, 2005

If gettha doesnt support caste system then y didnt anyone support Karna for trying to prove his mettle and y is it considered a personal vendatta from Duryodana to have sided karna and not a great move?

What about Drona asking Eklavyas thumb?That wasnt considered evil act.

Bhagavadgeetha and Mahabaratha is the base for caste system,no one can deny that.

If Pandavas were punished for illtreating Karna or Krishna himself coming to his rescue during that insult then we might say Geetha was not into caste system

Sephiroth · October 13, 2005

I got that everything is gods will from Bhagavadgita and many hindu scriptures..

I don't remember reading anything like that. Mind putting the verse here?

God did give free will whether to choose to act or not act. But the events which will occur cannot be stopped. If Judgement Day is to come, it will come - that cannot be stopped. However, how fast it will come and how well we will be to stand in front of God during Judgement Day is up to us.

We can choose to live an improper life and stand as a poor excuse for human being (which claiming this is will of God that you have become such). OR you can choose to live a proper life and stand in front of God as testament to His Existence.

You choose - its your free will. But remember, You WILL stand before God and answer for your actions. No change in that.

Sephiroth · October 13, 2005

although hitler's position in history is one of evil and the actions which he performed were despicable and should never be repeated by anyone ever again, one should still understand that he is a human like you and me.

You do not know how it feels to watch your sister or brother taken away at any moment and you will never see them again.

You do not know how it feels to live your life, knowing that someone going to come and take you away (to the gas chambers) at any moment.

SO DO NOT preach to others who have seen such horrors on whether Hitler was a human being or not. As far as Jews consider, he was an animal - devil in disguise of human being. Even in Germany, no one dares to mention they are relative to Hitler or not for shame of what he did.

anger and hatred are two vices that should be avoided, for they will lead YOU to the path of wrong doing.

To fight back against fools who are ignorant is not sign that you are full of anger or hatred. Only fools will say "I'm showing Compassion" by being compassionate toward people who are ignorant.

Take your own children. If they are naught, you will scold them. If they continued being naught, you will scold them more. In the end, only way to break their bad habits is by putting them on your laps and whack them. Only then, ignorant children WILL learn the err of their ways.

Many Muslims in Malaysia do not condition their children in such way. Many Muslims believe that whatever attitude comes naturally to the child, it is God given and should be changed. That is why Muslim children in Malaysia, many of them do not know manners (there are good ones, I know) and many make fatal errors like being drug addicts and such.

You are ignorant by saying it is Compassionate. Ignorant will produce more ignorance.

the Gita has been used as justification for the evils of the caste by people for hundreds of years.

Like I said, I have not heard of such incident. Matter a fact, many of those who follow Corrupted Varna System attend to shy away from the Gita and used the Vedas instead.

To ssay Muslims and Christians ARE NOT capable to living in peace and shouldnt be toleratd is anti-hindu to the extreme. there are many muslims and christians willing to live peacefully.

Wrong.

Christians cannot live in peace BECAUSE many of the concepts like Hell for all (sinners), Karma and Reincarnation is not acceptable to them (because of Original Sin Concept).

As for Muslims - it is IMPOSSIBLE for Muslims to live in peace. Islam NEVER taught them such and they WILL NOT do such either.

Here's why. ALL Muslims are instructed to "preach" to non-Muslims and try to convert them - via marriage, scaring them about Hell and tempt them with Heaven, or simply riddicule them about beliefs. Muslims MUST do this because if they do not, then their God will not accept them as a good Muslim, according to their belief.

So, the "peaceful" ones which you claims are ones who have the "poison" within them (like snakes) while the "violent" ones like Osama are the ones who are spitting the "poisons" out. That's all the different there is. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

October 13, 2005

i understand that it is extremely hard emotionally and life-long scars develop from witnessing your brother or sister taken away forcibly from your home to die. not to excuse hitler, but this happens in almost every country. somtimes it is a political organization behind it, sometimes just regular people or mafias or something of that sort. but it happens. i dont wana sound heartless however, it definatley is a rotten habit and i wish i could pugre the world of such acts, but i am only one man.

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SO DO NOT preach to others who have seen such horrors on whether Hitler was a human being or not. As far as Jews consider, he was an animal - devil in disguise of human being. Even in Germany, no one dares to mention they are relative to Hitler or not for shame of what he did.

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Obviously, Hitler affects the Jews as a devil because of the actions he did, which from a Jewish sense can only be attributed to the likes of the devil. its the association of actions that link one living entity (Hitler) to a conceptual entity (devil). Its social stigmatization that makes one afriad to pronounce their relation to Hitler. But this doesnt change that he was still a human being born of flesh and blood like you and me and everyone else. One of god's children nonetheless, obvioulsy who erred and went totally erroneous. Was it not Krishna that said that even the greatest of sins will be forgiven if one places their devotion in God? this means, had Hitler truly reprented, he could have seen saved and God would have loved him none the less.

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To fight back against fools who are ignorant is not sign that you are full of anger or hatred.

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it is if you let your anger towards them drive your deisre to fight back. it is if you let your hatred blind you from seeing the good in others, especially those you hate.

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Take your own children. If they are naught, you will scold them. If they continued being naught, you will scold them more. In the end, only way to break their bad habits is by putting them on your laps and whack them. Only then, ignorant children WILL learn the err of their ways.

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if that is the only way, then you give up too easily. you resort to the method that makes it easier for you to rid the child of problems. But you have not TAUGHT the child what is wrong and why it is wrong. You have only CONDITIONED the child not to do it again for fear of repercussions. Whats going to happen once the child no longer fears those repercussions (as in he gets older)? Then the child, who still hasnt learned the true difference will continue to err because they never learned and no longer fear.

Beating a child to change him is not the rght way, it may be the easier way, but didnt someone ocne say its better to take the harder path than the easier?

The Gita has been used not because it has verses that support the corrupted caste ssytem, but because it supports the caste system itself. People use this support from the Gita for the existance of A caste system to support the existance of the current caste system, which is obviously coprrupted. This has been done for quite some time now. Im surprised it has never occured to you.

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Christians cannot live in peace BECAUSE many of the concepts like Hell for all (sinners), Karma and Reincarnation is not acceptable to them (because of Original Sin Concept).

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They CAN live in peace, they choose to argue over concepts because that has been their history. In one sense, its not totally the fault of the Christian people as much as it of Christian society. People are a product of their environemtn. Christian environment throughout history has been one of war, conversion and control. Unfortunately, this, along with specific regional societies/environemnts in differetn countries, has lead Christians in different places to be different yet still retain many of the same feelings. India's history with Christians is what has lead many Indians to have the feelings they have towards CHrsitianity and Islam as well.

They can live in peace, if one tried. IF christians, especialyl western christians, werent so worried about having one homogenized civilization on Earth, then we can all live in peace through diversity of cultures and beliefs. Until then, there will continue to be fighting and arguements.

-

As for Muslims - it is IMPOSSIBLE for Muslims to live in peace. Islam NEVER taught them such and they WILL NOT do such either.

Here's why. ALL Muslims are instructed to "preach" to non-Muslims and try to convert them - via marriage, scaring them about Hell and tempt them with Heaven, or simply riddicule them about beliefs. Muslims MUST do this because if they do not, then their God will not accept them as a good Muslim, according to their belief.

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Unfortunately, the same applies to Islam. Islam is almost a polarity, along with Christianity, in the sense that one went north wioth the idea of homogenizing civilization under Christ and the other east and southwest with the hope of homogenizing culture under Allah. Both religions must understand that cultures must live together, differnet yet in peace. This is the epitome of Hindu civilizaiton, the ability to have conflicting beliefs and yet live in peace, working out difference through debate and intelligence rather than brute force and fighting.

To go off topic, i believe a change has to occur within Islam for this futuristic hope of non-Islamic people to occur. And for the "terrorists" to stop. Bush and Blair are not gonna stop them. No way, these people are fighting for their religion, their culture, their god, their way of life, their beliefs, their people, their everything, their life and the right to it. They are willing to die for it. One must understand that by trying to go into another country and try to control it, you will not be able to squueze out all the problems. Islam has to make the change, Muslims have to oust the fundamentalists from society and ostracize them for the betterment of the world, peace and allah. Only when Muslims start acting as a community by stigmatizing those that go to extreme lenghts to get their point accross, will the "terrorists" stop.

Similarly, for Muslims to make a change, we have to keep voicing our opinions, but we must also undertsand that it WILL take an internal force along with an external force to make the change.

October 13, 2005

Sephiroth

U havent answered my posting regarding caste system..i might register soon..but i prefer being a Guest..appreciate all replies though..

Sephiroth · October 14, 2005

i understand that it is extremely hard emotionally and life-long scars develop from witnessing your brother or sister taken away forcibly from your home to die.

You understand nothing. It is foolish people who sit at home comfortably and see this sort of things who will say they understand how it feels. Such people are hypocrites. You know NOTHING.

i dont wana sound heartless however, it definatley is a rotten habit and i wish i could pugre the world of such acts, but i am only one man.

I don't want to sound heartless as well but I pray to God and wish HE will purge world of such people and hypocrites. I wish the world will be cleanse of hypocrites, Muslims, Christians and atheists alike.

One of god's children nonetheless, obvioulsy who erred and went totally erroneous. Was it not Krishna that said that even the greatest of sins will be forgiven if one places their devotion in God? this means, had Hitler truly reprented, he could have seen saved and God would have loved him none the less.

Here's history lesson for you - Hitler commited SUICIDE in a barret in Germany.

And both Judaism and Hindusm (in Garuda Purana) stated those who commit suicide have to report themselves to Yama Dharma (in Yamaloka). So, guess where's Hitler now? Guess what he is going now?

Also, both Judaism and Hindusm believes in Reincarnation, so, mostly like that Hitler will cease to be a human after this lifetime and become something else. A demon perhaps, fits him perfectly.

it is if you let your anger towards them drive your deisre to fight back. it is if you let your hatred blind you from seeing the good in others, especially those you hate.

What is the good in others IF others do not use it?

A thief maybe kind-hearted, but if he steals because of his greed, his kind-hearted attitude CANNOT be made as an excuse for his actions.

A man could be hard-working and intelligence, but if he is lustful and uses his money to indulge with women, then his good quality (hard-working and intelligence) is useless and cannot be used as excuse for his actions.

Same here ... Muslims maybe good, but their teachings and religion is not. Therefore, their good nature cannot be made excuses for overlooking their barbaric teachings and religions.

But you have not TAUGHT the child what is wrong and why it is wrong.

This is another form of "fear of repercussions" - a mental kind.

You can tell your children you shouldn't drink alcholol and they could listen out of fear of upsetting you. But when they grow older, they will still experiment with it and do it. Nothing changed.

Beating a child to change him is not the rght way, it may be the easier way, but didnt someone ocne say its better to take the harder path than the easier?

Wrong ... there is nothing easy about beating a child you love. It is easier to say this is wrong and that is wrong and scold him with words, hoping he will not do it. And in most times, beating comes as last resort after scolding do not work.

The Gita has been used not because it has verses that support the corrupted caste ssytem, but because it supports the caste system itself.

Like I said already, there is no instance or verse to support the Corrupted Varna System in the Gita. You say otherwise, proof it. It never occurred to me because it doesn't exist. Proof of its existence is in your shoulders.

They can live in peace, if one tried.

They had 2,000 years to try. They failed. Time to eradicate them.

Both religions must understand that cultures must live together, differnet yet in peace.

Wrong ... Islam understands NOTHING. In each countries which Islam took root, their culture disappears and Arabic culture appears. It's people becomes cultureless, heritageless, ill-mannered like those Arabs and there is NO peace in such land.

Such fate awaits India if nothing is done. Islam had its chance for peace for the past 1,400 years. It's bloody history shows that Islam or Muslims never made any progress toward peace. It is about time the World is cleanse of Abrahamic religions, starting in the Internet.

No way, these people are fighting for their religion, their culture, their god, their way of life, their beliefs, their people, their everything, their life and the right to it.

Wrong. You romantize this barbarians with such words. Simply put, they only have TWO reasons to fight :

1. Fear of damnation - both in the grave and later in hell.

2. To get into skirts of Apsaras.

In another words, they sending us to hell so they could reach Heaven. Nothing so great as if they are fighting for anything good.

Similarly, for Muslims to make a change, we have to keep voicing our opinions, but we must also undertsand that it WILL take an internal force along with an external force to make the change.

WHO gives a damn whether Muslims change or not. Let's just make this world Islam-less. What do we owe this parasites that we need to cut them any slacks?

October 17, 2005

I dont understand how you can come a site an call yourself a hindu by bashing christians and muslims, calling for their eradication. that is very un-hindu. it seems many modern 'hindus' would rather opt for a loyalty to hinduism over truth. i choose the latter, and if blind loytalty is the measure of hinduism, then i dont want to be hindu.

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You understand nothing. It is foolish people who sit at home comfortably and see this sort of things who will say they understand how it feels. Such people are hypocrites. You know NOTHING.

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i didnt say i understand HOW it feels, i dont. it has never happened to me, so i couldnt possibly fathom it at it's truest level. but i am a psychology student so i can definatly understand that those experiences defiantely bring out those emotions in people. but let me ask you, has it ever happened to u?

it is not heartless to want God to purge the world of evil, it is heartless to just call all christians and muslims as evil and call for their eraddication as well. very intolerant of you.

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Here's history lesson for you - Hitler commited SUICIDE in a barret in Germany.

And both Judaism and Hindusm (in Garuda Purana) stated those who commit suicide have to report themselves to Yama Dharma (in Yamaloka). So, guess where's Hitler now? Guess what he is going now?\

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your history lesson is not lost on me, of corse i have heard that hitler committed suicide. i never said that hitler was in heavan or anything like that. hitler committed many sins and will have to pay for his acitons. all i said was that it was possible to repent even if one is like hitler. Either way, who knows? hitler may have genuinly appologized to god and repented right before he killed himself and may be in a better position that we imagine. Again, dont take this last statement out of context (i anticipate many probably will). I am NOT saying taht Hitler is in heavan. Merely that if Hitler did repent, that is between him and God and we have no way of ever knowing. But human desire for closure leads us to postulate and believe in things that we know not of.

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A thief maybe kind-hearted, but if he steals because of his greed, his kind-hearted attitude CANNOT be made as an excuse for his actions.

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it is true that one cannot use their good traits to justify their bad ones. thats logic. i never said that either. i merely said we should see the good in people as well as the bad that we so naturally seek out. in your example, i believe you mean that we shouldnt like kind-hearted theifs because at the end of the day, he is a theif. while you are right, you fail to acknowledge that at the end of the day, he must still be kind-hearted. if not, he couldnt have been a 'kind-hearted' thief to begin with.

I also never said we should overlook their barbaric history. I did say that we shouldnt seek to do to them what they did to us, because we would be no better than them. Erasing Islam from the world is not the answer, erasing the impurities of it is. In that same logic, one can say we must eradicate hinduism from Earth because they used to practice sati. It is not the religion as a whole that needs to be purged, but the bad aspects of it.

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You can tell your children you shouldn't drink alcholol and they could listen out of fear of upsetting you. But when they grow older, they will still experiment with it and do it. Nothing changed.

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this is exactly what i said. you disagree with my statement and then support your disagreement with a statement that mirrors my own. What i had said was exactly what you just said in the above passage. By hitting a child, we may teach him to "fear repercussions" but we havent TAUGHT the child. When they get older, the repercussions are no longer there or relevant, so they will experiemnt. nothing has changed.

You are right that there is nothing easy about beating a child you love, but not everyone who beats their children, loves their children on this same level that you speak of. Many are upset with their children and many are upset with themselves. Somtimes, to some people, beating their child is not the last resort. Especially to those people that do it alot. It becomes routine and more often than not is the first option to them.

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Me: The Gita has been used not because it has verses that support the corrupted caste sytem, but because it supports the caste system itself.

Seph: Like I said already, there is no instance or verse to support the Corrupted Varna System in the Gita. You say otherwise, proof it. It never occurred to me because it doesn't exist. Proof of its existence is in your shoulders.

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This is the second time now that you have merely repeated what i said and tried to pass it off as if i said something wrong. I never said that the Gita had a justification for the caste system as it is practiced. This is the third time im saying this. what i said was that many use the Gita, for the name and dialogical value of the text, to support the continued existance of a caste system that is far corrupted from what is actually in the book. If you do not understand this, please let me know so i can try to clarify it some more. In conclusion ->

1. The gita doesnt support the caste system as it is practiced in India today

2. The Gita DOES support a theoretical caste system based on virtue.

3. Corrupted people use the name of the Gita to justify the existance of this practiced caste system to the masses, who may include the uneducated and the ignorant.

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They had 2,000 years to try. They failed. Time to eradicate them

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This is the most absurd thing i have ever heard anyone say at any site. Now i have heard absurd things before, but not in a forum where logical debate is the name of the game. Thats as paramount to saying that India has been subdued by foreighnors who plundered and raped our country of its welath for 1300 years, and since we had 1300 yers to better ourselves and our position in India as well as the world, we didnt, so therefore eradicate the Indians or we might as well be slaves. We had our chance, it didnt work, so lets get rid of it all together.

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Wrong ... Islam understands NOTHING. In each countries which Islam took root, their culture disappears and Arabic culture appears. It's people becomes cultureless, heritageless, ill-mannered like those Arabs and there is NO peace in such land.

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It seems you are too stubborn to accept any changes otehr than the rigid Hindu changes you would liek to see happen, so in a sense, it seems you undertsand Nothing - nothing else but your own preconceived notions. While it is true that the culture of countries changes as Islam enters, the same can be said of any country in which majority Christian. And that doesnt mean they no longer have any culture, it just means the culture changes to a DIFFERENT one.

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You romantize this barbarians with such words. Simply put, they only have TWO reasons to fight :

1. Fear of damnation - both in the grave and later in hell.

2. To get into skirts of Apsaras.

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I my friend am man enough to admit when others are right. In this case, i believe you are somewhat right, in the sense that i do romantasize them with those words. But i have been doing alot of research on religious violence this semester and it seems to me, taht throughout history religious conflicts are more about economic reasons that religion, but are veiled in rleigion in order to get the support of the masses. THis is true of almost every religious conflict from the Crusades to the Hindu-Muslim conflicts of today to the Islamic terrorists. The terrorists of today attack major areas for economic reasons and then veil it in religion, building support from the masses. When the support builds, many clouded individuals who start believing it, mimic actions while not having same intentions. It is they who blow up cars in the name of Allah and Islam and Islamic orgnaizations because of getting caught up in Islamic propaganda. Then they get notoreity as religious violence and the masses of the opposing culture view it as an attack from an 'other' religion against the home culture.

even the original islamic invasion of india is seen by many historians, especially economic historians, as based solely in the Middle eastern desire to be part of the heavily flourishing India/Rome trade. When the trade started, it was land based through the middle east, but as Rome became more powerful, they were able to do it from the sea, cutting out the middle east middle man. This added on to the fact that Islam as a religion was a social response to the established religion of conversion, Christianty, which took up a cause under one prophet and gained a vast land as its new land in Europe. Islam was seen as the response to a group's desire for a prophet of their own and a vast land to claim for themselves. These two factors are what led to the Islamic invasions of India rather than what is generally "known" as the Muslims didnt like India. They went into India because peaceful Indians offerred little resistance and had immense amounts of wealth and offered vast lands for the new Islamic religion to spread to.

Dont always belive that religious violence is caused by a peope who believe that killing another group will get them into heavan. While many in the violence may believe this, the violence itself is started for political/economic reasons.

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WHO gives a damn whether Muslims change or not. Let's just make this world Islam-less. What do we owe this parasites that we need to cut them any slacks

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I care because Muslim or not they are related to me. We are all brothers and sisters. All of the same race, same species. We all deserve the god-given right to better ourselves. Thats why i care whether the Muslims become better muslims. I dont want to make it Islam-less, only evil-less. To me, they are not the same thing. We owe them because we try to better Hindus who have false understandings, why should we not try to teah our muslim brothers and sisters who have false understanding?

October 17, 2005

1. What exactly does Sephiroth mean?

2. How did you get my replies in bold, i dont knw how to do that.

Sephiroth · October 17, 2005

i choose the latter, and if blind loytalty is the measure of hinduism, then i dont want to be hindu.

Then you should call yourself whatever you like but NOT as Hindu (since you are not loyal to Hindusm). Like Vaishnavas - they reject themselves from Hindusm but still preach the Gita.

... but i am a psychology student so i can definatly understand that those experiences defiantely bring out those emotions in people. but let me ask you, has it ever happened to u?

I really don't care what sort of student you are. People who are reading books about suffering have no idea on the suffering itself. And No, it has not happened to me and I'm fighting now so it WILL NOT happen again (including to Hindus).

it is not heartless to want God to purge the world of evil, it is heartless to just call all christians and muslims as evil and call for their eraddication as well. very intolerant of you.

Take it or leave it - they are evil which required to be purged of the Planet if Mankind to be saved. But then again, foolish people such as yourself cannot be asked to do anything properly for all you can do is talk about foolish love.

The Planet itself will eradicate the Muslims and Christians off the Planet, like what is happening in US and Pakistan. Only thing is, whether Hindus will suffer together or not, will determine by the Planet. Sad thing is ... because of gutless Hindus and people who proclaim themselves Hindus but do not do anything proper other than talk about Love, future generations will suffer.

all i said was that it was possible to repent even if one is like hitler.

Go and read Garuda Purana (one of the most celebrated Purana for both Shavitees and Viashnavas) before you can talk about Hitler repenting for anything. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Either way, who knows? hitler may have genuinly appologized to god and repented right before he killed himself and may be in a better position that we imagine.

Nonsense ... Repention and Seeking Forgiveness is what you MUST do before you die. This is true for both Hindusm and Judaism (and also Islam for that matter). After you die, you have NO hope of apologizing to anyone. And I don't think God will go against His words (to Man) by accepting repentance from a man who caused suffering to so many of His people.

while you are right, you fail to acknowledge that at the end of the day, he must still be kind-hearted. if not, he couldnt have been a 'kind-hearted' thief to begin with.

Kind hearted or fat-livered - makes NO difference. Fact remains - he unlawfully steals from others. Fact remains - he is guilty according to the Laws and Social Order and therefore should be punished.

Same goes for Puranas and God's Laws. It is set in the way (by our forefathers) so we could follow it to reach God. IF the society itself do not follow it properly, then what is the use of seeking God?

What is the use of having Morale? Laws and Order? What is use of preaching to your children about God if you yourself do not have responsibility to follow what you preach?

Having Love and Compassionate is Good, but that IS NOT an excuse for you to behave irresponsibly with Laws of God as stated in Puranas and Gita.

Erasing Islam from the world is not the answer, erasing the impurities of it is.

Wrong ... that is not our tasks. Our tasks is to live a proper live, NOT monitor whether others are living a proper life or not. In order to live a proper life, we must eradicate any and all influence which endangers our way of Life - which includes making war with Muslims and Christians if necessary. For now, that tasks can be done by flooding the Net with information on Hindusm.

In that same logic, one can say we must eradicate hinduism from Earth because they used to practice sati.

Don't be an idiot, can or not? Sati never the practise of Hindusm as Hindusm has spoken against it in various puranas. Sati is Rajput influence and now, it is Muslims who are doing it in name of Honor Killings. Go and get your facts straighten.

By hitting a child, we may teach him to "fear repercussions" but we havent TAUGHT the child. When they get older, the repercussions are no longer there or relevant, so they will experiemnt. nothing has changed.

Wrong. By using physical punishment, you can deter the child from doing it by giving him something to fear. However, by using mental recupersion, you will not do anything but to warn him. Fear of punishment will ensure that the child forgets the needs to do it for a long time.

Same way the society is held together by Laws and Order. By "threantening" the society members with punishment, the society keeps everyone in check and they can ensure that the society will run effciently. Physical punishment IS required and more effective than mental punishment.

Especially to those people that do it alot. It becomes routine and more often than not is the first option to them.

I'm not talking about Child Abuse here since it is not part of the topic. I'm talking about condition a child so he could be a good child. Understood.

I never said that the Gita had a justification for the caste system as it is practiced.

Good ... if you can understand that, then there is no need for futher discussion.

Thats as paramount to saying that India has been subdued by foreighnors who plundered and raped our country of its welath for 1300 years, and since we had 1300 yers to better ourselves and our position in India as well as the world, we didnt, so therefore eradicate the Indians or we might as well be slaves. We had our chance, it didnt work, so lets get rid of it all together.

Wrong ... you speak like a stupid Muslim. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Muhammad blames Jews for not giving the Laws of Moses to the Arabs and used that as plot to wage war against Jews and you use this excuse (that Hindus didn't make the world a better place). Wrong in both account.

Great Shiva Sages like Bhogar had travelled to China and to the Mayan Empires and gave Laws, Rituals, Calendars and many more. Buddhism flourished from India and went to China and Japan. Knowledge become common to all. What else did Hindus didn't do?

There is NO justifications of what Christians and Muslims did to the people of the Old Ways. NO JUSTIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER. Therefore, there is No justifications on WHY we SHOULDN'T eradicate them. Along the way, maybe we will eradicate a few traitors in our midst as well.

While it is true that the culture of countries changes as Islam enters, the same can be said of any country in which majority Christian. And that doesnt mean they no longer have any culture, it just means the culture changes to a DIFFERENT one.

It DID change to a different one. Understand?

In Europe, Europeans who lived according to the Laws of Nature are branded Pagans and Witches and hunted and destroyed for hundreds of years. Only till recently, Ancient Beliefs like the Wiccas reappears.

In US, the Red Americas were hurdle to a place called Reserviors where many Indians withered away and died. The entire culture rotted away.

In South America, Christians still have NOT answered for killing hundreds of thousands of Mayans and Incas and the entire culture and heritage disappeared - less than 10 years after Christians came.

In Africa, Christianity and Islam ensures the Old Ways died - and Africa died with it. India - you all know.

The terrorists of today attack major areas for economic reasons and then veil it in religion, building support from the masses. When the support builds, many clouded individuals who start believing it, mimic actions while not having same intentions.

Yes, true ... many of the Christian and Islamic invasions occurs because Christians and stupid Arabs are too wealth-minded. That brings back to my point - they wage war against us for our wealth. So, according to Puranas, who does this? The Arakans (Giants) does it. So, it is not the duty of each Hindus to get up and fight this demonic followers?

ANY religions which CANNOT stop its followers from attacking others for their wealth or anything else worldly, IS NOT worthy of been called God's Words. It is demonic beliefs which needs to be eradicated.

Dont always belive that religious violence is caused by a peope who believe that killing another group will get them into heavan. While many in the violence may believe this, the violence itself is started for political/economic reasons.

So why should we cut them any slacks, knowing this is the reasons for their actions? If they eager to go to Heaven, we should send them there. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I care because Muslim or not they are related to me.

Then you will become my enemy from now on. Have a nice day.

October 20, 2005

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Then you should call yourself whatever you like but NOT as Hindu (since you are not loyal to Hindusm). Like Vaishnavas - they reject themselves from Hindusm but still preach the Gita.

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i dont base my religion on loyalty to creed names and group affliation. i base it on truth. by letting loyalty to religious groups run your mindset, one becomes very sectarian, almost like competeing fraternities or children argueing over who's basketball team is the best. i dont argue with people who dont call themselves hindu becuase their religious name is different from mine. I argue over beliefs and true ethics. How exactly do Vaishnavas exclude themselves from Hinduism? and why shouldnt they preach the Gita? Its a Vaishnav creation.

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People who are reading books about suffering have no idea on the suffering itself.

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they do not and cannot have the same experience of suffering as one who goes through it, obviously. but i believe they have a better understanding that those (hint hint) that dont read about it nor have gone trough it. And if you dont have an understanding of it, then how can you know what you are trying to avoid?

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The Planet itself will eradicate the Muslims and Christians off the Planet, like what is happening in US and Pakistan. Only thing is, whether Hindus will suffer together or not, will determine by the Planet. Sad thing is ... because of gutless Hindus and people who proclaim themselves Hindus but do not do anything proper other than talk about Love, future generations will suffer.

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true hinduism preeaches love and tolerance for all paths of thought. not the hate that you preach to anyone who is not on the same path as yours. You seem to have a very narrow minded understanding of dharma. when i first talked to you about the Kurma avatar thing, you backed up your points well with logical statements (somewhat), yet now all you preach is intolerance and hate of anyone who is not hindu. how can this be good in any way?

Garuda Purana does not mention Hitler, i know that. But since you know the PUrana so well, please teach me what I need to know in order to relate it to Hitler's situation.

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Nonsense ... Repention and Seeking Forgiveness is what you MUST do before you die.

I don't think God will go against His words (to Man) by accepting repentance from a man who caused suffering to so many of His people.

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How do you KNOW that its nonsense? you are not god. you are not hitler. only those two know the conversation they may have had, if they had one at all. true, it was pure conjecture, yet you deny it outright as if you know for sure.

as for god accepting repentance, the Gita clearly says that god will acceptance any form of genuine repentance from anyone in any state. but karma is karma and the fruits one reaps, weather they be good or bad, will come back to haunt them.

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Same goes for Puranas and God's Laws. It is set in the way (by our forefathers) so we could follow it to reach God. IF the society itself do not follow it properly, then what is the use of seeking God?

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humans are always developing more and more, psychologically, materially, technologically, biologically. constantly changing to adapt to the environment and constantly progressing in terms of control of the environment. god's law remains the same during all this. our understanding of god and his laws changes in accordance with time and will continue to do so. so long as it doesnt change in a negative (adharmic) way, there is nothing wrong. we have not perfected our existance on earth. if so, we wouldnt be here.

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Having Love and Compassionate is Good, but that IS NOT an excuse for you to behave irresponsibly with Laws of God as stated in Puranas and Gita.

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for like the millionth time, you say this. what does this mean? how is love and compassion an excuse for irresponsibility? who told you it was that caused you to deny it so strongly and so often?

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Wrong ... that is not our tasks. Our tasks is to live a proper live, NOT monitor whether others are living a proper life or not. In order to live a proper life, we must eradicate any and all influence which endangers our way of Life - which includes making war with Muslims and Christians if necessary. For now, that tasks can be done by flooding the Net with information on Hindusm

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if your task is solely to live a proper life and not worry about others, then why worry about other hindus? let them live their lives their way and reach brahman their way and dont worry about if they live proper or not. if you care about hindus, you should care about all. true, you must eradicate anything that endangers a dharmic way of life, but you shouldnt provoke them to do so. only if they treaten you.

Should you kill the ex-con neighbor that lives next door because you believe he MAY pose a threat to your child? No. He has done nothing. The threat is one YOU perceive. dont jump the gun. Like you said, make war with Christians and Muslims IF NECCESSARY and only if its the last option to maintaining your peaceful existance.

as for flooding the net with hindu facts, trust me...i have seen many MANY sites that have absurd fundamentalist notions that over-glorify hinduism and serve no good purpose. they only pollute the minds of the children and the seakers into erroneous facts that have no basis in truth.

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By using physical punishment, you can deter the child from doing it by giving him something to fear. However, by using mental recupersion, you will not do anything but to warn him. Fear of punishment will ensure that the child forgets the needs to do it for a long time.

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mental repercussion may teach the child what not to do and why. you seem to picture children as idiots without minds of their own whom you as the parent must give a mind to. this is not true. children do have minds of their own and if one teaches them right from wrong and why the differnece is, then the child will learn and if he CHOOSES to do so (since all beings have the freedom of choice) he will choose good.

Wheras physical repercussions only cause fear within the child, but not the fear you believe it causes. it doesnt cause fear of the situation, it causes fear of the Parent. it is not the situation they avoid, it is the repercussions from the parent they try to avoid. what if the parent no longer becomes effective? then what will the child do? whats to stop him from avoiding the situation he never learned to avoid?

Fear of punishment will NOT "ensure" that the child forgets the need to do it. He will consiously avoid doing it in the parents presence or in any times that it may get back around to the parent. But that doesnt mean he will forget or avoid it in the absense of the repercussion.

Physical punishement is DEFINATLY NOT better than mental repercussions. It may deter the wrong doing and you as the parent dont have to worry about the child doing something, but what about the child? they will grow up fearing the parent, perhaps having a fearful outlook of the world at large if the one person they trust scares them. Psychologically, physical punishment is like a bad car accident. somtimes we walk away bruised up, other times we walk away never the same again. either way, there is always damage.

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Good ... if you can understand that, then there is no need for futher discussion.

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I'll be the bigger man and just drop this. Your circular reasoning exhibits your stubborness to admit when you are wrong. you say 'A' and I say 'B' then you say I am wrong because 'B' is the right way. THen i say tahts what i said. and you say good, since you understand it there is no need for further discussion. Thanks for telling me what I told you.

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Wrong ... you speak like a stupid Muslim.

Great Shiva Sages like Bhogar had travelled to China and to the Mayan Empires and gave Laws, Rituals, Calendars and many more. Buddhism flourished from India and went to China and Japan. Knowledge become common to all. What else did Hindus didn't do?

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You sound like a stupid Hindu, one whos self esteem is low and cultural identity is used as an outlet to blow off steam. By raising the bar of the culture you identity with, you try to raise the bar on your self esteem. It makes you feel better to believe that your race and your people and your religion did everything great.

While we Indians did send our influences into China and Japan, infact Buddhism spread all over Asia and had strong pockets as far as Armenia and Egypt during the early Christian era, there is also much knowledge and influence that the Chinese gave us. It was not a one way road. They are just as smart in their own right.

As for the Mayans, cmon. now whos being an idiot? dont follow stupid propaganda used by elites in power to rile up the hindu population and fed by certain people who seek to glorify our religion beyond everything else and believed by many who see a happiness issue within it.

There are controversial theories on early Indonesians having reached the Mexican coast very early, almost during the time of Christ. But no Indians. We didnt teach the Mayans anything. They taught themselves, probably. Even if they were indonesian. they taught themsevles in Mexico.

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Europe, US, South America, Africa....

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While what you say is true of Euros, Native American culture is not dead and neither is African. They are being rstricted and not put in the spotlight as much so they are in a sense, put on the back burner. Native Americans and South Americans are not apologized to on an appropriate level because the US govt or the South American govts (which are run mostly by Euro descended Spaniards) do not want to give up what they have.

The US owes the Shoshonee Native Americans of Nevada almost 24 million acres of land. They stole it. Now the indians are fighting back and they get nothing. They are offered chump change to share with everyone, extorted to give up their culture. THeres nothin they can do because they lack the legal resources, the military power and the media influence. I dont know if people outside the US sees this. Especially in India, everything i hear is that Indians love the US, they love America.

my message is - Stop being used!!!

America doesnt love you. They see India as an outlet for smart cheap labor, so they can make more money for themselves and get efficient work done. They only give India things as long as India complies with what the US wants. Most of which is greedy capitalism aimed at maintaining control over the world's resources. Why do you think we are in Iraq? to set up democracy? HELL NO!!! we need oil in order for the people in America and Europe to have larger incomes year by year. Thats why we are there. We dont give a . about Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan or any others. We only care about American ways. As long as people remain complacent, were happy. Once they stand up to it, we will shut them down, degrade their culture publicly to influence others to agree with us and keep our needs priority number one. I like the lifestyle of America but not the political aims.

But back to the point.....

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So why should we cut them any slacks, knowing this is the reasons for their actions? If they eager to go to Heaven, we should send them there

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We should cut Muslims slack becauwe they are not evil. i forgot who it was, but some sage said 'there is no such thing as evil, only ignorance.' and that is what bad muslims are, ignorant. not stupid. not evil. ignorant. how to stop ignorance? teaching. not killing. Killing itself is a form of ignorance. Attempting to end ignorance with ignorance only begets more ignorance.

Im sorry to hear that I am your "enemy" because Muslims are related to me. Dont you think you are going too far. Muslims are your relatives too. So are christians. So are Mayans. So are native MAericans. So are eskimos. We all are brothers and sisters, all children of God.

Sephiroth · October 20, 2005

I argue over beliefs and true ethics.

Wrong ... it is your beliefs and ethics which you try to preach and no one said your beliefs and ethics is suitable for others. What I argue is Hindusm beliefs and ethics (which included Shivaties and Vaishnavas).

... and why shouldnt they preach the Gita? Its a Vaishnav creation.

Wrong again, comments such as that is something I should expect from an atheists, NOT a Hindu. The Gita (as well as the Vedas) comes from Maha Vishnu (Vedas was given by Lord Brahma and presented by Maha Vishnu) to Manu. You don't believe that, then that is your problem. However, Vaishnavas have NO right to say the Gita "belongs" to them.

but i believe they have a better understanding that those (hint hint) that dont read about it nor have gone trough it.

They have NOTHING - no idea, no experience, no pain and no suffering.

true hinduism preeaches love and tolerance for all paths of thought.

Wrong ... True Hindusm preachs Duty and Sense of Responsibility. Love and Tolerance is Man-made concept to subdue Hindus from attacking Christians and Muslims when they invaded India. That is why Hindus, despite of following Hindusm, are suffering like Christians and Muslims - they are living an unVedic life by following the examples set by Christians and Muslims.

Garuda Purana does not mention Hitler, i know that. But since you know the PUrana so well, please teach me what I need to know in order to relate it to Hitler's situation.

Everyone who commited suicide will go to Hell where they will come in front of Yama Dharma and be judged. No optional. That is what is written in Garuda Purana and that is all you need to know.

How do you KNOW that its nonsense? you are not god.

Like I said before, God will NOT go against what He had told Man (according to the Laws). While God is beyond His Laws, this Laws is for Man (ALL, including Hitler) and I don't see why He have to bend the rules to entertain one animal.

ONLY Christian god could go against what he said before (in Old Testament) by sending Jesus to be sacrificed needlessly (in New Testament) and screw up the whole process. That is why Jews rejected Christianity - it is stupid beyond understanding.

as for god accepting repentance, the Gita clearly says that god will acceptance any form of genuine repentance from anyone in any state. but karma is karma and the fruits one reaps, weather they be good or bad, will come back to haunt them.

Yeah ... after the person get what he deserves in Hell (as stated in Garuda Purana).

god's law remains the same during all this. our understanding of god and his laws changes in accordance with time and will continue to do so. so long as it doesnt change in a negative (adharmic) way, there is nothing wrong. we have not perfected our existance on earth. if so, we wouldnt be here.

Wrong - God's Laws is same throughout the ages simply because Humans beings (emotionally and spiritually) remains the same.

However, Humans' understanding of God DO NOT remain the same. If you think like that, then there could not need Satya-Kali yuga cycle.

for like the millionth time, you say this. what does this mean? how is love and compassion an excuse for irresponsibility? who told you it was that caused you to deny it so strongly and so often?

In name of Love and Compassion, Hindus lived with Muslims and Christians in an untolerable manner - irresponsibly and without proper guidance.

They pushed aside Duty toward the Society with foolishn notion that as long as they pray and bribe God with sweets and all sort of things, God will over look their irresponsibility and asuric way of life. Hindus now are Muslim-incarnated. Only different between them and true Muslims are, this Hindus do not say Syahadat, circumstance and do not go to Mosque. Other than that, this Hindus live just as Muslims and Christian do.

[Note : I know some Hindus going to be upset with this statement but sit down and think first - you pray in your temple, do your rituals properly, celebrate your celebrations proper and all, and you even love your God and dieties. So WHY is India still in such a mess? Why is your religion been invaded every year? Why India seems to be getting weaker as if God had abandoned Her? I believe He abandoned Her because you have abandoned Him. Just as Jews had abandoned Him and take into practise as what the Egyptian Pharoahs did before the Liberation)]

if your task is solely to live a proper life and not worry about others, then why worry about other hindus?

This is an idiotic statement from an idiotic Anti-Hindu member. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I said I don't bother whether Muslims and Christians live or die, I never said I don't bother about Hindus, Buddhists or Jews. Muslims and Christians are NOT our relation, they are the enemies - just like YOU.

Like you said, make war with Christians and Muslims IF NECCESSARY and only if its the last option to maintaining your peaceful existance.

It is necessary when Muslims try split the country into smaller sub-Pakistans as they are doing in Kashmir. It is necessary when Christian country like US send men and resources to corrupt India every year. It is WAR - only Hindus are too lazy to get up to realize yet.

as for flooding the net with hindu facts, trust me...i have seen many MANY sites that have absurd fundamentalist notions that over-glorify hinduism and serve no good purpose. they only pollute the minds of the children and the seakers into erroneous facts that have no basis in truth.

You have seen NOTHING. All you ever cared about is LIES.

One single person cannot present Hindusm - Hindusm consists of Shivatees AND Vaishnavas, Buddhist principles and Jainism. One group or two groups has no authority to present Hindusm (like what ISCKON tries to do with the Gita). It is a group effect and the effect starts small and now. You see Lies, but your children will see the truth.

They taught themselves, probably.

Your guess works is as slim as your head. You choose not to believe that other religions (other than Christianity and Islam) actually did good, then it is your problem. Historical and Religious facts remains as proof.

We should cut Muslims slack becauwe they are not evil. i forgot who it was, but some sage said 'there is no such thing as evil, only ignorance.'

Whoever that sage maybe, he is DEAD. So is hundred of thousands of people in India who have done nothing wrong when Christians and Muslims invaded. So go tell them if Muslims and Christians are evil or not.

... and that is what bad muslims are, ignorant. not stupid. not evil. ignorant. how to stop ignorance? teaching. not killing. Killing itself is a form of ignorance. Attempting to end ignorance with ignorance only begets more ignorance.

Nope ... Killing is not ignorance, it is performing your Duty to your country. Sri Rama fought, Pasurama fought, Sri Krishna fought also, and even Lord Shiva fought sometimes. And when they didn't fight, they promote others to fight and defend Truth and Righteousness. Are you saying all this people/gods are IGNORANT?

Tolerance to Adharma is the greatest Intolerance you could commit - Bhavagad Gita (Dharma Yoga section).

Im sorry to hear that I am your "enemy" because Muslims are related to me. Dont you think you are going too far. ... We all are brothers and sisters, all children of God.

Don't be riddiculos. When comes to performing one's duty and responsiblity, there is no brothers or sisters in between.

If you are ignorant, I will teach you peacefully. If you continue being ignorant, I will ignore you. However, if your ignorant goes to a level where it corrupts others despite of the warning, I WILL fight you and you WILL lose.

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