Is afterlife belief reasonable?

[Samkhya 0]

What's the evidence for the existence of the afterlife? Are not there some arguments AGAINST the existence of the afterlife? For instance, according to Occam's principle, entities must not be multiplied without necessity. Therefore, why to postulate a soul when it is possible to explain mental events by brain processes alone?

 

But it seems that there is a field of enquiry which provides us with evidence for afterlife: parapsychology (psychical research).

[maadhav 0]

this is like asking:

is belief in the existance of the sun reasonable?

 

those who doubt krishna's word in gita

are far from the vedic way.

 

[Sephiroth 0]

You know, your signature - "Sâmkhya philosophy teaches how to get out of the hole." reminds me of an atheist I know from a website called Internet Atheist Org or something.

 

Anyway ... Laws of Physics states that Energy cannot be created or destroyed, ONLY changed for one form to another. Do you agree?

[Guest guest]

i agree with you Sephiroth

 

physics is a major key to understanding the truth of the universe and existance and life. as was mentioned earlier, energy cannot be creatd or destroyed, only changed. im not sure, please correct me if i am wrong, but is this also true of molecules or particles? is this the concept of the god particle, something that is inherent in every other molecule in existance?

 

now, although much of what i wrote in the first paragraph is not well understood by myself, if my understanding is somewhat well understood, that would in a sense be the physicality of brahman. as brahman exemplifies ALL that exists, his signature is in every particle.

 

now, on to the main question. what does this have to do with the afterlife? if the molecules that make up our bodies today were always in existance, each one forming combinations with other molecules to form other "things" in existance, then the same will happen after i die and my body decomposes. the molecules will not have a strong bond, will break apart and eventually form bonds with other molcules, creating new things.

 

in that sense, did my existance not have an afterlife? did the essense of my individuality, my identification with myself (what most people basically identify with a soul) not exist after my death in a new form?

[Sephiroth 0]

physics is a major key to understanding the truth of the universe and existance and life.

 

Take concept of Big Bang itself for example. At first, there was the energy alone - nothing else. Then the Big Bang occurred. From this violent action, other things formed as energy converted into matter and matter combined to form higher matter which took shape to the Universe today.

 

Take Helium for example. It is considered to the lightest matter in the world, even lighter than Hydrogen (someone correct me if I'm wrong here). But does it means that the 1st element was Helium? No, it was energy - pure and simple. Energy formed and bonded together to form Helium, Helium through action become Hydrogen, then bonding of two Hydrogen and a single Oxygen forms water and this goes on and one as one matter to another.

 

So, if Physical world itself can be shaped from "formless and undetermined source" of energy, then why not the rest of the universe also?

 

Science can formulate Multiple Universes and existence of other Galaxy which hold possibilities of intelligence beings now, but Sages already called them Lokas and Realms. So why can't a person, by meditating upon a single point (like a diety in that realm) be reborn in another place.

 

Also, consciousness of living in sin. If such thing as Soul do not exists, why do you have guilt? By right, you shouldn't have guilt even in an atheist society.

 

I believe this guilt will lead you (due to fear) to Hell Loka where you will be reborn and suffer accordingly, probably without even knowing why you are suffering in the first place.

[Samkhya 0]

««« You know, your signature - "Sâmkhya philosophy teaches how to get out of the hole." reminds me of an atheist I know from a website called Internet Atheist Org or something. »»»

 

It can't be me. I don't currently hang out on atheist forums.

 

However, I think I saw you on a Christian forum.

 

You say that energy does not disappear, but only undergoes transformations. But when I fall asleep, I lose consciousness, though in your view I have just undergone a change. The laws of nature, associated with my loss of consciousness, are not broken by my sleep.

 

And what if death was similar to sleep, a sleep without dreams and without awakening?

 

According to John Searle, consciousness is a feature of the brain, but at a higher level of description than neurons and synapses. But there is no law stating that "levels of descriptions" (and not: energy) can't disappear when the body undergoes changes.

 

Think about it: matter always remains, but organization can disappear. If consciousness requires organization to arise, then consciousness is dependent upon some states of matter and will perish when matter will lose its form.

[Samkhya 0]

I don't see what the relation is between the soul and guilt. The feeling of guilt may be an effet of our upbringing or even an evolutionary feature.

[Sephiroth 0]

by Samkhya

 

It can't be me. I don't currently hang out on atheist forums.

However, I think I saw you on a Christian forum.

 

Sephiroth is a name commonly used by Jews and non-Jewish forumers alike on the Internet. Even Japanese youths uses them in Japanese forums since it is name of one of the most celebrated character in the game (like my avatar).

 

You say that energy does not disappear, but only undergoes transformations. But when I fall asleep, I lose consciousness, though in your view I have just undergone a change. The laws of nature, associated with my loss of consciousness, are not broken by my sleep.

 

Unfortunately, you are not made of pure energy alone, you consists of pre-modified matter. Your heart is matter, your lungs, your brain also and such.

 

And you do not lost consciousness when you sleep. Your brain remains active but studies shows only small portions of the brain remains active while others rest. If you say you lose consciousness when you sleep, it is like saying you're an undead and you die everytime you fall asleep which is untrue (for non-Undeads anyway).

 

And what if death was similar to sleep, a sleep without dreams and without awakening?

 

True and false. In Sleep, you do not die for your brain remain active - so true. In Death, your brain closes down completely, so difference between Sleep and Death lies in the brain alone.

 

Meditation is one portion of "mimicking" Death. Monks meditate so they will not get shocked when Death comes and they could release themselves easily. Fear of Death is great for those who do not understand it.

 

Think about it: matter always remains, but organization can disappear. If consciousness requires organization to arise, then consciousness is dependent upon some states of matter and will perish when matter will lose its form.

 

Wrong ... "organization" of matter is simply breaking down and restructuring "bonds" between two or more atoms (of same elements or others) to form matter.

 

Example - Water. When water exist in solid form, it exists in liquid form (in room temperature). When heat applied to it, its molecules receive more energy and vibrates, breaking its own bonds and disperse - thus becomes stim. When its energy depletes, it forms again to form water and comes down as rain. When temperature falls down to a minus zero, water binds together for forms much solid form - Ice.

 

In this example, both matter and organization changes. Matter changes according to the energy it receives - stim when you heat it, Ice when you freeze it and water when the temperature is just right. And according to each restructuring of matter, the use of it also changes. Stim increase pressure, ice increases weight and water expands and promote lives.

 

In this example, ONLY things which doesn't change is pre-ordined energy. Just say Water is 2+1 (H2O). Just say for example - Energy which breaks down it's energy to another form (2+1-1), become something (Stim) and Energy which increases its energy (2+1+1) becomes something else (Ice).

 

Yes, you can say Water molecules can be broken down into Hdrogen and Oxygen. True ... like what you use for Hydrogen cars. In the end, the Oxygen you release will bound together with Hydrogen and form water again. So the cycle still repeats even so the cycle's rotation had increased.

 

I don't see what the relation is between the soul and guilt. The feeling of guilt may be an effet of our upbringing or even an evolutionary feature.

 

So, you are saying an Atheists (who don't believe in a soul) could kill without guilt. Or a Christian or a Muslim who do not believe in Hindusm could hurt a Hindu without sense of guilt. Is that right?

 

Sorry ... I don't think so. If this is true, you couldn't see so much atheists, Christians or Muslims trying to justify their actions with their beliefs, some even goes to extend of accusing others of hurting them when it is clearly a lie to hide their own guilt.

 

Take a Tiger and a Human being. A hungry tiger will strike down and kill a person if it is hungry enough without remorse. A human being will not, unless he or she really pushed toward it. Even then, the human being will justify his or her action as necessary. WHY?

 

Having guilt is sign you have consciousness. Having consciousness which cannot be shut down (even by drinking yourself to dead) shows that there is something in you which is related to your actions in your body. And since your matter always changed and your cells always in constant dead and rebirth mode, then whatever holds your consciousness is independant to your body and brain. We calls it a Soul.

[Guest guest]

There are so many parents who

A) do something to their child,

B) then feel guilty,

C) and then do what they want to SATISFY their guilt

 

This vicious circle keeps bringing the parents and child in the loop of repeating the A, B & C time and again. I think, Allowing A & B and then depriving C at all costs will make sure that it doesn't circle over again.

 

Parent-children was just an example. This applies to friends, couples, and even devotee and god. It's flat foolish ignorance to glorify 'C' as any measure of Love or god realization. It is love and it is like realization with conciousness if it were not to ever become a pattern. Try this tip....avoid saying sorry, be genuinely good by doing good (not yapping), and step out of such pattern.

 

Regarding Samkhya's topic of afterlife... In BG Krishna does speaks of it. Shankaracharya has not dwelled too much into it, nor have many other saints. It's received varying measures of importance.

 

For a person who has gotten the concept of formlessness and non-differentiatedness at the level of

1. conciousness (shiva) aspect

2. energy/matter (Shakthi) aspect

 

..for such a person, the only thing which remains is RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT NOW (Like it was for krishna and arjuna in the middle of the battlefield). A discussion of afterlife, is only a symptom of the awareness gap according to me.

 

[Guest guest]

guilt and consiousness have little to do with eachother. one is not a neccessary clause of the other.

 

guilt comes about due to upbringing. its based on our subjective understanding of morality (what is morally right and wrong) based on the society and upbringing which we have. it is not something inherently in each of us naturally. its due to society and the fact that we all have people that hold expectations of us and our desire to meet those expectations, a feeling which we develop in childhood and carry with us for the rest of our lives. sometimes our moral code changes as we experience new things, sometimes not.

 

but the reason people feel guilty about anything is only because we have mental conflicts, which create disonnance, about what we feel is the right thing to do and what we do in reality. its Freud's model of the id/ego/superego where the superego is our morality principle, the last aspect of our mind to form, since it takes time for children to learn what society and their parents specifically expect.

 

the ego is our reality principle, that which regulates what we will do.

 

when these two clash on opposite terms, we feel guilty. consiousness is something inherent for anythign that has awareness at all, regardless of feeling or emotion.

 

like you said, the tiger will feel no guilt for killing a human, but that doesnt mean it has no consiousness.

[Sephiroth 0]

There are so many parents who

 

A) do something to their child,

B) then feel guilty,

C) and then do what they want to SATISFY their guilt

 

This vicious circle keeps bringing the parents and child in the loop of repeating the A, B & C time and again. I think, Allowing A & B and then depriving C at all costs will make sure that it doesn't circle over again.

 

Unfortunately, the cycle DO repeats itself because you have forgotten one aspect - the child.

 

According to Researchers, a child who had grown up been abused by his/her parents WILL abuse his/her own children in return. So, the sin of the father is carried by the son and passed down to the grandchildren. If this is not bad karma been passed down, I don't know what is.

[Guest guest]

This thing you refer is the racket typically played in the excuse of "you are not giving me enough respect". Well, there are cases of extremes where we hear of connections of the child's behaviour to that of the arteries & health of the parents. This can also bring peer pressure, if there are brothers and sisters in the family who suck up & build up the pressure. Girls and guys are forced to agree with a match many a times for arranged marriage, using this techniques.

 

So it's all difficult. It's bad karma, as one pre-occupies onesleves to please the ego of parents and this can impact the capability to serve the society and his parents in the proper way. This will also lead to the bad karma as the person will raise kids with higher anxiety in society and thus they will want to take more from society than give.

[Sephiroth 0]

So it's all difficult. It's bad karma, as one pre-occupies onesleves to please the ego of parents and this can impact the capability to serve the society and his parents in the proper way. This will also lead to the bad karma as the person will raise kids with higher anxiety in society and thus they will want to take more from society than give.

 

That's my point. If a couple lives in such pressured lives and at the same time, almost everyone else lives in such way also, then the couple could easily say "This is natural, everyone doing it, so we are doing it as well" and goes on living in sense of ignorance. After all, ignorance is a bliss, like what they say.

 

Take America for example (Americans could be rolling in their sleep by now). In 1970s to 1990s, pre-marital sex is a trend among teenagers and adults alike. Movies and television, not to mention just about EVERY media in the existence, had promoted premarital sex as something healthy, natural and something boys and girls should go for to show their "love". To have sex means to "love" - literally in America. So, you can see that the entire society is corrupted by this ignorant views (from Eastern point of view).

 

So why did American teens now begin to move toward celibacy and willing to wait for marriage before experiementing with sex? What drove them? Why should they push for celibacy and willingness to wait for marriage rather than continue to be in state of ignorance?

 

Consciousness is one thing - they themselves knew that it was wrong. Trial and Error proved that sex before marriage is damaging, have NO Love Value to it and many time, the girls are dumped after the boys had their "fun", many times, it is after she gets pregnant.

 

Abortions is seen by the society as something horrible so those who are pregnant but don't want the child forced to abort, only to be hunted down by their own guilty consciousness.

 

All this shows that, despite of what the society potrays has "healthy" (like premarital sex during 1980 ~ 1990s), it is still up to the individual - consciousness and willing to follow that consciousness, to choose to do what they want.

 

Girls and guys are forced to agree with a match many a times for arranged marriage, using this techniques.

 

Can you say that many couples in Indian Societies lives in state of ignorance by marrying someone who he or she doesn't like and force to have family and restructure their own lives accordingly?

 

I don't believe that such life worth living. I too pressured by my mother to marry but I choose not to (YET - who knows). A lot of Japanese people do not marry till they are much older and well in financial situation and many of them remain a virgin till marriage.

[Samkhya 0]

««« Unfortunately, you are not made of pure energy alone, you consists of pre-modified matter. Your heart is matter, your lungs, your brain also and such. »»»

 

But is not matter a form of energy?

 

««« And you do not lost consciousness when you sleep. Your brain remains active but studies shows only small portions of the brain remains active while others rest. »»»

 

You assume that there is some consciousness as long as there is cerebral activity. But maybe consciousness arises only when there is a certain kind of cerebral activity.

 

The view that I lose consciousness when asleep is quite obvious, and the burden of proof is upon you.

 

««« If you say you lose consciousness when you sleep, it is like saying you're an undead and you die everytime you fall asleep which is untrue (for non-Undeads anyway). »»»

 

Your analogy fails because my vital functions does not stop when I sleep. But perhaps it is true to say that my Self is destroyed each night and is reborn each morning.

 

««« Wrong ... "organization" of matter is simply breaking down and restructuring "bonds" between two or more atoms (of same elements or others) to form matter. »»»

 

But there are things which are more organized than others, and perhaps a high level of organization is required for consciousness to arise. Organization does not disappear completely, but things may become less organized, as when I destroy a house.

 

««« So, you are saying an Atheists (who don't believe in a soul) could kill without guilt. Or a Christian or a Muslim who do not believe in Hindusm could hurt a Hindu without sense of guilt. Is that right? »»»

 

The feeling of guilt may be a social necessity, and therefore it is a good thing to impart it to children. There may be a biologically-rooted «openness» to the experience of guilt, and people decide that for their collective survival, they should encourage this experience, but it does not entail that the feeling of guilt is something supernatural.

 

««« And since your matter always changed and your cells always in constant dead and rebirth mode, then whatever holds your consciousness is independant to your body and brain. We calls it a Soul. »»»

 

This is an argument for the existence of a soul independently of the body. But take a flame which is burning on a torch. When the torch is worn out, we put the fire onto another torch. The fire has a continuous existence on the two successive torches, even if its cause is altogether replaced by another cause. So the mind may be caused by the body, even if the components of the body are constantly being replaced whereas the soul has a continuous existence.

 

 

[Sephiroth 0]

But is not matter a form of energy?

 

No ... energy is pure form. Matter is shaped, dimensioned form. Take the Sun for example. If you ask a Scientists, what is the source of energy which the Sun uses and they will say Helium, as it converts to Hdyrogen in a Fusion Reaction and release heat and light.

 

The question you ask whether matter is a form of energy or not is like asking whether Helium is a form of light or heat. You feel the heat and light from the sun, you do not feel the helium or the hydrogen of the Sun.

 

You assume that there is some consciousness as long as there is cerebral activity. But maybe consciousness arises only when there is a certain kind of cerebral activity.

 

If that is true, then you cannot possibly be dreaming. Dream should occur to a certain people alone while others shouldn't be getting it. WHY? Because not all cerebral activities are the same for everyone, yet 99% of humans do dream but most of them forgot their dreams when they awaken. Hell ... even cats and dogs dreams also.

 

Also, dreams could be irrevelant to your daily lives. Sins of your guilt shouldn't be shown in your dreams and torment you IF your consciousness is simply based on your own brain. There is no purpose for it.

 

Why should the brain show you your sins by tormenting you in your sleep? What is the purpose? It even goes AGAINST the very activity of sleeping where the brain shuts down most of its activity to rest but rest is not given IF dreams of torment is fill your dreams.

 

The view that I lose consciousness when asleep is quite obvious, and the burden of proof is upon you.

 

Wrong ... I do NOT need to proof what you say. According to my belief, stating you LOSE consciousness when you sleep is equal saying that you are a Vampire (an Undead) and you die everytime you go to bed. Sorry, I don't need to proof you are not an Undead. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Your analogy fails because my vital functions does not stop when I sleep. But perhaps it is true to say that my Self is destroyed each night and is reborn each morning.

 

Wrong again. If your Self if destroyed, then you will not have the same emotions you carried forth the night before. If you go to bed with anger, most likely you will wake up with the same anger the morning after. Nothing is destroyed. And we all know that the "Self" is just an illusion - an Ego. It doesn't exists.

 

And since you know your vital signs do not stop, it means you are not a Vampire, are you? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

But there are things which are more organized than others, and perhaps a high level of organization is required for consciousness to arise. Organization does not disappear completely, but things may become less organized, as when I destroy a house.

 

Yeah, and you can use the same bricks, doors, windows and furnitures to build or add onto another house. Restructuring occurs all the time in matter, one destruction of one matter (no matter how complex it is) doesn't mean that the elements will dispers in the air and vanish. That is against Laws of Nature. In same way is human soul. Just because your body falls and returns to Earth, your soul WILL remain - whether to be reborned or simply go to a higher plain.

 

The feeling of guilt may be a social necessity, and therefore it is a good thing to impart it to children. There may be a biologically-rooted «openness» to the experience of guilt, and people decide that for their collective survival, they should encourage this experience, but it does not entail that the feeling of guilt is something supernatural.

 

You have totally ignored my example of American Teens choosing celibacy over premarital sex and still holds to a foolish belief that guilt is social necesity.

 

As for Biologically-rooted based experience to guilt - NO proof exists. As I said before, the body constantly changes every day. Old cells die, new cells born, brain cells die but not replacement comes, hair falls, your skins dries and falls also. Everything about you changes.

 

So what is the use of having guilt to a past event biologically imprinted when the fact is biologically you always changes?

 

This is an argument for the existence of a soul independently of the body. But take a flame which is burning on a torch. When the torch is worn out, we put the fire onto another torch. The fire has a continuous existence on the two successive torches, even if its cause is altogether replaced by another cause. So the mind may be caused by the body, even if the components of the body are constantly being replaced whereas the soul has a continuous existence.

 

That is a wrong way to look at it. First of all - where did the flame of the 1st torch comes from? Someone lit it? Which means that someone used another torch to lit this one and you will use this torch to lit another.

 

This is example of Karma and the Mind, NOT existence (or none existence) of the soul. What do you past from one person to another? Your soul? No ... your karma and actions.

 

If I hit you, I have passed my actions to you. You can turn and hit another person (maybe because I'm too strong for you to fight) with the same anger you feel at me. The person you got hit feels the anger but toward you (not me) and turn and hit the person next to him and this continues.

 

In this example, the actions (whether it is a hit by physical blow or simply mumbling hatred) is different but the emotion which carried it (Anger) is the same. Same way, the torch is different but it carries the same fire as it lit another.

[Guest guest]

one does not "lose" consiousness when asleep in the same way that one looses consiousness when in a bad coma or such. the body is resting during sleep but the brain is still working. the reason that much of the brain rests also is because those parts are used for control of the body.

 

however, the brain is still consious and continues to input and process sensory information (such as things heard, dim lights caught by the closed eye, things touched by the hands while asleep, etc.) our brain continues to process these things and is aware of it while we sleep. those things get incorporated into dreams in order to keep us from waking. the two major theories of dreams is Freud's traditional and Crick's modern.

 

Freud says that dreams are unfulfilled desires that our ID has and come out during sleep. Howeever, these desires would cause us alot of pleasure and reaction, thus waking us up, so our brain veils the desires in symbolism in order to express the beliefs while still allowing the body to sleep.

 

Crick's theory is that dreams are an incorporative aspect of cognition. During the day, our eyes pick up of many many MANY things. However, our brain only focuses on some of them and the rest gets stored in the back of our mind. These "forgotten" things arent truly forgotten and must be taken out of the mind. This is where dreams come in - random activations of these "forgotten" things in order to input and process them. Once they are processed, they are forgotten. The sequence and content of dreams happens because we are still consious and when these totally random activactions of differnet things that have nothing to do with each other get activated, our consious brain puts it into a organizational sequence for the mind to understand.

 

so, it only seems like one is unconcious based on the degree of sleep (light sleep vs. deep sleep) that one is in. In reality, our body is asleep - our brain is not. its much like the myth that we only use 10 % of our brain at any given time. This is not true. In reality, one needs our memory to do almost everything nad we actually use about 70 % of our brain at any given time.

[Sephiroth 0]

one does not "lose" consiousness when asleep in the same way that one looses consiousness when in a bad coma or such. the body is resting during sleep but the brain is still working. the reason that much of the brain rests also is because those parts are used for control of the body.

 

I see a contradiction here. You say one do NOT lose consciousness when sleeping but say one loses consciousness when he or she in a coma. So, sleeping and coma cannot be the same thing.

 

Freud says that dreams are unfulfilled desires that our ID has and come out during sleep. Howeever, these desires would cause us alot of pleasure and reaction, thus waking us up, so our brain veils the desires in symbolism in order to express the beliefs while still allowing the body to sleep.

 

The theory doesn't fit nightmares, does it? You do not get a lot of pleasures from nightmares (unless it's dreams of Succubus). /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Crick's theory is that dreams are an incorporative aspect of cognition. During the day, our eyes pick up of many many MANY things. However, our brain only focuses on some of them and the rest gets stored in the back of our mind. These "forgotten" things arent truly forgotten and must be taken out of the mind. This is where dreams come in - random activations of these "forgotten" things in order to input and process them. Once they are processed, they are forgotten. The sequence and content of dreams happens because we are still consious and when these totally random activactions of differnet things that have nothing to do with each other get activated, our consious brain puts it into a organizational sequence for the mind to understand.

 

Problem here is, many of the Symbology which used by the brain to represent dreams sometimes are something which we are not associate with.

 

For example - flying without any aircraft. How many have flew before? I don't think many had flown before yet the same people have dreams of flying. And sinking, swimming, falling and etc.

 

In reality, our body is asleep - our brain is not.

 

That is not what Science says. Science says that part of the brain DO sleep by shutting down functions of the brain which is crucial during daytime. Only the important parts and some isolated parts remains functioning during the sleep time.

[Samkhya 0]

"""No ... energy is pure form."""

 

What does that mean?

 

"""If that is true, then you cannot possibly be dreaming. Dream should occur to a certain people alone while others shouldn't be getting it. WHY? Because not all cerebral activities are the same for everyone, yet 99% of humans do dream but most of them forgot their dreams when they awaken. Hell ... even cats and dogs dreams also."""

 

Cerebral activity undergoes changes during sleep after definite patterns, which allow dreams to occur after a time of loss of consciousness. Nothing supernatural about this.

 

""" Also, dreams could be irrevelant to your daily lives. Sins of your guilt shouldn't be shown in your dreams and torment you IF your consciousness is simply based on your own brain. There is no purpose for it.

 

Why should the brain show you your sins by tormenting you in your sleep? What is the purpose? It even goes AGAINST the very activity of sleeping where the brain shuts down most of its activity to rest but rest is not given IF dreams of torment is fill your dreams. """

 

My ethical principles are embodied in my brain. My brain is influenced by these principles when it invents dreams.

 

Besides, your understanding of sleep may be inaccurate if you say that in sleep, the brain "shuts down most of its activity to rest". There is presumably more to say.

 

""" According to my belief, stating you LOSE consciousness when you sleep is equal saying that you are a Vampire (an Undead) and you die everytime you go to bed. """

 

My consciousness is lost, but the conditions of existence of my consciousness remain, so that my consciousness can exist anew after sleep. What is more puzzling is the fact that I feel that experiences before sleep are MINE. It may be an argument for the existence of the Self in sleep.

 

""" Wrong again. If your Self if destroyed, then you will not have the same emotions you carried forth the night before. If you go to bed with anger, most likely you will wake up with the same anger the morning after. Nothing is destroyed. And we all know that the "Self" is just an illusion - an Ego. It doesn't exists. """

 

Perhaps my emotions are not carried by my self, but by my brain.

 

""" Yeah, and you can use the same bricks, doors, windows and furnitures to build or add onto another house. Restructuring occurs all the time in matter, one destruction of one matter (no matter how complex it is) doesn't mean that the elements will dispers in the air and vanish. That is against Laws of Nature. In same way is human soul. Just because your body falls and returns to Earth, your soul WILL remain - whether to be reborned or simply go to a higher plain. """

 

If my consciousness is a feature of a highly organized system, the brain, it will be lost when the system will turn into a less organized one.

 

""" where did the flame of the 1st torch comes from? Someone lit it? Which means that someone used another torch to lit this one and you will use this torch to lit another. """

 

Command, one can light a fire without another fire.

 

My example attempts to show that a phenomenon may be continuous even when its causes are changing. You say that since consciousness is continuous and brain is changing, brain can't be the cause of consciousness. But the fire analogy challenges such a reasoning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sephiroth 0]

"""No ... energy is pure form."""

What does that mean?

 

What do you think it means?

 

Cerebral activity undergoes changes during sleep after definite patterns, which allow dreams to occur after a time of loss of consciousness. Nothing supernatural about this.

 

I'm talking about the physical aspect of the Brain, you have limited your discussion to activities of the brain itself.

 

Yes, the activities of the brain is similar, but the individual brains themselves are NOT. So what is the use of discussing the activity of the brain if what it does it different to each person?

 

My ethical principles are embodied in my brain. My brain is influenced by these principles when it invents dreams.

 

Wrong ... your "ethics" embodied in your MIND and Mind is an illusion.

 

IF your ethics is embodied in your brain like you said it is, then you could still withhold yourself from drunk-driving, rape someone, insult someone in the face, fights or dance in obscene manner when under the influence of drugs and alcholol.

 

The very fact the your ethics fly out of the window the moment you are drunk shows that the brain, under the influence of chemicals could do things which you later identify as unethical.

 

Which means that chemical CAN override your brain, which is false. You may feel like flying out of the window like superman, but that will not change your physical capabilities and give you superpowers. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Besides, your understanding of sleep may be inaccurate if you say that in sleep, the brain "shuts down most of its activity to rest". There is presumably more to say.

 

I didn't say it, Science did by using MIR scanning which shows that portion of the brain DO sleep when you fall asleep.

 

My consciousness is lost, but the conditions of existence of my consciousness remain, so that my consciousness can exist anew after sleep. What is more puzzling is the fact that I feel that experiences before sleep are MINE. It may be an argument for the existence of the Self in sleep.

 

So what is this "conditions of existence of your consciousness" then?

 

As for your so-called experience before sleep as yours. Guess what, it is still considered yours after you wake up. Only this time, they will be your memories.

 

Perhaps my emotions are not carried by my self, but by my brain.

 

Of perhaps Emotions do not occur and do not need to be carried by anything. I give an example.

 

You riding on a bcycle by a hill side. Suddenly you fall and trimple down the hill. Your butt have been saved by a tree and a person who was passbying there help you. You go to bed and sleep.

 

When you wake up and recollect you experience, the fear which you feel when you tremble down the hill, the pain, the relief and gratefulness you feel toward the stranger who helped you and the relief to be able to come home will be reduce the next day compared to when you actually feeling it the day before, YET your experience and memories still fresh.

 

And as time passes, the emotions which associate with this experience WILL disappear but memories of the event will not. It will stay longer. So, this means your emotions are just extra baggages which you carry along and get dumped whenever you feel like it in your Ego or Mind.

 

If my consciousness is a feature of a highly organized system, the brain, it will be lost when the system will turn into a less organized one.

 

Why don't you give an example of your so-called "less organized system" which will scrample your consciousness? I cannot think of any.

 

Command, one can light a fire without another fire.

 

Nope ... fire WILL exist in heart of a person first. He will do the action and turn it an event which will past along - in the example, lightning a fire which non-existence anywhere else but in his heart (desire for warmth).

 

There must be a 1st course for everything. Things don't just pop out without a course. That doesn't make sense if it did.

 

My example attempts to show that a phenomenon may be continuous even when its causes are changing. You say that since consciousness is continuous and brain is changing, brain can't be the cause of consciousness. But the fire analogy challenges such a reasoning.

 

I never said Consciousness is continuous. I said Brain is changing. To me, the Consciousness and the brain has nothing to do with each other existence. Consciusness comes from the Soul, not the Brain.

[Samkhya 0]

"""Yes, the activities of the brain is similar, but the individual brains themselves are NOT. So what is the use of discussing the activity of the brain if what it does it different to each person?"""

 

If the activities of the brain were different to each persone, neuroscience would be impossible. Likewise, drug therapy would be impossible.

 

"""Wrong ... your "ethics" embodied in your MIND and Mind is an illusion.

 

IF your ethics is embodied in your brain like you said it is, then you could still withhold yourself from drunk-driving, rape someone, insult someone in the face, fights or dance in obscene manner when under the influence of drugs and alcholol.

 

The very fact the your ethics fly out of the window the moment you are drunk shows that the brain, under the influence of chemicals could do things which you later identify as unethical.

 

Which means that chemical CAN override your brain, which is false. You may feel like flying out of the window like superman, but that will not change your physical capabilities and give you superpowers. """

 

Mind and brain, perhaps only brain, are a field of battle between opposite forces, some pushing me to act immorally, others pushing me to resist. Under the influence of chemicals, one side gets stronger than the other and compels me to act that way.

 

"""I didn't say it, Science did by using MIR scanning which shows that portion of the brain DO sleep when you fall asleep."""

 

brain may do many things during sleep. Sleep may be more than one purpose.

 

"""Why don't you give an example of your so-called "less organized system" which will scrample your consciousness? I cannot think of any."""

 

The elements of a corpse. The corpse itself is not an unified system, but its elements are.

 

***

 

Your arguments are sometimes arguments from ignorance. You are leading me beyond what I know about the brain, and I can't reply to you in a scientific way, but there is no reason to suppose that the scientific answer cannot exist.

[Samkhya 0]

Besides, why to suppose a soul beyond consciousness? Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity. And why would mind be an illusion?

[Sephiroth 0]

If the activities of the brain were different to each persone, neuroscience would be impossible. Likewise, drug therapy would be impossible.

 

You can say Neuroscience IS about impossible right now. If your brain have dyfunction, it still need to be examined by MIR or CAT scans, consult doctors from various feels (including Psychologists) and only then, give medicine which COULD or COULDN'T solve your problem (no 100% gurantee here).

 

WHY? Because while everyone's brain works in similar method, their wiring is different and doctors and experts needs to study the wiring first before they can determine the problem.

 

Mind and brain, perhaps only brain, are a field of battle between opposite forces, some pushing me to act immorally, others pushing me to resist. Under the influence of chemicals, one side gets stronger than the other and compels me to act that way.

 

Wrong ... Mind don't exists in physical terms, there is no TWO opposite forces in your brain - just your brain and your mind (which you create yourself).

 

That is why the emotions you feel the night before you go to bed (in term of an experience) is non-existence (or tune down) the morning after you wake up even so the experience in full detail is very fresh in your mind. What died in each day is your Mind.

 

Therefore, Consciousness CANNOT be the mind or something else which is temporarily as the Mind. Some people's guilt can last a lifetime, haunting them in their nightmares and promoting them to do all sort of things. This means that Consciousness is something which is separate from the Mind and Body.

 

brain may do many things during sleep. Sleep may be more than one purpose.

 

May or may not ... that is not my concern. Till you back it up with scientific data that sleeping has more than one purpose (which is to rest), I have no obligations to believe in speculations.

 

The elements of a corpse. The corpse itself is not an unified system, but its elements are.

 

Dead people do not remember anything. Any brain which suffers break down of oxygen supplies for more than 7 minutes WILL show signs of permanent damage.

 

You should try harder in proving existence of your so-called "less organized system" before making statements. As for me, I could say there is no such thing.

 

Your arguments are sometimes arguments from ignorance. You are leading me beyond what I know about the brain, and I can't reply to you in a scientific way, but there is no reason to suppose that the scientific answer cannot exist.

 

Wrong ... it is NOT my fault if you don't know anything about the Brain yet speak as if you are a Ph.D in Neuroscience. Maybe you should have thought about that BEFORE opening a thread and ask about Afterlife. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Samkhya 0]

""" Dead people do not remember anything. Any brain which suffers break down of oxygen supplies for more than 7 minutes WILL show signs of permanent damage.

 

You should try harder in proving existence of your so-called "less organized system" before making statements. As for me, I could say there is no such thing. """

 

I don't understand why you speak of recollections? The concept of less organized systems turns around the levels of organization: atomic, molecular, cellular, organic, etc..

 

What I said is that consciousness may be a feature of a high level of organization, which is not eternal.

 

""" Wrong ... it is NOT my fault if you don't know anything about the Brain yet speak as if you are a Ph.D in Neuroscience. Maybe you should have thought about that BEFORE opening a thread and ask about Afterlife. """

 

Try to make your case in a scientific forum (and let me know where), if you are so sure of your views that you don't fear to be disproven. Your arguments are still arguments from ignorance.

 

[Sephiroth 0]

I don't understand why you speak of recollections? The concept of less organized systems turns around the levels of organization: atomic, molecular, cellular, organic, etc..

 

I asked for example of Less Organized system (as like an actual object) and you give NOTHING. This proof that you are not capable of proving anything you say. You are wasting my time.

 

What I said is that consciousness may be a feature of a high level of organization, which is not eternal.

 

Then you must provide example of the so-called high level organization or low-level organization. Can you provide us with this examples? I don't think so.

 

Try to make your case in a scientific forum (and let me know where), if you are so sure of your views that you don't fear to be disproven. Your arguments are still arguments from ignorance.

 

We are NOT in a scientific forum, we are in a religious forum. I could like to suggest you go and represent your case in an atheist forum where it belongs. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Samkhya 0]

A CELL is less organized than a body, which consists of a net of cells.

 

A MOLECULE is less organized than a cell.

 

RUINS are less organized than a house.