Some Points on Bhagavad-Gita

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Hari OM:

 

A brief about me: <who are not interested skip to next section>

 

I am an average intelligent person trying to figure out the relation between myself, the universe and god, and most importantly what should I do? I have acquired all my knowledge only by reading books (religious, philopshical, spirtiual and spiritual presented by scientists- like "Tao of Physiscs", communism and athestic).

 

One book that made a significant impact on me was "Dhaivatin Kurual" - 6 volumes by Kanchi Paramacharya. After reading the book the major thoughts that were running in me were:-

 

Question Section:

 

"What is this Univerese and why it was created?"

 

IF God created man to be obedient to him then has He failed in his mission (at least partially)

 

IF man has a free will and destiny and all his enjoyments and sufferings are determined by his actions alone (as stated in Gita), then what is the role of God?

 

IF as people suggest God helps his devotees only and only He makes some body as devotees by his powers, then He can be accussed on two counts- He favours only who praise him (like politicans) and he is partial that he does not make every body as his devotee.

 

(possible) Answer section:

 

Now I am reading Gita everyday and seem to have slightly understood some part of the above questions, by His Grace.

 

I think that what i (no more I) understood is significant and would like to share with the fellow travellers who seem to be struggling with more or less similar issues.

 

i will base all my points on Gita, i am not a enlightened person (yet) or a learned scholar, so i may not be entirely correct or able to convince you, however i would like to hear any valid counter arguments and would be thankful for correct and logical arguments.

 

Gita, in my opinion tells two major points:

 

1) We are responsible only for our actions, but not the results that occur due to it.

 

That is we may do a good action but can get a bad result from it and vice-versa (good and bad are relative term changes from person to person). The result is based on various factors (mainly 5 factors as stated in Gita), but God does not decide the result, it is nature alone that functions.

 

2) Man is always bound by his actions (both good and bad) and suffer (or enjoy) their consequences, except when done for His Command (or Will or Sake).

 

When man is not bound by his actions then he is called liberated.

 

After understanding these two points i had some very interesting and amazing thoughts.

 

After i got fully convicned, now i wanted to know what is God's command or Will, so that i can complete it and attain liberation.

 

Gita does not seem to state what is His Will for me, it just states His Will for Arjun, (i could not imagine the Lord commands me to take a bow and fight, if we take it literally).

 

Then i start searching other books to find out His Will for me (i.e., the general population). However i couldn't find any book in hinduism that states what is the God's Will , even though can read some kind of Do's and Don'ts but they are mostly for maintaing social order and does not promise liberation, the maximum promise they give is Heaven.

 

Most other religions have the God's will compiled in a book form, except Hinduism (and may be Buddhism).

 

 

Initial thought was that hinduism forgot to compile the God's will or those text were lost and i was very sad, but still kept on reading Gita.

 

Then one day it suddenly dawned on me, that God's will is not static, it is dynamic, differs for each person depending on his capacity and attitude, his past karma, his current state (kala, desa, vartamanam in tamil). And for each person also it can vary from time to time (for e.g., in Gita Gods command to Arjun was to fight, but He instructs Arjun to Kidnap and marry Subhadra some time earlier).

 

The only way then is to compile a book with billions or may be trillions of situations and one Command (because God's command must be THE BEST command for the given person, situation and circumstance). However even if we do this still man must make a decision of which situation in the given book is his situtation.

 

So i think God's will is different for different people at different time, AND IT IS REVEALED TO THAT PERSON AT THAT TIME.

 

The trick of this game is that there is also another entity called ego (you can also name it satan if you like), which tells you to DO some thing at that point of time, and there may be multiple voices from different sources telling you to DO different things.

 

He may tell one person to fight, one to Love, one to marry, one to mix in Brahamajyoti, one to become his devotee, one to become an artist, etc., and you find happiness (or bliss), only when you DO what He says you to do, other wise no happiness what ever great is your achivement.[ There is a story of a grieving king in Brahmaloka in Srimad Bhagavatam- that is a person even achieving the highest abode can still be unhappy]

 

The main use of this complex and advanced human intelligence is to figure out the God's voice from the sea of multiple voices, and Hinduism mainly teaches how to figure out this (it approves of 8 major ways-Janayoga, KarmaYoga, BhaktiYoga...) and Sri Krishan tells that the Best Path is KarmaYoga.

 

i think that Advaita means, one Voice without any other , and that one Voice is His voice, since it will never die and Krishna tells he is the disinterested friend of ALL (One view of Advaita is there are two centers- "ME" and "MINE" dropping one of them is Advaita and another view is that of a masculine (Shiva) and Feminine (Parvathi) energies merging into one, or the individual Soul (Jiva) merging with the final (Pramatma), or the seven layers of the human body merging into a single layer of consicussness) and when we reach that state where there is only His Voice then we are liberated, no more confusion or chaos, we just do his command ( we can also try to achieve one voice by killing His voice by ego, exactly Ravanna and other Asuras tried to do, but would fail invariably due to its own nature)

[Guest guest]

BG is about good actions & self realization.

 

Unlike the great vaishnavas or the great ISCONites, I don't believe that BG teaches you how to rag persistently the great lord krishna (thru a psuedo bakthy) so much that he gives-up on all spiritual advice to you & shows you that you will win the battle of life, and so you don't worry.

 

BG teaches actions that'll benefit society and nature and also provide self-realization at the individual level.

[Guest guest]

Please chant hare Krishna and be happy.

 

Whatever you do should be accompanied by chanting the holy name of Krishna or otherwise you will get only the result of your hard work but nothing else. So, Chanting of Hare Krishna mantra in this Kali yuga is the means to attain the eternal association of Krishna in the spiritual world.

 

Hari Hari bol.

 

Nitai

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

That is 100% right. I just saw this verse while looking at The Namamrta The Nectar of the Holy name site:

 

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is clearly stated that in this age of Kali the only successful performance of yajna, or sacrifice, is yajnaih sankirtana-prayaih: the best type of sacrifice is simply to chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. This yajna is offered before the form of Lord Caitanya, as other yajnas are offered before the form of Lord Visnu. These recommendations are found in the Eleventh Canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Moreover, this yajna performance confirms that Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Visnu Himself. As Lord Visnu appeared at the Daksa-yajna long, long ago, Lord Caitanya has appeared in this age to accept our sankirtana-yajna.

'Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.7.41

 

[Sephiroth 0]

Hmph ... are you a Muslim?

 

"What is this Univerese and why it was created?"

 

Answer - Read The Big Bang Theory. It has similar root to what is described in the Gita.

 

IF God created man to be obedient to him then has He failed in his mission (at least partially)

 

Wrong ... that is Muslim concept, that Man is created to be obedient to Him. In Hindusm (as far as I could understand), Man are created to live and find God on their own. There is no forcing for a person to believe in God when he has no reason to.

 

And besides, Hindus believe in reincarnation and the Gita said, if a devotee choose to believe in Him and take one steps toward Him, He will take a thousand steps to reach the devotee. Which means, if you fail to reach God in this lifetime, He will make it easy for you in the next. In the end, it all up to you to believe and go to Him. No forcing.

 

IF man has a free will and destiny and all his enjoyments and sufferings are determined by his actions alone (as stated in Gita), then what is the role of God?

 

God gives free will for man to know God or ignore Him and continue to indulge himself with enjoyment and attachments. As you may know, ALL enjoyment and attachments leads to suffering and make the person (with free will) miseable.

 

So, he has a choice to let go off his attachment and suffering by his own free will and choose God or continue to suffer in sea of attachment.

 

You're drowning in the sea of attachment and suffering ... God is the beach. He will not come to you if you do not choose to go to Him. That choice IS your free will.

 

IF as people suggest God helps his devotees only and only He makes some body as devotees by his powers, then He can be accussed on two counts- He favours only who praise him (like politicans) and he is partial that he does not make every body as his devotee.

 

This nonsense is Muslim concept, NOT Hindus'.

 

In Hindusm (and Buddhism for that matter), God is for all - believer and non-believers.

[Guest guest]

You're drowning in the sea of attachment and suffering ... God is the beach. He will not come to you if you do not choose to go to Him. That choice IS your free will.

 

 

 

that a very good comparison...i like it

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

No i am a Hindu by birth and nature.

 

You can see that all the three statements start with "IF" so they are not my opinion but just building a case.

 

i agree with you that the sense objects itself does not produce happiness or sadness , but it is our attachement to them (a sweet can make one person happy but other person vomit).

 

i also like your statement:

 

"You're drowning in the sea of attachment and suffering ... God is the beach. He will not come to you if you do not choose to go to Him. That choice IS your free will. "

 

But don't entirely agree with that.

 

Because there are few questions:

 

1) First of all why did i drown in that sea?

 

2) If God is seeing me drowning in the Sea, but choose to help me only if called (or I tried to reach the Shore], then he can't be regarded very mericful, since even a Patrol guard, will rush to help me if i am drowning without the need for me to call him.[ This again goes back to your argument, that God only helps selective people]

 

i would like to know your replies before posting further points.

 

 

 

[Sephiroth 0]

Will you people pls register ... Ahem ...

 

1) First of all why did i drown in that sea?

 

Why could anyone drown in the first place? Here's some answers :

 

1. Accidents like animal bite which lose your posture and make you drown, especially when you are a beginner in swiming. Happened to me. Can be avoid if you have a friend to help.

 

2. Overeating or tiredness.

3. lack of proper knowledge in swimming or didn't follow the instruction properly before going to dive.

 

In all three statement, you will see that you drown mostly because of your own fault.

 

So, logically speak, you drown because you are ignorant of the conditions of the actual world. Not knowing the true nature of the world and its attachments, you seeks to indulge yourself in it and in the end, fall too deep to be rescued by others. Fault is yours alone.

 

Take a person who smokes and drinks alcholol. Tell him it is a bad habit and he will say "I can stop ANYTIME I want" but never do.

 

WHY? Because to him, he do not care that smoking is bad for you and can cause cancer. IF tomorrow he do get cancer, whose fault is that? God?

 

2) If God is seeing me drowning in the Sea, but choose to help me only if called (or I tried to reach the Shore], then he can't be regarded very mericful, since even a Patrol guard, will rush to help me if i am drowning without the need for me to call him.[ This again goes back to your argument, that God only helps selective people]

 

Why don't God help you if He sees you drowning? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Your question is similar to a Greek Philospher named Epicurus (ca. 341-270 B.C.E.). He wrote :

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

-- Epicurus, quoted from a personal letter from [name withheld] to Cliff Walker, (July 9, 2001)

 

 

Answer is so simple. Assume God, as an all-knowing being knows you are going to drown, what does He do? Logically speaking, He could asked you not to go to the sea and jump into the water - Logical, Yes?

 

Question - Will you, who do not know whether you will drown or not, go to the sea?

 

Question - If you do go to the sea, whose fault it is then? God or yours for drowning?

 

Question - If you choose not to go, knowing the danger, then could you willing to put the urge of swimming out of your mind?

 

Question - If you were warned, listen but still choose to go and drown, whose fault is it then that you drown? God or yours?

 

Question - Even after drowning and been saved, will you go against to the sea, thinking you are wiser now that you know how powerful the wave is (but not how deep the darkness below is)?

 

If all this is your fault to begin with, then answer this - should you be the one who approach God for precaution from not drowing in sea of indulgement and suffering and not expect God to come and save your sorry butt everytime?

 

If all this is your fault from beginning, WHY must God be the one to come to YOU and save you everytimes?

 

Even if He did (and many times, He does), it still will not change your evil ways of jumping right back into the sea like some kid who don't know anything better.

[Subham 0]

Hi,

 

Now I have registered as per your request.

 

Your arguments are good, but we should understand that things are not as simple as they seem, as stated in Gita, "Things which appear like nectar at the beginning may end up as poision and things which appear like poison may end up as nectar"

 

So now my question is, why did God created the Sea if people would drown in that? or at least he could have created a shallow sea (similar to why He created an apple tree or he should have created it very tall that no man could reach it).

 

An alternate which i suggest is (please feel free to counter):

 

As per Hinduism, The life in earth is not drowning or suffering (alien concept). It is a happy place to enjoy.

 

However there are still happier places (more happiness for more duration) and we should try to reach those places, but which neccessarily does not mean that we should not enjoy this place or we are suffering in this place, there is no suffering anywhere in the universe created by our MERICIFUL God.

 

There is a story in a Purana which states that a man who is highly indulging in sex would take his next birth as Pig. But he takes birth as Pig not as punishment, because the maximum sexual urge can be realised only by Pigs, not possible in human body. And hence he becomes a Pig, completes his urge and then proceeds upward on his spiritual evolution.

 

All this eternal Hell, suffering, misery, etc., are alien concepts, and currently deeply getting embedded in our psychology.

 

We should break all these mental shackles and realise that God is "Sat-chit-ananda" and we are also same with nothing to suffer and nothing to fear or worry. [This concept was not made very much open earlier-please refer my article Polytheism-Good or Bad? to get more insight why it was not made more open]

 

 

 

 

[Nitairam 0]

Hare Krishna

 

It seems that your understanding of sastra is mixed with materialism. Moreover that you try to adjust your materialistic enjoying mentality with some word-jugglery and partial scriptural understanding. So, let see what's wrong and what is good.

 

# why did God created the Sea if people would drown in that or at least he could have created a shallow sea

 

* There can be only two reasons to drown: suicide or accident. The devotee of Krishna or Vishnu would never commit intentional suicide because the body belongs to Krishna. In accident Krishna might decide to save the body of a devotee or not but in any case Krishna is always protecting and saving the surrendered soul.

* Other point to consider is when somebody due to his own acquired karma becomes drown in accident. Well, to bad. He / she should not have left the eternal abode of Lord Vishnu then the accident would not happen here in this material world.

 

 

# why He created an apple tree or he should have created it very tall that no man could reach it).

* The material world is not as perfect as the spiritual planet Vaikuntha in the spiritual world. The reason is so that we come to our senses and inquire "is there some better place than this material world?" The Vedas say yes. In the Spiritual world the wish-fulfilling desire trees - kalpa vrikshas can give anything to you. They even bow down their branches so that you don't have a hard time to climb on the tree if you think it's difficult.

 

# As per Hinduism, The life in earth is not drowning or suffering (alien concept). It is a happy place to enjoy.

* There are two considerations to this. In the Bhagavad gita Krishna says that in the beginning of the creation god gave sacrifice to perform so that by performing it people can live happily in this world and in the next. That means that as long one is having God-centered life he can be happy and as soon as one rejects it the miseries of life will be more intensely experienced.

* Yes, there are miseries of life for everybody. Krishna says these are the birth, death, old age and disease. Whether one is religious or not everybody have to experience them. However, the materialists will experience them to be more heavy. (This could be discussed in more details).

 

# However there are still happier places (more happiness for more duration) and we should try to reach those places,

* Yes there are happier and and happier places but one should not endeavor o reach them if they are situated in the material world. Krishna say in the bhagavad-gita that even from the heavenly planets one will come down again to this earth planet. So, one should endeavor for the highest happy place Vaikuntha or Goloka where one can eternally stay there in the association of Lord Krishna.

 

# but which necessarily does not mean that we should not enjoy this place or we are suffering in this place,

* Enjoying is not possible with material senses because you are the soul and the soul doesn't take part in the so-called enjoyment of the senses since it is different from the material senses. That means there is no material enjoyment for the soul.

* So, the question is what can be our happiness? Well. it is explained that only when God is pleased with us his spiritual pleasure potency bestowes on us spiritual happiness. Therefor, our only endeavor should be to please God and then we will be automatically happy.

 

# there is no suffering anywhere in the universe created by our MERICIFUL God.

* Really? What about all the hellish planets? All the sufferings of people killed in wars etc? You just open little bit your eyes and you will see everywhere suffering either caused by the material nature, by people or your own mind. Therefor, Krishna says that in this universe there is suffering in all the planets from the top one down to the lowest.

 

# There is a story in a Purana which states that a man who is highly indulging in sex would take his next birth as Pig. But he takes birth as Pig not as punishment, because the maximum sexual urge can be realised only by Pigs, not possible in human body.

* No, it is punishment. Before getting a pig body that man have to go to the hell where he is forced to have sex with a fire women. He is burning like anything, screaming from pain and although he would like to get rid of that woman he is forced to have sex with her again and again.

* After sometime he is forced to eat obnoxious things like stool and drink urine. He is disgusted but this is how he gets trained to live in the lower mode of nature namely tamas or ignorance.

* So, when he is used to ignorance he is ready to accept the pig body. Although the pig thinks he is happy having sex and eating stool for us it looks completely a miserable life. But of course for the pig, like also for some human beings, ignorance is bliss.

 

* It is very unfortunate to lose the human opportunity of life just because of thinking it to be for sense gratification and not for God-realization. Only in the human form of life one has enough intelligence to understand the soul, God and what is the ultimate goal of life. But if one like to live like an animal, only to be concerned about eating, sleeping, mating and defending such person will get a better opportunity for these things in some more suitable animal life.

 

# And hence he becomes a Pig, completes his urge and then proceeds upward on his spiritual evolution.

* When after animal life's one again comes to human life form the person starts his spiritual life from zero. And as he has again his free will like always if he misuse it and don't inquire about Goal of life, the soul and God, he might again just become animal like before.

 

# All this eternal Hell, suffering, misery, etc., are alien concepts, and currently deeply getting embedded in our psychology.

* This is a very uneducated statement and so very misleading everybody. There are Scriptures spoken by great sages and even by God Himself and they all speak about hell meant for those who don't abide the laws of God. Do you have better knowledge than God and the sages? No, therefor, you are cheating.

 

# We should break all these mental shackles and realise that God is "Sat-chit-ananda"

* So, you are admitting that you are mental? Good. Then, you should become transcendental. As your soul is 'sat-cit-ananda' God has also the same quality but in greater quantity. If you have any intelligence you should study who is God, His nature etc.

 

# and we are also same with nothing to suffer and nothing to fear or worry.

* As I mentioned ignorance is bliss. And that's obviously your life. You are for me as good as the worst atheist. I think your life is wasted if you will not use it for realizing Krishna consciousness. So, you can choose to live like an animal or a human being.

 

Please chant Hare Krishna and be happy

 

Nitai

 

 

[Sephiroth 0]

Thank you for registering ... now I can get a mental lock on you. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Your arguments are good, but we should understand that things are not as simple as they seem, as stated in Gita, "Things which appear like nectar at the beginning may end up as poision and things which appear like poison may end up as nectar"

 

Which is poison and which is not depends not on the chemical components of the "poison/nectar" alone, it also depends on the individual who drank it.

 

I know a Japanese lady who recently joined (my company deals with Japan and some other countries in Asia). She spent a month in a medical centre for Dengee fever. After she recovered, she asked us how many of us had dengee fever before and we (Malaysians) answered None. That is when I reliazed that the constant biting of mosqutioes in Malaysia actually made us immune to dengee unlike others from overseas did.

 

So now my question is, why did God created the Sea if people would drown in that? or at least he could have created a shallow sea (similar to why He created an apple tree or he should have created it very tall that no man could reach it).

 

You didn't read my statement proper, did you?

 

The Sea is always there, and the sea is the World. If you ask why God created the Sea, it is equal to asking why God created the World if He knows Man is going to forget about Him and suffer in self-indulgement.

 

You can argue that God shouldn't create the world because you are suffering in it. If you say such, I could say, "Go Shoot yourself in the head".

 

WHY? Because Humans are NOT the ONLY lifeform on this world and the World NEVER belonged to them. The World belongs to all form of Life - from the Sea, Air, in the Ground and even inside your miseable body (in form of parasites). If you alone suffer in the World when others have taken steps to reach Him (swimming toward the Beach when they feel tired and worry they may drown), WHY couldn't you?

 

Answer - you are ignorant and do not like to let go of materialistic enjoyment you receive from the World (the Sea). You forgot your own limitation by Nature and when you are too tired to hold on, you drown.

 

God doesn't need to concern Himself to people who do not have Him in his mind or bothered to save your pathetic self if you do not want to be saved.

 

Another thing ... I said God is the Beach, not something like a boat or a ship. Beach don't move, so you are the one who needs to take the first step toward the beach, not expect the Beach comes to you.

 

Religion can be like the Boat or Ship which fish you out of the Sea, but you need to remember the characteristic of a Boat or a Ship. It too lies above water and influence by the waves. It too can sink into the Darkness if waves capcized it.

 

In the end, a Boat/Ship is ONLY SAVE when it reached the Land and under the protection of the solid land masses. Same way, a religion can become your guide but ONLY religion which do not capsize you is the one which can bring you to God.

 

As per Hinduism, The life in earth is not drowning or suffering (alien concept). It is a happy place to enjoy.

 

Wrong ... from the moment Life born in this World millions of years ago to now, eternal Rule of the World is - Suffering.

 

If you want to get ahead, you devour others to do so.

And everyday, you do devour others by placing your interest in front of others.

 

At night, you make love to your wife (without bothering whether she is tired or not) to satisfy your sexual urge. In the morning, you expect her to wake up and make breakfast for you.

 

You rush to work, overlooking others' safety in the road, only with the goal of reaching the office in time in order to get a good name with your colleaques and boss. You work to get ahead in the office, sometimes, playing office politics and such to get ahead.

 

You reach home and look at your children, expecting them to be equally "successful" in school as you think you are "successful" in the Office. If they do not, you threatened them by not giving love they need.

 

You expect your wife to show you how much she loves you by cooking for you, massaging your back, even giving you bath, and finally, satisfying your sexual urges in bed.

 

Life as you know it is just series of devouring of one another by pushing one person's needs ahead of the other. Tolerance and Human Love is just conditions and meeting conditions - one person demands and another gives.

 

Only difference between you and a predator is, a predator like a lion and a tiger devour others openly, while you do so in a closed manner.

 

So you see ... The World (as the Sea) is in state of Suffering, you just don't see it. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

However there are still happier places (more happiness for more duration) and we should try to reach those places, but which neccessarily does not mean that we should not enjoy this place or we are suffering in this place, there is no suffering anywhere in the universe created by our MERICIFUL God.

 

Anyone who says if God is merciful, He will not allow suffering, is a fool who do not know God. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

There is a story in a Purana which states that a man who is highly indulging in sex would take his next birth as Pig. But he takes birth as Pig not as punishment, because the maximum sexual urge can be realised only by Pigs, not possible in human body. And hence he becomes a Pig, completes his urge and then proceeds upward on his spiritual evolution.

 

A pig may move upward to become a man after he finishs enjoying his sexual urges, but WHAT prevents him (from state of Man) from falling back into becoming a Pig again should he chooses to indulge in Sex.

 

If the circle is Pig ---> Man ---> Pig, then what is the purpose of his existence? He is not moving forward in Evolution, he is just running around chasing his own tail. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

All this eternal Hell, suffering, misery, etc., are alien concepts, and currently deeply getting embedded in our psychology.

 

Go and talk to people who survived the Holocaust and ask them whether they had been in Hell during World War 2.

Also, go and talk to people in Cambodia and ask them about Communism government there and understand what hell is.

Also, ask Chinese nowadays what they thinking about smoking and you will know what Ignorance is.

 

You create Heaven and Hell by your own actions, it is not an alien concept.

 

We should break all these mental shackles and realise that God is "Sat-chit-ananda" and we are also same with nothing to suffer and nothing to fear or worry. [This concept was not made very much open earlier-please refer my article Polytheism-Good or Bad? to get more insight why it was not made more open]

 

What's a Sat-Chit-Ananda"?

 

What you ask is for us to forget that we have responsiblity to each others and future generation.

 

What you asking is for us to forget this responsibility and live in state of Ignorance like what they do in China now (where Smoking is considered God-Given Elixir of Life) and indulge fully into enjoyment of the World without bothering about its consequences.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

First of all thank you for providing with intelligent arguments.

 

i am not telling that we should not strive for self-realization or God realization.

 

rather what i am stating is it is not correct to term this world (or any world) as a place of suffering, and we can't do that without accusing God of prejudice or non-mercy.

 

"He / she should not have left the eternal abode of Lord Vishnu then the accident would not happen here in this material world"

 

Now the question comes- why did he leave the eternal abode of Lord Vishnu?

 

1) You can't state that he left it due to ignorance or bad karma or arrogance, etc., since if one is in eternal abode of Lord Vishnu, then he is pure, highly intelligent.

 

2) The other reply is that God sent him "Down" which comes back to the same old question, why did God send "Down" selective people? (please don't answer karma here, since the moment one reaches Vaikunta all his Karma should have been wiped out)

 

"Enjoying is not possible with material senses because you are the soul and the soul doesn't take part in the so-called enjoyment of the senses since it is different from the material senses. That means there is no material enjoyment for the soul. "

 

-This also means that Soul doesn't take part in the so-called misery of the senses since it is different from the material senses.

 

"You create Heaven and Hell by your own actions, it is not an alien concept"

 

Exactly that is what I was saying people are creating suffering and misery in this world by their actions and they are creating their actions by their belief that this world is full of sorrow and misery (an alien belief)

 

We knew from history and our own epics that India was once a glorious country, very wealthy and happy , WHY? because the people were glorious they were happy, WHY? because they had the correct belief.

 

Today we know that India, and the world, is suffering, WHY? because the people are suffering and in misery, WHY? because they BELIEVE this world is full of misery.

 

[ So you BELIEVE in some terrible thing to be true and you work hard to make it true and since it becomes true due to your work you Believe it more and you work more hard to make it true and it goes on]

 

If all this world is misery, then why do Vedas state, "Sarve Jano Sukino Bhavanto"- Let ALL people be happy?

 

Please understand that i am not against Bhakti or God-realization or God service, we can go more deeper into personal, impersonal gods, advaitham, dvaitham, visthadvaitham, sarguno/nirguno brahman etc., but to cut short everything, the summary is:

 

Only few people will be inclined and matured enough for self realization or God realization, the majority of people will be interested in sensual fullfilment, that is the way this world was, is and will be, even as stated in Gita, only one among thousand will even enquire about God realization and in that only one amoung thousand will try God realization, so He himself states only one in Million is going to try God realization, so what about the rest 99,99,999 people.

If you tell them that this world is full of misery and sorrow (even though with good intention of turning them towards God), they can't turn towards Him, due to their intrinsic nature not yet mature enough, also the feeling of misery and sorrow gets embed in them deeply, so they can neither enjoy this world nor turn towards God.

 

To give an example we can consider a school with 1st to 10th standard. Our each birth can be considered as entry to one standard and the death as the exam, so after we finish the tenth standard, we pass out of this world and reach Vaikuntam. After end of each exam we can go the next class, remain in the same class, or even go down to the lower class depending on our performance.

 

But if you say that a child at third standard is "suffering" and in "miserystruggling" to study, we should put him in tenth standard so that he can pass out

, that is fully absurd.

And more absurd would be no need to even study or appear in exam, just keep on praising the teacher/head master (God) and you will automatically pass-out.

 

Children in 3rd standard would be at their level, playing, mischeivous, violent, stupid, etc., they may have no idea about tenth standard or pass-out, if you go and explain to them all about pass-out concept they will become more confused and fall into "misery"

 

That is the reason Bhagvan states in Gita, "Those who are self-realized should not unsettle the mind of insufficiently knowing fools, but rather make them perform their duty while duly performing ones own"

 

So what i am stating is dont tell to the insufficiently knowing fools that this world is a misery and make their life miserable, but rather tell them that this beautiful world created by our MERICIFUL Lord is a happy place, but there are still more happier places in this universe which they can reach by following proper DHARMA, while still enjoying this world also.We can create, with His Grace, a slightly more happier world.

 

i will finish with a story, Naradh Muni was said to be cursed by Brahma to be travelling non-stop in the universe, the reason- he motivated all the Prajapatis to indluge in Bhakti or Jana Yoga to realize God and not to take part in the wordly activities.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

Sorry i forgot to add in my earlier post-

" All this eternal Hell, suffering, misery, etc., are alien concepts, and currently deeply getting embedded in our psychology.

* This is a very uneducated statement and so very misleading everybody. There are Scriptures spoken by great sages and even by God Himself and they all speak about hell meant for those who don't abide the laws of God. Do you have better knowledge than God and the sages? No, therefor, you are cheating."

 

Actually i am not refuting Hell concept as such, but only the "Eternal Hell"- that is once you enter that then there is no way to Go out. But i think (if you have a proof against this you are welcome), both Heaven and Hell are transient, that is people go into and come out and hence not VERY much different than this world.

 

And it is not neccessary that you will be happy in heaven or misery in hell- Srimad Bhagvatam states that Arjun was very sad in Heaven thinking about his brothers, also i think there is a passage in Nackiedas story that when he went to meet Yama, he saw people relaxing and chatting in Hell.

 

So i think the happiness is present every where it is present in very tiny amount in hell and a very huge amount in heaven (you can also state that in a reverse way that misery is present every where it is present in small amount in heaven and a huge amount in hell), that is basically your style of expression.

 

But the most important point is there is an eternal Paradise in Hinduism (Vaikunta or Kailash or Vrindavan or any name you can call- the supreme place of GodHead), where people once entered live happy FOREVER, while there is no mention of an "ETERNAL HELL" where people once entered will live in misery FOREVER. ( and that is the reason I called ETERNAL HELL an alien concept).

 

This shows the MERICIFUL nature of our God, where he had made only happiness eternal, while misery is always a transient place where people of terrible deeds enter but stay for the minimum required time and then again given a chance to move upward in the spiritual evolution.

 

i think this is the most significant point in Hinduism and just spreading this point alone will reduce the misery and the terrible fear of "eternal Hell"

[Sephiroth 0]

I am not telling that we should not strive for self-realization or God realization.

 

Oh Yes you are. Goal of Man is to strive to reach God. All others such as good morale, good conducts etc will appear on its own as byproduct for that main action.

 

IF you want to become a good person, you MUST have Spiritual strive toward God. You cannot say "I can become a good person without trying to reach God" because Laws of Nature states that you're (like like all other humans) are just animals born from nature and therefore will have the dark nature of Animals.

 

Now the question comes- why did he leave the eternal abode of Lord Vishnu?

 

1) You can't state that he left it due to ignorance or bad karma or arrogance, etc., since if one is in eternal abode of Lord Vishnu, then he is pure, highly intelligent.

 

wrong ... Man jumps into the Sea is because he is ignorant and because he wishes to experience state of ignorance.

 

2) The other reply is that God sent him "Down" which comes back to the same old question, why did God send "Down" selective people? (please don't answer karma here, since the moment one reaches Vaikunta all his Karma should have been wiped out)

 

You don't know much about Hindusm, do you? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Ever heard of the story of Jaya and Vijaya and how they fall from Lord Vishnu's grace?

 

Ever heard of story of Sage Narada, in a moment of ignorance, anger and pride (for winning against Kama Dewa), went and cursed Lord Vishnu to suffer the same suffering as he felt when he lost his loved one?

 

WHO said that once a person reached Vaikunta, his Karma will be wiped out and he will not sin again?

 

State of Moksha is simply a state where you do not reborn in continous circle of life and death. When you reach Him, it is your duty to serve Him properly without any emotional attachment, Ego, pride etc.

 

-This also means that Soul doesn't take part in the so-called misery of the senses since it is different from the material senses.

 

Imagine you are in the buss, drove by a driver (who's perfectly stranger to you). The buss involves in an accident in an accident and you end up in hospital. After the period in hospital, you go out and jump into another buss and continue the journey.

 

In above example, the soul is the passenger, body is the buss and the driver is the sensers. If you do not know your own sensors (and take actions to control them), accidents going to happen and you going to end up in hospital - which brings suffering, pain and hospital bills.

 

Here's you enjoy nothing, you get delayed and you end up in hospital. Time is wasted and the journey starts fresh. Even worse, if you are taken to a hospital which is far away from the place you wish to go and have to start the journey anew.

 

Exactly that is what I was saying people are creating suffering and misery in this world by their actions and they are creating their actions by their belief that this world is full of sorrow and misery (an alien belief)

 

But it is full of misery and suffering. What the true nature of the World? Love and Kindness? Hell no ... it is animalistic urge to devour each other. You eat others or be eaten.

 

Hindus in the past lived a proper life NOT because they had correct belief, as you claimed. It is because they know the true nature of the World and take as little as possible and give as much as they could.

 

The beliefs they had then is same as what we have now, however, the mindset of Hindus now are NOT the same as those before due to ignorance from Non-Hindus and Atheists alike.

 

To give an example we can consider a school with 1st to 10th standard. Our each birth can be considered as entry to one standard and the death as the exam, so after we finish the tenth standard, we pass out of this world and reach Vaikuntam. After end of each exam we can go the next class, remain in the same class, or even go down to the lower class depending on our performance.

 

Wrong ... after one class, passing it ensure you go to the next class in the next semester. Failing it will ensure you stay where you are or dropped to another, lower class. You DO NOT go straight to Vaikuntha on one try. No one is THAT holy. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

But if you say that a child at third standard is "suffering" and in "miserystruggling" to study, we should put him in tenth standard so that he can pass out

, that is fully absurd.

 

And more absurd would be no need to even study or appear in exam, just keep on praising the teacher/head master (God) and you will automatically pass-out.

 

It could work if God is described in Abrahamic Religion where all you need is to praise their God and pray without doing good deeds, but that is not Hindusm's God, is it?

 

Hindusm God do not eat praise of the people who wants to His Moksha. God make sure you work for what you want. No choice.

 

That is the reason Bhagvan states in Gita, "Those who are self-realized should not unsettle the mind of insufficiently knowing fools, but rather make them perform their duty while duly performing ones own"

 

This is from Jnana Yoga, is it not? You mistaken in translation.

 

It said, those who knows the Truth should not confuse people who don't have the ability to understand the Truth yet (by speaking complex doctrines) but have them perform their appointed Actions properly"

 

Why? Because by performing their actions and thinking on why they are performing it, this confused people will become to understand on the reason on their actions.

 

This is reason why so many people get confused on what they need to do. Instead of living their lives properly and doing their respective duties (as stated in Jnana Yoga - as Sacrifice to Him), people go and find self-proclaim Gurus and Sages who, they themselves are confused, and get even more confused than before.

 

if you say, by allowing others to remain ignorant, you will bring peace, you are sadly mistaken. Ignorance will never bring peace.

 

i will finish with a story, Naradh Muni was said to be cursed by Brahma to be travelling non-stop in the universe, the reason- he motivated all the Prajapatis to indluge in Bhakti or Jana Yoga to realize God and not to take part in the wordly activities.

 

You can't even narrate a story properly. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

It is not Lord Brahma who curse Narada but a Sage, after Narada went and influence his two sons not to marry and seek Lord Vishnu's guidance.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

First of all, i think we are not in the mood of trying to prove "my theory is the correct " but more mature enough to go through the discussion and enlighten ourselves more.

 

"Man jumps into the Sea is because he is ignorant and because he wishes to experience state of ignorance"

 

This is entirely a knew idea to me no where i had read "man wishes to experience state of ignorance" i had read only "man wishes to experience happiness", may be you can explain more on this.

 

Your Point 2) is good but basically you are making a distinction there is a "state of Moksha" and there is a "Place of Moksha(Vaikunta, Vrindavan,Kailash..)", and people who had reached Place of Moksha are not necessarily in State of Moksha (i.e., they may be still be subjected to birth and death under some conditions).

 

i am not refuting your theory, but say that the corollary should be also true, that is people can reach "State of Moksha" without reaching the "Place of Moksha" (Vedaha Mukti in Yoga), that is you can enjoy bliss even when you are in earth within this body.

 

say, if suppose, Lord Krishna comes before you and start playing Flute and dance, what you will do? Close your eyes and ears and say We are not interested in Sensual Pleasures!!! if not then why not enjoy sensual pleasure created by human, who is nothing but a microsom of the God (the Macrosom)-[it is a yogic philosphy that "Whatever is in Universe is also in Human Body" albeit in different scale]

 

Bhagvan states in Gita that there are three types of action:- (good) action, (bad) Prohibited action and inaction (or actionless). So while actionless state is the ideal, we should realize that good action is the practical and prevent people from entering prohibited action and bring suffering to themselves and others.

 

Regarding your Bus example, not all Bus joureny will end with an accident, we can also have Bus journey where we pass through beautiful scenery, good companions, happy journey and safely reach the home (in fact may be 99 out of 100 journeys would be like it), so should i avoid those journeys just for the fear of one accident?

 

"The beliefs they had then is same as what we have now, however, the mindset of Hindus now are NOT the same as those before due to ignorance from Non-Hindus and Atheists alike"

 

-Sorry i dont know the diference between belief and mindset may be you can explain more here.

 

"it is animalistic urge to devour each other. You eat others or be eaten. "

 

- i say this is the alien concept (here it is Darwanian concept) , there is a story about one Randidevan in srimad Bhagavatam, where his whole family goes without food for six days, on the seventh day when they get a small amount of food to eat , a beggar comes to them and they happily give away a portion of it to him. Do you think this is the animal behaviour, have you ever seen or heard animals doing this?

 

since because you believe that the humans have natural anmialistic urge you work hard to make humans as animal and bring misery upon them.

 

Both Vaikunta and this earth are created by the same Lord and both are flawless, i am not telling ignorance will bring peace, but rather grace will bring peace. Be graceful and His grace will descend on you.

 

One of the main reasons for downfall of India, not much mentioned in the books, is the Emperor Ashoka, who thought that Wars are bad and Peace is good, so he ordered all his soliders not to engage in war or war practice but to plant trees, build roads and wells, build travelers rest house and so on. Where are his trees, where are his roads, all are gone, but India has paid and still paying for his mistake.So i request you to just not go by what you think is ideal but rather place your arguments and beliefs on strong logic and authority (Gita).

 

Remember that we are now living in a golden age (as per Chaityna Mahaprabu the first 10,000 years of Kali is a golden age), because in Kali just telling Bhagvans name you can attain whatever you desire and for the first 10,000 years of Kali you will also have this knowledge, after 10,000 years you may be able to still achieve whatever you want by chanting His name until end of Kali, but this knowlege would have disappered.

 

So enjoy this life, do Good actions, spread happiness and chant His name

[krishnadasa 0]

The intepreation was intellingent enough! liked it

 

Hari Hari bol

 

 

[Nitairam 0]

Hare Krishna

 

** Actually i am not refuting Hell concept as such, but only the "Eternal

Hell"- that is once you enter that then there is no way to Go out. But

i think (if you have a proof against this you are welcome), both Heaven

and Hell are transient, that is people go into and come out and hence

not VERY much different than this world.

 

## I think we agree with each other

 

** And it is not necessary that you will be happy in heaven or misery in

hell- Srimad Bhagvatam states that Arjun was very sad in Heaven

thinking about his brothers, also i think there is a passage in Nackiedas

story that when he went to meet Yama, he saw people relaxing and chatting

in Hell.

 

## As far as I remember in the heaven there is no misery at all for anybody. But the last year of life one begins to suffer old age. The woman becomes pregnant; the flower garland around the person becomes drie; there is weakness of the bodily strength and disease.

In hell? Well, the yamadhutas are certainly not suffering there but others yes. Here is a link where you can read about hellish life.

http://vedabase.net/sb/5/26/en1

 

So i think the happiness is present every where it is present in very

tiny amount in hell and a very huge amount in heaven

 

## No, maybes. Please, take shastra as it is. There is no relief from suffering in the hell, not even for a moment.

 

** But the most important point is there is an eternal Paradise in

Hinduism (Vaikunta or Kailash or Vrindavan or any name you can call- the

supreme place of GodHead), where people once entered live happy FOREVER,

while there is no mention of an "ETERNAL HELL" where people once entered

will live in misery FOREVER. ( and that is the reason I called ETERNAL

HELL an alien concept).

 

## Yes, there is no such thing as eternally suffering in the hell.

 

This shows the MERICIFUL nature of our God, where he had made only

happiness eternal, while misery is always a transient place where people of

terrible deeds enter but stay for the minimum required time and then

again given a chance to move upward in the spiritual evolution.

 

## Good.

 

i think this is the most significant point in Hinduism and just

spreading this point alone will reduce the misery and the terrible fear of

"eternal Hell"

 

## Success in preaching.

 

Please chant Hare Krishna an be happy.

 

Nitai

[Sephiroth 0]

This is entirely a knew idea to me no where i had read "man wishes to experience state of ignorance" i had read only "man wishes to experience happiness", may be you can explain more on this.

 

What is ignorance and what is happiness? Ever thought about that?

 

When you think something is happiness and force others to "make" you happy, that is an example of a person who want to exprience state of ignorance. Only difference is, such person ignorant enough to call such emotional attachments and actions of experiencing happiness, because to the Self, it is happy.

 

Example is today's youth who are in love. A young woman will dream of marriage, family and what she believes as happiness. A young man, driven by his own desires will dream of sexual pleasures from her. The thought of marriage and family is something he will not think or maybe put aside for later.

 

Driven by his urge and sensors, he will try to force the young woman to accept his advancement. The young lady, thinking this is a small price to pay to get her happiness will allow it.

 

"Accidents" happen and next thing you know - both of them are parents, forced into marriage and now living as a couple.

 

Either are happy, because the mindset of the young man were never ready for marriage and what the young woman expected from him is not fullfilled. Furthermore, they have a new responsiblity now in form of a child.

 

So, in brief moment of wanting to experience ignorance which the man thought as "happiness" and the woman thought as "sacrifice for happiness", both managed to dig a large hole, jump in and bury themselves in emotional attachments. To make things worse, they have a new life (their child) which will get caught in the middle of this two unhappy individuals.

 

Your Point 2) is good but basically you are making a distinction there is a "state of Moksha" and there is a "Place of Moksha(Vaikunta, Vrindavan,Kailash..)", and people who had reached Place of Moksha are not necessarily in State of Moksha (i.e., they may be still be subjected to birth and death under some conditions).

 

Most common mistake Hindus makes is thinking when they reach Moksha, they going to sprout wings and fly to Vaikuntha. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Take Sage Narada for example. He started as a Gandha (angel-like being) who curse to be born as human, and when he reached state of Moksha, he reborn in state of bliss to Lord Brahma and runs around mumbling "Narayana".

 

He still walks around in the Universe like other Dewas do and still feel emotions, only this time, he has no attachments to it.

 

So, logically speaking, a person who reach Moksha is someone who still exists in a physical plain but has no attachment to it like normal people do. And since God is everywhere (including in yourself), then this world is your "Vaikuntha" till you release from your physical state and go back to Him ... or till you fall from Grace, whichever comes first.

 

say, if suppose, Lord Krishna comes before you and start playing Flute and dance, what you will do? Close your eyes and ears and say We are not interested in Sensual Pleasures!!! if not then why not enjoy sensual pleasure created by human, who is nothing but a microsom of the God (the Macrosom)-[it is a yogic philosphy that "Whatever is in Universe is also in Human Body" albeit in different scale]

 

If you think Sri Krishna's music is sensual pleasures, whose fault is that? Sri Krishna's yours?

 

His music is in the winds ... the sound of the sea, wind blowing in open field, beautiful sky and white clouds passing by, and even in violent storms that mimic Lord Shiva's dance of destruction. If you cannot hear that, then you are deaf.

 

Bhagvan states in Gita that there are three types of action:- (good) action, (bad) Prohibited action and inaction (or actionless). So while actionless state is the ideal, we should realize that good action is the practical and prevent people from entering prohibited action and bring suffering to themselves and others.

 

Bhavagad Gita also state it is impossible for a person to remain actionless, but better to do action as offering for Him (devoiding attachment and emotions) than to do actions with state of ignorance and seeking fruits of attachment.

 

Regarding your Bus example, not all Bus joureny will end with an accident, we can also have Bus journey where we pass through beautiful scenery, good companions, happy journey and safely reach the home (in fact may be 99 out of 100 journeys would be like it), so should i avoid those journeys just for the fear of one accident?

 

No, you shouldn't avoid such beautiful scenery ... but you cannot attach yourself to one and delay your journey either, could you?

 

Attaching to emotions, family, love and such is like stopping at every beautiful sight and admiring it for hours. In the end, your destination is delayed and you may change another bus.

 

 

"it is animalistic urge to devour each other. You eat others or be eaten. "

 

- i say this is the alien concept (here it is Darwanian concept) , there is a story about one Randidevan in srimad Bhagavatam, where his whole family goes without food for six days, on the seventh day when they get a small amount of food to eat , a beggar comes to them and they happily give away a portion of it to him. Do you think this is the animal behaviour, have you ever seen or heard animals doing this?

 

Could you give away your food to others when you are starving? I bet you will not. Why ... because true nature of Man is eat or be eaten.

 

You also forgot to mention about the mongoose who came, roll on the ground and turned half of his body to gold and searching for similar place where an entire family gave selfishless sacrifice to others.

 

since because you believe that the humans have natural anmialistic urge you work hard to make humans as animal and bring misery upon them.

 

This is stupidity as it's best. By accepting my dark nature, I use God's given tools (my faith, my mind and my soul) to control my sensors and bring my soul back to Him.

 

You on the other hand seems to think just because humans are dark in nature, they should allow to continue to exist in state of ignorance.

 

Remember that we are now living in a golden age (as per Chaityna Mahaprabu the first 10,000 years of Kali is a golden age), because in Kali just telling Bhagvans name you can attain whatever you desire and for the first 10,000 years of Kali you will also have this knowledge, after 10,000 years you may be able to still achieve whatever you want by chanting His name until end of Kali, but this knowlege would have disappered.

 

Wrong ... this is kali yuga - the Dark Age. Mumbling His name out loud when your heart has no faith is like rattling an empty can. Speak His name and Work for Him without attachment.

[Sephiroth 0]

The intepreation was intellingent enough! liked it

 

Thank You. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

i would first like to get clarification on the point:

"First of all, i think we are not in the mood of trying to prove "my theory is the correct " but more mature enough to go through the discussion and enlighten ourselves more"

 

Mainly because of two reasons:

 

1) Todays most of the "Logical" discussions can be summarized in one statement- "Whatever I say, I do and I believe is true, since MY Belief says so and Whatever you Say, you do and you Believe is wrong, since MY Belief says so"- even though i think our Bhagavan will not allow us to fall down to such levels, still would like to confirm.

 

2) i don't what to hurt the feelings of His devotees, even inadverently, since He states (in Ambarish story), that He does not mind anybody troubling Him but would never tolerate troubling His Devotees.

 

Before proceeding further, let us make clear one issue-, i think that happiness is the intrinsic nature of human and suffering and misery are superimposed on him due to wrong beliefs and wrong actions, while you state that misery is the intrinsic nature of human and happiness can be obtained only by certain actions, and there is only misery and suffering in this world.

 

There is a statement in Gita, which states,"For them even this world will not be happy, and then How the next world will be happy"

 

i interpert that as only if this world is happy for some body then the next world will be happy and that is the reason i say that there is happiness every where, if there is no happiness, i can't figure out why Bhagavan tells the above statement. would like to know your counter logic before going further

[Sephiroth 0]

1) Todays most of the "Logical" discussions can be summarized in one statement- "Whatever I say, I do and I believe is true, since MY Belief says so and Whatever you Say, you do and you Believe is wrong, since MY Belief says so"- even though i think our Bhagavan will not allow us to fall down to such levels, still would like to confirm.

 

Unfortunately, Humans are not beings which always follow what the Bhagavan wants us to follow.

 

And you are right, He doesn't want us to fall into such levels, but we do ... why? Because the Sea of Suffering and Ignorance is always there and always calls us.

 

We always take for granted the solid land masses which our feet stands upon and choose to jump into the Sea, only to drown and complain that there is no God. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

2) i don't what to hurt the feelings of His devotees, even inadverently, since He states (in Ambarish story), that He does not mind anybody troubling Him but would never tolerate troubling His Devotees.

 

You talking about my feeling? Hmph ... I'm not His devotee, I'm just a slave who trying to do something useful. Devotees in my opinion are ones who leave worldly possessions and choose to live for His sake alone.

 

Before proceeding further, let us make clear one issue-, i think that happiness is the intrinsic nature of human and suffering and misery are superimposed on him due to wrong beliefs and wrong actions, while you state that misery is the intrinsic nature of human and happiness can be obtained only by certain actions, and there is only misery and suffering in this world.

 

Do you know HOW I come to conclusion that the World is in state of misery and suffering? No, I didn't listen to some monks or priests who brainwashed me, I perform some experiments on myself (and a few others) and comes out the logical explaination. Here's some experiements you can do yourself :

 

1. Examine yourself and find which of the following emotions is easier to appear to surface and which is harder to bring to surface :

 

1. Anger Or Calmness.

2. Peace Or Worries.

3. Jealous OR Happiness for others.

4. Delight in Otherss Suffering OR Sense of Sadness for Others' Suffering.

 

2. Pick a good day and fast (no water and food, or maybe just no food if you cannot take it) and see what emotions comes easily - follow the above list.

 

here is a statement in Gita, which states,"For them even this world will not be happy, and then How the next world will be happy"

 

i interpert that as only if this world is happy for some body then the next world will be happy and that is the reason i say that there is happiness every where, if there is no happiness, i can't figure out why Bhagavan tells the above statement. would like to know your counter logic before going further

 

When He spoke of the statement, He spoke about people who are ignorant, suffering in the World and unhappy about the conditions of their own existence.

 

Remember the two couples which dug a large hole before? Do you think they will be happy if given Heaven? Sure ... they will be happy for a day or two, but when one remembers the others' existence and unhappiness the others had cause, both will be miserable.

 

For example, assume you hit me, I hit you back and we spent eternity hitting each other across the face. Both died and end up in Heaven. In Heaven, when I see your face, I will be angry at you because of what you did and you will be angry at what I did. The fight which started on Earth will resume in Heaven, Hell and back on Earth again.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

"Devotees in my opinion are ones who leave worldly possessions and choose to live for His sake alone"

 

So you conclude that King Ambarish, King Janaka (mentioned in Gita by name) are not His devotees since they didn't leave worldly possessions,right?

 

i think this is the alien concept of brainwashing, since Bhagavan himself accepts them as their Devotees, He says his Devotees are of four types- "One who prays for more wordly pleasures, One who is satisfied with the current worldly pleasures but prays that it should not reduce, one who is not at all interested in worldly pleasure but prays for His knowledge and finally the Wise man"

 

He says that indeed all four types are noble and His Devotees , but you say only the third type can be considered His Devotee!!!!!

 

2) "see what emotions comes easily - follow the above list.

"

 

What emotions comes easily depends on our beliefs, our social conditions, the education and many other conditions.

 

i agree that in modern time the negative emotions come easily and more naturally, explained beautifully by Sri Sri Ravishankar.

 

In one of his disclosures he says, "When I tell you (the crowd), "I love you" then very few people would believe me, most people will not believe, will think that I am trying to cheat you, why should I love you without reasons,etc.., but if I tell you "I hate you" almost every body would believe without doubt and become angry"---- WHY? It is the same person making the same type of statement (without any background or proof), but people tend to believe the negative (hate) and refuse to believe the postive (love).

 

We have to conclude then that people have a general bias towards negative things (they believe negative things more) and this belief was super imposed on us by alien beliefs and we are also becoming negative in our view of the world.

 

WHY i am telling this as alien belief, because if people had so much of negative belief about 2500 years ago (approx the period of Adi Sankracharya] no body would have believed him saying "We ALL are God himself and we are all bliss personified" the maximum positive statement that can be made on this earth. We see from history that most of the people belived in that positive statement.[incidentally Adi Shankracharya had written one of the best commentary on Bhagavad Gita and i request you to go through it atleast once]

[Sephiroth 0]

So you conclude that King Ambarish, King Janaka (mentioned in Gita by name) are not His devotees since they didn't leave worldly possessions,right?

 

Wrong ... there is three type of people who work for God. They are (using my own terms here) :-

 

1. Jnana Yogis - One who work using their own physical aspects toward God. Sun God and Yama Dharma is one of them. Warriors are include in this category.

 

2. Dharma Yogis - Ones who work using their mental capabilities - thinking and logic toward God. Brahmins, Teachers, Scientists etc who uses logic are in this category.

 

3. Karma Yogis - Ones who work due to been placed there by their Karmas. They accept it and do their work as Fate choose them.

 

Path of Bhakti (Bhakti Yoga) is same to all Hindus but how they work is different according to one another due to their own individual capabilities and attitude. THAT (at least to me) essence of Bhavagad Gita.

 

A king who works for his people (and not his own self, family and friends) is a Jnana Yogis - one who approach God by his own physical capabilities.

 

i think this is the alien concept of brainwashing, since Bhagavan himself accepts them as their Devotees, He says his Devotees are of four types- "1. One who prays for more wordly pleasures, 2. One who is satisfied with the current worldly pleasures but prays that it should not reduce, 3. one who is not at all interested in worldly pleasure but prays for His knowledge and finally 4. the Wise man"

 

The 1st is a fool who worship God only for beneficts He will give them. If God gives him problems, he will leave God and even curse Him. Ignorant ones and Atheists are such people.

 

2nd one are semi-fools, wanting to balance worldly possession and heavenly gains. I can only think of Muslims here. Most Hindus and laymen Buddhists are also fall into this category. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

3rd ones are Knowledge Seekers - hoping that knowledge will bring them close to God. Can't think of any particular people.

 

4th are Monks, priests and such who willing to give up Worldly possessions just to find the Truth.

 

While God, in His infinite wisdom and Love accept all this, I for once feel He should reject the 1st two and just choose the last two. The world should be in peace if He did. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

What emotions comes easily depends on our beliefs, our social conditions, the education and many other conditions.

 

Maybe ... maybe not. As far as I know, it present our dark nature and I for once will not fool myself in believing I'm a good person living in good world.

 

I'm for once, am a Cruel Person with a mind that is sharp as a sword and lack of emotions like an Asuran. That is my nature and I accepted it.

 

Like what Sri Krishna said : "Nature of Man is to fight, the question now is HOW to fight".

 

By accepting the Dark Nature of a Person, he or she will accept his or her own actions in a new light and take steps to control him or herself. Otherwise, the person will just fool him or herself into believing he/she has a perfect control over his/her actions.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

i think now this is becoming more interesting, amusing and enlighting.

 

Once Swami Sukabodhana told that the modern Man thinks "What God Knows, what He does not know and What He should not Know", i think you had provided a classical example for his statement.

 

"I for once feel He should reject the 1st two and just choose the last two"

 

"I'm not His devotee, I'm just a slave "

 

don't think you are completely contradicting in these two statements.

 

As a slave should not YOU accept what He Says and proceed?

 

This again i am not finding surprising as most "modern" people claim that they are His Slaves and in the same breadth claim that He should have done this or shouldn't have done that,etc., so i don't know whether they are really slaves or masters of God.

 

Mostly from what i see from "ModernLogicalarguments" is that people declare "I am a slave of God", "You become a Slave of Me" so in turn you will become a slave of God.

 

i think all this slave statements are nothing but a subtle way of pushing their beliefs over other people (or even over Him also), it would be better if we just say we are a devotee of God, love Him and also love all His creation and be happy.

[Sephiroth 0]

"I for once feel He should reject the 1st two and just choose the last two"

"I'm not His devotee, I'm just a slave "

 

don't think you are completely contradicting in these two statements.

 

No, where's the contradiction. One is my wish (that He could dump useful fools and choose only the most suitable souls who will work for Him - note, I too may be judge as worthless and I will accept). The 2nd one is my opinion about God and MY relationship with Him.

 

Both case, it is MY belief and MY desire. So why it is contradiction?

 

As a slave should not YOU accept what He Says and proceed?

 

Following blindly is NOT the way of Hindusm. In all the Puranas, you will see plenty of example of Sages, Dewas and even normal Men speak their minds with others regarding what to do, so it will serve the best to others and not simply follow.

 

If God wants a being that follows orders, He could have given Humanity to the Cows. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

God has NO Master. ANYONE claims such is an IDIOT who do not know God.

 

Mostly from what i see from "ModernLogicalarguments" is that people declare "I am a slave of God", "You become a Slave of Me" so in turn you will become a slave of God.

 

That is another stupidity. By logic, can one Slave own and control another Slave YET he claims he is a Slave to his master?

 

At same time, can one person who seeks God in turn teach other seekers about God, since he himself have yet found God? It is a case of blind leading the blind.

 

That is why there is so much case of this Samiji or that priest raping this girl or that girl or emblezz this much money or that much money.

 

I for once reject anyone who says he comes with authority from God and I will reject anyone who thinks I have authority to God to teach them.

 

i think all this slave statements are nothing but a subtle way of pushing their beliefs over other people (or even over Him also), it would be better if we just say we are a devotee of God, love Him and also love all His creation and be happy.

 

Define what is a Devotee.