Free will vs. destiny

[Guest guest]

im taking an atheism class and this was one of the topics of debate....

 

how are others take on this? it can only be one of the two...which one? what does the hindu scriptures say?

[Guest guest]

<font color="brown">Namaskar Ratheeshji !</font color>

 

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Free will is free will. It is only the dream of idle brain. But the 'law of karma' is the truth. Our karma, prarudh and sanchit karmas make our destiny. We the people are interested very much to know our fate, future but we don't try to up lead, to give up the illegal, anti-divine and anti-conscience karmas. So as we sow, we reap. We add something new to our destiny / fate to suffer in future in every incarnation. If the suffering is the destiny, its not bad because Shri Bhootnath says, "Sufferings are the erosions of sins."

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Om Namah Shivay ! </font color>

[subroto]

Go to this website for more info on free will/ destiny

 

www.geocities.com/tvnswamy/sanskrit_notes.html

 

 

ONce you get there scroll down and read

 

 

Lesson #2: Verse #3: VIDHIHI - Fate:

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Yet another verse, culled from Subhashita Rathnakara,

relates to what is called ,VIDHI or Fate.

The verse says:

Bhavithavyam bhavathyeva narikelaphalambuvath,

Ganthavyam gatham ithyahuhu gajabhuktha kapithhavath.

What is destined to happen will happen inevitably,

and what is not destined to happen

will never happen in spite of all efforts.

The verse conveys that what must stay

would invariably stay.

A cocoanut is destined to have water in it;

but how does this water come inside it

is a mystery to the naked eye.

We cannot perceive the source of water

that trickles into a tender cocoanut.

This does not happen to any other class of other fruits

and is destined to happen only in this family of fruits

at the appropriate time.

Similarly, what is not destined to remain, will not remain.

The example given here is of the Kapithha fruit (wood-apple).

An elephant eats a Kapithha fruit

as it is without breaking it

and excretes it as it is without any rupture.

But if one examines the excreted fruit

he will find that the water which was there

before eating it is not there now.

It has to go, and how does it go

without breaking it, is Nature's mystery.

This leads to a greater question.

Does it mean that human effort has no value

and every thing happens as per "Destiny"?

What is Fate or Destiny?

Is it blind faith leading to Fatalism?

Does it lead to cutting at the very root of self-effort?

There are three types of Karmaor

"results of one's own actions".

They are: (1) Sanchitha, (2) Prarabdha and ( 3) Aagami.

Sanchita is a bundle of all the Karmas

accumulated over a number of births.

Prarabdha is that specific Karma or Karmas

already taken up for the purpose of this life.

Since these Karmas have already

started to give results /fruition,

nothing can be done about them at this stage.

This is called Destiny or Fate.

But there is yet another group of Karmas called Aagami,

i.e.,the actions that are now being done

which will give their results later in future.

In this way, one can make or mar one's destiny.

Man is not a puppet in the hands of Fate,

he is the creater of his own Destiny.

For more details, please see FAQ question # 1.

at website: http://www.geocities.com/tvnswamy/faq.html

Top

 

Lesson #2: verse #4: KARYASIDHI:

 

Then go to

 

Lesson #2: Verse #5: UDYAMAHA - (Effort):

**********************************************************

Udyoginam purushasimham upaithi Lakshmeeh

Daivam pradhanam ithi kaapurushaah vadanthi,

Daivam vihaya kuru pourusham athmasakthyaa

Yathney krithey yadi na sidhyanthi ko/tra doshaha.

The Goddess of Wealth, Lakshmi,

favours only those who are diligent and industrious.

Those who are weak-minded are lethargic

and do not strive forward

nor initiate an action

on the plea that every thing is

pre-determined by Fate which alone,

they say, is more important than one's actions.

One should, however,

put one's best efforts disregarding "fate ".

What is wrong, if one puts

his best efforts, but does not succeed?

This sloka is yet another quote from Subhashitha Rathnakara,

the "Ocean of Good Sayings".

It is said that no deer will voluntarily

enter the mouth of a sleeping lion.

Without an effort, even things

that are destined to happen will not happen.

Unless one moves one step forward,

even God cannot help him.

A hungry person once decided that

he will not do anything that is

required of him and wait for Fate to take its own course.

He was sitting in a choultry where many travellers come,

stay for some time and leave.

He was feeling hungry, but would not move anywhere,

for, he felt that fate will give him food.

A couple of days passed by, and he could not get any food.

His mouth began to water seeing

other travellers eating and enjoying the food.

He could not suffer any more and involuntarily,

he coughed to attract the attention of

those who were eating in his presence.

It had the desired effect and

one of the travellers heard his

peevish cough and took pity on him and offered food.

Atleast that much of effort as even a cough

was required to succeed in life.

It is only the daring and

the adventurous that succeed in life.

Goddess Lakshmi, the Goddess of Wealth goes

to such person and favours him with, wealth and prosperity.

Only the weak-minded people take cover on " fate"

and take an excuse for not starting a work.

The poet here asks a question

generally raised by the weakminded:

"What is the guarantee that

the work started, if at all, will win ?".

The poet says that even if it does not succeed,

what is the fault here?

It is better to try and lose,

rather than not to try at all.

 

 

[maadhav]

<< it can only be one of the two...>>

 

both are true in certain way.

 

there is free will for us all.

 

there is cause and effect system of nature also.

 

we can only act, but the result is not dependent only on what we do. so, result is a matter of chance, you can say.

 

people try to become wise to increase their chane of success.

 

some times devas, a devis or krishna has a plan for us, and we do not know. in that case, we feel are acting freely but still it goes in accordance with what god has decided.

 

one fact is that one does not get anything without any effort. if one gets it by some rare chance, he may not be able to keep it or use it for long.

 

so, we do have free will to progress.

 

[Guest guest]

if one believes in destiny/fate then any actions exhibited by the human body is a mere part of that destiny and the free will that we claim to have is only an illusion. there is no free will and what we believe we "chose" to do freely was acutally all part of god's plan and it was supposed to happen, so we really didnt choose it.

 

true?

[Guest guest]

I believe that everything is based on your Karma. There are some things that have been pre ordained (you will have an accident, you will have 2 children, you will be born to a certain family etc due to karma is past lives) but as we live our creent life, we get many chances to choose our path. For example, you can choose to be charitable or not. You can choose to steal and lie or not. If you are kind, helpful and live your life doing your duty, you will reap the benefits of that. Instead of having a near fatal accident, God may let you off with a scare. So its a mixture. We are lucky in that all we need to do is follow His teachings and do the best we can. Even if no one else can see that you are pure in thought and deed, He knows. And he is the only one that matters.

[maadhav]

yes true.

still god gives us free will, and he says "this is my system of jutice and maya and karma-reations." do as youpleae, and enjoy or suffer.

 

so you have fee will.

you care read this nr not read it;

make a post or not make a post.

 

be friendly or not friendly.

unite or disunite.

 

eat or starve.

work or sleep.

 

that is freedom.

 

there is so much freedom, but it is not worth taking.

we are free to jump from 3rd floor, but we do nto do it.

 

many want to kiss any girl the see, but most do not.

 

you could drive at high speed in narrrow streets,

but probably would not.

 

so one uses one's wisdom to willingly restrict one's freedom. history shows that those who take wisdom from gita, are more likely to be more happy than others who do not. so, that is freedom. live per gita or against gita.

 

and krishna says:

 

karmaNye vA'dhikaarast

maa phaleshhu kadaachana

 

an employee in a company has some feedom, but not all.

 

on this earth of god, there is some freedom, but not all.

only god has total freedom. we do not.

freedom relates to free will.

 

[Guest guest]

<font color="brown">Pranam Maadhavji !</font color>

 

<font color="blue">

Nice explanations about 'Free Will' and freedom. Our mind is unbalanced, it goes 17 places at a time. It's desires are infinite. It likes to rejoice every right and wrong things. So our ancestors formed society and laws to control the endless offensive desires of human. Lots of 'free wills' but man can't do so. Without the laws (rules) of societies and governments, maximum of us will not behave like as it is. We are naked under the garments with our biological, outer and physical knowledgeable intellect. So the inner consciousness should be the 'Free Will' for the humanity and salvation. </font color>

 

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Om Namah Shivay ! </font color>

[Kalli]

Yesterday's free will is todays destiny, todays free will is tommorow's destiny and so on.

 

If one feels that one is bound by destiny then it means that ones free will is not presently utlized so as to overcome destiny.

 

Intrinsically Free Will is more powerful than destiny.

 

However as we do not know the intensity of our past actions (destiny) we conclude that free will is powerless against destiny.

[maadhav]

<< So the inner consciousness should be the 'Free Will' for the humanity and salvation. >>

 

consciousness is the result of the soul within us, just as light is the rsult of a lamp. it is the observer, feeler, experiencer, it just feels what is and is not.

 

we can talk of free will when ther is a will.

teh jiva has some desire. he wants toe get something, change something, make something. so, he has to act. and that act should not be stopped by any one. then one feels freedom. a fish in acquarium has freedom but it cannot go out of th bowl. we canntot quit this earth (unless we become an advanced yogi, a siddha.)

 

less avanced people try to get/secure their freedom by robbign othres' freedom. that checkig othres' freedom is not good as long as the othe is not checking your freedom.

so, freedom is not free.

we need to fight to retain our freedom to act.

 

we are free to prctice any vedic path/dharma in hindustan.

muslims and Xians do not want us to do it.

so we need to fight to retain our freedom.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

<<Yesterday's free will is todays destiny, todays free will is tommorow's destiny and so on.>>

 

if yesterday's actions were controlled by my own free will then it was not destined. Destiny entails that there is one thing that is set to happen and that is what will happen. If this is the case, then any action that I actually do do was destined to occur so my illusion of having freely done that action was just an illusion and i really have no free will. my actions are not my own but those that fate has already prescribed for me

 

[Guest guest]

The controversy between free will and fatalism is still going on in the West and no one has come to any definite conclusion. It is a great pity that the doctrine of Karma is mistaken for fatalism. Fatalism is the doctrine that all events are subject to fate and happen by unavoidable necessity.

 

Fate is otherwise known as luck or fortune. That indefinable mysterious something which brings trials, successes and failures to man, which shapes and moulds him by teaching lessons of various sort, which takes care of him like a mother, which brings various sort of experiences, which brings cloudy days and days of bright sunshine, which raises a beggar to the level of a landlord and hurls down a mighty potentate to the level of a street-beggar, which gives different kinds of fruits and experiences to two people of equal talents and capacities, which made Napolean at one time a terror in the eyes of the people and at another time a prisoner, and which makes a certain portion of the life of a man quite stormy and another portion quite smooth, is called fate. Fate educates and instructs man. However whimsical the fate may appear to operate, it works in harmony with the law of causation.

 

Fate is one’s own creation. Man acts and thinks and develops his own character. He creates a web like the spider or a silk-worm and entangles himself in its meshes on account of the three knots, viz., Avidya, Kama and Karma. He himself has enthroned fate to the level of a king and obeys its order owing to his ignorance and its effects.

 

The doctrine of Karma is diametrically opposed to the doctrine of fatalism. Fatalism causes inertia, lethargy, weakness of will and bondage. Fatalism annihilates faith. It induces terrible fear in the people. It destroys ethics. It checks growth and evolution, whereas the doctrine of Karma is an incentive to action to better one’s condition. It is a source of solace. It gives man an assurance of a broader and happier life. It presupposes freedom of the will. Freedom is the essence of Karma. It gives opportunities for growth and evolution. The doctrine of Karma affords a most rational and scientific explanation of what is called fate. It gives a positive definite word of assurance that, although the present of which he himself is the creator or the author, is unalterable and irrevocable, he may better his future by changing his thoughts, habits, tendencies and mode of action. Herein lies great comfort, strength, encouragement and consolation to the desperate man. Herein lies a strong impetus for the man to struggle and exert for improving himself. Even a forlorn and helpless man is made cheerful when he understands this doctrine of Karma. The doctrine of Karma brings hope to the hopeless, help to the helpless, joy to the cheerless and new strength to the weak. It braces up a sunken man. It is an ideal “pick-me-up” for the depressed and gloomy. The doctrine of Karma teaches: “Do not blame anybody when you suffer. Do not accuse God. Blame yourself first. You will have to reap what you have sown in your previous birth. Your present sufferings are due to your own bad Karma in your past life. You are yourself the author of the present state. The present is unchangeable. Do not weep. Do not cry over spilt milk. There is no use. You will not gain anything by so doing. Instead of weeping over the failure of crops during last year, go on ploughing this year. You will get abundant rain this year and rich harvest. Do virtuous actions now. Think rightly. Act rightly. You will have a brilliant and a glorious future.” How beautiful and soul-stirring is this magnanimous doctrine of Karma! The doctrine of Karma develops faith and supports ethics. It says: “If you hurt another man, you hurt yourself.”

 

Every act produces in the performer a double effect, one in the inner nature in the form of a tendency, good or bad, and the other in the form of fruit, reward or punishment. The past Karma influences the present life in two ways, first in the form of character or tendency internally and as fate externally. If you do an action, it creates a Samskara or subtle impression in the subconscious mind or Chitta. The Samskara causes a tendency. Tendency develops into a habit by repetition of the actions. The habit manifests as character. Character develops into destiny. This is the order: Samskara, tendency, habit, character, and destiny.

 

The faculty of choosing is termed will. This will is free by its own nature. Man has a free will by his birthright. It asserts itself at every moment of our lives. Bear in mind that every small act that you perform is the resultant of triple conjoint forces, viz., freewill, character and fate. The sphere of activity varies according to the nature of your Karma and the character formed by it. If you have done virtuous actions in your previous birth and if you have developed an exemplary character, your will will have a wider field of activity and vice versa.

 

Determinism is the doctrine that all things, including the will, are determined (limited) by causes. This is the converse of free will. It is otherwise known as necessitarianism. Man has power to choose between the alternatives which fate brings before him. In choosing between them he may either follow his tendencies produced by his past actions or struggle against them. The will of a man is ever free. The arguments which are advanced by determinists in saying that human will is determined are not sound and tenable; they fall to the ground.

 

Published By

THE DIVINE LIFE SOCIETY

P.O. Shivanandanagar—249 192

Distt. Tehri-Garhwal, Uttaranchal,

Himalayas, India.