Advaitha rules

[Guest guest]

The supreme is not a power and does not exist as a hierarchy. You must understand that everything that can be exists. Hence everything that can exist past, present or future is part of existance. Hence existance in the truest sense is singular unto itself. Therefore there cannot be alienation or seperation. The ultimate truth of existance is formless. To personify this existance in the first place, in my opinion, is a serious error of judgement. For to observe Krishna (the personification of Existance/God) you must believe in seperation from him.

 

To surrender the will of the individual to an abstracted belief of Existance/God ie Krishna is to further remove the internal recognition of God to the individual. God becomes greaater removed from the individual as the individual choses to deny it. Choses to believe it is seperate from himself. And of course a belief in surrender or submission entirely views the will of God as being sepeerate from the individual.

 

In fact I suppose you could say a belief in surrender to Krishna ( as seperate to the individual) is a belief in the unknown God as the truth lies outside the individual. And a belief in the singular God which encapsulates the individual is a belief in the known God- that which is eternal unto itself.

 

THE FREE WILL OF CREATION IS THE WILL OF GOD ;-)

[Guest guest]

The supreme is not a power and does not exist as a hierarchy.

..the supreme has power and he's power... the supreme is everything. And there's equality, but there's hierarchy too, i, for example, am hierarchically subordinated to krsna.. because he's supreme, i am subordinated

 

The ultimate truth of existance is formless

..the ultimate truth is all.. so there's no "less" in the all. So the ultimate truth has to be also "form"... formless in material sense, because his form is not mortal, but with transcendental form..

 

To personify this existance in the first place, in my opinion, is a serious error of judgement

..i agree... it is an error to use human parameters to judge god. So do not judge god's form (satcitananda rupa) with human prejudices

 

For to observe Krishna (the personification of Existance/God) you must believe in seperation from him.

..yes, right.. god is not separated by me because all is god, me included... but simultaneously god has to be separated because god is also relationship and love.. and to love you need two subjects.. the individual jiva and the individual god.

So god is everything... personal and impersonal, individual and omnipresent

 

if there's a prerogative... god has it, god does not miss anything... individuality is a prerogative, supremacy is a prerogative, relationship is a prerogative etc..

[Guest guest]

The supreme/god/existance is all power or not a power? I agree with you the supreme is All power. It has hierarchy at the present moment that is undeniable. However when existance/supreme fully recognises its own true nature it will have no hieracrhy- so in completion there will be no seperation between you and krishna for you and Krishan and everything else will all cease to be seperate. You will be one.

 

Ultimately you are all one now but you cannot realise it. Perhaps you cannot realise it because you are bound by form or perhaps form is a result of your inability to realise the supreme.

 

Form is alienation from the supreme. When the supreme is fully conscious and aware of itself there will be no alienation and hence no form physical or transcendental. Transcendental is just a higher form ( and hence closer to the realisation of the supreme )to the physical but is still form albeit to a different degree.

 

There will not be two or any degree of seperation. There will only be one. So can there still be relationship? Yes i believe there can. I believe the relationship will be one unto itself without seperation. It is this which will be the finished eternal cycle of God. It will be one in perpetual harmony with itself. It is something which when seperated from God is impossible to understand. However to understand it to a greater and greater degree brings one closer to God.

[Guest guest]

In a civilized debate however worthless a ponit is, we deconstruct it by logic.Not by calling the debater as fool.If pundits like you are unable to answer a fools question,then what is the use of being a pundit?

 

-if i do not study medicine i am not a doctor, if i do not study and practice spiritual consciousness, i do not develope spiritual consciousness

If an atheist asks you what is the proof of existence of spirit what answer will you give?

 

 

Many atheists live a life far better than theists

-if you mean material life, money and so on it is obviously possible... if you mean moral and inner life it is illogic.. or the theists are not real theists but cheaters

Do you mean to say that theists commit no mistakes or sins?Prisons are filled with theists.Even in innerlife and in morals many atheists have lived an exemplery life better than many theists.Atheism and theism has nothing to do with morals and ethics.Stop discriminating people on basis of religion.

 

--because we are spirit.. every intelligent person cares for himself

Prove that we are spirit.Even a fool cares for himself.

 

---my wife and your girlfriend are both nice girls... now i am attempting to kiss your girlfriend ... my wife , your girl and maybe yourself (i hope so) are not happy.. who's mad? me that i do not discriminate or you that you are discriminating? so false and true do not coexist if you want to discuss seriously...

You started the debate with Mumbai and oslo.Now you go to girlfriend and wife.Those who live in mumbai feel it to be great.Those who live in Oslo feel it to be great.Those who love their wife feel her to be great than any other women.What is the point in arguing that my wife is the best in world or mumbai is the best city in world?Nothing.Its a perfectly subjective opinion.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

However when existance/supreme fully recognises its own true nature it will have no hieracrhy- so in completion there will be no seperation between you and krishna for you and Krishan and everything else will all cease to be seperate.

--god is eternal... every god's feature is eternal. I am also eternal... so my individual existence does not stop when i get liberation. God is everything at every level of existence, not that at certain point he loses something

 

Ultimately you are all one now but you cannot realise it. Perhaps you cannot realise it because you are bound by form or perhaps form is a result of your inability to realise the supreme.

--god does not forget.. so it is not possible to discover one day that we are supreme if we are not feeling it now. So i am one, and in the one there's also separation.. so i am one and separated simultaneously. The fact that i do not feel any supremacy in my self is demonstration that i am not supreme

 

When the supreme is fully conscious and aware of itself

--supreme means "above everything"... so supreme is above ignorance.. so supreme in never unconscious or partially unconscious

 

Transcendental is just a higher form

--in the supreme there's no lower and higher .. everything is highest.. supreme means highest. So there's nothing more transcendental than god's form

 

There will only be one. So can there still be relationship? Yes i believe there can.

--yes... one means that in the one there's everything,, and separation and variety are in the everything

 

why put limits to god? god is unlimited!

[Guest guest]

If pundits like you are unable to answer a fools question,then what is the use of being a pundit?

--i am not a pandita... but i have not so much fun discussing with people who have no real intention to discuss. So be serious and talk seriously.

 

If an atheist asks you what is the proof of existence of spirit what answer will you give?

--the feeling to exist is independent from any material law.. my body is changing everyday and getting older but i am myself without any change or difference by the first moment i remember my existence. Everything increases and decreases.. is diseased.. but i am myself.. never more never less..only myself.

This feeling myself is not matter, because nothing in the matter has the same bahaviour.. so it is spirit

 

Do you mean to say that theists commit no mistakes or sins?

--you have some difficulty with terms... Theist is a greek word, its meaning is "devoted to god (theos)". So who is devoted to god is also devoted to his brothers, the heart, nature,universe and so on. So he make no sins. If he makes sins he's not a "devoted to god" but he's a neophyte or a cheater

 

Even in innerlife and in morals many atheists have lived an exemplery life

--exemplary life is external... inner life cannot be viewed... if one's atheist he does not want to know god and spirituality. Spirituality is inner life.. no spirituality, no inner life

 

Atheism and theism has nothing to do with morals and ethics.Stop discriminating people on basis of religion.

--it is not a discrimination... religion is spirituality, inner life is spirituality.. if one rejects spirituality he rejects inner life. So it is very appreciable if someone is a good citizen, he's not violent, he does some material help and so on.. but if he does not do anything for is inner life he's lost at the moment of death and he's strict to take a new body and again suffer. I do not hate anyone.. because i am not born with spiritual interests, my interests came gradually for god's mercy

 

Even a fool cares for himself.

--a fool is a fool...he can also know nothing about what's caring for himself. Most people in the world believe to be the material body and they take care for the body

 

What is the point in arguing that my wife is the best in world or mumbai is the best city in world?

--the point is that you are an hypochrite if you do not recognize the necessity of discrimination..and you are hypochrite because you are discriminating the answersif they're right or not.. if you are called fool or not etc.

 

use one logic.. not several logic to use at your pleasure when you are going to lose a debate.. respect your and mine intelligence

[Guest guest]

--i am not a pandita... but i have not so much fun discussing with people who have no real intention to discuss. So be serious and talk seriously.

How did you know that I am not serious?

 

--the feeling to exist is independent from any material law.. my body is changing everyday and getting older but i am myself without any change or difference by the first moment i remember my existence. Everything increases and decreases.. is diseased.. but i am myself.. never more never less..only myself.This feeling myself is not matter, because nothing in the matter has the same bahaviour.. so it is spirit

You beat around bush and give no answer to the question "prove the existence of spirit.."Is your feeling a proof for existence of spirit?Please answer directly "Do you have proof for existence of spirit?"

 

--you have some difficulty with terms... Theist is a greek word, its meaning is "devoted to god (theos)". So who is devoted to god is also devoted to his brothers, the heart, nature,universe and so on. So he make no sins. If he makes sins he's not a "devoted to god" but he's a neophyte or a cheater

Great.So according to you all who sin arent theists.There is nobody like that who hasnt sinned.So nobody is theist according to you.Great.

 

religion is spirituality, inner life is spirituality.. if one rejects spirituality he rejects inner life. So it is very appreciable if someone is a good citizen, he's not violent, he does some material help and so on.. but if he does not do anything for is inner life he's lost at the moment of death and he's strict to take a new body and again suffer. I do not hate anyone.. because i am not born with spiritual interests, my interests came gradually for god's mercy

Oh,spiritual master,,prove the existence of spirit.You dont seem to do that,but keep on talking about spirituality.

 

--a fool is a fool...he can also know nothing about what's caring for himself. Most people in the world believe to be the material body and they take care for the body

You dont care about your material body it seems.

 

----the point is that you are an hypochrite if you do not recognize the necessity of discrimination..and you are hypochrite because you are discriminating the answersif they're right or not.. if you are called fool or not etc.

There is a difference between mumbai and oslo.There is also a similarity between mumbai and oslo.It makes sense to accept both as similiar in some aspects and different in other aspects.It has nothing to do with foolishness and intelligence

 

[Guest guest]

How did you know that I am not serious?

--from the fact that you obstinately discuss on the subject if you are serious or not.. if you were serious you were demonstrating it by the coherence of your ideas with your behaviour. You think that all is the same.. theism and atheism, god and human, realization and unconsciousness but for you being serious or not serious is important.. if you are a-dvaita.. why discriminate? For this reason you are not serious.. and if you answer"now i am stillin dualism.." you are not serious,because you are preaching what you are not experiencing

 

You beat around bush and give no answer to the question "prove the existence of spirit.."Is your feeling a proof for existence of spirit?

--everyone's feeling is a proof of existence of spirit.. everyone's feeling is existence. Discuss with me only if you have a real will to understand the truth.. object only if you are feeling that you are not existing.. be serious, it is not a game.

 

There is nobody like that who hasnt sinned

--why are you discussing about perfection if you are feeling that perfection does not exist? are you sure that also great saints and acharyas are sinners? be serious... our discussion has some meaning only if we both believe in perfection

 

Oh,spiritual master,,prove the existence of spirit.

--i gave the proof.. you are feeling inside yourself that you are spirit.. but you are fool in believing that these subjects are games. So you play instead of trying to learn something about the absolute truth

 

You dont care about your material body it seems.

--intelligence is part of the body... care for your intelligence.. give some real answer

 

There is a difference between mumbai and oslo.There is also a similarity between mumbai and oslo

--that's my point.. difference and non difference simultaneously. So rethink to all your theories .. a-dvaita is not complete, a-dvaita does not rule (in the same way dvaita doesnot rule.. reality is dvaita and advaita simultaneously). That's your and my opinion

 

It makes sense to accept both as similiar in some aspects and different in other aspects.It has nothing to do with foolishness and intelligence

--no..it is foolishness to state that they have only identities and not differences.. and "no difference" is the advaita theory.

 

so "no difference" without simultaneous "yes difference" is foolish.. so where advaita rules?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Preaching and practicing. we have debated this countless times.No use to repeat the same old points.

 

--everyone's feeling is a proof of existence of spirit.. everyone's feeling is existence. Discuss with me only if you have a real will to understand the truth.. object only if you are feeling that you are not existing.. be serious, it is not a game.

How do you generalize your "feeling of spirit to everyone?"I dont feel any spirit in me.Everyones feeling is existence is an aristotelian concept.If you are sleeping you dont feel your existence.If you are in coma stage you dont feel your existence.So dont you exist then?

 

--why are you discussing about perfection if you are feeling that perfection does not exist? are you sure that also great saints and acharyas are sinners? be serious... our discussion has some meaning only if we both believe in perfection

You said "No theist sins,if a theist sins, he isnt a theist".Now you backtrack and drag acharyas.Do you still live by yourt statement "No theist sins,if he sins he isnt a theist?".clarify this first.

 

---i gave the proof.. you are feeling inside yourself that you are spirit.. but you are fool in believing that these subjects are games. So you play instead of trying to learn something about the absolute truth

I am not spirit.How funny.I am spirit?good joke.

 

 

--intelligence is part of the body... care for your intelligence.. give some real answer

My intelligence will take care of me.Dont worry.

 

 

--that's my point.. difference and non difference simultaneously. So rethink to all your theories .. a-dvaita is not complete, a-dvaita does not rule (in the same way dvaita doesnot rule.. reality is dvaita and advaita simultaneously). That's your and my opinion

 

One branch of science deals with duality.Eg,chemistry.Another advanced branch of science deals with complete non-duality(quantum science).school children learn chemistry and when they become intelligent learn quantum science,simple.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Preaching and practicing. we have debated this countless times.

••now we are not debating of this... why are you introducing thi socncept?

 

I dont feel any spirit in me

••do not introduce the world "spirit".... you feel that you exist and that your existing is not subjected to nature's laws. if you feel that you do not exist, no problem, let us stop to debate. Why debate if we do not exist and the debate too?

 

You said "No theist sins,if a theist sins, he isnt a theist".Now you backtrack and drag acharyas.Do you still live by yourt statement "No theist sins,if he sins he isnt a theist?".clarify this first.

••theist, religious, devotee, brahmin, spiritualist, guru, master.. are not labels. One has the right to use these names only if he's perfectly fit in that names. So a "worshipper of the personal Lord(=theist)".. is a "worshipper of the personal Lord(=theist)" if he really is perfect

 

I am not spirit.How funny

••so are you the body? are you the dead cells that are gone away from your body this morning in the shower? or the nails that you have cut? the hairs? the escrements? who are you?

 

My intelligence will take care of me.Dont worry

••carry on with this effort

 

One branch of science deals with duality.Eg,chemistry.Another advanced branch of science deals with complete non-duality(quantum science).school children learn chemistry and when they become intelligent learn quantum science,simple.

••do not be a dualist.... absolute is not dual, dvaita.. there's no real vision of the absolute that can be updated by another. The dual absolute.. is simultaneous to the non-dual absolute.. otherwise where's the ruling?

 

do not be dualist

[Guest guest]

Whats so bad about advaitha? Are they going to hell or something?

 

I dont know.But thats what all say.From christians to muslims to fellow hindus advaithis are hated by .Even atheists dont accept us as one among them.But we arent worried.

[Guest guest]

no one is hated.. do not feel yourself a hero, advait-atheists are the majority of the pseudo-religious practitioneers all over the world even if they do not call them with that name..

 

to believe and preach that krsna/vishnu is not the higher absolute is surely hellish

 

but you, if you are honest, being repeatedly defeated in your weak theories, you are surely reconsidering your religious position

 

[]

[krishnadasa 0]

hare krsna

 

You mean to say all those acharyaas did enormous amount of work just for fun or what?; if aethism is also one of the means to self realise; dont kind on these things!

 

I HAVE NOT SEEN HELL, but one can expereince here on this planet itself ifone commits cardinal sins! even to take birth in this world is like hell1 understand this

 

hari bol

 

viks

[Guest guest]

"hare krsna,You mean to say all those acharyaas did enormous amount of work just for fun or what?; if aethism is also one of the means to self realise; dont kind on these things!"

 

To think that acharyas wanted to reform a bad world is wrong.It means that acharyas werent satisfied with the way in which krishna runs the world.Krishna created atheism,theism,good,bad,evil,ugly and sins.All are his creations.He is everything,everything is him.

 

Krishna wanted to do his leela vinotham.That is why he sent all the achrayas.What can any acharya do which krishna couldnt do?Nothing.Everything was done since krishna willed it do happen.

 

He is the karmapala dadha.For all your karmas he gives the result.He is also the karma.Without his knolwedge and without his permission not a single thing can happen in the universe.Not even an atom will move.

 

When everything is him,all we have to do is to realize that everything is him and mix with it.Thats all.You dont even need to do that.He will take you to him.He knows what to do.We are just a small log being dragged in a toronado.We are not in control.We are controlled.

 

Once you realize hell and heaven are one and same,there isnt anything more which you need.

 

[Guest guest]

••do not introduce the world "spirit".... you feel that you exist and that your existing is not subjected to nature's laws. if you feel that you do not exist, no problem, let us stop to debate. Why debate if we do not exist and the debate too?

 

My existence is different from me being spiritual.I exist without feeling any inner spirit.My devotion to god is actually a love on the whole universe which is nothing but me.There isnt any speerate spirit which stands apart from this universe.The whole universe is one single entity.

 

••theist, religious, devotee, brahmin, spiritualist, guru, master.. are not labels. One has the right to use these names only if he's perfectly fit in that names. So a "worshipper of the personal Lord(=theist)".. is a "worshipper of the personal Lord(=theist)" if he really is perfect

Dont beat around the bush.Just answer this question straightly."If a theist sins,is he a theist?"

 

••so are you the body? are you the dead cells that are gone away from your body this morning in the shower? or the nails that you have cut? the hairs? the escrements? who are you?

There is nothing called as "I".It was a creation of language.There is only one entity.So I refuse any existence of the term "I".What we have done is created a convenient word to communicate with each other in this dwaidhic world.In advaitha there is no I and you.

 

**do not be dualist

 

Thats what I am trying to do

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

To think that acharyas wanted to reform a bad world is wrong.It means that acharyas werent satisfied with the way in which krishna runs the world

--no..it means that they are compassionate and they want to save us and sending us back to godhead... The prison and the free life are inside the same state under the jurisdiction of the same president... but freedom is much better

 

I exist without feeling any inner spirit

--so you are feeling that you are the body?

 

The whole universe is one single entity.

--it is clear that you are saying strange things... you are not a fake charachter that is ficticiously speaking with me... you are real

 

Just answer this question straightly.

--already done...

 

There is nothing called as "I"

--i like to speak of reality.... life is short and it is not a game

 

In advaitha there is no I and you.

---for this reason advaita is only a (very effective) theory to bring people a step beyond buddhism

 

**do not be dualist

Thats what I am trying to do

---try better .... be more honest

 

 

[Guest guest]

--no..it means that they are compassionate and they want to save us and sending us back to godhead... The prison and the free life are inside the same state under the jurisdiction of the same president... but freedom is much better

 

The vedic mindset is to treat prison and palace as one and the same.Krishna advises us to treat happiness and sorrow as one and the same.

 

I exist without feeling any inner spirit

--so you are feeling that you are the body?

I want to reach a stage where there is no "I" and "they".

 

--it is clear that you are saying strange things... you are not a fake charachter that is ficticiously speaking with me... you are real

"you" means me or my spirit?

 

Just answer this question straightly.

--already done...

News to me.

 

---for this reason advaita is only a (very effective) theory to bring people a step beyond buddhism

Advaitha views buddhism also a way of reaching god.It doesnt have any hierarchy in religions this is good,this is bad,this is partially good etc.

 

---try better .... be more honest

Prove what you say is better than what I do now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Krishna advises us to treat happiness and sorrow as one and the same.

••if one is like that he is in happiness.. vaikunta... out of the prison (your answer was out of context.. but i am gentle sometime).. so out of the prison is better ("leave all other duties... surrender to me... i will free you"

 

I want to reach a stage where there is no "I" and "they".

••impossible... life is eternal and it is not your property.. you cannot really kill yourself

 

"you" means me or my spirit?

••are you matter?

 

It doesnt have any hierarchy in religions this is good,this is bad,this is partially good etc.

••so how can advaita rule if there's no hyerarchy

 

Prove what you say is better than what I do now.

••the fact that you cannot find real objections is the proof.. when we discuss the most part of the messages are attempts of word trickery. If you were really convinced and steady in your ideas you'd have no need to do it..

 

i do not do it... i go straight to the subject

[Guest guest]

••if one is like that he is in happiness.. vaikunta... out of the prison (your answer was out of context.. but i am gentle sometime).. so out of the prison is better ("leave all other duties... surrender to me... i will free you"

Advaitha goes one step ahead and says "remove even the duty of surrendering.You will be totally free"

 

I want to reach a stage where there is no "I" and "they".

••impossible... life is eternal and it is not your property.. you cannot really kill yourself

I cannot suicide?????Forgeting the joke,do you say that hinduism doesnt tell you how to remove the "I"?

 

••are you matter?

Matter is another form of energy.Energy is another form of matter.So I am energy in matter form.

 

••so how can advaita rule if there's no hyerarchy

Every religion is only advaitha.There is only one religion.So that religion rules.Simple.

 

Prove what you say is better than what I do now.

••the fact that you cannot find real objections is the proof.. when we discuss the most part of the messages are attempts of word trickery. If you were really convinced and steady in your ideas you'd have no need to do it..

 

If I dont find objections to what you say,why am I debating with you?Two like minded people dont debate.And even word trickery is a skill.I love it.

[Guest guest]

Advaitha goes one step ahead and says "remove even the duty of surrendering.You will be totally free"

--twoproblems...:1)the world jugglery... also the removing can be called a duty. 2)there's nothing beyond krsna and surrendering to him. There's no possible demonstration that trascendental form of the lord is subordinated or originated by impersonal brahman. Divine Unity and variety have to be at the same transcendental position.. otherwise we are speaking of an entirely illogic blind faith

 

I cannot suicide?

--you can kill your dress (the body) not the self

 

Forgeting the joke,do you say that hinduism doesnt tell you how to remove the "I"?

--sanatana dharma is a real spiritual path.. not a fantasy.To remove the individual existence is unreal and even a poor prize to desire. All this efforts to disappear?

 

So I am energy in matter form.

--you are changing your body cells every 7 years approximately..but you feel to be the same individual of 7, 17, 27 years ago... so you are something different.

if you were the matter simply you did not exist..existence is eternal

 

Every religion is only advaitha.There is only one religion

--no because advaita is false because the all contains also discrimination, relationship and variety necessarily at the same level of oneness. So advaita is not a complete vision of the absolute because it does not see the dvaita aspect ot it puts it at an inferior level stating that the "upper floor" miss someting.

And that makes advaita false. The whole is the whole... not the whole minus variety. And please do not speak of manifested or unmanifested... whole means that all is manifested

 

If I dont find objections to what you say,why am I debating with you?Two like minded people dont debate.And even word trickery is a skill.I love it.

--that's the end of our discussion... i like to debate spiritual subjects but only feeling them effective and important for spiritual life makes them useful.

Your interests are poor and your trickery is too weak to use it as a training

 

take care.. i respect your self in your atheist behaviour.. if you do not make big blasphemy to god and spiritual people our dialogue is ended.. go to play with someone else

 

 

[Guest guest]

1)the world jugglery... also the removing can be called a duty.

After removing how is it a duty?

 

--you can kill your dress (the body) not the self

Body,self,me all are same.

 

--sanatana dharma is a real spiritual path.. not a fantasy.To remove the individual existence is unreal and even a poor prize to desire. All this efforts to disappear?

To reappear,not to disappear.To change forms.

 

--no because advaita is false because ...

 

Your word against shankara's...

---take care.. i respect your self in your atheist behaviour.. if you do not make big blasphemy to god and spiritual people our dialogue is ended.. go to play with someone else

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