Dear Gokul, again for you

[atanu 0]

Dear Gokul,

 

You have asked my opinion. Today, I could not meditate; thoughts continuously played in the consciousness.

 

What I write below is that consciousness only. You are very sensitive and reactive at present. So, I request you to calm your mind through your own way; through the way your Guru has taught you. And then read on. Do not read this with angry or disturbed mind.

 

Now read on.

 

The Lord is the Self of all. He is the “I” of everyone. The Self has 2 interlinked aspects: the conscience and divinity. Divinity is the pure light – Visnu, who has pervaded everyone and everything. But what is this conscience?

 

When Brahma, lusts after his own daughter, Usas or Rohini, he has guilt due to the conscience of his Self. From the guilt, which of the nature of fire, Rudra appears. Rudra is not outside. He is within the Self. Visnu is not outside, He is within the Self. Rudra is the protector of the conscience of the Self. He burns Jivas, in the fire of conscience: guilt, anger etc. and then from the pure conscience, the Self shines. Visnu shines.

 

Who is greater? It is only fools who debate. It is fools who misguide. It is Karma to get a good or a bad guru. If a Guru misguides he has to go through the fire of conscience some time or the other. Without pure conscience Visnu does not shine. And without Visnu shining, one will never know about the conscience – the Self. The burner of conscience, Rudra is thus known as Auspicious also.

 

It is also futile to know which is source and which is manifest, since what is source is manifest and what is manifest is the source.

 

The conscience and the divinity are not two different things. The conscience is divine and the divine is conscience. It is one and the same Self.

Visnu only wanted me to tell all these to you. If this knowledge becomes of any help to you then me, the Jiva, has served the Self well.

 

I am emotional towards Siva. Thus I pray: Om Nama Sivvaya. The meaning is, let the conscience be pure, let it be auspicious, so that Visnu shines in me and through me.

 

You pray: Om Nama Bhagavate Vasudevayya Nama (or something similar). Understand that the meaning is, let the purity and divinity be ever present so that my conscience is Auspicious.

 

The many Puranic stories that show Visnu praying to the Conscience and similarly Siva praying to the pervading divine light mean this. They also mean humbleness. But incomplete Gurus make one the Super God and the other a demi God. They will go through their own hell of burning conscience.

 

But, Gokul, as I have told you earlier that your innocence shines, though apparently you seem irritated and combative. Actually Hara has touched you and He loves you. You will see Hari soon.

 

If you like what I have written then you may show it to your Guru and others. But, if you do not like it, then do not react. When we talk or think about God one wrong statement or a wrong thought will torment us by becoming part of our Karma. So, please do not comment on God loosely. If you do not like something, simply ignore that. But, finally when you will realize that He is One, all are His Self, then all irritation will go.

Read on if you wish. But reading the full is not required since the essence is given above. Wish you best of Luck.

Bye,

 

Atanu

 

Hari Hara

You are Brahman. You are one. You are the Self of all. There is nothing else except Hari-Hara, the Brahman.

The disillusioned Jiva thinks you are different and some say Hari is the one and some others say Hara is the one. You smile and lovingly you call them fools.

Hara is the source and Hari is manifest. Or Hara is the manifest and Hari is the source. One precedes other in cycles. Actually He is one. Hari-Hara, together only they are Brahman. Without Hara there is no Hari and without Hari, Hara will not know about himself.

Hara is Rudra and Siva; the malevolent and auspicious, respectively. Rudra arises with anger from Brahma, the creative urge in Hara; when Brahma in his creative urge lusts after his own daughter, Rudra takes birth from Brahma himself.

 

So, what is Rudra? He is the conscience. He is the wrath borne of consciences in Hara. He destroys his own creation. But the wrath is auspicious in the result. Burned in the fire of conscience Brahma becomes pure and Auspicious Siva and the divine light Visnu- Hari bursts open. So, Hara can only be known through Hari.

 

Rig Veda tells about Hara:

‘Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.

Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.’

 

No one can overcome the conscience, which will eventually feast by burning the dross and then let the Auspicious and Diivine shine. He is self dependent and has no support of a second. Note that Rudra is self dependent. Those who proclaim that Rudra is a demi God do not know the Vedas.

 

‘To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.’

 

Rudra for His own glory takes birth in manifold colours. But through conscience He also gaurds the pure white light that is the highest step of Visnu. Rudra guards the heaven within jivas:

 

‘For the glory of thee, O Rudra, the life powers make bright thy birth into a richly manifold beauty. When that highest step -- The supreme plane of the three -- of Vishnu is founded within, thou guardest by it the secret name of the Ray cows. ‘

Then again:

‘O Will, become our inmost inmate, become Siva to us, become our deliverer and our armour of protection. Thou who art the lord of substance and who of that substance hast the divine knowledge, come towards us, give us its most luminous opulence.’

Again:

‘To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts,

The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.’

 

But, Hari is Hara’s expression the Universe. He fills all creatures, The Earths and the Heaven. Visnu fills the stations with his 3 steps:

 

‘I WILL declare the mighty deeds of Visnu, of him who measured out the earthly regions,

Who propped the highest place of congregation, thrice setting down his footstep, widely striding.’

 

Visnu knows and guards the highest plane of the Lord:

‘Visnu knowing rightly the supreme plane of this Fire, born in his vastness, guards the third (plane); when in his mouth they have poured the milk (of the cow), conscious they shine here towards his own home.’

And thus Rudra gains His strength.

‘With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Visnu.

Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands. ‘

Again:

‘Visnu, the guardian, keeps the loftiest station, upholding dear, immortal dwelling-places.

Agni knows well all these created beings. Great is the Gods' supreme and sole dominion.’

 

Visnu is the preserver and inoffensive and with his lofty work even lowers the highest name of the father:

 

‘These offerings increase his mighty manly strength: he brings both Parents down to share the genial flow. He lowers, though a son, the Father's highest name; the third is that which is high in the light of heaven.

We laud this manly power of him the Mighty One, preserver, inoffensive, bounteous and benign; His who strode, widely pacing, with three stepping forth over the realms of earth for freedom and for life.’

 

What came first? Hara or Hari? Who is greater? Fools ask this question. Hara without Hari will not be known. And Hari without Hara will not exist.

Maitrayana-Brahmaya Upanishad tells:

‘Lord of the Universe, glory to thee! Thou art the Self of All, thou art the maker of All, the enjoyer of All; thou art all life, and the lord of all pleasure and joy. Glory to thee, the tranquil, the deeply hidden, the incomprehensible, the immeasurable, without beginning and without end.'

Then it clarifies:

‘In the beginning darkness (tamas) alone was this. It was in the Highest, and, moved by the Highest, it becomes uneven. Thus it becomes obscurity (ragas). Then this obscurity, being moved, becomes uneven. Thus it becomes goodness (sattva). Then this goodness, being moved, the essence flowed forth. This is that part (or state of Self) which is entirely intelligent, reflected in man (as the sun is in different vessels of water) knowing the body (kshetragna), attested by his conceiving, willing, and believing, it is Pragapati, called Visva. His manifestations have been declared before. Now that part of him which belongs to darkness, that, O students, is he who is called Rudra. That part of him which belongs to obscurity, that, O students, is he who is called Brahma. That part of him which belongs to goodness, that, O students, is he who is called Vishnu. He being one, becomes three, becomes eight, becomes eleven, becomes twelve, becomes infinite. Because I he thus came to be, be is the Being (neut.), he moves about, having entered all beings, he has become the Lord of all beings. He is the Self within and without, yes, within and without.’

 

But Maha Kala has no beginning and end. The beginning mentioned above is beginning of a cycle.

Rig Veda again:

‘Existence, in an earlier age of Gods, from Non-existence sprang.

Existence, in the earliest age of Gods, from Non-existence sprang.

Thereafter were the regions born. This sprang from the Productive Power.

Earth sprang from the Productive Power the regions from the earth were born.

Daksa was born of Aditi, and Aditi was Daksa's Child.

For Aditi, O Daksa, she who is thy Daughter, was brought forth.

After her were the blessed Gods born sharers of immortal life.’

 

Note that Aditi is Sati, the consort of Siva and daughter of Daksha but also is mother of Daksha for the next cycle.

Hari-Hara who is Savitar is Swan, the insignia being the Sun. The origin of the Gayatri mantra is explained in Maitrayana-Brahmaya:

 

‘There are two forms of Brahman, the material (effect) and the immaterial (cause). The material is false, the immaterial is true. That which is true is Brahman, that which is Brahman is light, and that which is light is the Sun. And this Sun became the Self of that Om.’

 

‘The Savitri begins: Tat Savitur varenyam, i.e. ‘this of Savitri, to be chosen’. Here the Aditya (sun) is Savitri, and the same is to be chosen by the love® of Self, thus say the Brahma-teachers.’

‘The next foot in the Savitri: Bhargo devasya dhimahi, i.e. 'the splendour of the god we meditate on.' Here the god is Savitri, and therefore he who is called his splendour, him I meditate on.’

‘The last foot: Dhiyo yo nah prakodayat, i.e. 'who should stir up our thoughts.' Here the dhiyah are thoughts, and he should stir these up for us.’

 

‘The word bhargas:. He who is called bhargas is he who is placed in yonder Aditya (sun), or he who is the pupil in the eye. And he is so called, because his going (gati) is by rays (bhabhih); or because he parches (bhargayati) and makes the world to shrivel up. Rudra is called Bhargas, thus say the Brahma-teachers. Or bha means that he lights up these worlds; ra, that he delights these beings, ga that these creatures go to him and come from him; therefore being a bha-ra-ga, he is called Bhargas.’

 

‘Surely the Self (absorbed in Prana, breath), which is called Immorta1, is the thinker, the perceiver, the goer, the evacuator, the delighter, the doer, the speaker, the taster, the srneller, the seer, the hearer, and he touches. He is Vibhu (the pervader), who has entered into the body.' And it is said:

When the knowledge is twofold (subjective and objective), then he hears, sees, smells, tastes, and touches (something), for it is the Self that knows everything.

And the same Self is also called Isana (lord), Sambhu, Bhava, Rudra (tamasa); Pragapati (lord of creatures), Visvasrig, (creator of all), Hiranyagarbha, Satyam (truth), Prana (breath), Hamsa (ragasa); Sastri (ruler), Vishnu, Narayana (sattvika); Arka, Savitri, Dhatri (supporter), Vidhatri (creator), Samrag (king), Indra, Indu (moon).

In the beginning Brahman was all this. He was one, and infinite; infinite in the East, infinite in the South, infinite in the West, infinite in the North, above and below and everywhere infinite. East and the other regions do not exist for him, nor across, nor below, nor above. The Highest Self is not to be fixed, he is unlimited, unborn, not to be reasoned about, not to be conceived. He is like the ether (everywhere), and at the destruction of the universe, he alone is awake. Thus from that ether he wakes all this world, which consists of thought only, and by him alone is all this meditated on, and in him it is dissolved. His is that luminous form which shines in the sun, and the manifold light in the smokeless fire, and the heat which in the stomach digests the food. Thus it is said:

He who is in the fire, and he who is in the heart, and he who is in the sun, they are one and the same.’

And, Rudra he is. And Visnu he is. He is the conscience in the heart of Jiva and He is the Self. He is Hara. He will never be known apart from Hari, the divine light. Hari will not exist if Rudra does not exist.

The Maitrayana-Brahmaya again:

‘Two Brahmans have to be meditated on, the word and the non-word. By the word alone is the non-word revealed. Now there is the word Om. Moving upward by it (where all words and all what is meant by them ceases), he arrives at absorption in the non-word (Brahman).

The syllable Om is what is called the word. And its end is the silent, the soundless, fearless, sorrow less, joyful, satisfied, firm, unwavering, immortal, immovable, certain (Brahman), called Visnu.

Who has realized the Self is like a heated vessel (full of clarified butter); for as the clarified butter in the heated vessel lights up, when touched with grass and sticks, thus does this being which is called Not-breath (Atman) light up, when touched by the Pranas (the vital airs). And that which flares up, that is the manifest form of Brahman, that is the highest place of Visnu. And that is the essence of Rudra. And this, dividing his Self in endless ways, fills all these worlds.

 

He who offers the Agnihotra breaks through the net of desire. Then, cutting through bewilderment, never approving of anger, meditating on one desire (that of liberty), he breaks through the shrine of Brahman with its four nets, and proceeds thence to the ether. For having there broken through the (four) spheres of the Sun, the Moon, the Fire, and Goodness, he then, being purified himself, beholds dwelling in goodness, immovable, immortal, indestructible, firm, bearing the name of Vishnu, the highest abode, endowed with love of truth and omniscience, the self-dependent Intelligence (Brahman), standing in its own greatness.

 

It is that both the true (in the fourth condition: Turiya) and the untrue (in the three conditions: waking, dreaming, and dream less sleep) may have their desert, that the Great Self (seems to) become two, yes, that he (seems to) become two.’

 

Oh yes; the great Self is one Brahman who is the highest station of Visnu and is the soul of Rudra.

 

‘-- the Great Self (seems to) become two, yes, that he (seems to) become two.’ The sthanu Hara and swift Hari. The Conscience-Angry-Rudra-Auspicious Siva and the Divine-Narayana-Benevolent-Visnu. Hara is sthanu in the Sun and Hari is the holy rays – the swift gati. Some people who only read and learn will tell you the Lord is Rudra alone from Svetavatara Upanishad. Some others will tell you the Lord is Visnu alone from the Maitrayana-Brahmaya. Only a a few, who will know that both the Svetavatara Upanishad and the Maitrayana-Brahmaya Upanishad are His expressions only will tell you that He is Sarva -- the one and only one.

 

Thank you Ramana. Thank you Siva. Thank you Visnu.

Thank you Gokul.

 

 

Atanu

 

 

[Guest guest]

The Lord is the Self of all. He is the “I” of everyone.

•no he's the source of the I of everyone... lord exist, everyone exist

 

Who is greater? It is only fools who debate. It is fools who misguide.

•better to debate than to annihilate siva and visnu in the idea that they are not individuals but charachters created by impersonal brahman.. debat is much more respectiful

 

It is Karma to get a good or a bad guru.

•no.. it is god's mercy, this is a transcendental thing not karmic thing... bad guru is a paradox, there's not bad gurus.. there's gurus and bogus

 

It is also futile to know which is source and which is manifest, since what is source is manifest and what is manifest is the source.

•false... the source is personality, let us decide wich is the personality at the origin of everything, but brahman is emenated, not that brahman emanate siva or vishnu

 

The conscience and the divinity are not two different things. The conscience is divine and the divine is conscience. It is one and the same Self.

•and it is personal

 

The many Puranic stories that show Visnu praying to the Conscience and similarly Siva praying to the pervading divine light mean this.

•no.. they are not advaitis or mayavadi, they pray to persons

 

But incomplete Gurus make one the Super God and the other a demi God.

•a guru is meant for give informations, teachings... so he says right if he discriminates. What's the use of a music teacher if he says "play as you want, all notes "a, b, c, d, e, f, g" are the same

 

You are Brahman. You are one. You are the Self of all. There is nothing else except Hari-Hara, the Brahman.

••one and different... param brahman exists, and individual existences exist... if this is in the matter, the same is for the spirit

 

Hari-Hara, together only they are Brahman.

••no, as krsna states in gita, he's the source of brahman... do not try to kill siva and vishnu to say that they are generated by brahman... better to argue on who is supreme than to say that the supreme is impersonal brahman... that is not

 

Visnu knows and guards the highest plane of the Lord:

•vishnu IS the lord

 

What came first? Hara or Hari? Who is greater? Fools ask this question.

•one is the greater.. only you want to stop arguments to annihilate their personality.... you appear to be so peaceful but you are asuric

 

In the beginning Brahman was all this. He was one, and infinite; infinite in the East, infinite in the South, infinite in the West, infinite in the North, above and below and everywhere infinite

•there's no beginnig, everything is eternal and it is emanated by a personal god, as said in gita... better to argue on who's god than try to kill him

 

And, Rudra he is. And Visnu he is.

•yes, two separate, complete sat cit ananda persons.. with name, companions, activities

 

Oh yes; the great Self is one Brahman who is the highest station of Visnu and is the soul of Rudra.

••no brahman is not higher station... gita says that a person, god, krsna is the higher station....

 

so our gokul is a little fanatic and not so able to explain his views, but you only apparently are conciliating or bringing peace. You want to do it saying that these personalities have not a real existence, and this is blasphemy for both lovers of sri siva and sri visnu

 

 

[gokulkr 1]

thanks for exposing the truth that Vishnu is Supreme. But still i think "Atanuji" makes some point.

 

but with all humbleness i want to say that i am not fanatic. but i agree that i am short tempered.

 

But STILL I THANK ATANUJI for understanding me than the vaishnavas here.

 

So according to me "Atanuji" is a person with pure heart & hes the true "vaishnava" rather than others (in this forum).

 

Hereafter i will chat only with Atanuji, Govindramji, Raghuramanji, Madhavji & "Good Gaudiyas" in this forum.

 

I will not chat with others.

 

Thank you Atanuji for giving me peace.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namah Sivaya

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namah Venkatesaya

[atanu 0]

"••no, as krsna states in gita, he's the source of brahman... do not try to kill siva and vishnu to say that they are generated by brahman... better to argue on who is supreme than to say that the supreme is impersonal brahman... that is not"

 

Never heard that KRSNA gives birth to impersonal eternal Brahman -- the Maha Kala.

 

Atanu

 

[gokulkr 1]

<--- What came first? Hara or Hari? Who is greater? Fools ask this question.

•one is the greater.. only you want to stop arguments to annihilate their personality.... you appear to be so peaceful but you are asuric --->

 

No Atanuji is not asuric. Hes good rather than others in this forum. So dont commit mistake by telling him as asuric.

 

I think ure little fanatic.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namo Venkatesaya

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namah Shivaya

[Guest guest]

asuric is the argument, we are peacefully discussing, it is you that lose control, not others

[Guest guest]

people like you hurt me and tell that you people are peaceful.

 

Atanuji is 1000 times better than you & hes better vaishnava than you.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namah Sivaya

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namo Venkatesaya

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

So, what is Rudra? He is the conscience. He is the wrath borne of consciences in Hara. He destroys his own creation. But the wrath is auspicious in the result. Burned in the fire of conscience Brahma becomes pure and Auspicious Siva and the divine light Visnu- Hari bursts open. So, Hara can only be known through Hari.

 

Rig Veda tells about Hara:

‘Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.

Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us.’

 

 

Imaginary interpretation and totally against Vedas.

 

6.049.10 Exalt Rudra, the parent of the world, with these hmns by day; (exalt) Rudra (with them) by night; animated by the far-seeing, we invoke him, mighty, of pleasing aspect, undecaying, endowed with felicity, (the source of) prosperity.

 

1.058.03 The immortal, and resplendent Agni, the bearer of oblations, honoured by the Rudras and the Vasus the invoker of the gods, who presides over oblations and is the distributor of riches, praised by his worshippers, and admired like a chariot amongst mankind, accepts the oblations that are successively presented. [purohitah = puraskr.tah, honoured or lit. placed in front or preceding].

 

Compare the verses above. Both Agni and Rudra are called as undecaying and immortal. Some body compared this verse(6:49:10) to prove that Lord Rudra is also Bhagavan.

 

Verse 1:58:3 states that Agni is immortal. We humans are also immortal. It is not enough proof to hypothesize that Lord Rudra is Bhagava.

 

As for the explanation it is merely an individuals imagination.

 

 

No one can overcome the conscience, which will eventually feast by burning the dross and then let the Auspicious and Diivine shine. He is self dependent and has no support of a second. Note that Rudra is self dependent. Those who proclaim that Rudra is a demi God do not know the Vedas.

 

7.46.1 ‘To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.’

 

 

Now one has to consider Devi Sukta which clearly mentions that Devi makes whom she likes as Rudra as well as the 7:40:5 which also says that Lord Rudra gained HIS powers by worshipping Lord Visnu. I know you gave some twisted interpretation for this below. I will explain that as well.

 

 

Rudra for His own glory takes birth in manifold colours. But through conscience He also gaurds the pure white light that is the highest step of Visnu. Rudra guards the heaven within jivas:

 

‘For the glory of thee, O Rudra, the life powers make bright thy birth into a richly manifold beauty. When that highest step -- The supreme plane of the three -- of Vishnu is founded within, thou guardest by it the secret name of the Ray cows. ‘

 

 

5.003.03 tava shriye maruto marjayanta rudra yat te janima cAru citram |

padaM yad viSNor upamaM nidhAyi tena pAsi guhyaM nAma gonAm

 

For your glory the Maruts sweep (the firmament), when your birth, Rudra, is beautiful and wonderful; the middle step of Vis.n.u has been placed, so you cherish the mysterious name of the waters. [Your birth is beautiful and wonderful: Agni as the lightning; cherish the mysterious name of the waters: pa_si guhyam na_ma gona_m = udaka_na_m

guhyam na_ma_ni ra_ks.asi].

 

Does this verse even refer to Lord rudra. If one sees the context, it is clearly a reference to Lord Agni, being refered to as Rudra. This is what happens when one does not even see the context and does a haphazard work. This is similar to shooting your arrow first and then drawing a circle around it. This is what advaitists do to prove their point.

 

In addition there are two proofs to support my point. Maruts are Lord Rudra's sons. What are these Gods doing in Lord Rudra's birth. Read the verse below.

 

1.114.06 This praise, the sweetest of the sweet, and cause of increase (to the reciter), is addressed to Rudra, the father of the Maruts; immortal Rudra, grant us food sufficient for mortals, and bestow happiness on me, my son, and my grandson. [Rudra, the father of the Maruts: 'After their birth from Diti, under the circumstances told in the Pura_n.as (Vis.n.u Pura_n.a), they were behdl in deep affliction by S'iva and Pa_rvati as they were passing sportively along; the latter sid to the former, "If you love me, transform these lumps of flesh into boys". Mahes'a accordingly made them boys of like form, like age, and similarly accoutered, and gave them to Pa_rvati, as her sons, whence they are called the sons of Rudra.' Hence, maruts are the sons of Rudra. Another legend: Pa_rvati, hearing the lamentations of Diti, entreated S'iva to give the shapeless births, forms, telling them not to weep (ma_ rodih); another, that he actually begot them, in the form of a bull, on Pr.thivi_, the earth, as a cow].

 

The following verse indicates a story about Lord Agni and why HE is called Rudra.

 

1.072.04 Those who are to be worshipped, (the gods), inquiring between the expansive heaven and earth (for Agni), recited (hymns) dedicated to Rudra; the troop of mortal (Maruts), with (Indra), the shrer of half the oblation, knowing where Agni was hiding found him in his excellent retreat. [Dedicated to Rudra: Rudra is equated with Agni; the hymns to Agni are called Rudri_ya, for Rudra is Agni: rudra-agnih; a legend is cited: during a battle between the gods and asuras, Agni carried off the wealth which the former had concealed; detecting theft, the gods pursued the thief, and forcibly recovered their treasure; Agni wept (arodi_t) at the loss; thereafter he was called Rudra (Taittiri_ya Sam.hita_ 1.5.1.1); the text has martah, the mortal; the term, marudgan.a is added; nemadhita_ = half-sharer, fr. nema, a half; Indra is entitled to all sacrifices; all the other gods get half the share: sarve deva_h eko ardhah, Indra eka evaparo ardhah (Taittiri_ya 5.4.8.3)].

 

So all this claim that Lord Visnu being a light of Lord Rudra etc. is intelligent fabrication of people in self-denial. I am amazed how one can relate totally unrelated verses, take it out of context and combine it to form such false notions.

 

 

Then again:

‘O Will, become our inmost inmate, become Siva to us, become our deliverer and our armour of protection. Thou who art the lord of substance and who of that substance hast the divine knowledge, come towards us, give us its most luminous opulence.’

 

 

The above verse is again a reference to Lord Agni and not Lord Shiva. Here is the correct translation.

 

5.024.01-02 agne tvaM no antama uta trAtA shivo bhavA varUthyaH |

vasur agnir vasushravA achA nakSi dyumattamaM rayiM dAH |

 

Agni, who are to be adored, be ever nigh to us, our protector and benefactor; do you, who are the giver of dwellings and dispenser of food, be present with us; bestow upon us most brilliant wealth. [Yanus. 3.25, 15.48 repeate these verses; varu_thyah = varan.i_yah sam.bhajani_yah, that which is to be chosen, to be enjoyed, to be worshipped; alternative: favourable or auspicious to the family of the house, varutha meaning putra samu_ha, an assemblage of sons, or gr.ha, a house; or, endowed or inclosed with circumferences or defences, paridhibhir vr.tah, an allusion to varutha, the fender of a carriage; vasus'ravas = vya_ptannah, he by whom food is dispensed; or, renowned for wealth].

 

 

Visnu knows and guards the highest plane of the Lord:‘Visnu knowing rightly the supreme plane of this Fire, born in his vastness, guards the third (plane); when in his mouth they have poured the milk (of the cow), conscious they shine here towards his own home.’

 

 

This is again no reference to Lord Rudra's station. Rather it refers to lord Visnu's own station. Here is the correct translation of the whole Sukta.

 

Rig Veda Mandala 10 Sukta 1 AGNI

 

1. HIGH hath the Mighty risen before the dawning, and come to us with light from out the darkness.

Fair-shapen Agni with white-shining splendour hath filled at birth all human habitations.

2 Thou, being born, art Child of Earth and Heaven, parted among the plants in beauty, Agni!

The glooms of night thou, Brilliant Babe, subduest, and art come forth, loud roaring, from thy Mothers.

3 Here, being manifested, lofty Visnu, full wise, protects his own supremest station.

When they have offered in his mouth their sweet milk, to him with one accord they sing forth praises.

4 Thence bearing food the Mothers come to meet thee, with food for thee who givest food its increase.

These in their altered form again thou meetest. Thou art Invoking Priest in homes of mortals.

5 Priest of the holy rite, with car that glitters, refulgent Banner of each act of worship,

Sharinging every God through might and glory, even Agni Guest of men I summon hither.

6 So Agni stands on earth's most central station, invested in well-decorated garments.

Born, red of hue, where men pour out libations, O King, as great High Priest bring the Gods hither.

7 Over the earth and over heaven, O Agni, thou, Son, hast ever spread above thy Parents.

Come, Youthfullest! to those who long to meet thee, and hither bring the Gods, O Mighty Victor.

 

 

And thus Rudra gains His strength.

‘With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Visnu.

Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands. ‘

Again:

 

 

Please tell me how you jumped from Mandala 10 Sukta 1 to Mandala 7 Sukta 40 and tied it to fabricate your story. Anyway the previous verse you quoted refers to Lord Agni and not Lord Rudra.

 

 

Again:

‘Visnu, the guardian, keeps the loftiest station, upholding dear, immortal dwelling-places.

Agni knows well all these created beings. Great is the Gods' supreme and sole dominion.’

 

 

It is Lord Visnu who protects all creation and immortal Lokas.

 

 

Rig Veda again:

‘Existence, in an earlier age of Gods, from Non-existence sprang.

Existence, in the earliest age of Gods, from Non-existence sprang.

Thereafter were the regions born. This sprang from the Productive Power.

Earth sprang from the Productive Power the regions from the earth were born.

Daksa was born of Aditi, and Aditi was Daksa's Child.

For Aditi, O Daksa, she who is thy Daughter, was brought forth.

After her were the blessed Gods born sharers of immortal life.’

 

Note that Aditi is Sati, the consort of Siva and daughter of Daksha but also is mother of Daksha for the next cycle.

Hari-Hara who is Savitar is Swan, the insignia being the Sun.

 

 

Now you must atleast know the difference between Aditi, who is a daughter of Daksa and a wife of Kasyapa Muni, and Sati, who is a daughter of Daksa and wife of Lord Shiva.

 

They are not the same individuals. It is also true that the mother of Prajapati Daksa(Pracetas) is Aditi. Daksa is one of the Adityas.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

Proof that Visnu offers Mukti:

 

1.156.02 He who presents (offerings) to Vis.n.u, the ancient, the creator, the recent, the self-born; he who celebrates the great birth of that mighty one; he verily possessed of abundance, attains (the station) that is to be sought (by all). [s'ravobhir yujyam cidabhyasat, by food, or by fame, he attains whatsoever is to be joined with; to complete the ellipse: annairyuktah san sarvair gantavyam tat padam gacchati].

 

1.156.03 Hymners, propitiate of your own accord that ancient Vis.n.u, since you know him as the germ of sacrifice, cognizant of his greatness, celebrate his name; may we, Vis.n.u, enjoy your favour. [Propitiate of your own accord: janus.a_ pipartana = lit. please or propitiate (him) by your birth; i.e. svata eva, of yourself or spontaneously, not from any interested motive: na kenacid vara la_bha_dina_; the germ of sacrifice: r.tasya garbham, born as one with sacrifice (yajn~o vai vis.n.uh: Aitareya Bra_hman.a 1.1.2.13); verily (is) Vis.n.u; or, if r.ta keep the sense of water, then the phrase applies to Vis.n.u as the cause or creator of water: apa eva sasarja a_dau (Manu 1.8), in the beginning he created water].

 

 

1.061.07 Quickly quaffing the libations, and devouring the grateful viands (presented) at the three (daily) sacrifices which are dedicated to the creator (of the world), he, the pervadere of the universe, stole the ripe (treasures of the asuras); the vanquisher (of his foes), the hurler of the thunderbolt, encountering pierced the cloud. [vis.n.u = pervader, an epithet applied to Indra, sarvasya jagato vya_pakah. Cloud = vara_ha. Vis.n.u is the personified yajn~a; he attracted the accumulated wealth of the asuras; then, he remained concealed behind seven difficult passes, or the days of initiatory preparation for the rite. Indra crossed the seven defiles or went through the seven days of initiation and pierced the sacrifice. Taittiri_ya expands this further: Vara_ha, the stealer of what is beautiful, cherishes beyond the seven hills, the wealth of the asuras; Indra, having taken up the tufts of grass, and pierced the seven hills, slew him: vara_hoyam vamamos.ah sapta_nam girin.a_m parasta_d vittam vedyam asura_n.a_m bibharti; sa darbhapin~julam uddhr.tya, sapta girin bhitva_, tam ahanniti].

 

Somebody claimed here that Lord Visnu was born of Aditi. If we read 1:156:02, it is clear that Lord Visnu is Self-Born meaning HE takes birth of of HIS own accord. In all the above verses Lord Visnu is called as the ancient or primordial, meaning HE always existed. The verses also call HIM as the creator of the world.

 

The same verse 1:156:02 says that by worshipping Lord Vishnu, one attains that which is to be attained by all. What is that ? MUKTI.

 

No other demi-Gods can offer mukti and there is no verse that claims so.

 

Combine this with verses from Devi Sukta that claims DEVI can make anybody she wants Lord Rudra, lord BrahmA etc.

 

Rig-Veda 7:40:05 clearly says that all demi-Gods gain their power from worshipping Lord Vishnu.

 

Yajur Veda Samhita(5:5:1) clearly says that "Agni is the lowest of the deities, Visnu the highest"

 

What about Visvakarma Sukta, Purusa Sukta etc. that claims Lord narayana is the SUPREME BEING and the PURUSA.

 

It is clear that MaitrAyana Brahmana etc. contradict these Srutis and so they should be rejected.

 

The conclusion of Vedas is SUPREMACY OF LORD VISNU PERIOD.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

Rig Veda Samhita:

 

1.154.01 Earnetly I glorify the exploits of Vis.n.u, who made the three worlds; who sustained the lofty aggregate site (of the spheres); thrice traversing (the whole); who is praised by the exalted. [pa_rthiva_ni vimame raja_m.si = lit. he made the earthly regions; pr.thivi_ = three worlds: atra trayo loka_ api pr.thivi_ s'abdava_cya_; Indra and Agni are said to abide in the lower, middle and upper pr.thivi_ or world-- yad indra_gni_ avamasya_m pr.thi_vya_m madhyamasya_m paramasyam uta stha (RV. 1.108.9; Taittiri_ya Sam.hita_ 1.2.12.1); seven lower loka_s are also included in the word pr.thivi_;or, the term is limited to the three regions addressed in prayer, bhu_h bhuvar svar; who sustained the lofty: uttaram sadhastham askabha_yat: sadastha = the firmament, as the asylum of the three regions-- lokatraya_s'rayabhu_tam antariks.am; or, the seven regions above the earth; or, the highest region of all, whence there is no return; or the above of the righteous, the satya-loka; askabha_yat = nirmitava_n, created; thrice traversing: vicakrama_n.as tredha_ (idam vis.n.urvi cakrame: RV. 1.22.17); traversing in various ways in own created worlds].

1.154.02 Vis.n.u is therefore glorified, that by his prowess he is like a fearful, ravenous, and mountain-haunting wild beast, and because of that in his three paces all worlds abide. [Mountain-haunting wild beast: mr.ga or sim.ha, a lion, as applicable to Vis.n.u: one who seeks for his enemies to inflict punishment on them, and is therefore, fearful and fierce; giris.t.ha_h = he who dwells on high, or who abides in prayer and the like: mantra_diru_pa_ya_m va_ci artama_nah].

1.154.03 May acceptable vigour attend Vis.n.u, who abides in prayer, the hymned of many, the showerer (of benefits), who alone made, by three steps, this spacious and durable aggregate (of the three worlds). [Who abides in prayer: giriks.it, who dwells in speech, or who abides in high places].

1.154.04 Whose three imperishable paces, filled with ambrosia, delight (mankind) with sacred food; who verily alone upholds the three elements, and earth and heaven. [The three elements: tr.dha_tu, the aggregate of three elements, earth, water, light: pr.thivyaptejoru_pa dha_tutrayavis'is.t.am; or, the three periods of time, or the three qualities].

1.154.05 May I attain his favourite path, in which god-seeking men delight; (the path) of that wide-stepping Vis.n.u, in whose exalted station there is a (perpetual) flow of felicity; for to such a degree is he the friend (of the pious). [His favourite path: the firmament: patho anatariks.am].

1.154.06 We pary (to Vis.n.u) that you may both go to those regions where the many-pointed and wide-spreading rays (of light expand); for here the supreme station of the many-hymned, the showerer (of benefits), shines (with) great (splendour). [You both: the sacrificer and his wife. In the Yajus. VI.3 the pa_da: ta_ va_m va_stu_nyus'masi gamadhyai is varied: ya te dha_ma_nyus'masi gamadhyai, those places to which we desire your going; the hymn is addressed to the yu_pa, or post of sacrifice, while trimming it to shape; the second pa_da is retained in tact, replacing avabha_ti with avabha_ri].

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

To call anybody asuric is ignorance. I agree with you that calling Atanuji(I have all respect for him) or you as dalit etc. is Avidya on the part of the persons who called you so. Without will power no one can survive in this world. With all good intentions for you, I think you should develop this will power and TRUST in Lord Visnu(That HE is Supreme)and TRUE Vaishnavas.

 

AcAryAs like Madhva, Raghavendra etc. are no ordinary people. Their words are always according to eternal TRUTH.