The Boundaries, and Dharma

[maadhav 0]

The Boundaries, Rights, Nationalism, and Dharma

By “Maadhav”

 

I have heard an advanced Hare Krishna (HK) saying that HK’s are spiritual communists, not material communists like former USSR or China. Thus some religious groups do not want national boundaries. Some so-called world powers also do not want boundaries, meaning that they want the whole world as their nation.

 

So, the question is, is it possible to have a boundary-less world or society? Or, Is it really desirable? Below is an analytical approach to answer the questions.

 

1. The creation includes material planets and spiritual planets. The material planets have their boundaries. Each planet is different in many ways: location, size, orbit, environment, etc. The Vedic literature tells that there are many spiritual planets. These planets also are different. The devas worshipped there are different for different planets. The way of worship and the activities of the populations there are different. So, all planets – spiritual or material – have boundaries.

 

2. Now let us look at one of many planets: The Earth. Within this planet, the nature has made natural boundaries with the mountains, and the rivers. When there was no mechanical means of travel, then the societies used to live within these natural boundaries. And we humans lived almost 99.99999.. % of the life of the human race’s age like that. This living within the natural boundaries caused growth of different cultures. The Vedic culture grew in Bharat. It is very old. Islam and Xianity grew in the deserts.

 

3. Each culture has its own behavior boundaries. For example: Islam cannot stand the existence of a non-Muslim any where. Islam does not want woman to be seen out of burkha, and Xianity does not mind if women roam almost naked. Islam forbids wine, and Xians cannot live without it. Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) cannot allow cow killing, and the Xian world has produced millions of cow slaughter houuses. Xianity says we all are sinners, and Hinduism says we are not. Xianity says God is jealous, and Hinduism says God cannot be jealous. Enjoying sex, particularly in the heaven of Islam where they think there are 72 virgins is the most desired happiness for the Muslims. In contrast, Hinduism says, sex pleasure is the least desired for happiness. It says that one after sex cannot go to god or be free from the cycle of births and deaths.

 

So, because of these cultural boundaries, when the cultures touch earth other or mix due to modern high-speed travel means, and then conflicts arise. An Author, Samual Huntington, has written a book - The Clash of the Cultures - about this.

 

4. In the conflicts of cultures, Xianity has wiped out several cultures of the world. Even now they still kill other cultures, e.g. in the NE part of India. Islam sent invaders to India for 1000 years, and they all slaughtered millions of the Hindus and destroyed thousands of their Vedic temples. The Hindus did nothing like it.

 

5. Now let us look at the most intimate boundary - the body. Per Hinduism, we the humans (and every living being) are actually the souls within a body. We are not the body. The proof is that we say, "This is my body". No one ever says, "I am this body." So, our material body is our material limit around us, the souls within. Every soul tries to keep its body well functioning, so that the soul can enjoy (jiva) life using the senses of the body.

 

6. What is the best use of this human body? The different cultures have different answers for this. But on the following things, all agree.

 

a. One should not harm or miss-use the body.

b. One should keep the body strong and healthy.

c. One should not harm a friend or relative's body.

d. One should not commit suicide, nor should kill others, generally.

e. One should not take away the freedom of another to move around feely, generally.

 

Thus, we have this body boundary, and it cannot be given up. No sane person says, give up this body boundary. When strong conflicts arise due to clashes of the cultures or interests, then one wants to get the soul of the enemy out of its body boundary. As a general rule, all respect the body boundary of the self and others.

 

7. Every one wants to do minimum or no labor to keep the body in comfort. The body needs protection from the natural environmental elements and from other living beings. This caused the development of clothes and houses. Every culture developed their own styles of the clothing and houses. Now, a house has a boundary. All want to keep their house in good condition and beautiful. So, in general, all respects the house boundaries. No one wants to remove these house boundaries and live under the sky. This however is possible in some countries like India. Therefore, some Vedic religious sects really do say so. It is not possible, however, to live under the sky in extreme weather countries.

 

8. Now, when you have a house, you do not want your enemy to live next to you or near you. So, the people of same culture live in same neighborhood. Each person loves his culture, good or bad in the opinion of other. Mexico has a culture of cockfights and dogfights, and gambling, and bullfights. This is unspiritual, and no Hindu likes it. Even some Xians do not like it, but some Mexicans push to preserve this culture. "It is our cultural heritage," they say. A culture is transferred to new generations by living together at a location in a society. The first basic unit of a society is a family, and family lives in a house.

 

9. When people of a culture live in a neighborhood, then that neighborhood has a boundary. Now, this neighborhood does not want an enemy culture live next to its own neighborhood. This caused the development villages and cities of same cultures.

A number of villages and cities of a common culture trade with each other. This caused the rise of nations. Now, a nation does not want an enemy country at its border. But the people of the other cultures cannot go in space. They need to live where they are.

As the nations grow in size, their boundaries touch other nations' boundaries. This fact that the earth has limited land to live and a limited resource at certain locations only, is the cause of the conflicts when every one wants more or better land and more resources.

 

10. We came from a body boundary to nations' boundaries. As long as there is body boundary, there will be nations' boundaries. It is said that all boundaries are political. There is an ancient Vedic saying that money (gold, silver, diamonds, etc.), land, and women are the causes of conflicts.

 

a. As a general rule, one (a person, group, or nation) should not take away another's wife, but some will not honor this rule. Then conflict is inevitable. This is social boundary - one's wife, not everyone's wife.

 

b. As a general rule, a land-owner (person, group, or nation) should not expand his land boundary illegally, but some would do. Then conflict is inevitable. Every land that is owned by some one has a boundary.

 

c. As a general rule, one (person, group, or nation) should not take away another's money or wealth, but some would do. Then conflict is inevitable. The wealth has a legal boundary, whose wealth and how much. The total wealth of the world remains the same. The owners change over time. As a general rule, every one has right to increase one's wealth, and one does not want to illegally take over another's wealth. Some violate this rule, and conflict is inevitable.

 

11. By now, it should be obvious that conflicts, violent or non violent, cannot be avoided as long as we have bodies. So, if conflicts cannot be avoided, then we should know when to fight and when to not fight, and we should fight to win. Sometimes it is dharma to fight and die, than live without fighting the demoniac asura emeny.

 

12. Even if a nation has all the people of same culture, there will be conflicts within due to crimes related to illegal possessions or use of wife, wealth, resources, or land.

13. Every culture or nation has somewhat different rules for when to fight and when not to fight. All cultures or nations never stick to their own rules all the times.

 

14. Every person, or a group, or a nation, small or big, strong or weak, has the right to fight against the demoniac asuric persons or nations or ideologies.

 

15. When the existence of nations is inevitable and cannot be eliminated, the existence of nationalisms is also inevitable and cannot be eliminated. There are some rules a family lives by. Same for any nation. If one loves, one's self, family, culture, and the mother land, then one loves one's nation, and this love reflects in one's nationalism. So, every one who loves his nation is a nationalist, and most people love their nation. Thus there are American nationalists, British nationalists, Arab nationalists, Hindu nationalists, Israel nationalists, etc.

 

16. If you love sanatana dharma (Hinduism), what is wrong in loving a nation that is the cradle of Hinduism? Nothing. What is wrong in wishing and making efforts to keep that nation for the Hindus and for the friends of the Hindus? Nothing. If that nation is taken over by Islam or Xianity or any anti Hindus, then Hindus will not have a place to live like Hindus. The Jews roamed as home-country-less for at least 2-3 thousand years till recently when they re-claimed their country - Israel - back. So, my request to the Hindus and all the Vedic people is this:

 

a. Understand the value of sanatana dharma for the people of the world of this and future times.

 

b. Know dharma well and live by it.

c. Stop any malpractice of dharma.

e. Keep out of Bharat the ideologies that have invaded in Bharat, and are anti-Vedic.

f. Preach Hinduism to interested people.

g.Declare Islam illegal in India. It is not compatible with Hinduism. There is no wisdom in allowing an enemy to live in your own home.

 

i. Convince the Muslims of India to given up Islam if they want to live in India.

j. The followers of the invaded ideology should not be given any benefit of the invasions.

k. The invaded ideology has no right to hinder or disrespect our dharma practice in our own homeland.

 

If sanatana dharma is good for all, as we know it, then there is nothing wrong to secure its birthplace - Bharat - as a safe place on this earth where no one can act as an enemy to Hindus or Hinduism. Thus there is nothing wrong in the purpose of the Hindu nationalism. Hinduism is a universal dharma.

 

So, is it possible to have a boundary-less world or society?

No.

 

Is a boundary-less world really desirable?

No. Not possible.

Even if the world comes under one government, it will have many state-nations with different cultures and religions.

The wars will happen, and they will be called civil wars. So, any ideology or person that advocates non-violence as the absolute principle is not wise.

 

Krishna in Gita says when to fight.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Is a boundary-less world really desirable?

••politically not, spiritually yes

 

Krishna in Gita says when to fight.

•••when one's a real saint ksatrya like arjuna, at the service of a real saint emperor like yudistira, with the sanction of sri krsna or his representative uttama adhikari spiritual master.... otherwise it is terrorism, crime and murder and it gives more problems that the ones who is attempting to solve. Some asuras (and innocent people) go, some other asuras come, even if they call themselves hindu instead of muslims.

 

Thus there is nothing wrong in the purpose of the Hindu nationalism. Hinduism is a universal dharma.

••decide... universalist or nationalist...

[maadhav 0]

please pick a user name.

then we can talk.

 

 

[Guest guest]

if you do not want to talk i have no problems

[maadhav 0]

<< if you do not want to talk i have no problems >>

 

i have not said i do not want to talk.

the differences cannot be resolved without taling.

the need is to unite, not divide.

 

so pick a user name

and we can talk.

 

 

[Guest guest]

difference are not a problem.. let us keep them

[maadhav 0]

why are you so scared to pick a user name please?

 

are you afraid that some rationale may make you agree with my viewpoint?

 

 

[Guest guest]

a forum is based on messages, i have written a message, you have not answered and that's all.

if you are happy with this game "register and demonstrate to be a man" i have no objections

[maadhav 0]

communication becomes difficult without a name.

suppose if all were "guests" then it becomes confusing to understand who talks to whom.

 

your parents gave you an name for that reason.

the world uses it.

your bank knows your name.

so do your friends.

 

 

[subroto 0]

"Islam does not want woman to be seen out of burkha"

 

True but how come there are muslim countries where women are allowed not to wear a burkha if they please?..ofcourse some do choose to wear it out of their own free will..that is different

to name a few: Turkey, Lebanon,Morroco,Malaysia,Jordan.

 

--"and Xianity does not mind if women roam almost naked"

 

Do you have any quotes from the bible or X-tian clerics to prove this or are you just generalizing and stereotyping??

 

"i. Convince the Muslims of India to given up Islam if they want to live in India"

 

I agree with you that it was an invaded religion, and has no relation to ours whatsoever, but what if a hindu voluntarily wants to convert..then what do you propose??

[maadhav 0]

<< True but how come there are muslim countries where women are allowed not to wear a burkha if they please?..>>

 

that is good, and therefore they should give up islam formally because islam does not allow it.

 

I said << --"and Xianity does not mind if women roam almost naked" >> because that is what i see in the xian countries.

no church pastor has advised any better than that.

 

<< "i. Convince the Muslims of India to given up Islam if they want to live in India"

 

I agree with you that it was an invaded religion, and has no relation to ours whatsoever, but what if a hindu voluntarily wants to convert..then what do you propose?? >>

 

glad you coudl agree.

if a hindu voluntarily want to convert, then he or his parents or hindu society in general failed to help him realise what hinduism really is. besides there always will be some fools. they should be sent to live in pakistan.

 

why? because islam is not compatible with hinduism.

 

you cannot keep fox and chicken together and expect that chicken will survive or be happy. never teach/preach tolerance to chicken. teach/prech it to the fox.

 

 

[subroto 0]

<< True but how come there are muslim countries where women are allowed not to wear a burkha if they please?..>>

 

"--that is good, and therefore they should give up islam formally because islam does not allow it."

 

Do you know this for a fact..I have spoken to muslim women rights activists..and they say no where in the koran does it say that the woman HAS to wear a burkha..it says that a woman has to dress decently, but nothing about a burkha.

It's more of a cultural thing than a religious one.

Just like some hindus had manipulated the caste system for their benifit, these muslim clerics have manipulated islam to control other people. Thats what a lot of muslims tell me.

 

--"I said << --"and Xianity does not mind if women roam almost naked" >> because that is what i see in the xian countries.

no church pastor has advised any better than that."

 

Yes but that does not mean Xianity promotes nudity, it means that most people in the west have abandonned Xinaity and only pay lip service to it.

 

 

---"if a hindu voluntarily want to convert, then he or his parents or hindu society in general failed to help him realise what hinduism really is. besides there always will be some fools. they should be sent to live in pakistan"

 

I am not a big fan of islam myself, but that means india would become a religious country. If we have total confidence in what hinduism is about then we have nothing to fear from any other religion. The problem is that most hindus don't know hinduism....thats why they convert.

If all indians read the vedas and knew hinduism....then we would have nothing to fear from other religions..we could let the Xtian missionaries in and have total confidence tthat they would be unsuccesfull ..rather than prevent them from comming in.

 

[maadhav 0]

<< The problem is that most hindus don't know hinduism....thats why they convert. >>

 

those who convert are very poor mostly,

and fall pray of the missionaries tactics, lures.

it couses social disturbance.

 

these conversions over time do not help even those who convert.

 

the web page

http://hinduunity.org

may have more detail about conversions.

 

[Guest guest]

If these Xtian missionaies came in during the time of mahabharata or before they would not not have been able to convert anyone..because people back then studied the vedas a lot more than people nowadays do. If you look at the cities nowadays religion is on the decline..thats the sad part.

 

Subroto

[maadhav 0]

<< If these Xtian missionaies came in during the time of mahabharata or before they would not not have been able to convert anyone..because people back then studied the vedas a lot more than people nowadays do. If you look at the cities nowadays religion is on the decline..thats the sad part.

 

Subroto >>

 

in the time of mahabarat, there was no other religion than hinduism over the globe.

 

xians have come in india forcibly, not as friends.

read the history of goa.

you will see how barbaric xians were to the hindus.

 

the bible inspires xians to convert the whole world.

xians therefore, cannot stand any infidel.

therefore it is not compatible with hinduism.

hence it has no place on the devabhoomi.

 

xianity is organized. their authority is out of india, not within. hinduism is not organized (so far).

even if the xians of india stop converting hindus, still xianity has no place on the vedic land.

who know what xians will do at another oppertune time?

their authority and money is coming from out of india.

this is like a third party from outside is meddling the social and political affairs of india. this cannot be allowed. sooner or later the xians of india would have to accept back hinduism, the religion of the land and their ancestors.

 

 

[Guest guest]

at the time of mahabharata there wasn't any sign of hinduism.. all the world was vaishnava

 

do not be so simplicistic in judging others

[maadhav 0]

<< at the time of mahabharata there wasn't any sign of hinduism.. all the world was vaishnava >>

 

no.

there were worshippers of siva, durga, ganesh, and surya.

also there were advaitis. we have them since time time of brahma. if any one says no, then he/she needs to prove from what pont in time advaita started.

adi shankaracharya did not invent it.

 

 

[Guest guest]

no, no advaitis, advaita is a reaction after sri buddha's nichilism, and other devatas were worshipped mostly to have help to reach sri vishnu.. we can say that some asura had the impersonal or mayavadi conception, but it was not organized as a school and surely it was not considered dharma

 

imagine going before arjuna or yudistira to say "krsna is not god, krsna is not real, he's a projection of your unconscious mind to help you realize that you're impersonal brahman", i think that after someone had to come back home without the head

 

at bhaktivinoda thakur's time there was jail for who were saying to be god and before there were death penalty

 

advaitism as "dharmic" is a new concept, not from original sanatana dharma

[Guest guest]

Advaita was around since the Vedic times. Many of the Upanishads are Advatic and Adi Sankaracharya was just the greatest preacher of Advaita in his time (which was long after the vedic age).

 

Apparantly Advaita takes it's authority only from shruti and others like Dvaita take some from Shriti, but most from smriti, which are later texts of lesser authority.

[Guest guest]

many upanishads shows more the impersonal aspect of the absolute as a point of view to explain some truths especially to someone who is completely materialistic... so they are absolutely necessary and useful

 

but this has become a tendence, a school, an organized sect.... after sri shankaracharya for the purpose to gradually react to buddhism

 

i repeat, to say "i am god" was considered a crime until one hundred years ago

[maadhav 0]

<< "krsna is not god, krsna is not real, he's a projection of your unconscious mind to help you realize that you're impersonal brahman", >>

 

please give a quote for any advaita authority.

i do not think the above quote is form any.

 

still, true advaita (gyan yoga) does exist since the time of brahma, and even krishna mentions it. read the first verse of gita ch. 1.

 

<< at bhaktivinoda thakur's time there was jail for who were saying to be god and before there were death penalty >>

 

please quote from some books that record facts.

nothing like what you said above has happened in the vedic society. now, if the ruler is a muslim and if some one says he is god, sure he will meet death. hindu society is not such.

 

 

[Guest guest]

even krishna mentions it. read the first verse of gita ch. 1.

 

TEXT 1

 

dhrtarastra uvaca

dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre

samaveta yuyutsavah

mamakah pandavas caiva

kim akurvata sanjaya

 

SYNONYMS

dhrtarastrah--King Dhrtarastra; uvaca--said; dharma-ksetre--in the place of pilgrimage; kuru-ksetre--in the place named Kuruksetra; samavetah--assembled; yuyutsavah--desiring to fight; mamakah--my party (sons); pandavah--the sons of Pandu; ca--and; eva--certainly; kim--what; akurvata--did they do; sanjaya--O Sanjaya.

 

TRANSLATION

Dhrtarastra said: O Sanjaya, after assembling in the place of pilgrimage at Kuruksetra, what did my sons and the sons of Pandu do, being desirous to fight?

 

(where's advaita here?)

 

<< at bhaktivinoda thakur's time there was jail for who were saying to be god and before there were death penalty >>

please quote from some books that record facts.

nothing like what you said above has happened in the vedic society.

(find some bhaktivinoda takura's byography in internet, it is a wery well known lila of this pure devotee, he was a judge and he put in jail one with mystic powers claiming to be god.. this man has some mystic power and cursed thakur's daughter to take leprosy, then the "god" died for having blasphemed a vaishnava

 

the killing of some people pretending to be "god" was even in bhagavat purana chant 10.. the biography of sri krsna bhagavan

 

so advaita tendence was there, but not organized as sect until the arrive of sri shankara acharya and it was considered deviant, not sanatana dharma

 

so now we have to be all friends and help ourselves without religion distinction and so on.. but advaita or mayavadi is not in the sanatana dharma)