joker_london Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 What is the difference? Are there any? what do hare krishnas beleive in apart from the obvious? do they recognise other hindu forms of god? what about marrige between a hare krishna and hindu? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 hinduism is a name who artificially reunites many views of the spirituality .. also opposite ones, even if externally there are the same scriptures, similarity in the rites, cerimonies etc. so, beside the good rule of the tolerance, if i believe that, beyond all devatas, beyond the impersonal brahman there's, as the ultimate truth, a personal god, with name, form, personality, world, companions i will see as a blasphemy a theory who is saying that this personal god is only an illusion created by brahman, the ultimate truth, for helping ignorant people in advancing spiritually. The same with one who believes the everyone of us is god... for me it is better to be gross materialists and atheists. this is one reason why GAUDYA VAISHNAVA SAMPRADAYA (from the very beginning, not only for iskcon) and HINDUISM are not synonims why it is important to put this brand "hinduism" over everything? krsna says "leave all religions and surrender to me... " so let us surrender to god (in an authorized, vedic personality of godhead, krishna, vishnu, ramachandra, venkateshvara, narasimha etc. etc. under the guidance of a pure spiritual master and it is enough.. then we will judge if one is a religious person or not, what's the use of calling ourselves hindus or whatever? let's practice and learn spiritual science.. scholars, statistics and classificators will do their job in saying if we are A or B or C if i am a perfect materialist but i say to me or to you that i am hindu what's the use? it is not a political party, there's no need to count ourselves to know if we win the elections Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Jai Ganesh If i perform my Dharma,and someone call me a Hindu i have no problem with that In Bhagvat Gita Krishna describe many path to reach him. You do well to stick to GAUDYA VAISHNAVA SAMPRADAYA,and stop dising Hindus.You sound like, yours the only way,and in Vedic times your way was the only sadhna. I do not like many thing that goes in the name of religion,but i will not tarnish all the hindus with the same brush.I do not hold monopoly on dharma. Jai Shree Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 "If i perform my Dharma,and someone call me a Hindu i have no problem with that" ••as i said, in a sense i too have no problem, in another sense the problem is there You do well to stick to GAUDYA VAISHNAVA SAMPRADAYA,and stop dising Hindus. •••if you read better i have nothing against you or hindus You sound like, yours the only way,and in Vedic times your way was the only sadhna. •••no, you can't find this in my words... i am only saying that, right or wrong, it is useless and not exact to classify me in a religion where many people have opposite beliefs.. i am not saying different in some details.. i mean opposite. So do as you want, you are my brother, my friend, i do not care too much.... but i want to check exactly your beliefs if you want to say that me and you are practising the same religion I do not hold monopoly on dharma. •••so where's this big need to push this "hinduism" flag... let us make seriously our own duties and go back to godhead, if it will happens to do something together, to pray together, to serve together we will do it... labels are not so important "sarva dharma.... " leave all labels and surrender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Guest wrote " krsna says "leave all religions and surrender to me... " Well that also means one has to "leave" the Gaudiya sampradaya,Iskcon et al and just surrender to God. "so let us surrender to god (in an authorized, vedic personality of godhead, krishna, vishnu, ramachandra, venkateshvara, narasimha etc. etc. under the guidance of a pure spiritual master and it is enough.." Is Krsna mentioned in the vedas, if so please give me the references ? How pure is a pure spiritual master ? - 24 K ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Well that also means one has to "leave" the Gaudiya sampradaya,Iskcon et al and just surrender to God. ••in a sense you are right, if i take this as a fanaticism, as a material identification, as a simple putting a label i have to leave... to leave for find the true meaning fo gaudya sampradaya (the path of krsna chaitanya mahaprabhu) and iskcon (international society of krishna consciousness) that is :" follow krishna, vishnu, the supreme lord and surrender with no other attachement"..... thanks for your precisation Is Krsna mentioned in the vedas, if so please give me the references ? ••it is also enough to say that krishna is mentioned and he says to be the supreme in the gita.. all the authorities say that gita is word of god, pure consciousness.. so it is VEDA.. consciousness, spiritual consciousness.. How pure is a pure spiritual master ? - 24 K ! ••24000k, if he's a true spiritual master.. if he's not pure he's not a master neither gold.. maybe copper, or plastic... better to avoid him, a bogus master is cancerogen for our spiritual life. but a true master is necessary: Bhagavad-Gita (4.34): tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah ["Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth."] no need to choose a master by "camp", or "sect", or "math"... the important is that he sees the truth and he can teach it to the disciples.. otherwise no spiritual advancement even if we feel ourselves hindu, hare krishna or so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maadhav Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 << What is the difference? Are there any? what do hare krishnas beleive in apart from the obvious? do they recognise other hindu forms of god? what about marrige between a hare krishna and hindu? >> why you want to know it? are you willing to join one or the other? hinduism is dharma for all mankind. one sect of hinduis is vaishnavism. Hk's are vaishnavas, but unfortunately they think ad say they are not hindus. hindus however say HK's are hindus. in another words, both are aryans. any one can marry one. it is a personal choice, good or bad. some Hk's marry a hindu because they love the vedic culture. (some muslims marry hindu purposely to conver the hindu to muslim.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 Jai Ganesh RE ("If i perform my Dharma,and someone call me a Hindu i have no problem with that" ••as i said, in a sense i too have no problem, in another sense the problem is there) What might be the problem? Is it that some one calls you Hindu or the many paths that people follow ? RE (You do well to stick to GAUDYA VAISHNAVA SAMPRADAYA,and stop dising Hindus. •••if you read better i have nothing against you or hindus) Thank you, sorry it is me reading more to it in your post. RE (You sound like, yours the only way, and in Vedic times your way was the only sadhna. •••no, you can't find this in my words... i am only saying that, right or wrong, it is useless and not exact to classify me in a religion where many people have opposite beliefs.. i am not saying different in some details.. i mean opposite.) Your problem is, if I read correctly, you would not like to be lump together with some organization which has completely opposite practice than yours, granted nor would I be happy with that either. Happily I never viewed Hinduism as an organization or a religion, following a particular path, But a way of life,one enjoying fruit of ones Karma And be responsible for our action, there is much in common for those who follow Vedic way of life. We are all on a journey in search for happiness and ultimately meet our maker, and we are all in different stage of realization therefor we all have a different priority and outlook to life as well. We are all children of god, even in a small family it would be hard this days to find unity but we do not stop loving each other .Hindu to me is like that. RE ( So do as you want, you are my brother, my friend, I do not care too much.... but i want to check exactly your beliefs if you want to say that me and you are practising the same religion) You do know how to make someone happy and sad all at once first you call me brother and a friend and than you do not care. You and me could go to same school and yet have different result.so it should not matter if we have the same belief. RE (I do not hold monopoly on dharma. •••so where's this big need to push this "hinduism" flag... let us make seriously our own duties and go back to godhead, if it will happens to do something together, to pray together, to serve together we will do it... labels are not so important) My sentiment exactly. It is important to follow the dharma and not to hide behind any title.at the end of the day no one will help if we do not endeavor . "sarva dharma.... " leave all labels and surrender Easy said than done but keep at it eventually we will make it with the grace of god. Jai Shree Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 What might be the problem? Is it that some one calls you Hindu or the many paths that people follow ? •••oh not a big problem.. as i have said in hinduism there's religions, philosophies that are not compatible with gaudya vaishnava... if you call me hindu because you consider me a brother, i being not indian, i am very happy to be welcomed by people who knows from millenniums the thing i know from 25 years... but in a sense i am not in the same religion of some paths who i consider atheist, but they are normally accepted as hindu Your problem is, if I read correctly, you would not like to be lump together with some organization which has completely opposite practice than yours, •••not exact... practices, rites, rules are not so important in this subject.. the important thing is the core of the philosophy.. i belive that the ultimate reality is a person, sat cit ananda.. if one believes that this person is only another illusion made by the matter i am not of his religion.. i am much more close to a christian for example even if pujas, rites, vratas are more similar to other indian group or so We are all children of god, even in a small family it would be hard this days to find unity but we do not stop loving each other .Hindu to me is like that. ••ok i understand but ..... i do not need to belong to a group or to be in a statistic with you to feel that you are my brother.... and i do not know if i have the same way of you to enjoy or pay the fruits of my karma, i am a poor pratictioneer, not a guru or a saint, but i know that the guna and karma have to be used at the service of god to transform them in yoga, bhakti, and go back to a personal godhead (keeping my personality.. no merging or annihilating) as said by bhagavad gita.. this is basically my religion, so as i have no problems with japanese people but i am not agree with you if you want to say that i am also japanese, i have not at all any problem with hindus but i am not hindu if in the hindus there's comprised mayavadis and sunnyavadis You do know how to make someone happy and sad all at once first you call me brother and a friend and than you do not care. ••i mean to say that i fell myself your friend even if we are not classified in the same group "sarva dharma.... " leave all labels and surrender Easy said than done but keep at it eventually we will make it with the grace of god. •••ohhh yessss... this is to be in the same religion, the same path, the same school... we have confronted our thoughts and we know that we are agree on this important point, so what's the use to consider so important if i, because sometimes i wear a dhoti, kurta, i eat rasagullas and samosas, or i do some external acts like one from mumbay, delhi, madras, jaipur and not like one from new york, moscow, paris i am to be classified as indian/hindu and not sectarian? have i come five times to your wonderful and saint country, taking two "indians" prabhupada and my guru maharaja as masters.. only to learn to be more sectarian, nationalist and separatist than i have been before? naah!! hare krishna!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 Dear Guest I refer you to your earlier comment “so let us surrender to god (in an authorized, vedic personality of godhead, krishna, vishnu, ramachandra, venkateshvara, narasimha etc. etc” Vedic refers to followers of the vedas, not the puranas, Bhagavad Gita. My question is please give the reference to Krsna in the vedas? I refer to your quote on Gita (18.66) “sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vrja“ verse.. Can you define what you mean by surrender (saranam) as per the teachings of the Gita. How do one surrender to GOD? Please elaborate the concept of “surrender” based on the interpretation of the Gaudiya school, as you appear to be well versed in Hindu shastras. Note Hindu shastra such as the vedas , Upanishads, puranas, Bhagavad gita etc are not the sole monopoly of the Gaudiyas/Iskcon et al. Gita (4.34): tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah ["Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth."] There is no mention of inquiring etc from a “pure” spiritual master in the above verse, so why are you concocting? “Pure” and “impure” are relative dichotomies, similar to the Judeo-Abhraham coalition concept - Satan vs God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 Please elaborate the concept of “surrender” based on the interpretation of the Gaudiya school •••basically surrender is to do like arjuna did, to use our karma, our propension, our lives, the fruit of our activities at the service of the lord approaching a pure spiritual master, receiving advices for our spiritual life, following a spiritual daily personal program .. sadhana... In this way, gradually, our karma will turn in yoga, bhakti yoga and we will have gradual increasing realizations until we will see the absolute and we'll be automathically liberated from the pain of the material world. The important thing is that it is not necessary to change our activities, our varna, but to offer them or the results of them to krishna.. in this way our life will be a prayer, a jajna in itself. Gaudya vaishnava sampradaya follow these instructions in the path of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who has focused the sadhana, the bhakti, almost exclusively on chanting privately or in the public of the holy name of the lord... especially in the mahamantra : hare krishna, hare krishna, krishna krishna, hare hare, hare rama, hare rama, rama rama hare hare. Being the name of krishna non different by him, when there's harinama chanting, krsna bhagavan is there also in form, world, activities, companions Note Hindu shastra such as the vedas , Upanishads, puranas, Bhagavad gita etc are not the sole monopoly of the Gaudiyas/Iskcon et al. ••obviously.... why are you saying it to me if i have not claimed any monopoly? There is no mention of inquiring etc from a “pure” spiritual master in the above verse, so why are you concocting? •••so what is the meaning you give to the word "spiritual"?... i give the meaning "sat, cit, ananda", so if a guru is like that he has not the impurities of the material life, he's not illuded by maya, so he's pure. If a master he's not pure, what he can teach? the same illusion we are in? what's the need? “Pure” and “impure” are relative dichotomies •••if you are in the material realm there's no real purity so you have to say "it is pure relatively to this or that.. water, distilled water, gold, or whatever" ... in the spiritual world everything is pure: SAT.. pure exixstence, no interruption, no spots, no birth no death CIT..... pure consciousness, not even an atom of ignorance, no impurity ANANDA... pure bliss, not even a little pain or sorrow a master has to be at this level of existence, who teachs something the best he can do is to bring disciples at his level.. in this case a disciple wants to go back to godhead, so if the master is still in the matter, in maya, it is impossible to fulfill this desire of the disciple Satan vs God. ••yes, a demon is impure, god is pure... what's the difficulty?... all is the 16th chapter of the gita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 “In this way, gradually, our karma will turn in yoga, bhakti yoga and we will have gradual increasing realizations until we will see the absolute and we'll be automathically liberated from the pain of the material world” BG chpt 18 text 66 “sarva dharmam parityajya .. “ In the above verse Krishna has requested the abandoning off all forms of yoga - Jnana, Karma, Bhakti and surrender to Him, in the footsteps of personalities like Gajendra and Draupadi. They knew that their own self-effort to free themselves would not save them. Salvation comes from the Saviour Himself, Who is the Mean and the Goal. It does not come by the will or desire of the individual. Surrender involves the realisation and acceptance of the absolute impossibility to achieve salvation through ones own personal efforts in following the 3 yogas. It is the feeling of helplessness and unworthiness. “instructions in the path of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who has focused the sadhana, the bhakti, almost exclusively on chanting privately or in the public of the holy name of the lord... especially in the mahamantra” This is invalid and redundant in relation to Krishna’s statement “Abandon all other means (dharmam) and surrender to Me alone” Surrender does not involve the winning of God’s Grace through self-initiated means such as japa, chanting maha, mantra etc. It only means that, the subject has ceased to struggle and fight and has submitted to the redemptive Grace instead of hampering it by self- efforts at liberation. The jivatma is the Lord’s emanation and He will certainly reclaim it. The Lord loves the jivas and will reclaim it despite superficial imperfections that there may be in the form of moral imperfection, sin and demerits. The Lord is the one who initiates and consummates reconciliation, which is in fact His gain. “a master has to be at this level of existence, who teaches something the best he can do is to bring disciples at his level.. in this case a disciple wants to go back to godhead, so if the master is still in the matter, in maya, it is impossible to fulfill this desire of the disciple” Based on the above, the so-called “pure” master also suffers from a distorted perception of himself. He suffers from self-deluded thinking he is assisting in his disciple’ s liberation (going back to Godhead) and that he is assisting the Lord in His work of reclaiming the jivas. A disciple’s liberation occurs through the Lord’s Grace and not through anything that the acarya can do or does do. "yes, a demon is impure, god is pure... what's the difficulty?... all is the 16th chapter of the gita" No difficulty.. you seem to suffer from dualism. Krishna instruction is to be free from dualities (yo na dvesti na kanksati) and to be equl minded, neutral, and impartial among the "pure and "impure" (refer BG Chp VI text 9). In chapter 16, we are advised to shake off all demonic nature. This does mean predestination, for it always open to us to turn godward and achieve perfection. The Lord as Paramatma (Indweller) is in each soul and this means the hope of "going back to Godhead" is always there. Even the greatest "demon/satan/impure soul" can achieve liberation. Hari Om Tat Sat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Surrender involves the realisation and acceptance of the absolute impossibility to achieve salvation through ones own personal efforts in following the 3 yogas. It is the feeling of helplessness and unworthiness. ••yes .. in this picture there's the acceptance by arjuna that he cannot make any valid effort to change his karma, but he has simply to surrender to krishna and act with his propensities at His service so "“sarva dharmam parityajya .. “ ... surrender, evrything else is useless.. do not change your svadharma.. turn it in sanatana dharma surrendering to ME Surrender does not involve the winning of God’s Grace through self-initiated means such as japa, chanting maha, mantra etc. It only means that, the subject has ceased to struggle and fight and has submitted to the redemptive Grace instead of hampering it by self- efforts at liberation. •••right... and surrendering means and includes to accept a system,a school, a sadhana.. of course formality is not of any help.. what is your suggestion? stop acting and stay in bed waiting for grace? this is not exactly what arjuna did The jivatma is the Lord’s emanation and He will certainly reclaim it. •••he's reclaiming us trough the avatars, masters, acharyas who ask to us to put ourselves voluntarily in the path of salvation... isn't it so? The Lord is the one who initiates and consummates reconciliation, ••by itself or trough his devotees... no difference He suffers from self-deluded thinking he is assisting in his disciple’ s liberation (going back to Godhead) and that he is assisting the Lord in His work of reclaiming the jivas. •••this is the exact portrait of a bogus,a fake.. he's more in maya than the disciples A disciple’s liberation occurs through the Lord’s Grace and not through anything that the acarya can do or does do. ••yes.. lord or acharya empowered by the lord.. no difference... tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth. the self realized soul... not anyone No difficulty.. you seem to suffer from dualism. •••in this world everyone suffer from dualism... hot/cold.. birth/death... eat/starving.. sleeping/awakening.. so bhagavd gita explains "divine and demoniac" nature helping us to discriminate in the material world who can help us in achieving liberation.. then in the spiritual world we will not find any dualism.. everything is satcitananda to be equl minded, neutral, and impartial among the "pure and "impure" (refer BG Chp VI text 9). ••yes.. to be impartial and equal minded means to know that all material dualities are fruit of illusion and they are not the inner nature of the things, the absolute... this does not means that now, seeing the snow from my window, i have to get out in swimsuit.. so i agree with you but what is your practical suggestion? In chapter 16, we are advised to shake off all demonic nature. •••yes .. surrendering... sarva dharma/tad viddhi pranipatena The Lord as Paramatma (Indweller) is in each soul and this means the hope of "going back to Godhead" is always there. ••yes... but there's the need of "one who knows the truth" to help us to discover our real nature, we are dull and covered by illusion and paramatma communicate with us trough his representative,, the authentic uttama adhikari selfrealized spiritual master (remember "tad viddhi pranipatena..") If you are already in clear contact with your paramatma, you are very fortunate, please give me beneditions, but you will act as a regular "sadaka", student, pupil to show me the way.. as arjuna, as narada muni, even krsna going to the school of sandipani muni Even the greatest "demon/satan/impure soul" can achieve liberation. ••because satan/demon/impure are covers, layers from maya... so he .. following the process (or one of the processes), practice, study, surrendering he will show the urgent and authentic desire to receive the mercy... and krishna will give the mercy, he want us back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 I will not discuss any further on points that you have agreed, indicated with an “yes” or “right” remark. I said “A disciple’s liberation occurs through the Lord’s Grace and not through anything that the acarya can do or does do. You responded “yes.. lord or acharya empowered by the lord.. no difference... “ and again ”by itself or trough his devotees... no difference” What is the position of the guru in your sampradayam? Is the guru capable of liberating the disciples? Does the guru take the disciples karma? No difference? Is the “empowered acharya “equal to God/Brahman? Please provide the relevant authoritative scriptural reference to substantial your claim. “what is your suggestion? stop acting and stay in bed waiting for grace? this is not exactly what arjuna did” Please consult your “pure” spiritual master for the suggestions. Chanting, dancing and following rituals are “Bhagavad kainkaryam” or devotional service. It should not be confused with Bhakti. Bhakti culminates in the continual state of absorption in the Lord. It’s a rare state that was obtained by exceptional personalities like the Gopis of Vrndavan, who had the grace of personal contact with Lord Krsna. In latter times there have been exemplary Bhakti yogis like Mira, Surdas, Chaitanya, Yamunacarya and others. But these are exceptional characters and an average person has no chance of ever reaching their state of spiritual achievement. If this be so what recourse is there for an average person? “what is your suggestion? stop acting and stay in bed waiting for grace? this is not exactly what arjuna did” In Surrender is total resignation of oneself to God and reliance upon His Grace. Saranagati (surrender) the Grace is a descending process. It’s independent of Bhakti. The relationship is one of dependency and subjugation and the absolute confidence in the saving Grace of the Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 What is the position of the guru in your sampradayam? ••guru is a shaktiavesha avatara, acharya, an individual soul empowered by krsna to teach the achara, the right behaviour, the procedure to go back to godhead.. his teachings are non different from krsna's teaching because he's his transparent medium Is the guru capable of liberating the disciples? ••yes, not directly but through the grace of god Does the guru take the disciples karma? ••yes, he takes this responsability.. if hes pure, transparent, perfect, conscious he's not subjected to to suffer any pain from this karma because he has accepted disciples, maybe unqualified, not for his pleasure, but for krsna's pleasure and mercy No difference? Is the “empowered acharya “equal to God/Brahman? ••he's different because he's not god.. he's equal in the sense that hearing from him or hearing from god is the same.. but he is not vishnu tattva, he's subordinate to god. Please provide the relevant authoritative scriptural reference to substantial your claim. ••i have not my books with me.. if others can help i will be very glad Please consult your “pure” spiritual master for the suggestions. ••already done... but thanks for the advice (i have taken out the commas) Chanting, dancing and following rituals are “Bhagavad kainkaryam” or devotional service. It should not be confused with Bhakti. •••you can use these words in many acceptions.. in absolute you are right, but in a sense we can consider bhakti also the procedure to achieve it.. but let us be more clear if it is needed, there's no problem But these are exceptional characters and an average person has no chance of ever reaching their state of spiritual achievement. ••for this reason the spiritual master has to be not a common man but one who directly comes from the spiritual world, a gopi, a gopa.. .. shaktiavesha avatara.. discended from the spiritual world, sended and empowered by god for the purpose of preaching In Surrender is total resignation of oneself to God and reliance upon His Grace. ••yes.. that was ahat arjuna did, complete resignation and surrendering to the instruction of krishna.. acting externally as before, acting internally with bhakti, complete dedication to krsna's will and desire.. absolute and pure devotion Saranagati (surrender) the Grace is a descending process. ••yes.. everything comes from god, from his loving energy.. hara.. radhe.. through the spiritual master It’s independent of Bhakti. •••it is independent in the sense that surrendering and love for god are not caused by our efforts, but it is dependent in the sense that god sees our desire to surrender, to serve, to come back and he reciprocates. he does not force us to surrender, he wait for our desire.. in that sense we also are the cause of our surrendering The relationship is one of dependency and subjugation and the absolute confidence in the saving Grace of the Lord. ••of course and it is expressed in dedicating our life, thoughts, actions and the fruit of the actions to the lord... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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